DVD-R not dead yet -- Ritek anounces 8x media

[windtrader]

News & Events Back Sep. 24, 2003
RITEK Announces DVD 8X during Computex

RITEK announced brand new 8X DVD+R and DVD-R disks during COMPUTEX Taipei. High-speed recordable DVD disks require a highly precise production process as well as a high-level technology of dying and mass production. RITEK has achieved this requirement, which is definitely the best demonstration of RITEK's strong R&D capabilities.

RITEK also launched a brand new series of compact disks based on the concept "X", including DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW, DVD-RAM and CD-R/RW, and decided to first present them to the public during COMPUTEX this year.

RITEK showcases 2GB compact flash cards, 6-in-1 card readers, 512 MB USB 2.0 EZ drives, 52x/32x/52x CD-RW drives and 4X dual DVD-RW drives and many other storage devices.

For more information of RITEK's latest products, please visit its booth at D008/010/012/107/109/111 during COMPUTEX from September 22 to 26.

Copyright©2003 RITEK Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Specifications are subject to change without notice.
All other trademarks are the property of their respective companies.

[klona]

Yes, that's a good news.
I believe there will be in fact no war between -R & +R, that just both standards will continue, and that about 90% of users will don't even know there are 2 standards, as every new burner do both.

[Doom9]

I wonder about all those 8x/4x DVD-R/W media and burners. The DVD forum hasn't officially announced the specs yet (though it could well be that they've already been finalized and distributed to manufacturers).
Either way, at this point it's highly doubtful that any format will go away.. even DVD-RAM has been more sturdy than most people thought, but it will never play a major role in the market.

[atreides93]

I just found out that Ritek has a facility in my home state :)

I never heard of Ritek before DVD-R's, though I found out they made CD-R's before then. They seem to be the only manufacturer that makes decent disks. Princo sucks, LeadData is "ok" but the DupEZ LeadDATA's I have only burn at 2x and won't even burn at 1X on a standalone dvd recorder. The Riteks are just so much better.

It does suck though that there aren't other manufacturers similar to Ritek....I suppose the only other "good" choices are TDK and RICOHJPN(but they ricoh only makes +R)

[alexnoe]

I wonder about all those 8x/4x DVD-R/W media and burners. The DVD forum hasn't officially announced the specs yet (though it could well be that they've already been finalized and distributed to manufacturers).I have been told that hey are ready, but that Philips and Ricoh (which are of course members of the DVD forum) did not agree to launching those standards yet. (I wonder why...)

Even the C'T, which is rather + friendly, was not able to find any DVD+ discs except for MCC and Ricoh for their last test, which made them "doubt about the chances of DVD+ on the market" :-)

[windtrader]

Take a look at the neighbors in the floor area where Ritek is now at the Computex Taipei tradeshow. This likely represents all the Taiwan DVD media businesses.


http://www.taipeitradeshows.com.tw/computex/hall_1.htm
http://www.taipeitradeshows.com.tw/computex/Download/Exhibition_Hall_1.pdf

Look in the main green block in the center; Ritek is near the rounded stage centered at the bottom of the green section.


This list provides a pretty good look into the main DVD-R industry. Media, software, hardware. Pretty much to who's who list.
http://www.rwppi.com/company/index.html

Another interesting tidbit. You know some of the Riteks have Ridata stamped in the hub. Ridata is the brand of Ritek Global Media, an overeas holding company originally wholly owned by Ritek Taiwan but for the past year, merged into a joint venture 80% owned by Deluxe and called Deluxe Global Media Services.

Once acquired they are scaling up the mass replication of DVDs worldwide. The figures quoted are upwards of 200 millions discs. Seems all media is physically produced in Taiwan, then distributed to the Deluxe DVD production sites.

I wonder if Ritek runs their own branded discs off their "A" Quality production lines. :-)

[erbuk]

http://www.dvd-recordable.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=825&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[alexnoe]

PCWelt :p This is the magazine which uses a Benq cd recorder for media tests for months, and then releases a test which shows that that recorder is crap and hardly burns any disc correctly... someone who needs to quote pc-welt is clearly out of serious sources for information.

Just look at the nonsense they write:
The DVD+R/RW format is likely to become the dominating format in 2004 according to most drive and media manufacturers. Currently, about 4 manufacturers make DVD+ discs. That means, this opinion can only be shared by those 4 (if there were more of them, more would also produce dvd+ media, to catch up with the market and not to get lost).

C'T:
>> although it is unlikely to buy bad media if you go for DVD+, the low number of manufacturers making dvd+ media raises serious doubts about the chances of dvd+ on the market <<

Note that C'T is seen as the only serious german magaize, if there is one at all. Since they are actually also DVD+, it should really make people think about it if they write something like that.

