Let's vote on Rule 12

[snidely]

Mackem, the point is that we have no need to kick him in the nuts just for asking a newbie question, regardless of how the question gets addressed. ;)

And if you continue reading, several people have offered their opinions, along with reasons for them, and then minor scuffles even ensue, but once again, hardly anything I would call a flamefest. I even learned something new about a couple of features in PowerDVD, a program which I abandoned a long time ago

I understand the problem that exists here, but censorship is not the answer. It only serves to sweep it under the rug and at the same time alienate newbies.

Gee, I was willing to just let this issue die a week ago, but I couldn't just leave IvIark to the wolves. :eek:

[IvIark]

no matter what subject is asked about, you will always get someone offering their opinion and this often leads to disagreements and childish flaming and not sensible debates as to which is best

Welcome to internet forums! As has been said before, everyone has an opinion, it's then up to the newbie to separate the wheat from the chaff as he sees fit.

The art is deciding yourself what's best for you

Yes we've already established that, and what encoder, or DVD writer is best for you etc etc. That doesn't mean that asking for considered opinions is somehow superfluous.

This is what I now reply as do a few others as it's 'best' the user does decide about the quality issue for themselves don't you agree?. So isn't this the 'best' answer?

No, the best answer is to say exactly what is asked of you. If I was asked then I'd say what my opinion was and for what reasons. If my opinion doesn't match up with other peoples then that's just too bad. No one's asking for you to answer the $64000 question, just say what you think and I for one will always be happy to do that.

Mark

[IvIark]

I posted this on the 1st page but I don't see it becoming reality in the near future.

I agree with you 100%, that would stop this thread dead in its tracks.

Mark

[IvIark]

Gee, I was willing to just let this issue die a week ago, but I couldn't just leave IvIark to the wolves.

:p Me too and then someone with 96 posts starts again with a comment considerably more boring that being asked "what's best".

Mark

[MackemX]

I guess you two still don't get it or just enjoy flogging the dead horse :p

what is wrong with telling a newbie to go search or try it for themselves when they post a less than informative 'what's best' thread?

I'd rather see less of these threads personally as it just shows how lazy some people are when the answer is a few threads down

even a sticky wouldn't stop this thread dead in it's tracks as people will still post 'what's best' regardless and instead of pointing them to rule #12

people are sometimes just too lazy and instead of quoting rule#12 you would just end up pointing the lazy person to the top thread called 'THE BEST OF EVERYTHING' in the forum instead

[IvIark]

You could be right, maybe I just don't get it. You see I'm more than happy to simply help people even if that only means pointing them in the right direction to where the topic has been covered before. I find that gives a much greater sense of well-being than finding excuses not to - maybe your time is more valuable than mine, I just don't know.

Mark

[snidely]

Yeah, me too. I guess I'm just really dense. Or maybe its just because us old geezers (I'm getting ready to turn 50 years) get really ornery when we don't have that can of Ensure before sipping lunch through a straw.

I own a dry cleaning/laudromat business, and just today a lady walked up to me and asked "Which laudry soap is the best?" I replied, "You stupid bitch! Can't you read?" and I pointed her to a sign on the wall that said, "Don't ask us which soap is best. Cleanliness is a personal matter and only you can decide which soap works best for you. If you ask such a question in here, after three times you will be thrown out on your butt." Well, needless to say, after that I had made a friend for life, as well as gained a happy customer.

For the second time....I give up!

[Doom9]

A few selected examples (you can even find them on this very board) are hardly representative. It is your right to disagree but I both have the numbers, and the experience on my side.

I realize we set the bar pretty high for newcomers but that derives directly from my 4+ years of forum experience in this very area. This is clearly by far the best community I have been and am a member of, and I'm 110% convinced that this is because we set the bar so high. Every now and then I'm confronted with a "you just lost a potential member due to your rules, signup procedure, etc.". But then again, why is there an unusual amount of knowledgeable people on this board? There must be a reason, and when it comes to my person and a few others I know rather well that reason is because we do have all those rules and regulations (that nobody enjoys enforcing except in very few extreme cases) to encourage people to become active, to learn to help themselves, upon which they will be able to make a useful contribution to this community.

