Let's vote on Rule 12 [Archive]

kurgbe

12th December 2003, 18:27

Since rule 12 is not popular, I propose to all members of this forum to vote to see whether we keep rule 12 or not.

My personal view is that we should get rid of it asap for the following reasons:

>Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively.

1) It is not because a question cannot be answered objectively that we should not discuss it and give our personal opinion. If I trust someone on this forum for the quality of his contribution, and this person says I have discovered a new tool which is far better than what I have seen so far, I will test it myself.

2) I think that products can be compared, and are compared everyday in many consumer magazines based on a number of criteria. Some criteria are more subjective but not all. It is fair to say that there are 4 main criterias for the products we are considering in this forum:
1) image quality
2) ease of use
3) cost
4) cope with any type of DVD.

I am not an advanced expert in one click DVD backup solutions but I can tell you that IfoEdit comes far behind DVD2one as far as criteria 2) is concerned. And I can justify this easily. This information is surely valuable to new comers.

> Each and everyone has their own view about what's best in a certain area.

True. Nevertheless it is very interesting to read a well motivated view.

> The best is what works best for you!

Well.... obvious but does it help anyone? :devil:

daddy_fizz

12th December 2003, 18:46

it shouldn't even be a question whether this rule should be kept or not. if anybody with half a brain just did a search on the subject before they posted WHAT IS BETTER! WHAT IS BETTER?!!? then they could come up with their own conclusion based on statements/tests that people have done before. i personally don't like to log-in to see 5 of the 10 new threads to be about the same thing-people asking what is better. with a little effort this question can be answered without having to post a thread about it

~Fizz

KpeX

12th December 2003, 18:50

Originally posted by kurgbe
It is fair to say that there are 4 main criterias for the products we are considering in this forum:
1) image quality
2) ease of use
3) cost
4) cope with any type of DVD.

If that is really the case, then why not ask which product has the best image quality/ease/cost/copeability rather then 'which is best'. Or as daddy_fizz pointed out do a search and you can get the answers you seek to all four of those criteria ten times as fast.

Kedirekin

12th December 2003, 18:55

I commend you for starting this thread. It's a gutsy move, and I hope everyone will respond rationally.

I do however disagree, and ironically some of my reasons for wanting to keep rule 12 are exactly the same as your reasons for wanting to get rid of it. Specifically point 2 above - it's because tools can excel in different areas that no one tool can be considered best.

Besides that, rule 12 doesn't forbid discussion of the pros and cons of tools, it only forbids the inanely simplistic "what's best" posts.

jfcarbel

12th December 2003, 19:04

Maybe the suggestion appended to the rule should be that if you are going to do a "What is best" thread, then it must be a Poll.

I do not find it a problem to see what everyone else thinks is the best tool, but discussions about what defines "the best" is just too subjective. But I think Polls are okay.

Digital_child

12th December 2003, 20:34

I personally like the idea of asking this question. This gives you the ability to get multiple opinions on different applications. True indeed, like the rule states "what may be best for you may not be the best for someone else", however, it will open ideas from other users and members of this forum. I have learned so much since Ive been a member of this forum and I would have to say that the abilities I have, and the methods I use, are a conglomerate of many opinions submitted on this forum as well as trial and error. I respect this rule as a member, however I do feel that in some cases it could limit or block the transfer of ideas among members.

ddlooping

12th December 2003, 21:08

Hi all. :)

I don't think it really matters one way or another.

Everybody knows DVD Shrink is best!!:goodpost:

MackemX

12th December 2003, 21:54

just a few quotes as to why rule 12 should stay :p

'one man's meat is another man's poison'
'one man's garbage is another man's art'
'to each his own '

the 'best' answer to a 'what's best?' question depends on what subject 'best' is about

one of the most common, which is 'what is the best quality?' always brings disagreement no matter what. The simple answer to this common question is try it for yourself on your own setup, using your own eyes and your own perception of quality. There is always some else who will disagree with the next person's suggestion due to varying factors. This 'what's the best quality?' is the question that probably falls into Rule 12 no matter what and people shouldn't really answer it with a suggestion as everyone will have their own opinion. I agree a poll is OK but flaming about quality isn't for me anymore as I have grown up ;)

I simply cannot understand how people cannot make up their own mind in this field :confused:. Most if not all have trial versions or are free so they can all be tested. There is no way I would let some complete stranger tell me which program is the best quality. I would just test them all myself

on a similar note, asking that question on a larger scale is like asking 'which is the best song in the world?' and then it becomes your favourite song you will always listen to. You just wouldn't do that if you could listen to all the songs yourself and make up your own mind and even so everyone has their own favourite song ;)