[erbuk]

ROFL, this must be a sensitive subject :D

Yes it's just speculations but it's not completely illogical. And there were a few other interesting news items in the article as well.

[alexnoe]

There are no other interesting items. It's clear that the speed will be raised until discs explode in the drive. Do you think cd-r has been stopped at 52x because no one is able to build lasers or media for 56x or 60x? :devil:
ROFL, this must be a sensitive subject I don't want that people believe anything PC-Welt writes. That's all. If a serious source would write that, there were no problem. It is PC-Welt, Chip, and all those 'cheese-sheets', as we call them, who randomly type what they are paid for. May it be that the NEC-1300A is not a piece of crap, or that Moser Baer CD-R media is good, or that the LiteOn 52x cannot read protected audio or write 99min discs... or that dvd- is again sceduled to be extinguished

[erbuk]

Personally I think its very interesting to hear about upcoming produts from sony, lite-on and others. But I respect your opinion, not everyone finds that interesting.

[alexnoe]

You can be sure that Plextor and Pioneer will release such drives as well...they just don't announce them half a year earlier.
*Every* major drive manufacturer will either build 12x and 16x drives, or will rebadge some.

[erbuk]

Sure, but I still think it's interesting to hear about it in advance even if it doesn't cover all brands and manufacturers. And I also find it fun to read speculations, serious or not, about what format will win or disappear even if I don't care which one (it's not my best friend disappearing, its a f...... disc format).

[windtrader]

* CMC, Ritek and an unamed Japanese manufacturer will start mass production of 8x DVD+R media in mid October

I had to laugh about that article too. It was SO slanted toward + that it "forgot" to quote the real Ritek announcement that was obviously quite balanced on all formats.

By the time DVD -+ technology gets to 32x, blue laser will becoming mainstream. Just as their was no point in futher developing CD technology, so it will be for DVD in a few years.

[alexnoe]

32x would require dual beam burning *and* 10000/min -> that's something I want to see before I believe it :)

[windtrader]

They said the same thing about 32x CD drives. :-)

Who the hell really knows? If I had a clue I would buy a carload of DVD media futures and retire!

[erbuk]

I'm sure that the manufacturers know the limits already and from what I have read in some (probably not to serious :p ) magazines they claim that the limit for the current disc materials lies around 12x. Then you have to move to much more expensive composite materials for the discs or use much more expensive multi beam burners. So just like in the case with cdr:s it's technically possible to burn faster but probably not economically.

[Doom9]

Currently, about 4 manufacturers make DVD+ discs. That means, this opinion can only be shared by those 4 (if there were more of them, more would also produce dvd+ media, to catch up with the market and not to get lost).
Well.. Pioneer, staunchest supporter of the minus format, added plus burning in their latest burner, leaving Toshiba as the only company I'm aware of, that only sells minus drives. Now as for the disc manufacturers, I know it firsthand that they root for the plus format, and while there aren't as many plants (that also has something to do with the time it takes to set up a production line.. the minus format has been around a lot longer), most brands offer both types of discs these days.
Now while PC Welt may not be a good mag (no objections on my part), that doesn't mean that everything they write is wrong, does it?
I believe they do have a point there. The plus format is currently entering more households than the minus format. While retail burners are mostly dual format, OEM burners are mostly plus only, leading to an increased demand on plus media. Currently, there is still a price difference, leading to people buying what's cheaper, DVD-R. As DVD+R demand increases, prices will equalize, and with the obvious price advantage in production of DVD+R prices of the plus format should become lower within the next 1-2 years. Add the availability of higher speed burning and you have a killer combination. If it weren't for the price, more people would buy plus media already today (and being entirely oblivious to the fact that they'll save themselves a lot of trouble because quality is generally higher in the plus format).

I have been told that hey are ready, but that Philips and Ricoh (which are of course members of the DVD forum) did not agree to launching those standards yet. (I wonder why...)
Do you have any facts to proove that? I recall that 4x DVD-Rs were out before the respective DVD+R counterparts.. so if it were for the plus proponents stalling, the same should've happened before, should it not? I don't know how the standard process works, but usually it's a majority decision, not a veto decision.

Now all this sounds awfully pro plus, but whenever I see a lot of DVD-R loving, there's usually some people who have invested into DVD-R and feel the need to publicly defend their buying decision and I'm not too fond of that. I have both DVD-R only and dual format burners and have burned quite a number of discs in each format. My disc buying decisions are based on price and quality and my preference based on technical facts, not gut feelings or justifications of my investments.

[DirtyAbdul]

doom9:

very well elaborated and balanced summary! thumbs up.