Many of those knowledgeable members have also once upon a time been newbies, and yet have managed to become knowledgeable in a climate you're trying very hard to make look like extremely hostile to outsiders. Heck, this community even turned out an amazing amount of useful tools, often leading in their sector. So, we might have the strictest ruleset, but common logic would lead you to deduce that this and the amount of knowledge are in a way connected. In school, you can also not ask your teacher for the solutions to your homework, you have to make an effort on your own, and our so hated rules try to achieve the same thing. A community cannot work without a ruleset, and while there are other boards that aren't as strict, I'd rather be here because I think in the end we're more productive.

[MackemX]

here's a nice example :p

what's the 'best' forum?, roflmao :D

@snidely, if you told the girl about the sign (I don't know where you got the stupid bitch bit from :confused:. ) then maybe she will then add she is allergic to certain detergents or cannot afford the more expensive ones or she simply doesn't like the smell. I could list more examples of what she could say but I guess most will see what I'm getting at :p I mean, there's quite a few soaps you can buy anyway but why doesn't she say that in the first place. I would! and most sensible people would too as I know I'd get my answer a lot quicker by limiting the responses I can get by supplying a little info

if you don't point her to the sign and get her to help you to help her then you would just end up asking her numerous questions instead until you eventually find one that suited her!, but how many questions could it take? I'm sure she wouldn't ask the basic question again if you did point her to the sign as she would soon see the reason why it's there in the first place. Basically to cut all the BS before she gets her final answer. This is just the same as the car thing earlier but on a smaller scale

look at it from a newbies point of view. Which would you prefer as a newbie? Answers related to your requirements you posted or reading posts that say this and that sucks or rocks without any real facts to show why?

let's look at the rule again

telling people not to post 'what's best?' is that there are often so many answers that could be given and it's a matter of individual opinion and therefore some answers will just be wasting cyberspace

if the user gives just that little bit of extra info then they will get a better response as people have more to work with. This will produce replies without all the crap you normally see in a what's best thread and probably quicker also

isn't this a better thing for a forum to contain more informative threads that don't contain all the usual crap? It makes it a more efficient place to learn about stuff as there will be more info than useless posts which Doom9 is all about. That's a better place for a newbie to be if they are looking for info as it's a pain searching through all the crap!

just look at this thread, what info does it contain?. Nothing worthy really, just some people wanting to diss rule#12 for some strange reason ;)

[Lazza]

Well it's 72.4% in favour of keeping rule 12 so can we just please close this thread now?

Please, please, please. :(

I see the argument from both sides and I voted yes to keeping it. Why? Because it's all about being sensible in this area at the end of the day and I'm sure that can happen. :)

[dragongodz]

yes the numbers say pretty clearly what those wanting to vote think about this. if people dont like it then, as they have already said, go to a different forum.

but i will sum up yet again what has been said. you can give your opinions on a piece of software and compare it to something similar. you can ask about specifics(functions, shortcoming,bugs etc) about a program. you simply can not ask such a general question as "whats best".

this thread is not flogging a dead horse, its flogged, buried, dug back up and flogged some more. enough already please.

[MackemX]

good post dragongodz but I'm sure the non believers may still have their say ;)

I'm one trying to bury it :), so maybe we should cremate it instead :D

[IvIark]

MackemX, you've certainly got a lot to write still considering you've not got the time to answer simple questions. The only people going on about it now are the people trying to justify it, so why don't you keep your opinion and we'll keep ours and enjoy the unrestricted posts on other forums as well as the more draconian one here.

[MackemX]

that's because there isn't any 'lazy' what's best threads at the minute :D, I wonder why?

you are the one still coming back trying to justify why it shouldn't be there

why not just accept it will not be changed and be done with and why even bother posting what you just did :confused:

there is a BIG difference between what I would call a simple question and a lazy simple question

this is the difference you don't seem to see or do see it but enjoy trying to bleat on about why rule 12 shouldn't be there and stir a little? :p

seeing as I have a few minutes to spare I will give you an example of the difference ;) as I'm off out on the lash later tonight with the Lads down the Town for a proper XMAS booze up and doing a bit ratting also :devil:

lazy simple question :
what's the best transcoder for quality?

simple question :
I have tried DVDShrink, IC7, IC8 and CloneDVD and I think IC8 is the best quality. Does anyone agree or know anything that produces better quality?

