Finding Nemo R1-- It can be done, and here's how. Also learn about Duplicate PGCs!

[Eyes`Only]

Taken from the guide:
With the release of DoItFast4U! 1.4.0 (and versions 1.3.1+ if you were a beta tester) there was a new feature added with very little documentation. Those that were Scenarist-savvy were able to figure out the usage of this feature, but many were left unaware of the true reason that this new feature was added. This guide is to finally explain how to use the powerful feature: Autodetect and Uncheck Duplicate PGCs.

In the decision of what DVD to use for this guide, I chose one that many have been having problems with. As a matter of fact, as of the writing of this guide, I haven't heard of anyone who has truly reauthored Finding Nemo without butchering it (removing features, omitting features, etc). So, I undertook the task of finding out if could be done. It can, and now you will see how. I have also chosen to show you two entirely different methods with which to use your soon-to-be-newfound knowledge of duplicate PGCs: 1) Using IFOUpdate's Adjusted Cell Mode (ACM, an oft-discussed but never truly documented feature of ifoupdate) and 2) Reconstructing the IFO structure. By the time this guide is over, you should have both of these methods understood, and it will be to your discretion to choose which method you want to use for each future DVD you reauthor.


The guide can be found in the downloads section of my website for now, and hopefully soon in the Doom9 guides section.

-Eyes`Only

edit: The guide is now on Doom9 in the DVD Backup guides section.

[seewen]

Excellent guide ! thanks.

But it's so easy (in the case you have to re-order by vobid) that I wonder if an appz (like RA) could create a scenarist script automatically ?

[Eyes`Only]

Well, we analyze the .IFOs ourselves without using IFOEdit. Using an app to do something is one thing, getting information out of it would be something entirely different and I personally don't know an easy way it could be done.

As far as RA goes, we're looking into an alternative. D3s7 is currently working on an app that will do everything RA does and more. :)

RA itself would have a hard time figuring out that IFOUpdate is requiring 50 or so dummy cells, i can't wait to see how D3s7 overcomes this! :)

[orwell]

Eyes' Only tanks for sharing this excellent guide.

My main doubt is following: you have ripped the dvd using the pgc or the vobid method?
This because in your guide of Finding Nemo you have used Reauthorist that, I know, is not compatible with the rip by vobid.
If I have not understood badly, you have ripped normally by pgc method, used reauthorist in order to create the script scenarist and finally go in the scenarist in order to rearrange the cells in the scenario editor.
Tell me if I have understood well or badly please.


And sorry for my bad english... :)

[Eyes`Only]

Since I didn't tell you to demux by VOBID, PGC was selected by default. The only time VOBID demux is really necessary is when angles are included.

[taskman]

This guide came along at just the right time. I was having trouble with pirates of the caribbean region 2 and this guide has managed to solve the problems I was having. Excellent work.

[Eyes`Only]

Thanks. I figured it would open a lot of people's eyes to some of the trickier workings of scenarist :D It's not meant to be a guide for Finding Nemo only, obviously. Many of the techniques (all?) can be applied to other difficult projects too.

[D3s7]

Originally posted by Eyes`Only
RA itself would have a hard time figuring out that IFOUpdate is requiring 50 or so dummy cells, i can't wait to see how D3s7 overcomes this! :)

Oh goodie for me... something else to worry about :)

[Eyes`Only]

LOL! :eek:

[MLS]

I followed this guide and the resulting DVD works, also... I've never done a project by vobid before, or took advantage of the duplicate PGC detection. But I did notice when viewing the full version with all the added stuff, that when it switches from movie footage to the extra stuff, the picture gets a lot of black blocks on it, then movies to the extra portion. Is this normal? Thanks for the guide though this will definitely be useful info for later projects.

/MLS

[D3s7]

That sounds like your getting artifacts..

what was your average bitrate and how many passes did you do..

My personal rule of thumb is under 3000 I do 3-4 passes... over 2-3

[MLS]

Nah it wasn't those, it was black blocks over the screen. Picture looked fine when it was playing normally, but the second it switches PGCs the screen gets covered partially with black blocks and then it switches to the commentary stuff. I guess its just a NSM link or what?