So what's the major difference in asking about quality?

things like 'which is the fastest?' may still bring up some differences of opinion due to the computer's resorces. 'Which is easiest?' is another fue to the user's knowledge or 'Which produces most reliable results?' may depend on both users knowledge and Operating System setup

'which has best features?' is also debatable due to user requirements as everyone doesn't require the same content backup. Some like movie-only yet some like menu's and selective extras or some even split the DVD. Different tools therefore are better suited for those needs so again read the quotes before flaming someone else's choice

even questions like 'which is the best price?' can also be debatable due to different currencies and rebates

that's why rule 12 should stay and more forums should take note ;)

p.s. stepping down from soapbox :D

2COOL

12th December 2003, 22:20

:goodpost:
:stupid:
:stupid:
:stupid:

snidely

12th December 2003, 23:28

I can understand and empathize with both sides of this issue.

1. To see a newbie come in to the forum and post the same "What's best" post as has been posted a thousand times before is very frustrating, as usuallly these types of questions are born of sheer laziness to do even a quick search on the subject. These types of posts should be squashed quickly, if for no other reason than to force the user to learn how to use the search engine.

2. on the other side of the coin, THINGS CHANGE! That is, someone could look up info on InstantCopy (for example) and at one time that program was significantly better than the competition. If a user made a decision now based on this very old information, he could mistakenly come to the conclusion that IC is a good choice for transcoding, while the rest of us understand that its shortcomings make it one of the poorest of the current choices (I like to live dangerously, don't I? :D ).

Ok, kidding aside, the point is still that as various programs evolve, while others stand still, what was "best" a year or 6 months ago will not necessarily be the "best" any more, and if we do not allow discussions of this nature, then people will be stuck with old methods and outdated information.

As far as "opinions" are concerned, yes it is true that everyone should evaluate things for himself, but if everyone felt confident in their own abilities, then movie and equipment reviews would cease to exist. People want to know the opinions of others so that they at least can establish a base line for their own opinions, investigate the pros and cons of the product, and decide for themselves what is important to them and what is not.

In my forum (AV Science), we allow discussion of "what's best" and it is the job of the moderators to oversee the threads to make sure that things remain civil. If members get into name calling and flaming, then we close the thread, but if the exchanges contain valid debate and opinion, then we allow people to talk about the subject to their heart's content.

In the end it is not our decision to vote this rule in or out, though, and we must abide by the policy of the administrators. So whatever they decide, I will remain a member here and follow their rules. My opinion is that people should be allowed to speak their minds, as long as they don't interfere with the rights of others (bad language, name calling, etc.).

Cheers....Snidely

BTW, here is one of those "what's best" discussions that pops up over and over again at AVS - What is the best software DVD player? If we didn't alow discussion of such a topic, then real gems of programs like TheaterTek and Zoom Player would have fallen by the wayside in favor of more mainstream products like PowerDVD, WinDVD, ATI Player, NDVD, etc.

2COOL

13th December 2003, 00:04

@snidely

Originally posted by snidely
Ok, kidding aside, the point is still that as various programs evolve, while others stand still, what was "best" a year or 6 months ago will not necessarily be the "best" any more, and if we do not allow discussions of this nature, then people will be stuck with old methods and outdated information.You make it sound as if Doom9 is not the best place to get up-to-date, around-the-clock information. You should know that there are alot of concerned people here who would quickly post their pros and cons after using fresh-off-the-press programs. Sometimes, almost within 24 hours of release. Case and point, nero Recode just came out and you'll start seeing alot of posts on it before the end of the day. How fresh is that? That's what makes this forum great. Lots of information day to day. Now, these posts exist to help the new users on what they should look into and try but they really need to make an effort to search and read the threads. The codes are there, they just haven't been around here long enough to see the forum's "matrix". ;)

snidely

13th December 2003, 00:38

You make it sound as if Doom9 is not the best place to get up-to-date, around-the-clock information.

No, that is not what I meant at all. Of course Doom9 is the best place for this kind of information - Why else would I be here? :)

What I meant to say is that if a user performs a search concerning InstantCopy, for example, he will find tons of posts in the archives that would probably lead a newbie to believe that this is the best thing to come along since sliced bread. That information is OLD NEWS! And add that to the policy of not asking which program is currently "best", and then you have misinformation and/or old information being passed from one person to the other.

In my IC example, I would invite healthy, informed debate on the merits of this program vs. other transcoders, but as I interpret rule 12, this would not be allowed. I mean, I could provide rational, informed reasons why IC might not be the best choice anymore, but I would feel restricted and fear the dreaded "strike" against my account for breaking forum policy if I were to present my arguments.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the intent of rule 12?