basically it's the same question but the 2nd shows the poster got off his fat lazy ass and at least tried first

the rule is only as severe or as restrictive as you wish it to be, but it's actually quite tame if you step back a bit ;)

p.s. what's the 'best' nightclub to go to find beautiful looking women? Maybe trying to answer this will help the non believers understand why rule #12 is existence. For those who don't then I just don't know what else to say :D

p.p.s IvIark, 12 of your 13 posts in this forum are in this thread, the only other was way back in March so don't start questioning whether I post replies to simple threads because I do but sometimes I'm selective for my own personal reasons ;). Don't worry, I ain't biting I'm just nibbling ;)

[2COOL]

________________________________________________
1. Are you lazy?

"Yes, I sure am!"> Repeat step 1
"No, I'm ready!"> Go to step 2
________________________________________________
2. Have you done any research in this forum and outside of it too?

"Yes, but I haven't found an answer to help me decide"> Go to step 3
"Yes, I really like the program after what I've read"> Then buy/use it.
"No, I haven't done any yet"> Read Forum rule #1. Repeat step 1
________________________________________________
3. Did you try out the trialware?

"Yes, I've tried it"> Go to step 4
"No, I haven't yet"> Go to step 1
"There isn't one available"> Either find another program that has one or buy it at your own risk. Go to step 1
________________________________________________
4. Like what you see?

"Yes, the program looks promising."> Add program to a compare list, go to step 5
"No, this program is crap!"> Test another and repeat step 3
________________________________________________
5. Did you decide what's best in your compare list?

"Yes, I really love this program!"> Then use it. This is your "BEST".
"No, I'm still undecided on getting my so-called best program"> Post a specific question concerning the grey areas of the program. Read and abide by Forum rule #12.
________________________________________________

[IvIark]

you are the one still coming back trying to justify why it shouldn't be there

No I'm not. I've already explained that I don't care if it stays here or not, it really isn't going to change my life one way or the other and people don't need to spend all their time at one forum do they?

I have tried DVDShrink, IC7, IC8 and CloneDVD and I think IC8 is the best quality. Does anyone agree or know anything that produces better quality?

You're preaching to the converted, I already said exactly the same thing days ago.

p.p.s IvIark, 12 of your 13 posts in this forum are in this thread, the only other was way back in March so don't start questioning whether I post replies to simple threads because I do but sometimes I'm selective for my own personal reasons . Don't worry, I ain't biting I'm just nibbling

Look I appreciate that you probably have much more time for ventures that you have a commercial return on, but like I said, not everyone feels the same way as you about sharing information. I don't think I could alter your opinion and nor do I want to as it is completely irrelevant to me. This thread asked for opinions and I gave mine that it is unnecessarily restrictive and if you don't like it, then don't read it.

Enjoy your night
Mark

[MackemX]

so what has what I do with my time got to do at all with rule #12? and why did you post that in your previous post and even again in your last post mentioning commercial? :p. Why single me out in your post?. Maybe I should start a thread and ask what's 'best' for me to do with my spare time?

give me a break man and give up trying to get me to bite :rolleyes:. I ain't gonna bite but I will chew on you for now and spit you out when I'm finished playing cos at the minute I've nothing to do before I go out :D

even the 'if you don't like it, don't read it' attitude is a thing I grew out of a while back as it's a pathetic attitude to have

I guess if I go back to being a kid I could now say if 'I don't want to read it, then please will you not write it in the first place' ;)

[IvIark]

even the 'if you don't like it, don't read it' attitude is a thing I grew out of a while back as it's a pathetic attitude to have

LOL, well as the phrase "Sunderland Intellect" is a blatant oxymoron, I don't think I'll feel too slighted by your comment. Chill out man and have that beer you've promised yourself.

Mark

[MackemX]

Originally posted by IvIark
LOL, well as the phrase "Sunderland Intellect" is a blatant oxymoron, I don't think I'll feel too slighted by your comment. Chill out man and have that beer you've promised yourself.

Mark again what has Sunderland got to do with rule #12? :p

I suggest you try staying on topic instead of personalizing posts and I'm chilled don't worry as all I'm doing is feeding your ego :D

[IvIark]

again what has Sunderland got to do with rule #12?
About as much as my pathetic attitude I would say.