/MLS

[D3s7]

oh that sounds more like wrong colors for your subs...

Nemo was BoV in spots...

[MLS]

hmm unless the button covered 3/4 of the screen... It's hard to explain without a screenshot and I already deleted the project. Oh well, if nobody else posts about it I'll assume it was just my fault.

/MLS

[BRN]

I just finished Nemo and it went off without a hitch. Something I discovered during the process speeds things up quite a bit.

Once BatchCCEWS finishes the first RoBa pass RA can be run to create the .scp file and the .scp file imported into Scenarist while BatchCCEWS is running the remaining passes of the encode. The process of renaming scenes and recreating the PGC can be done while the movie is encoding. Once BatchCCEWS finishes the encode use the Scenarist tip from Trilight's site on reencoding a movie after the Scenarist project is layed out.

Basically, close Scenarist when you've finished the layout and delete the .vif file for the encoded movie that was created when the RA .scp was first imported. Make sure the filename for finished .m2v exactly matches the filename of the .m2v that was imported in the RA script. Then open the Scenarist project again and select the Data tab at the lower right pane and double click the asset for the main movie and let Scenarist recreate the .vif file. Proceed with the rest of the guide from there.

I would think this would work for any other backup that uses multiple passes during encoding but I haven't tried it yet.

[Eyes`Only]

:goodpost: :helpful:

Thanks for the tip. I'm glad to hear that your project was successful. Those are some good ideas, except that you really don't need to double-click on the assets, the .vifs will be created any time you start to change a track or when you go to compile it. Starting the project is a great idea for those that don't just hit Do It! and go to bed. :o

[Yoda80]

Here's a question. All I am trying to do is rip Finding Nemo along with the trailer for the Incredibles and Knick Knack and put it on a DVDR. It all worked fine, except Nemo has 125 chapters! What I did was rip the main movie with DVD Decrypter, then make new IFO files with IFOedit. It seems that IFOedit is generating a chapter for each cell. Is there a way to do what I want here without having so many chapters? Thanks for the help!

AJG

[Eyes`Only]

Sorry, I don't support butchering. Please don't post non-Big3 topics in the Big3 forum.

[Yoda80]

Sorry, didn't realize I was in this particular forum. I'm a newbie, please forgive me!

AJG

[Eyes`Only]

Forgiven.

When you are ready to do full backups with amazing quality, come back and visit :)

[AndyP]

Hi

Am using this method to do Pirates of the Carribean (R2/PAL). All is OK until the IFOUpdate step. The correct VTS sectors part throws up the error message 'VTS_01_0.BUP is not correctly sized on a sector boundry'. All else is OK.

In IFO Edit Correct VTS sectors throws up the following error messages twice in order (every time it is run):

file position does not match the offset for table:
ID_VTSM_C_ADT
ID_VTSM_VOBU_ADMAP
ID_VTS_C_ADT
ID_VTS_VOBU_ADMAP

I have rechecked the scenario layout and it is all fine. The DVD plays in PowerDVD. The new and old IFO's are here. I also note that using the copy audio and subpicture tables I loose one of the subtitle streams despite its presence in the track editor in scenarist.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.powell/VTS_01_0.IFO
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.powell/VTS_01_0_NEW.IFO

Thanks for your help,
Andy

[69Mws]

I also did Pirates Of The Caribbean (R1, but it's quite the same structure as far as I can tell) with Eyes' described method.

It worked perfect for me. I think you messed up something in the scenarist part, didn't follow the guide exactly or maybe forgot to set 'Adjusted Cell Mode' in IfoUpdate.

In fact, it's a bit easier than in Finding Nemo, 'cause you can spare yourself the renaming-part in scenarist. When you take a look at the graphical display of the ifo layout in IfoUpdate, you only need to drag every cell one after another in the scenario editor, like in Eyes' guide.

After the last cell of the main-movie there are only dummy cells placed, in my case they all had a duration of 15 frames I guess and it was a number of 17 I guess in my case (you could use a simple blank bitmap, drag it into the data-editor, create a track as "slide show" with 15 frames duration, this one you drag and drop as often as needed behind the last cell from the main-movie).