DA

[alexnoe]

Do you have any facts to proove that? Unfortunately not. This has been said by a developer who of course needs some contact to those companies, to fix problems when burning. However, I don't know if this piece of possibly-information came through that contact.... I can really only say what I have been told in this matter.
most brands offer both types of discs these days.Mitsubishi, Ricoh and Taiyo Yuden are available here. Although they are sold under 10 or more different names, they all are one of those three. Maxell is said to make DVD+, but only to sell in Japan (which is pity; their dvd- media is of exceptional quality and can be read back pretty fast (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/CDF/DVDSpeeds/Toshi1712Rd/Maxell_2x/read.gif).
Now while PC Welt may not be a good mag (no objections on my part), that doesn't mean that everything they write is wrong, does it? I prefer to ignore anything they write. You could also throw a dice instead of reading them....
As DVD+R demand increases, prices will equalize, and with the obvious price advantage in production of DVD+R prices of the plus format should become lower within the next 1-2 years.Mitsubishi has found a way to replace those land pre pits (http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/mw-30.08.03-003/) by something which does not require 2-pass-manufacturing. They plan to have stampers available by November, and say that the cost for production of a dvd- disc will then be about the same as for dvd+.
(and being entirely oblivious to the fact that they'll save themselves a lot of trouble because quality is generally higher in the plus format)Wait till Princo starts making DVD+ media :devil: (and believe me, the cheaper avg DVD+ media becomes, the higher the chance that Princo is trying to get a piece of the cake)
I don't know how the standard process works, but usually it's a majority decision, not a veto decision.The DVD forum has, at least that is what I was told, a veto decision if something new, such as new specs, is going to be released.

[mrbass]

I have a sony DVD±R burner and two lite-on DVD+R only burners. Not sure how much longer DVD-R will hold but I know which direction I'm going.

[erbuk]

Wait till Princo starts making DVD+ media (and believe me, the cheaper avg DVD+ media becomes, the higher the chance that Princo is trying to get a piece of the cake)

I don't get this. If the Princo discs are that bad then why do people use them in the comparsion between the formats and say that minus-discs are cheaper? If you exclude Princo then there is no notable difference in price between the two formats, at least not where I shop in Sweden and the UK. The 4x Riteks, Verbatims and other non Princo brands goes for the same price regardless of format.

[windtrader]

If it weren't for the price, more people would buy plus media already today (and being entirely oblivious to the fact that they'll save themselves a lot of trouble because quality is generally higher in the plus format).
Do you have a quick reference or two that covers this subject? It's news to me. And when you mean "generally" I assume you mean that the dash and plus discs are produced from similar quality and priced materials, similar machinery and equally skilled technicians, and similar QA grading processes, etc.

Or does "generally" mean inherently? If so, what is it that makes plus have better quality?

I'm just curious and am not stuck on either; just want always remain an informed buyer and user. The cost of media and burners in the long run is just commodities; I want to strive to always have my backups constantly made with the best valued media, hardware, software, and methods.

[disturbed1]

Originally posted by Doom9
Well.. Pioneer, staunchest supporter of the minus format, added plus burning in their latest burner, leaving Toshiba as the only company I'm aware of, that only sells minus drives.

Panasonic makes DVD-R/DVD-RAM drives. Not to mention Pioneers DVD-R only set top recorders.

Now as for the disc manufacturers, I know it firsthand that they root for the plus format,

You visited one plant, not many. Not to mention the countless DVD-R plants that only produce DVD-R media.

and while there aren't as many plants (that also has something to do with the time it takes to set up a production line.. the minus format has been around a lot longer), most brands offer both types of discs these days.

Completely false. A new DVD-R plant seems to be popping up everyday. MBI, Long Ten, Nanya,

The plus format is currently entering more households than the minus format. While retail burners are mostly dual format, OEM burners are mostly plus only, leading to an increased demand on plus media.
According to what spec? Panasonic currently owns 72% of all DVD recordable drive sales. That includes PC and set top home recorders. Were you aware that even DVD-RAM media is out selling both DVD+R and DVD+RW combined?

Add the availability of higher speed burning and you have a killer combination.
The DVD Forum has had the 8x spec since before June. This is when Ritek first presented the media for certification.

(and being entirely oblivious to the fact that they'll save themselves a lot of trouble because quality is generally higher in the plus format)
Compared to which brand? Princo? Considering Ricoh manufactures 90% of the DVD+R media, shouldn't you compare to a similar DVD-R product?

[erbuk]

Originally posted by disturbed1
Panasonic makes DVD-R/DVD-RAM drives. Not to mention Pioneers DVD-R only set top recorders.

http://www.dvd-recordable.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=731

Originally posted by disturbed1
…countless DVD-R plants that only produce DVD-R media…A new DVD-R plant seems to be popping up everyday…

You are exaggerating a bit there, aren’t you?