Mark

[MackemX]

you started it :p, nah nah nah nah nah naaaaaaa!

roflmao :D :D :D :D :D

p.s. If you read what I said, I said it was a pathetic attitude I dropped, so what's pathetic to me may not be pathetic to others. Won't that fit into the 'each to his own' category?
I didn't say you were pathetic ;)

[IvIark]

so what's pathetic to me may not be pathetic to others.

You mean like rule 12? :D

[MackemX]

Originally posted by IvIark
You mean like rule 12? :D lol

yeah :D, exactly

I'm off now, so enjoy all cos I'm sure I will :D :D :D

and Merry XMAS all ;)

[2COOL]

Soooo aaannywaaayss...what you think about the guide?:p :p

[MackemX]

Originally posted by 2COOL
Soooo aaannywaaayss...what you think about the guide?:p :p

why am I still on step 1???????

[IvIark]

I'm off now, so enjoy all cos I'm sure I will

Have a good night and don't do too much. :D Pass my best on to Ian Freeman if you see him on the door!


Soooo aaannywaaayss...what you think about the guide?

That'd do wonders I reckon. I'd vote for that! :D

Mark

[jdobbs]

Sigh...

Let's vote on which is the best rule... right now 12 looks pretty good. You see where these arguments lead?

What does this entire thread have to do with One Click DVD backups?

:(

[monomer]

I voted in this poll way back when it was less than a page long. I always choose the "free speech" option when offered a choice. I thought of this whole thread as a 'lark'... I mean does anybody here really think this forum is a democracy? Unfortuately most of the good forums are all dictatorships of some sort. Have any of you ever visited a forum without any controls??? It quickly becomes the playground for foul-mouthed 13-year boys who have no real friends to play with. This is their chance to bait the "adults" and to become "smart-asses" in a protected environment. This has the effect of 'running off' all the intelligent people that contribute while leaving behind only those who can be 'baited' (you know the type that has to always get in the last word)... this makes the forum useless to any further intelligent discussion on any subject of importance. You've got to have moderators (forum police) that enforce the rules (laws) often uni-laterally and then the forum members (meaning 'you') have the choice of whether or not to participate and to what extent. If everyone leaves the forum because of draeconian measures being enforced, the forum either changes its rules or dies... so in a strange sense, this is a type of democracy and your vote is to participate or not.

Being a forum moderator is prabably one of the most thankless tasks on the internet... I'm glad these forums have them... its the 'rules' I often have the major problem with. I believe that asking "what's best?" is not the problem and it certainly doesn't need to be curtailed... its some of the responses that need to be 'toned down' by the moderators when it gets 'foul-mouthed', involves personnal attacks on character, name calling, and/or turns into 'gang-bangs'. Though I really dislike the limiting of 'free-speech', I also realise that too much of the wrong kind of 'free-speech' can destroy as well.

[writersblock29]

@monomer

My very first experience in a forum was some years ago, participating on Electra's Metallica fansite (MOSHBOSS was my username, to those who may care). So I absolutely agree with many of your comments -- as would anyone who had (or has... I'm not even sure if that forum exists anymore) visited that site. To allow free reign to anyone who would step up on a soapbox is absolutely, undeniably, asking for trouble. So I'll second your statements about the need for moderators. As a whole, I think the mods on this forum do a damned fine job! Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, indeed... but some people have a lot to say about nothing -- and are authorities on that very subject!

However, I do question just what value my (or anyone else's) opinion holds when it's concerning my favorite transcoder. Let's say my favorite is DVD2ONE. Someone else will tell me I'm nuts, and that the quality sucks. This may prevent someone else who may well have been satisfied with DVD2ONE from ever trying it. The question of "what's best" really is only an invite for people's opinions, after all, since the very concept of "best" is subjective. Not only that, but a software developer who reads tons of negative feedback (and we know how constructive the negative feedback on this or any thread tends to be!) about his product isn't bound to post said forum concerning updates and the like.

It makes far more sense to simply allow discusion on the various products themselves, as far as features and functions are concerned. Reporting problems and asking questions -- not to mention, supplying answers to the problems of others. Only through these methods can we give the reader the means to make up his or her own mind about what to try, and allow them to draw their own conclusions. If they're happy with a particular product... then life's good and all's peaceful. If not, then they can quickly gather information which will make them all the wiser for making a new choice.