The only thing that didn't work in my first try, was that the last audio-track wasn't demuxed by DIF4U although I checked it to demux. The last audio-track contains the blabla for the audio-commentaries where you can select specific scenes --> that also explains the structure of the ifo btw and why using acm-mode in IfoUpdate :)

What I did then, was demuxing the last audio-track with vobedit into the vts demux-directory and naming it properly so that ReAuthorist recognizes it. I think you also need to correct the max bitrate before encoding (9800 - bitrates from all kept audiotracks).

(I already informed Eyes about that audio thingy.)

Greetz
69Mws

[wmansir]

Thanks for explaining that bit with PotC's last audio track. I couldn't figure out how to do this with DIF4U, because it didn't demux that track (probably because it is present on the "select commentary scenes" which make up PGC_2 and up and isn't present in the main movie, PGC_1) I thought perhaps the audio track wasn't present during the cells that didnt have select commentaries, which would have ment ripping per cell and re-constructing the movie, and that is beyond my ability right now.

Now that I see it is much easier I will have to give it another go. First, I'm going to cut my teeth on this method with Boogie Nights.

[AndyP]

69Mws - Thanks for the reply.

Defintely set ACM mode.
As far as the structure goes, in IFOUpdate there are 13 dummy cells, then all the cells in the main movie (bar the last one) in order (as you described), then 5 dummy cells. For the dummy cells I use the PGC2 dummy cell.

I note that in the final IFO (created by scenarist) there is a vobid 1 and a vobid 29 with none inbetween. What vobids do you have in your authored IFO??

Still confused, but thanks :)

Andy

[69Mws]

Originally posted by AndyP
I note that in the final IFO (created by scenarist) there is a vobid 1 and a vobid 29 with none inbetween. What vobids do you have in your authored IFO??


The numbering of the vobids wasn't identical in my backup compared to the original one, but that's not so uncommon as far as I know.

The strange thing I noticed in your new ifo is, that your main movie only has one vobid, instead of several vobids like the original one. That's why I assumed that you maybe put things wrong together in the scenario editor, because that can't be from what I know when everything was done like in the guide and ACM was used with IfoUpdate :confused:

Greetz
69Mws

[69Mws]

@AndyP:

I took a look at your original ifo with IfoUpdate. I was wrong when saying it's the same structure as in my R1 version. The ifos may look identical, but the structure compared in IfoUpdate is not!

As I said, in my original ifo all cells of the main movie came one after another, ending with a short dummy counting some frames and after that again a bunch of dummies.

Now when taking a look at your original ifo in IfoUpdate, it shows me that it starts with 13 dummies (each 12 frames long) and after that comes the first chapter of the movie or so.

Now take a look at your reauthored ifo (graphical display): it starts with such a short dummy, but only ONE and after that comes directly the first chapter of the movie.

Make sure you put the cells in the scenario editor in that order like in the original ifo shown (in the graphical display of IfoUpdate).

When the graphical display of IfoUpdate shows you 13 dummies at the beginning, then you also have to place 13 of 'em in the scenario editor and not just one.

Greetz
69Mws

[AndyP]

I know there have to be 13 dummy cells first, i'm not that stupid! :) And I promise you that if you look at my layout in scenarist that the PGC2 dummy cell I used is indeed there 13 times before the real cells begin, BUT for some odd reason scenarist only puts one dummy cell in when it authors it. I will try to do a screen grab to show you.....

A question, has anyone successfuly done a project where there is more than one dummy cell at the start??

Thanks
Andy

[69Mws]

Hm...maybe you shouldn't use that short clip. I think I also had issues with those little cells, but I'm not sure right now.

Try my mentioned method above with creating a blank bitmap with dvd-resolution (720x576 in your case I suppose) and drag it to the data editor. Then drag it to the track editor. Scenarist will ask you to specify the type, declare it then as slide show. You have to change the duration to 12 frames by yourself (Scenarist sets a duration of 10 secs by default).

Use this dummy then in the scenario editor, maybe that works better.

Greetz
69Mws

[AndyP]

Done blank clip method. Still does not work. See screenshots below to see that in scenarist there are 13 blank cells (numbered 0-12) and then the movie cells (starting vobid 26).