Originally posted by disturbed1
…Panasonic currently owns 72% of all DVD recordable drive sales...DVD-RAM media is out selling both DVD+R and DVD+RW combined?

Amazing, where did you find that info? Pioneer claims that they have 62% (of the world pc-drive-market 2002). And then we have Sony (that claims that they are the largest manufacturer 2003), NEC, Sanyo, LG, Lite-On, Ricoh, Samsung and so on. The Worldmarket must be very big :D

Originally posted by disturbed1
..Ricoh manufactures 90% of the DVD+R media…

Interesting, where did you find that info?

[alexnoe]

I don't get this. If the Princo discs are that bad then why do people use them in the comparsion between the formats and say that minus-discs are cheaper? With DVD-, you have the choince: use good, not so cheap media, or use cheap crappy discs.
With dvd+, you don't have that choice.

Did you note that I haven't claimed dvd- to be cheaper for quote some time? :D I didn't, because I don't consider Princo an option.
Or does "generally" mean inherently? If so, what is it that makes plus have better quality?The lack of all those trash manufacturers which did not yet enter the DVD+ market. The C'T once in a while makes media tests (burning discs in different drives and do all kind of measurements, on the blanks and on the burnt ones), and the disc with the lowest Focus Error, and the lowest Jitter, they've ever had was a Maxell 4x DVD-R.
The DVD Forum has had the 8x spec since before June. This kinda supports my claim that the release of those specs has been blocked

[erbuk]

Originally posted by alexnoe
With dvd+, you don't have that choice.

Can't say I agree with you (and who would have expected that :D ). The cheapest 4x discs that I have found in Europe (if you exclude temporary offers and very large packages) is 69p ($1,15) for Princo based -discs. The cheapest 4x +discs at the same store costs 91p ($1,34). In my mind thats not much of a difference if you don't burn hundreds of discs every week.

[alexnoe]

:eek: Never saw such prices here :eek:

[erbuk]

Just curious, what prices do you have in Germany? My german is not good enough to find the right web-stores.

The prices I refer to is from www.bigpockets.co.uk

[alexnoe]

For really good media, the prices are OK: Around 2,50 - 3,00 Euro for Mitsubishi 4x DVD+R and DVD-R media.

But most serious shops don't sell this unbranded bulqcrap stuff. Maybe 1,50 for dvd- is realistic. You can get it cheaper over ebay, if you are lucky. For DVD+, there are also disc for about 1,50, but the problem is actually to find those...

[erbuk]

Ok, personally I use 4x Ritek (Arita) +discs for £0,97/$1,61/€1,40 at bigpockets and I'm extremely pleased with the quality on those.

I think the Princos as acceptable for dvd-backups if I burn them at 2x. But when the difference in price is only 28p then it's not worth the trouble.

[jsl]

Originally posted by alexnoe
I have been told that hey are ready, but that Philips and Ricoh (which are of course members of the DVD forum) did not agree to launching those standards yet. (I wonder why...)


LOL, right. It sounds like pure rubbish from someone that doesn't like that DVD+R/RW is leading the speed race. Ricoh is not even in the steering committee of the DVDforum and the majority decides, hence Philips can do nothing.

Originally posted by alexnoe
Currently, about 4 manufacturers make DVD+ discs.


The following companies are all making DVD+R and/or DVD+RW media available now:
BeAll, CMC Magnetics, DataTrack, Daxon, Digital Disc Dessau, Infodisc, Maxell, Mitsubishi, Moser Baer, MPO Media, Nanya, Optodisc, Philips, Prodisc, Ricoh, Ritek, Sentinel, Sky Media, Taiyo Yuden and add a couple of "anonymous" (probably not license paying) companies as well as some manufacturers I probably forgot. And personally I'm just happy as long as the worst Hong Kong/Taiwan crap manufacturers stick to making DVD-R media :)

Originally posted by disturbed1

Panasonic currently owns 72% of all DVD recordable drive sales. That includes PC and set top home recorders. Were you aware that even DVD-RAM media is out selling both DVD+R and DVD+RW combined?


Ok I assume you got those numbers from Panasonic because they are completely wrong. DVD-RAM (mostly Panasonic) has a 56% world wide market share for standalone recorders in the last report I read but for PC drives DVD-RAM's/Panasonic's market share is more or less negligible.

Originally posted by disturbed1
Were you aware that even DVD-RAM media is out selling both DVD+R and DVD+RW combined?

Was that year 2001? Else feel free to provide a source because anyone with an insight in the DVD market realize that there is no way that could be true now.