1. Could I post a thread entitled "IC8 vs. DVDShrink 3 beta 5, which one is better?" (Note I didn't use the word best)

2. How about "Still picture comparisons - Which transcoder is best?" (I have now specified the type of comparison, so does it fall under the rule 12 umbrella?)

3. And "Comparing the various transcoders using ultra high resolution display devices - 3 men's opinions" (Is the value of such a post useless because the majority of people don't own such high end gear?)

I fully understand that the generalized "which is best" comparison is relatively meaningless, but if people are not allowed to post their opinions in this regard, then uninformed conclusions can be reached.

Would you buy a new car without reading a single review of it ANYWHERE or without at least someone saying "hey, look how nice that car rides." - be honest :)

If no one had reviewed Gigli and told you how bad it was, would you have ever made the decision to rent it just to find out how bad it really is?

The point is that discussion of what is best and what is worst is perfectly healthy, as it gives a basis for newbies and the uninformed to at least get a start, while the more experienced user can gain insights into new programs without having to actually go out and purchase them. If you read enough to pique your interest, then you will go out, buy the product, and make the final determination for yourself. In both cases, everyone benefits. I mean, after all, what is the purpose of a forum if it isn't to discuss a common area of interest TO DEATH?

ddlooping

13th December 2003, 02:46

I would tend to agree with you, snidely, but would like to add something.

The replies to "what is best..." type posts are as important as the initial query.
A thread containing mainly "I don't like this because it's crap", "this program sucks", "I compared this and that, and that is better" doesn't contribute much if anything.
However, a post containing genuine comparisons or tests, when the equipment used is described, can be both useful and interesting.
I guess it should be up to the members of these forums and the moderators, to either "feed" a thread, or ignore it and let it slowly disappear.
"Merging threads" or pointing a newbie to an existing thread can also work wonders. ;)

mpucoder

13th December 2003, 03:24

Originally posted by snidely
Would you buy a new car without reading a single review of it ANYWHERE or without at least someone saying "hey, look how nice that car rides."

Would you go to a car oriented forum and ask "what's the best car?"? You just stated the reasoning for the rule, there are plenty of product reviews here, without pointless debates over what is best, and what qualities are more important than others. That which cannot be quantified is just a matter of personal taste.

snidely

13th December 2003, 04:33

Would you go to a car oriented forum and ask "what's the best car?"?

Sure I would!

But I would do so intelligently (hopefully :) )! I would hope that such a question would evoke a ton of responses from gearheads everywhere, each telling me the virtues of their particular favorite auto and why they feel that way. Of course, "automobiles" are not the same as "one click backup solutions" in that there are many different models designed for totally different purposes, while the "one click" solutions are already narrowed down to more specific interests. Now if I joined a "most comfortable car in the ~$30,000 range " subforum, then my question should be really well recieved, as I have narrowed down the type of auto I am seeking and not just asking the dumb question, "what's the best car?"

As I said earlier, I am in full support of weeding out inane posts asking such broad questions as to make the answers impossible, but on the same token I am against filtering out people's opinions on which product is better than another, as long as they are willing to provide reasons for their opinions, and not simply say things like "I don't like this because it's crap", "this program sucks", "I compared this and that, and that is better" (like ddlooping so appropriately mentioned).

What I would personally request of the moderators and/or admins would be a clarification of rule 12 so that everyone knows the bounds of what is considered ok to ask and what isn't. Could one of the mods please answer my sample post questions that I asked a couple of posts ago?

Once again I will reiterate, THIS FORUM IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, so I fully understand that none of us are entitled to demand or vote on anything regarding forum policy. I merely request that consideration be given to my above posts and that maybe someone might rewrite rule 12 to clarify its limits and bounds.

2COOL

13th December 2003, 05:06

We shouldn't just limit ourselves to just this forum as it is very broad on talking about all "One click DVD backup solutions". There are official forums out there for these programs too. ;)

To cut down on "what best", I think someone should come up with a "One click DVD backup solutions" matrix like the Authoring program feature matrix (http://www.doom9.org/mpg/dvdauthoring.htm) done here in Doom9 and make it a sticky.

MackemX

13th December 2003, 09:30

@snidely

the answers I would have for your questions

#1, this could be asked as long as it wasn't which is better quality as that will always bring up flaming. It can still be allowed but it would have to be constantly monitored and threads asking which is the better of 2 regarding quality never really show anything posistive or at least you cannot see it between the IC/DVDSrink quality sucks posts :(. So again it depends on the subject of what the 'best' is based. Even things like a simple which has the best features post with no real info to go on would be like asking which is best between a Ford and Nissan!