Then see the two ifoupdate graphical shots... one is the authored IFO the other is the original AFTER ifoupdate. Both only one starting blank cell.

Thoughts....
Cheers
Andy

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.powell/scenarist.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.powell/ifoupdate_authored.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.powell/ifoupdate_after.jpg

[69Mws]

AndyP:

Unfortunately now I have no further clue what to do on this one :confused:

Greetz
69Mws

[AndyP]

Some answers!!!!

The trick is to make multiple dummy tracks as described and not reusing the same one. This creates an identical structure..... but the error still occurs.

Just then I noticed the new IFOUpdate version 0.78... now this works perfectly, even though if you run it through IFOedit later it doesn't like it and still throws its errors....

Still don't know the answer to the last point...

Andy

[Loop]

Hello... I`m a fairly competent big3 user, but I have some questions when it comes to duplicate pgc`s.

I`m doing a TV-serie(talkshow) DVD. It has two vtses. VTS_2 contains main movie in PGC_1 (which is 3 hours and 20 minutes long) PGC_2 - PGC_9 contains the same movie but seperated into episodes. Altogether it has 17 pgc`s, but 10 - 17 were removed by dif4u because they have the same values as 2-9. Still I see PGC 2 - 9 also as duplicates, as they point to the different episodes in the main movie pgc. I have gotten as far as ripping the dvd in dif4u and opened Docce4u. What I don`t understand is: If PGC_2 - 9 is supposed to be links into the main movie pgc_1, why do you have to reencode them ? And if I`m not supposed to reencode them in docce4u, what do I do with them then ? Should I just remove them from the Docce4u list ? If I reencode them toghether with the main movie pgc, then that would mean quite a big oversize. PGC_1 has to be reencoded to 2990 kbps to fit a dvdr. This is a quality loss of almost 50% alone, so I`m guessing not to do reencodes of the other pgc`s.

I seem to be missing a point in the guide here about this..but from what I can read about Finding Nemo .. you reencode these type of pgc`s as well. Can someone offer a duplicate newbie some assistance ?

[Trahald]

loop - double check the ifo.. probably those pgc have unique vob info in them.. doitfast will pick any pgc with unique vob info in it.. even if it has to pick pgcs with mostly the same stuff.. (example is T2 which has 3 main pgcs with 3 slightly different versions of the movie.. even tho its 97% the same vobids, there are unique vob ids in each pgc so doitfast is forced to pick all 3 in order to get the whole vts.) hit refresh just to make sure and/or check the ifo yourself.. if it still picks the same pgcs then you would want to do vobid mode to save space

[marpada]

I have a problem with the first method, backing up Notting Hill Z4 (i guess quite similar to Z1).

It has a main movie PGC and 9 PGC more pointing to the musical scenes within the movie.

I used the ACM procedure without error but had problems playing in my Pioner DV-333: it froze every cell. I had success with other player though.

I recreated the PGC structure in Scenarist and ran ok, but I don't know what I'll do when thera are more than 40 PGCs !

Any idea/suggestion ?

[de.lesse.bg]

The guide is very good... eyes..
Just one problem doing the R2. (finding nemo-disc1)
With the big PGC, encoded with cce there is just one problem, i'dont know if you've seen it, but there are more than 99 capters/cells or I-Frames!! i've seen that cce can't handle more than 100 i think... i've did it with the guide and there are still some frameschifting problems.. cause the improper place if I-Frame insertion..

Splitting the M2V in 2 pieces and encoding that way or anyone other solution????

ThanX...

[Trahald]

i didnt see anything about a limit in the cce manual or the cce doom9 faq for chapters. i have to test it when/if i get time
have you seen this mentioned somewhere before? or is it just your observation?