To ask a moderator to "tone down" the remarks is to ask them to censor... "censor" is a word that makes me cringe! If ever a post of mine were edited, I'd be bound to never post again. It really becomes the responsibility of the poster themselves to be respectful of others. Maturity -- while becoming increasingly rare in today's world -- is the key that moderators can't provide if we're to openly voice our experiences and solve problems here. All they can really do is to close the thread when it's getting out of hand -- a task I've seen them do many times here.

For these reasons, I've voted in favor of Rule 12.

...Of course, that's only MY two cents -- and that's probably charging too much!

--Cheers!

[monomer]

writersblock29 (...are there really 28 others or is this the 29th time?)

For all the discussions/arguments I've witnessed on forums (and that's a lot of 'em!) I have almost never seen one where someone actually admits to having had their point of view changed, ("What? Hell no! Why that's almost like admitting I was wrong! NEVER!")... its just normal human nature to be stubborn. In most discussions/arguments, each person will take a position and then defend it to the bitter end. While a discussion may not cause anyone to actually change their viewpoint, I believe that in defending one's position it often forces us to examine the subject matter much more carefully and can even lead us to making some observations and drawing conclusions that we didn't have before... thus having the effect of making us think clearer about the subject and also possibly improve our written communications skills. I believe that as long as the discussion is based upon logic and/or data and/or research and/or relevant experiences the exercise can be worthwhile for both participants and observers alike. And even if not, a heated discussion is still very entertaining and can sure draw a crowd. Of course the danger here is when some of the 'combatants' resort to one- or two-liner 'zingers' meant to inflict hurt, name calling to besmirch character, or a group 'gang-bang' with a flush of idiotic one-liners like "me too" or "I agree with him"... these tactics do nothing to add to the discussion but are only meant to 'silence' or intimidate the 'opposition'. Unfortunately it often works by driving someone off the forum forever... how sad...

What I meant by using the term "tone down" was when things start getting out-of-hand the moderator should try to 'set the appropriate tone' for the discussion by interjecting a reminder to respect and tolerate other opinions. If appropriately timed and carefully worded, often that is all that's necessary to turn a deteriorating discussion back to productivity. However, if no one takes the hint, then a 'veiled' threat is in order... if they still don't get it, a tersely worded ultimatum should be next... if it still continues only then invoke censorship by closing/removing the thread. I've witnessed past moderator interventions on this forum that followed this model. What I'm trying to say here is... censor the 'rude responses' and not the innocent newbie question of "What's best?"

[dragongodz]

guys you are missing the point a bit i think.

it has been said many time already why rule 12 is there and pointed out how it is basically trying to make people be more specific about what they ask. now when alls said and done there SHOULD be no more to say. as you see though some just want to keep arguing the point. this is not constructive and helps nobody.

as for cencorship, well would you like porn links being posted or how about links to snuff movies ? no ? then you are in favour of at least some cencorship. it is only if a well thought out point is censored that you should really worry about, not people arguing for arguments sake. the mods here are very fair and infact tend to let arguments(when thats what a thread has turned in to) run too far occasionally i think.

as for some people leaving the forum forever, well if it is someone who starts arguments and insults people and the board as a whole and doesnt actually contribute in any way shape or form, well good riddance. if all someone can do is call someone names and try to big note themselves(i am a mod on another forum, i have been doing this for x years, i have done everything) as if to say everyone else is beneath them and dont know what they are talking about(unless they agree with them) then will they really be missed ?

and this is all totally off topic for this thread by the way. :D

so come on guys why dont we all just let this thread die the death it deserved a long time ago ?

[writersblock29]

@monomer

Very well spoken, and thought-provoking! Also, a good example in and of itself as to what we're discussing: Two people's abilities to express differing viewpoints.

You suck and you're wrong!