#2 again, the answer to this is all down to the varying factor which is the user's perspective of what is quality. Things may also change during normal playback as personally still comparions don't give a 'true' impression of how the quality has been affected. As someone mentioned before about detailed reports about comparisions are better replies than the usual this or that sucks as these posts are tiresome

#3 again, those 3 men may have different opinions but most definitely different to the 1000's out there if they also viewed the same image on the same setup. People like different picture settings on their setups or else there wouldn't be even the simple settings like colour/brightness/contrast/sharpness on setups, never mind the more advanced settings :confused:

if true comparisions are to be made, then it would be under test conitions with everything being the same but due to different settings available within each tool and varying output sizes then it's very hard to make a good comparisobn. IC's sizing issue is an example of this as the quality suffers due to it's undersizing. Newbies who ask the normal wich is best thread and thats it can then be pointed to that thread but a sticky with all such threads would be good reference to stop these types of posts being made in the 1st place which is what rule #12 is all about, asking what's best and dupplying no information

even the better which is 'best' quality threads get differences of opinion and I must admit I was drawn into debating at the begininng but then realised no matter what I say, it will not change somebody else's opinion. This was after I looked at my 50 frame side by side analysis of Star Wars AOTC on a different setup which gave completely different results

my old Star Wars frame by frame analysis for 50-70 frames thread HERE (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46630) offered plenty of stills for comparision still showed how people can have differences of opinion even when obvious differences are apparent. This didn't take 2 minutes to come to a conclusion for myslef but since then I have involved my self very little in quality comparisions and changed my sig to show my favourite quote on this due to people's differences in opinion no matter what. I simple just quoted my sig everytime someone asked the tiresome which is best thread

...In the end it's a matter of individual perception and the level of quality delivered by the playback system...
......before you judge look at the overall cost, the amount of user input required and requirements and the quality of results.....

here are some old which is 'best' quality threads that show differences. There's more but I will leave the search engine for the people who should really use it :p
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55844
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49044

it would be better to see comparision like this review (though old). People could then go read it and this would help them make up their mind as the pics would be their for them to view on their own setup even though still comparisions are not the best way to judge playback quality :(
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/114/9

to conclude, the simple fact is that if you copied a DVD5 using all the current tools which should be exact bit for bit copies (I know they may not be but the differences would probably be undetectable to the human eye, even Superman), I can GUARANTEE that some people will still argue over which tool has the best quality :D

It's been shown on completely different tests before (A non official Pespi challenge springs to mind where they used Pepsi from the same bottle in both samples!) that even given the choice between exactly the same things, human beings will still sometimes think one is better than the other for some strange reason :p. So bearing this human flaw in mind how can you 'truely' compare something that has so many varying factors?

p.s. steps down again :)

StrawMan

13th December 2003, 14:05

Which one is the best?

The one that is fastest is obviously the best.

The one that gives the best average quality for the average movie on the average TV with the average DVD player is obviously the best.

The one that is the cheapest is obviously the best.

The one that is a perfect balance between speed and quality is obviously the best.

The one that balances between speed/quality/price is obviously the best.

The one that provides good enough quality for my particular hardware is obviously the best.

The one that provides the best quality on the latest, greatest wide-screen HD TV with the latest and greatest progressive scan DVD player is obviously the best, as long as it doesn't take too long or cost too much.

Can't you see that the answer is obvious?

MackemX

13th December 2003, 14:34

it's obvious to me but I'll keep it to myself but I will say that my 'best' is a hybrid of a few tools as I don't just use one specific one clicker as I require a little from a few apps ;)

lol, so what's the best field to judge it on and the worst?

is the order of the questions in order of importance so the best is at the top?

dragongodz

13th December 2003, 14:38

"But I would do so intelligently" snidely thats the problem though, just asking "whats the best" is not an intelligant question. if you ask "which can do this or has this feature" then you are being specific in what you want to know. the best is not the same for everyone since person A will want more features while person B will want better quality while person C will want better speed etc etc ad-infanitum.

go to a car forum and ask whats the best and the first thing you will get is "for what ?". meaning for price ? for features ? for cost ? etc etc etc. rule 12 is trying to get you to be more exact about what you want to know. thats a good thing.

IvIark

13th December 2003, 17:58

Would you go to a car oriented forum and ask "what's the best car?