[alexnoe]

LOL, right. It's sounds like pure rubbish from someone that doesn't like that DVD+R/RW is leading the speed race. Ricoh is not even in the steering committee of the DVDforum and the majority decides, hence Philips can do nothing. Every DVD+ manufacturer is member of the forum and has the right to veto, unless you want to tell me that you have more accurate information than someone who receives drives before their official releases to support them in a recording app (-> the one who told me that).

BTW, in case you want to start to run around saying 'you bought a dvd- drive and now are sour', I can assure you that this would be trollism. My dvr-a03 has recently started to die, and I need a new one soon...

All YOU have so far told is 'this is nonsense' to defend your position, while we have already heared that the dvd-8x standard has been ready since June, but has not yet been launched for a mystical reason... and seriously, having been blocked is more logical than 'this is nonsense'

Ah... and 70% of all drives can write dvd-, while only 50% can write dvd+ (meaning that quite a lot of drives are dual format). Source of that piece of information is the same.

And you still want to claim that dvd+ is leading anything? lol. For me, the + alliance are still those who boast with defect management on their main page without implementing it.
BeAll, CMC Magnetics, DataTrack, Daxon, Digital Disc Dessau, Infodisc, Maxell, Mitsubishi, Moser Baer, MPO Media, Nanya, Optodisc, Philips, Prodisc, Ricoh, Ritek, Sentinel, Sky Media, Taiyo Yuden And why are all discs Ricoh or Mitsubishi here then?
The number of discs which are Ricoh over here is indeed something like 90% of all DVD+ discs. TDK, Yakumo, Speer, Platinum... all those are Ricoh. The only Non-Ricoh over here are Verbatim (Mitsubishi), which are sold in a lower number than the others, because they are more expensive.

I don't know what kind of problem you have with dvd-ram, but the japanese market consists of dvd-r and dvd-ram.

[jsl]

Originally posted by alexnoe
Every DVD+ manufacturer is member of the forum and has the right to veto, unless you want to tell me that you have more accurate information than someone who receives drives before their official releases to support them in a recording app.

That's not the way DVDforum works. Tell your secret "source" to do some basic reading about the structure of the DVDforum...


Ah... and 70% of all drives can write dvd-, while only 50% can write dvd+ (meaning that quite a lot of drives are dual format). Source of that piece of information is the same.

% of what? And if the source is the same I trust that as much as the other nonsense.


And you still want to claim that dvd+ is leading anything? lol

People are already burning 8x DVD+R while 8x DVD-R drives will be out by Xmas time at best so yes I say DVD+R is leading the speed race.

And why are all discs Ricoh or Mitsubishi here then?
Are they? I'm not from Germany but I checked for example one German webshop, http://www.nierle-shop.de/, and found DVD+R/RW-media with mfr ID's from DataTrack, Digital Disc Dessau, "Media ID" (ie "anonymous"), Mitsubishi, Optodisc, Prodisc, Ricoh and Sentinel.

[Doom9]

You visited one plant, not many. True.. but when manufacturing expense is concerned they all think the same. If you can get me in touch with a plant owner who prefers DVD-R, I'll be glad to talk to him.

@alexnoe: I'm afraid you sound like a guy that needs to defend his buying decision. You are only speculating as to the delays of 8x DVD-Rs.. nobody has provided any facts here.. neither concerning the possibility of a veto, nor why if there is a veto, it has not been used for 4x burning. 4x DVD-Rs were available before 4x DVD+Rs, that is a fact. If the plus proponents had a veto in the DVD forum, I bet my DVD burner they'd have used it to get 4x DVD+R to the market before 4x DVD-R.

@disturbed: care to elaborate on this completely false statement. The number of plants has nothing to do with it. Today, even major brands often do not manufacture their discs.. And The DVD Forum has had the 8x spec since before June.Care to provide us with your source of info? Also.. what DVD burner do you have? Let me guess.. it's a DVD-R model, is it not? :devil:

@windtrater: I'm taking that info from c't media tests. In their last test they found that even Ritek G04s, which are generally be considered to be the best of the cheap brands, differ in quality and chances are that you get pretty bad G04s.

Why is it that every time you discuss the two DVD formats with someone who has invested in only one format, you run into a stonewall? Why do people feel the need to blindly defend their buying choice? Personally, I don't believe that we've seen the last of DVD-R in 2004.. I wouldn't even bet any money on any format dying out at this point. However, DVD+ is the technically superior format (see c't), it is cheaper to manufacture (see c't), and it's prefered by the big computer OEMs (no1 and 2 in the market, HP and Dell both ship computers with DVD+ drives), so if I were forced to decide between the formats, I'd pick DVD+. However, since I don't have to make that decision, I'm happy with my selection of DVD burners (A05 and DRU500a) which allow me to use both type of media and I'll buy my media in function of price and quality. Last time I got a 25 pack of G04s and next time I might try out the Verbatim 4x DVD+Rs which are pretty cheap at Meritline. My first 8x burner will definitely be a dual format burner as well, so no matter what the future will bring, I'll be prepared and I won't have to be bitter each time a magazine writes anything good or bad about any format.