...Just kidding, of course. ;)

The study of human nature is indeed one that I could go on and on about until no one who presently visits this forum would dare come back... for fear of boredom! You definately raise some interesting arguements supporting the removal of Rule 12. Please don't call it a matter of pride, however, if I still beg to differ -- I truely consider neither one of us right OR wrong! Perhaps you have more faith in people's ability to maturely discuss topics rather than swing hammers at each other. (Perhaps Metallica music's done more to my view of life than it should have! Are you reading, Tipper Gore?) Who knows? I still feel, however, that it's easier for a forum such as this to simply say "don't ask what's best" rather than have to babysit each time this question arrises. And arrise it will: The past few months alone have seen several new products -- or updates to old ones which have altered their usefulness. ON THE OTHER HAND, the mods currently have to keep saying "don't ask what's best" each time SOMEONE ASKS WHAT'S BEST. Catch 22! There really doesn't seem to be a way to win this one, no matter what side of the fence you're on.

There's also the fact that some people's feelings simply get hurt easily. Call it insecurity. Say it's due to a language barrier. Maybe something you said just steps on their ego. It happens. Hell, I just stepped away from a thread (which, coincidentally, was asking what transcoder is NOT best) where an individual got bent out of shape about -- of all things -- a reference to one of his SOAP analogies in a different conversation. As to why... only this individual can truely say. I can say for my part that no "rub" was intended whatsoever. But it serves as an example as to just how easily things spark sometimes. I seriously doubt anyone here WANTS to make enemies... nor, nesessarily, wishes to even irritate anyone else. But it happens, nonetheless. Add this element to what you've pointed out about people's grips on their opinions.

Ka-Boom!

Alas! I don't think this one's winable!

(BTW: 29 was my age on enrollment. Had I known I would have stuck around this long, I would have changed the number to something more timeless!)

--Cheers!

[writersblock29]

@dragongodz

"as for cencorship, well would you like porn links being posted or how about links to snuff movies ?"

You really want to know? I serriously think that our view of sex (in reference to the porn question) has created excessive curiousity and therefore turned an elementary part of life into an enemy. I honestly think that openess to discussing this topic kills a great deal of the threat. Ditto, in discussing death; enevitable, permanent, and at times tragic. In letting children know that everyone killed is precious in someone else's life. And yes, I've got kids. But I see where you're getting at!

Either way, though... I think THE point here is that these ARE the rules. We post under their terms. If we're not in agreement, then bye-bye with us -- off to another forum which either doesn't have the same rules, or allows us to mold them for ourselves by voting like this. I truely don't expect Doom9 to change anything, either way: This is his pad! If ever he does something I don't agree with, I'm free to leave. He's under no pressure to make me happy. As things stand now, I'm happy to be here!

...And, you know what? You're right! This thread's been dead so long, it's started to stink!

[MackemX]

has anyone here actually been striked for rule #12? :confused:. It's one of the tamest rules around here so what's all the fuss :D. It's a simple reference that can be used at certain times

The most I have seen is 'please read rule #12', which I sometime post and use my quotes that were in my signature but I'll also explain why, instead of just quoting the rules. I don't recall ever getting a negative reply from mentioning the rules as most will understand what tin of worms they have just opened up and how it leads to the heated debates

I have debated strongly sometimes and I have toned it down, not as much wish :(. No matter how much you try to stress your points, as Monomer mentions you will not change someone's opinion who think they are right, it's human nature

there's a few users in this forum and another forum that have had heated discussions with me in the past and although I'd like to hear their opinions now on a few of those matters as they may now have changed ;), it's all water under the bridge I suppose, as you cannot change the past

I just wish we could all move on as it's the newbies who are the ones who are missing out. I feel this forum isn't the same as it was earlier this year when everyone was around and putting in their 2 cents worth but in a very constructive way :(. Take out the rejig threads and this one in this forum and it doesn't leave very many scraps for the rest :(

this thread was never winable but neither is a 'what's best?' thread ;) I will say the usual this thread died blah blah but I've had to post to say that :D

[Pfc Joker]

I think that products can be compared, and are compared everyday in many consumer magazines based on a number of criteria.

There is no way in hell :devil: that all members of the Doom9 forum could compare the same product based on a number of criteria.

We all have different rigs, we all do things slightly different. There's no way you could keep the variables down enough to the point that a reasonable comparison could even begin to be made. We would end up with more misinformation than anything else.

I'm a logical person, left-brain orientated if you will, I want numbers, facts, figures and f'n diagrams. Not a bunch of opinions on this and that and everything else.

[Doom9]

I had hoped it would just die down but now it's time to close this thread. Even though it was never up to a vote, the majority of people who participated actually support the stance of the people who work their butts of to make this forum work.