You've really stacked the odds in your favour with that one haven't you, that isn't how questions are generally asked. I for one would certainly go on a car forum where I trusted the opinions of the members and say "I have x amount of money to spend, am considering cars A, B & C and I'm interested in performance over economy. What advantage will one have over the others". If the questions is posed as generally as you suggest then I agree that there are too many criteria to give a qualified answer. If it is narrowed down a bit more though, then I think that's the whole point of having these forums. How much of the Rejig thread would have been valid if people weren't allowed to give their opinions on its output compared with other packages i.e whether it is "better" in some respects?

There may be no correct answer but when people just want the opinions of more experienced members then I can't see what the problem is. Instead of arguing about it, why doesn't someone do a Sticky FAQ on what advantages each product has and point newcomers to that in future? Alternatively just tell them the truth, use IC8 and don't look back! :D

Doom9

13th December 2003, 19:06

you know, giving opinions isn't forbidden, but if you ask what is best, since opinons are like a**holes (everybody has one), you'll get 10 different answers, which is as useless as no answer. We try to encourage people to trust their own eyes and give tools a shot to make up their own mind. I for one wouldn't like others to make my decision for me and it takes a lot until I take somebody's opinion as the truth.. normally I prefer to find out on my own. We're trying to encourage a healthy deal of curiosity. You don't have to ask what is best, you can do a forum search and you'll probably get 20 answers to the question you're not supposed to ask anyway.
Thus, if you want, rule12 is an extension of rule 1, as mostly people who are not willing to spend the time to experiment and to search (and rule 1 is an anti-lazy rule). We got fed up with all the flamewars surrounding the asking of such questions, and the sheer amount. We didn't sit down to come up with some rules to screw our members, they were created in response to real problems we had. Even now, with rule12 you have to be creative and be an explorer, you don't get your meal prechewed and that's a good thing.

I for one would certainly go on a car forum where I trusted the opinions of the members and say "I have x amount of money to spend, am considering cars A, B & C and I'm interested in performance over economy. What advantage will one have over the others".You'll still get 10 different answers. As I said before, opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one. In the end, YOU must make the decision.. it is your money hence your responsability. In the end you still have to weigh opinions. And in every group of people there are a few who are unwilling to aknowledge somebody elses opinion and then you have a flamewar on your hand. We don't like flamewars so we try to stop them before they happen, and rule12 is one means to do so. And I'm happy to see that the majority of the people participating in this poll seem to agree with the management on this issue. I suspect that those who don't agree have never been in our shoes.. it is not fun to run around with a firehose because yet another "what is best" thread erupted and the whole house is on fire.

IvIark

13th December 2003, 19:42

In the end, YOU must make the decision

Yes, but in the end you must also make the decision as to which encoder to buy, which DVD writer, which video capture card etc etc etc. Like with all these things, hearing experiences helps with the decision making process. It doesn't seem to be a problem when the discussion is about whether CCE gives a better output than TMPGEnc so why is it an issue with this?

I'm playing devil's advocate because I don't have strong feelings either way but it's not as if the topic has legal implications or anything, so why don't members who feel the questions are beneath them simply ignore them?

maa

13th December 2003, 19:56

A side effect of this:

"Whats Best" is a way of passing on resposibility to another.
Having downloaded "Whats Best" and installing it - it screws up your computer.
Now who's responsible for that ?
Of course - the guy who told you "Whats Best" !!

So in an ideal world you ask a simple question and get an unanimous answer - try the suggested answer and also agree.
But in reality it doesn't work like that.

Wanting the best is not unhealthy and I don't know anyone who'd rather go with less than the best which makes this thread worthwhile again - or does it ?

Mr "Whats Best" only needs to apply a small variation in his question if he realy wants to know how others do things and as long as he searched well before hand and is sure this hasn't been covered recently he'll get a thread started which he can then evaluate.

just my 2 cents.....

2COOL

13th December 2003, 20:35

Originally posted by kurgbe
Since rule 12 is not popular, I propose to all members of this forum to vote to see whether we keep rule 12 or not.

My personal view is that we should get rid of it asap...I wanna hear from the person who started this thread, kurgbe. Lots of great feedbacks has gone by, even a post from Doom9. kurgbe, are you going to reply back on your thread on what you feel now about rule 12? or were you instigating this whole mess hoping for a flame war? Do you still personally feel that rule 12 should be abolish?

Where are you kurgbe?

snidely

13th December 2003, 21:05

You've really stacked the odds in your favour with that one haven't you, that isn't how questions are generally asked. I for one would certainly go on a car forum where I trusted the opinions of the members and say "I have x amount of money to spend, am considering cars A, B & C and I'm interested in performance over economy. What advantage will one have over the others". If the questions is posed as generally as you suggest then I agree that there are too many criteria to give a qualified answer. If it is narrowed down a bit more though, then I think that's the whole point of having these forums.