[de.lesse.bg]

CCE is limited to 128 I-Frames!!!!!!!!!!! (Manual insertion)

[Trahald]

well. you forced me to test it.. and sun of a gun if it aint so

ive never set them that high. and also for the record.. i didnt say it wasnt true.. just said it wasnt in the manual.

anyways.. technically you only have to set perfect i-frames where there are chapter breaks and where the you switch from the commentary cut scenes. ( the spots in between have no direct seeking so accuracy isnt necessary) problem is there are so many chapter breaks and cut scenes that will only elliminate a few i-frame spots and may not be enough

the way i did NEMO is, after dif4u makes its selections.. i deselect the big pgc.. i selected the smaller pgcs. then in scenarist i rebuilt the full scenario (im not an ACM fan). that worked fine for me and the commentary scenes were perfect aligned

[de.lesse.bg]

i've tried it also with the smaller PGC's, in ACM mode, should work normally, but there is a problem during demuxing the first PGC (movie PGC) the 2nd was the BIG one, the 3e the extra...
The first PGC didn't extracted the directory comment!! So i was unable to use this method and still on hold....
The way how eyes described it, works good but not good for me... Need a solution for CCE (I-frames)...

Someone????

[influenza]

Hmm, well for fun i will do the PAL version over the weekend, see how it turns out.

[D3s7]

Originally posted by de.lesse.bg
i've tried it also with the smaller PGC's, in ACM mode, should work normally, but there is a problem during demuxing the first PGC (movie PGC) the 2nd was the BIG one, the 3e the extra...
The first PGC didn't extracted the directory comment!! So i was unable to use this method and still on hold....
The way how eyes described it, works good but not good for me... Need a solution for CCE (I-frames)...

Someone????

FYI: the NTSC version of this really couldn't be done by PGC either for this same reason.... a couple of the "duplicate pgc's" use different audio tracks......

To my knowledge, in order to get ALL the audio, this did end up having to be done via vobid

[influenza]

Well I wonder if that statement is true. Why not do a demux for all pgcs (or extract the needed different audio manually) and after that do a demux excluding the duplicate ones.

It will need some manual intervention in scenarist of course, but you can get very far by replacing some of the audio etc.

This is all without ever seeing the NTSC version so correct me if I'm wrong :D

[D3s7]

Originally posted by influenza
Well I wonder if that statement is true. Why not do a demux for all pgcs (or extract the needed different audio manually) and after that do a demux excluding the duplicate ones.

It will need some manual intervention in scenarist of course, but you can get very far by replacing some of the audio etc.

This is all without ever seeing the NTSC version so correct me if I'm wrong :D

Ok Ok... it can't be done via PGC w/out manual intervention :)

but yes you are correct.... if you want to manually demux the audio streams then yes... it could be done.. however not automagically.. :)

We probably could automate something that if the extra audio needs to be demuxed in a duplicate PGC, to do so then add it to the layout as a seperate stream... Of course the ifo would need to be updated later however seems like the most straight forward way

[influenza]

automagically

LOL

[Trahald]

i did it by pgc (using hte movie only pgc and the commentary smaller pgcs..) i got all the audio commentaries and main audio.. works 100%

[D3s7]

you sure about that?? :)

I know one of the duplicate PGC's uses a different audio track

[influenza]

Hmm, what a disappointment. The Pal version has just one big pgc with all the audio. It seems pretty straight forward. Just demux by pgc and create the other pgcs using the bigger one. But that's without trying, so I'll get back to it.

[jel]

hey flu,
i had some synching issues with the directors commentary and associated subs with the r4 PAL version
i ended up doing it by vobid demux and using scenaid to put it all back together again (remember my post where it took 30 minutes to analyse the folders :D )
i would be interested to see how you go.

[de.lesse.bg]

The Pal version has just one big pgc with all the audio. It seems pretty straight forward. Just demux by pgc and create the other pgcs using the bigger one.
I'll confirm that, if you encode the BIG PGC it works 95%, the audio works fine, all included, etc... The MAIN problem, the place of the I-Frames used to chapters and cell's!!!

Trahald: i did it by pgc (using hte movie only pgc and the commentary smaller pgcs..) i got all the audio commentaries and main audio.. works 100%
Ok, this gives not a I-Frame problem, that's right... The audio for NTSC i don't know... but for PAL... Nope Doesn't work, The main language streams are ok, but it didn't extracted the extra audio...

[influenza]

Hmm so is this related to encoding (the experienced problems), cause I've demuxed it and putting it back together without reencoding to save some time here