[alexnoe]

That's not the way DVDforum works. Tell your secret "source" to do some basic reading about the structure of the DVDforum... or do you think that official papers of Princo tell you that they faked manufacturer IDs? I hope you don't speak about official papers.... they would just contain what they want us to think ;) People are already burning 8x DVD+R while 8x DVD-R drives will be out by Xmas time at best so yes I say DVD+R is leading the speed race. /me is drooling

The Pioneer A07 is scheduled for november. Mh... maybe you celebrate Christmas in november, but I don't. And unless your skills in temporal mechanics are far better than mine, you can impossibly claim to know that this will not be released by november.

Furthermore, you kinda missed that this is 8x burning on 4x media and is NOT connected to any kind of standard... DVD+R is currently leading the race for speed in burning using some hack (which, as the C'T has found, ONLY works properly on Mitsubishi 4x discs at the moment, which is better than nothing, but not much) like Pioneer did for 2x on 1x discs. Strange. They hack 8x burning on 4x discs instead of implementing defect management and instead of improving the reliability of data on dvd+rw discs which are used for backup purposes :sly:
http://www.nierle-shop.de/ This is the shop which dared to sell VIVASTAR dvd-r media. Did anyone check if DVD+ like DDD or Optodisc deserves being called 'media'? I do not speak about round things that have a 'dvd+r' logo on them, but merely about discs that follow some specs (no, i don't claim vivastar or princo dvd-r/w discs to be 'dvd-r/w discs' either).
@windtrater: I'm taking that info from c't media tests. In their last test they found that even Ritek G04s, which are generally be considered to be the best of the cheap brands, differ in quality and chances are that you get pretty bad G04s.It is assumed that Ritek is overproducing media, i.e. running their plants a bit too hot (if Mitsubishi does not produce enough for example, then there is a lack of discs.... )
@alexnoe: I'm afraid you sound like a guy that needs to defend his buying decision. You are only speculating as to the delays of 8x DVD-Rs.. nobody has provided any facts here.. neither concerning the possibility of a veto, nor why if there is a veto, it has not been used for 4x burning. 4x DVD-Rs were available before 4x DVD+Rs, that is a fact. If the plus proponents had a veto in the DVD forum, I bet my DVD burner they'd have used it to get 4x DVD+R to the market before 4x DVD-R.All I want is that people don't let themselves be fooled by some DVD+ propaganda. Up to this very moment, the DVD+ alliance has not done anything useful, except for rewrite speeds! Defect management would be useful, in connection with e.g. CAV mode for random access usage! Instead of propagading it, they could just implement it (and I would use it!).
However, DVD+ is the technically superior format (see c't), it is cheaper to manufacture (see c't), As I've already explained, Mitsubishi already knows how to compensate for the production cost issue. You can safely stop using the 'dvd-r is more expensive to make' argument...
The DVD Forum has had the 8x spec since before June.IF this can be proven, then my claim that 8x dvd-r has artificially been delayed would be the logical consequence from the fact that those specs have not been launched.

[jsl]

Originally posted by alexnoe

The Pioneer A07 is scheduled for november.

"scheduled" and "released" are 2 different things, (quote from you from an old thread :) )...


They hack 8x burning on 4x discs instead of implementing defect management and instead of improving the reliability of data on dvd+rw discs which are used for backup purposes :sly:

The Plextor should support defect management else I doubt they could claim support for DVD+MRW (Mt. Rainier).


This is the shop which dared to sell VIVASTAR dvd-r media. Did anyone check if DVD+ like DDD or Optodisc deserves being called 'media'? I do not speak about round things that have a 'dvd+r' logo on them, but merely about discs that follow some specs (no, i don't claim vivastar or princo dvd-r/w discs to be 'dvd-r/w discs' either).

Ok now I really miss your point. You claimed that there are no DVD+R/RW media available from other manufacturers than Ricoh and MCC and I proved you were wrong (again). So now you change your statement to "quality media" :D But please name all the "alexnoe certified" DVD-R/RW manufacturers that are not making DVD+R/RW media then...

/EOD for me.

[alexnoe]

The Plextor should support defect management else I doubt they could claim support for DVD+MRW (Mt. Rainier). Does DVD+MRW automatically include defect management? Then all I need is a stable (not bsodding) software to use this (no, not InCD *g*) and my next drive is that plextor :) That would then mean that it did take no longer than almost 2 years to implement this feature, counted from the point in time where it was first used for advertising purposes :D
Ok now I really miss your point. Of course you do.... the reason is that you have a dvd+ drive :D .
So now you change your statement to "quality media" Wrong. Have you ever heard something about specs, and what they are good for? I'm sure you haven't...