Woohoo!! Someone finally gets it! I've said the same thing (in italicised bold print) as you several times in this thread, but somehow everyone seems to miss it or ignore it.

you know, giving opinions isn't forbidden, but if you ask what is best, since opinons are like a**holes (everybody has one), you'll get 10 different answers, which is as useless as no answer.

What's wrong with 10 different answers? Who gets hurt by people offering opinions? And why do you feel the answers are useless? Out of the 10 different answers, if someone can get a 'feel' for a product, then maybe those 'useless' answers actually served a purpose, don't ya think?

You'll still get 10 different answers. As I said before, opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one. In the end, YOU must make the decision.. it is your money hence your responsability. In the end you still have to weigh opinions.

How can anyone weigh opinions if the opinions are not allowed to exist in the first place? In order to agree or disagree, the poster must be able to post an opinion, and rule 12 (as is) does its best to stifle opinions.

I suspect that those who don't agree have never been in our shoes..

Well, I disagree and I am and have been in your shoes (well, as moderator, not administrator) for about 4 years now, so my perspective comes from actual personal experience, not theoretical hypothesis. We at AV Science HTPC forum have dealt with issues such as these forever, and it has very seldom been a problem, but then again, a good portion of our members are industry professionals, so they conduct themselves properly for the most part.

snidely

13th December 2003, 21:13

Yes, but in the end you must also make the decision as to which encoder to buy, which DVD writer, which video capture card etc etc etc. Like with all these things, hearing experiences helps with the decision making process.

I missed this the last time...correct again!

MackemX

14th December 2003, 00:19

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66389
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66148
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66030
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65371

just some examples of threads that rule #12 may apply to

if someone asks which is 'best'? but then gives more details then it probably will be answered by someone. Though some posts I read obviously show the user hasn't even bothered doing any research at all themselves :rolleyes: and all these will get is the read rule #12 please ;)

@snidely
an old post of yours which says it all from HERE (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63191#post385894) ;). You say go into it with an open mind so should they really be asking which is best before testing for themselves?, or should they test and get an opinion then discuss findings after? I think the latter is better just like you did in that post but even that will always lead to differences of opinions no matter what :(

Final message - Do the comparisons for yourself! Certainly don't take my word for it. Just go into it with an open mind and without the prejudices that may affect your decisions. Remember, in the end it is you that will be watching these movies, and you don't need to defend your likes and dislikes to anyone.
so I repeat the 'best' advice to anyone wanting to know which gives the 'best' quality is to tell them to test themselves as everyone will name all the tools saying they are the best and just end up disagreeing. I'm only talking about the best quality threads and not other best questions

snidely

14th December 2003, 00:57

Thank you, Mack'emX! You have demonstrated my point well for me! If you were to quote the entire post, you would see that I handed out a LOT of opinions first, based on personal experience, qualifying the observations and the methodology, and then as a FINAL piece of advice I gave the usual disclaimer "Check it out for yourself on your own equipment, blah, blah, blah". I also feel that by offering these opinions I contributed to the knowledge base of this forum, that people could benefit from my observations and comparisons, and at least provide food for thought to others who might be interested. If I were to follow rule 12 in the strictest sense, then I should already be banned from this forum for that post alone! :rolleyes:

MackemX

14th December 2003, 01:37

@snidely, I don't know what you mean't by your last post but I'm confused as to which way to interpret it

you mention if I'd quoted the whole post, yet I linked to it so people could read it as rhe whole post is too large to quote. I only took that part as I agree with it like I mention in my post above. My point being that people should at least try to make up their mind first before asking to be spoon fed which some seem to require :rolleyes:

whatever makes you think you would be banned for that post? :confused:

Rule 12 states not to ask what is best. That doesn't stop you saying something is the best and giving your reasons why by sharing test results. If I came along and posted saying DVDShrink 'rocks' (2 words) then I would probably be laughed at for sharing my valuable experience

rule 12 has allowances regarding what's best and you just have to be aware of them. You can still discuss what is best so there's absolutely nothing wrong with your post

Rule#12
Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively. Each and everyone has their own view about what's best in a certain area. The best is what works best for you!

If someone did a decent and fair comparision of all the transcoders tomorrow and posted it then that would be great. Although it may get some disageement, it will also bring up some very good discussion rather than the tiring 'sucks' and 'rocks' comments. Some people who have done comparisions just don't see the point anymore due to differences of opinion (myself included) as no matter what you will always get disagreement :(

snidely

14th December 2003, 01:55

Ok, thanks, MackemX. I think we are really on the same page here now. By my interpretation of rule 12, I figured that posting opinions regarding which is better would be frowned upon as much as asking which is better, but based on your comments, I would now assume that it is ok to post opinions and comparisons all that I want as long as I have some sort of basis for my conclusions, right?

At this point I have said all that I feel needed to be said, so as Mack'em has heard me say before "There's no sense flogging a dead horse." :p

Thanks for listening,

Cheers,

Bob

MackemX

14th December 2003, 10:52

lol, the horse was dead when this thread was started :p

what's puzzling is that the rule looks simple enough to me, ask is ask not tell :), so do not ask but you can sure as hell tell (obviously not the usual 'rocks' crap). I would post my results with no fear of getting striked as I'm sure others would be interested in reading it and commenting on it. It may even start a mass test where everyone starts comparing results just as a few threads have evolved into on this forum and make interesting reads

@mrbass, how about changing the top sticky to, "The 'Best' of Everything in this thread", people would then read about the rule 12 at the same time thinking they were going to see the best list ;). If such comparision threads do come about them maybe they can be added to that thread also

This is one of the reasons this forum is here, a place to share your knowledge and experience so others can benefit from it. It's the what's best threads that are stupid after you have shared your efforts, when the answer is sometimes on the first page or only a search away but the user is just too lazy to do some research

p.s. there isn't a ' in my name ;)

waldok

17th December 2003, 13:47

..what's best ?

(Ouch ! not the head !)

:p :p :p

calinb

18th December 2003, 01:03

I agree that "what is best" threads are sometimes littered with flamewars and pretentious crap. But I also realize that it's a way to troll for personal experiences and free discussion--the upsides and the downsides. No single user has experienced all the upsides and all the downsides to things as complex as much of the hardware and software of interest here. Sometimes the feedback is unexpected, yet informative.

But use the search button first, Skippy! As implied by other posts in this thread, rule 1/1a is probably sufficient to preclude most of the lame "what's best" threads. I suggest that rule 12 is redundant.

pepipocpoc

19th December 2003, 00:21

Hm :sly:

Sorry I didn't read ALL, but am I wrong if I feel the more "junior" one is, the more one want to get rid of rule 12, the more one want the quick-fast-speedy way? The more "senior" one is, the more one knows the virtues of circumspection. Isn't it, you ancestors ;) ?

IvIark

19th December 2003, 14:39

Yes you're wrong. I've been working in digital video creation for many years and with writable DVD since they became commercially available. I just don't see the point in petty blanket bans on information that could be useful for newbies.

mpucoder

19th December 2003, 15:36

No one has banned information.

I don't know why a simple sentence gets so misunderstood. Do not ASK what's best. You certainly can post your experiences and observations. But the question itself does not lead to a quality thread. In fact, besides usually ending in flames, these threads decrease the usefulness of the search function.

pepipocpoc

19th December 2003, 15:41

@IvIark
I don't assimilate "junior" to "newbie". Nevertheless, I sure can be wrong.

Today's saying :
the more I know, ... :eek: ... the more I know :D .

PS
Can we vote twice :devil: ?

IvIark

19th December 2003, 16:30

mpucoder wrote: No one has banned information.

No just questions requesting information that are more likely to come from the people that need the most help. Serioualy how much of an issue do you take with more experienced people asking if CCE is a better quality encoder than TMPGEnc? I'd suggest that you and most other people find no problem with that question and happily give your opinion, I just can't see what the difference is.

pepipocpoc wrote: I don't assimilate "junior" to "newbie". Nevertheless, I sure can be wrong.
It doesn't matter what you assimilate. Rankings based on the number of posts in a forum and level of experience aren't necessarily directly proportional.

Mark

pepipocpoc

19th December 2003, 16:47

Of course! But there sure can be a link between the number of posts and the ability to search and read...

Doom9

19th December 2003, 18:18

You have to use the terms "junior" and "senior" in conjunction with having been around and carry some operational responsability. It takes spending a couple of evenings putting water on flamewars to make an impression on you.

And many people here haven't even been around prior to the establishment of rule12.. so how can you possibly judge if it would better without it? All the rules have been made in reaction to something that went wrong, but no matter how many times I repeat that, there are always people who are unwilling to understand that simple fact.

Nobody has ever been given a strike for reporting his impressions / opinions on a tool as long as the post was not in violation of any of our other rules.