If a round thing of an diameter of 120 mm does not follow the CD-DA specs, then it is no Audio-CD (such as 'protected audio CDs'). If a CD contains double sector numbers, such as 'protected by Tagès' or, or caused by the Twinsector trick to copy SecuROM new without a plextor premium, then it is not even a CD, even though it looks and smells like one. If the start-of-leadout entry in the TOC points at a position before the beginning of the first track, such as on some 'Cactus 200 >audio< CDs', then it is not only no audio-cd, but no CD at all.

The same way, it is not a DVD- discs if the phase shift of the land pre pits of off by more than pi/18 (like on princo 1x and princo 2x), and is not a dvd+ disc if it does not follow whatever parameters there have been defined for dvd+ discs (i'm sure maximum radial runout, focus error and such things are defined).

If you want to say that any round thing with 'dvd+' on it is a dvd+, then this is really nice. It will drastically decrease the average quality of 'dvd + media', with each crap disc manufacturer that makes discs and calls them dvd+ :D

[Doom9]

IF this can be proven, then my claim that 8x dvd-r has artificially been delayed would be the logical consequence from the fact that those specs have not been launched.Until then it's an unfounded rumour spread by people who hate the plus format :P Let's stick to the facts, shall we? Fact is nobody prevented 4x DVD-Rs to be released before 4x DVD+Rs. Fact is that the specs for 8x DVD+Rs are out.

As I've already explained, Mitsubishi already knows how to compensate for the production cost issue. You can safely stop using the 'dvd-r is more expensive to make' argument...
And your link clearly stated that this technology is not yet available. Neither is (afaik) technology that makes the CSS ring burning process unnecessary (c't reported that this was in the works as well.. but if it were available I'm sure the technical manager I spoke to would've considered that when making statements about media preference (they were setting up 4x production lines for both media types at that time)).

And I take my 2.5" portable HD over any RW media any day.. no worries about defect management there ;)

All I want is that people don't let themselves be fooled by some DVD+ propaganda. Up to this very moment, the DVD+ alliance has not done anything useful, except for rewrite speeds! And how is the DVD- camp better towards that respect?

[alexnoe]

And your link clearly stated that this technology is not yet available. Neither is (afaik) technology that makes the CSS ring burning process unnecessaryThat's not true. The dvd forum has shot itself into their feet in this point. They have defined that this is necessary, for some copy protection crap (actually, people have already made jokes about the RIAA sueing DVD+ for leaving the theoretical possibility of copying CSS protected DVSs without decoding it *only* by cracking the firmware).

History: Pioneer was technically able to launch the DVR-A03 one year earlier than they actually did. This one year delay came from Hollywood... you can probably imagine the rest.

And how is the DVD- camp better towards that respect?They don't use features for advertising purposes before they are implemented or at least scheduled to be implemented (they announced software based defect management, based on UDF 2.0, with the A06 recorder, and implemented it with the A06 recorder, just to give on example).

[Doom9]

That's not true.I think we have a misunderstanding there. It's still necessary to have that ring, however to my knowledge it is technically possible to have that ring as part of the production line, not as a separate manual process after the disc has been produced. Once a DVD-R disc comes out of the production line, it does not have that ring yet (that I know for a fact since I've actually visited a plant).

[alexnoe]

Yes. The Ring has to be burnt separately. But there is no technical reason which makes this the only solution. The problem is, if the standard says the ring is to be burnt, then it is to be burnt.

That ring is nothing else than the area where pressed discs contain the CSS decryption code. If this were not made unburnable, a hacked firmware could write CSS encrypted DVDs. That's all.

[erbuk]

Minus or plus, who cares (well obviously a few people do :p). But does anyone agree that there is no longer any need for two formats from our, the consumers, point of view. The format war was perfect for bringing the prices down on burners and media (competition is always good). But now when the prices are close to the bottom then I don't see any need for this anymore.

And I doubt that the manufacturers do either. I'm sure that companies like Verbatim would rather concentrate on one format to get more cost effective production.

[alexnoe]

Tell that those people who have a dvd player that reads only dvd- or only dvd+ (or, even more weird, dvd-r, dvd-rw, dvd+rw, but no dvd+r...)

[erbuk]

That's not more strange than most older music-cd-players can't play cd-rw:s or in many cases not even cd-r. Or that new videoplayers can't play your old betamax tapes.

If your dvd-player can't handle R-discs and you are planning on buying a (new) dvd-burner then it's time to have it replaced anyway.