IvIark

19th December 2003, 21:10

What makes you think I haven't been around prior to the establishment of rule 12? The date that I decided to sign up so I can respond to threads bears no resemblance whatsoever to when I started using this forum.

Anyway, people can always use the www.dvdrhelp.com forums if they don't want to be looked down on I suppose. Newbies are expected to use the search functions there too, but at least they're not prevented from asking fundamental questions when they want the advice of experienced users.

Mark

MackemX

19th December 2003, 21:43

I did write a post earlier but forgot to post it, and most of what I wrote has now been said so I won't bother posting mine

I just can't understand all the fuss anyway as people are talking rule #12 far too seriously :p

pepipocpoc last post is a very good point :D

the bottom line is that rule #12 will hopefully stop people posting lazy posts asking to be spoon fed or asking for their bottom to be wiped when the answer is only a few threads away

@IvIark, you mention dvdrhelp and not being looked down upon, do you want me to link to some looking down posts?. It's a great forum and I often post there but sometimes people can be annoying when they start newbie bashing ;)

my doubts are beginning to grow ;)

the 'best' question you could ask is "what's the 'best' thread in this forum?" :D

p.s. please don't strike me as I've read over 10,000 posts and I'm still undecided so I thought I'd ask for help

IvIark

19th December 2003, 22:09

@IvIark, you mention dvdrhelp and not being looked down upon, do you want me to link to some looking down posts?. It's a great forum and I often post there but sometimes people can be annoying when they start newbie bashing

No not really. I could point you towards a few posts on Doom9 where some of the members who in this thread seem to look down on "what's best" questions about one-click backup solutions, seem quite happy to answer questions on whether CCE is better than TMPGEnc, or whether AVISynth is better than VirtualDub, or one capture card is better than another, or even if a DVD Stripper/Menu Edit combo is better than everything else on the whole planet for removing titles. All these things are also completely open to interpretation and yet somehow more acceptable.

The point is that although I'm sure there are posts you can point me towards, it's pretty irrelevant. Yes you'll find posts saying "have you used the search funtion", but there is no general rule banning the questions and so people who have used the search funtion but still feel they need help don't have to put up with muscle-flexing because they'll be people who are willing to help.

Mark

2COOL

19th December 2003, 22:19

@IvIark

Originally posted by IvIark
I could point you towards a few posts on Doom9 where some of the members who in this thread seem to look down on "what's best" questions about one-click backup solutions, seem quite happy to answer questions on whether CCE is better than TMPGEnc, or whether AVISynth is better than VirtualDub, or one capture card is better than another, or even if a DVD Stripper/Menu Edit combo is better than everything else on the whole planet for removing titles. All these things are also completely open to interpretation and yet somehow more acceptable.Asking if X is better than Y is very different than "What's the best". Here's a post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=386647#post386647) from Doom9 again on this matter.

IvIark

19th December 2003, 22:24

Asking if X is better than Y is very different than "What's the best". Here's a post from Doom9 again on this matter.

Yes I agree with you entirely, that's the very point I made. Look at the first post on page 2 here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66654&perpage=20&pagenumber=2)

MackemX

19th December 2003, 22:28

Originally posted by IvIark
The point is that although I'm sure there are posts you can point me towards, it's pretty irrelevant. Yes you'll find posts saying "have you used the search funtion", but there is no general rule banning the questions and so people who have used the search funtion but still feel they need help don't have to put up with muscle-flexing because they'll be people who are willing to help.

Mark my point is you can spot if they have used the search button or read the rules just by what they post ;)

on most occasions people will actually say they have searched when they have as frustration get's the better of them and then they will often get a reply

it's the usual lazy posts that the rule is trying to eliminate but you just wanna put all the 'whats best' questions into one group which is far from it ;)

basically you are just making a mountain out of a mole hill and all the best to you

no matter what subject is asked about, you will always get someone offering their opinion and this often leads to disagreements and childish flaming and not sensible debates as to which is best, though there have been a few good threads when the 'sucks' and 'rocks' posters don't add their informative opinions with the one word ;)

the bottom line is nothing is 'best' as everyone has different opinions and requirements. The art is deciding yourself what's best for you and the old lazy popular favourite question of 'what produces the best quality?' and no other info can simple be answered with 'try it yourself as you should really make your own mind up as there are trials available'. This is what I now reply as do a few others as it's 'best' the user does decide about the quality issue for themselves don't you agree?. So isn't this the 'best' answer?

is this what you call 'looking down upon'?

if they say they have tried all the trials and can't make up their mind then I would help by offering some advice on how they can compare for themselves etc