[alexnoe]

That's not more strange than most older music-cd-players can't play cd-rw:s CD-RWs have a reflexivity which is poor, compared to cd-r/rom. CD Drives must be designed to read cd-rw. These drives are called 'multi read compatible'. Typical 24x cd-rom drives can read those, typical 16x cd-rom drives can't.
The comparision to cd-rw media is invalid.

[erbuk]

Yes of course, but that's not my point. The point is that if you want to use new kinds of media then you must be prepared to upgrade your equipment. I could just as well have mentioned s-vhs tapes that you can't play on most standard vhs-players. Or if you want to watch digital-tv then you have to get yourself a dvb-reciever. That's life in the world of new technolgy.

[ronnylov]

Originally posted by alexnoe
Tell that those people who have a dvd player that reads only dvd- or only dvd+ (or, even more weird, dvd-r, dvd-rw, dvd+rw, but no dvd+r...)

This is the main reason to get a dual format burner. If you don't own a burner yet then it's hard to know exactly what format and what disc brand your player can handle. There is no reason you must buy both a new burner and a new player if your player can support any of the formats your burner can handle. If you already have a dvd-r/rw burner and know that -r/rw discs work well, why take the chance and buy a +r/rw format only burner when you upgrade?

I have a Pioneer A04 DVD-R/RW burner but next time I'll upgrade (probably one year from now if it does not break before) then I'll get a dual format burner because I know what dvd-r discs I can use but I also want the option to choose +r/rw discs to get more choices.

My biggest concern is the quality and the compability of the media today. I want my discs to work in old as well as new players and so far I got the best compability with RitekG04 discs but the quality in k-probe differs. I got my best quality results yet from a Fujifilm 2x tayoyuden dvd-r disc in k-probe, but the compability was bad because it did not work in one of my older DVD-ROM units but the ritek discs did work in all players and they were cheaper too. I want discs that works in most players and still has good quality but a reasonable price. I hope quality and compability will improve with newer high speed discs and newer burners.

Looking at the database of dvd players on dvdhelp.com I got following results when searching after all players supporting each format:

DVD-R:
1684 DVD Players support DVDR 91%
159 DVD Players do not support DVDR 9%
1843 DVD Players tested (1130 DVD Players are not tested).

DVD+R:
1233 DVD Players support DVDPLUSR 86%
200 DVD Players do not support DVDPLUSR 14%
1433 DVD Players tested (1540 DVD Players are not tested).

DVD-RW:
1083 DVD Players support DVDRW 75%
365 DVD Players do not support DVDRW 25%
1448 DVD Players tested (1525 DVD Players are not tested).

DVD+RW:
1070 DVD Players support DVDPLUSRW 74%
369 DVD Players do not support DVDPLUSRW 26%
1439 DVD Players tested (1534 DVD Players are not tested).

DVD-RAM:
29 DVD Players support DVDRAM 19%
127 DVD Players do not support DVDRAM 81%
156 DVD Players tested (2817 DVD Players are not tested).

CD-R:
2027 DVD Players support CDR 88%
265 DVD Players do not support CDR 12%
2292 DVD Players tested (681 DVD Players are not tested).

CD-RW:
1953 DVD Players support CDRW 92%
175 DVD Players do not support CDRW 8%
2128 DVD Players tested (845 DVD Players are not tested).


Compability ranking taken from the results above:
1) CD-RW 92%
2) DVD-R 91%
3) CD-R 88%
4) DVD+R 86%
5) DVD-RW 75%
6) DVD+RW 74%
7) DVD-RAM 19%


The conclusion is that there are no big differencies in compability between dvd+r and dvd-r. Neither there are no big compability differences between dvd+rw and dvd-rw. The "minus" format has a slightly better compability right now but this may change in the future and the differencies are not big anyway. But looking at individual players there are many players that don't support all the formats. If I had to choose only one of the formats I would choose dvd-r because of the better compability.

It's a little bit strange that the dvd+rw organisation claims the plus format to be a more compatible format because in reality it is not according to dvdrhelp's dvd player database. In what way is the "plus" format more compatible if it does not work in as many players as the "minus" format?

[coona]

I have red compatibility test on DVDHELP.com and in my opinion "bad" results for +R format result from often incompatibility with Pioneer players. That could be the answer :).

OK I have +R burner but I´m not stuck with it :D.

[alexnoe]

In what way is the "plus" format more compatible if it does not work in as many players as the "minus" format?Ask owners of DVD+ drives :)
I have red compatibility test on DVDHELP.com and in my opinion "bad" results for +R format result from often incompatibility with Pioneer players. That could be the answerBut why is only R affected, and not RW? :confused: