Matroska public alpha release date : 1st May 2003

[Belgabor]

Originally posted by robUx4
Matroska allow any track to be of any variable rate, but VDubMod may not be able to do that for matroska yet. It should tell you it's impossible when saving (to AVI), not loading.

VDubMod kinda can write variable frame rate. According to Cyrius dropped frames are not written. (O.K., its limited ;))

[bill_baroud]

so if i understand well =)

if you have a 120fps clip with 24/30fps mixed part, it will be muxed in a mkv w/o the help of dropped frames and with a sort of VFR ?

it's a _really_ good news O_o

[cca]

I don't remember if anyone mentioned it but so far with the limited success I had with .mkv files I was never able to achieve perfectly smooth playback, the plays jerky. I think these basic problems should be solved before the implementation of features such as XCD suppor, audio stream switcher, chaptering etc.

[Atamido]

That depends on how the 120fps video is created. If it is created where the duplicate frames were just saved as dropped frames in AVI, then yes it would be vfr. If the duplicate frames were actually saved by placing a duplicate frame in the video stream, then it would just be saved as 120fps constant frame rate.

I don't really know how they save the video though as I have no experience with those hybrid videos.

@Belgabor: Any idea what happens when you open an MKV that doesn't contain the dropped frames in VirtualDubMod?

[Gaia]

Originally posted by cca
I don't remember if anyone mentioned it but so far with the limited success I had with .mkv files I was never able to achieve perfectly smooth playback, the plays jerky. I think these basic problems should be solved before the implementation of features such as XCD suppor, audio stream switcher, chaptering etc.

Yeah and dshow filter have to work in every OS. Not just XP and W2K.

[Atamido]

Make sure to install the latest filter as it fixes several issues.

One person has mentioned jerkiness at very high bitrates. I have seen none with the new filter.

The Windows 98 compatability issue appears to only be because of the Unicode support in the DS Filter, which the 9x series didn't support. As robUx4 stated earlier, they will try to recompile it without unicode so that it works properly in Windows 9x.

One other thing, if you have jerky playback, or the seekbar isn't working, then you are likely using the old filter. Last I checked, the TCMP installer has the old version of the filter, so if you install this, you will need to re-register the new filter.

[robUx4]

Originally posted by Pamel
One other thing, if you have jerky playback, or the seekbar isn't working, then you are likely using the old filter. Last I checked, the TCMP installer has the old version of the filter, so if you install this, you will need to re-register the new filter.

Good advice !!!

[robUx4]

Originally posted by Gaia
Yeah and dshow filter have to work in every OS. Not just XP and W2K.

Try this : http://www.matroska.org/downloads/mkxds-0.4.0-W98.zip

Don't use it under W2K/XP otherwise it will kill your HD, processor, memory, power supply and might even kill you in the process.

[Suiryc]

Originally posted by bill_baroud
so if i understand well =)

if you have a 120fps clip with 24/30fps mixed part, it will be muxed in a mkv w/o the help of dropped frames and with a sort of VFR ?

it's a _really_ good news O_o
Yes according to the code I wrote :p and what I know about VDub dropped frames won't be written in the output mkv file (no problem here since matroska is based on timecodes). So your 120fps clip which contains dropped frames would become a Variable FrameRate matroska file.

Now for the moment I have to assume constant framerate in VirtualDubMod (since VirtualDub only handle Constant framerate). So when you reopen the file I rely on the (informational only) Framerate indicated in the matroska file (which is 120fps) and this make that VirtualDubMod should reopen your matroska file as your original clip (i.e. a 120fps clip containing dropped frames).

Of course all of this is theory, since I don't have 120fps clips with dropped frames :p

[Gaia]

Originally posted by robUx4
Try this : http://www.matroska.org/downloads/mkxds-0.4.0-W98.zip

Don't use it under W2K/XP otherwise it will kill your HD, processor, memory, power supply and might even kill you in the process.

It works fine:)It acts strange then you seek but i think it's the effect everybody is talking about.

[bond]

which version should be used in winME?

[Ramirez]

Confirming jerky playback problem, XVID 1000kbps/128kbps Vorbis. DShow filter is current/properly registered.

[ssjkakaroto]

not taking in account all the problems people are having with playback and stuff is it ok to start archiving in matroska yet or are these problems are somewhat related to the file itself too?

tia

[haibane]

Originally posted by Suiryc
Yes according to the code I wrote :p and what I know about VDub dropped frames won't be written in the output mkv file (no problem here since matroska is based on timecodes). So your 120fps clip which contains dropped frames would become a Variable FrameRate matroska file.

Now for the moment I have to assume constant framerate in VirtualDubMod (since VirtualDub only handle Constant framerate). So when you reopen the file I rely on the (informational only) Framerate indicated in the matroska file (which is 120fps) and this make that VirtualDubMod should reopen your matroska file as your original clip (i.e. a 120fps clip containing dropped frames).

Of course all of this is theory, since I don't have 120fps clips with dropped frames :p


I mux a 120FPS clip with drop frame into a mkv file, the file itself plays fine. But when I try to reopen the file with VDM(of course the new version), the virtualdubmod crashed, while it didn't happen to my other mkv files. The 120FPS file was encoded with xvid + 1 track of ac3.

[Atamido]

@bond: Use the 98 version.

@ssjkakaroto: Any problems mentioned so far should be the DirectShow filter.

@Matroska Team: Does the jerkiness have anything to do with the Vorbis DS filter not sending quality reports back to the matroska filter?

[Ramirez]

This time is WMV9 950kbps/AC3 audio track, the problem still persist.
AC3Filter used for decoding.

[cca]

My mistake, when I said I have jerky playback I should have mentioned that I do indeed use the latest filter (0.4.0) in WinXP. The problem is not only with Vorbis as I tried with AC3 also. But I want to believe that these are just infancy problems!

[robUx4]

Originally posted by ssjkakaroto
not taking in account all the problems people are having with playback and stuff is it ok to start archiving in matroska yet or are these problems are somewhat related to the file itself too?

tia

Yes, it's safe. As you can see, the new filter can play files done with the same VDubMod version, and also the Linux tools :) The current problems are only playback problems. We will correct them one by one.

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by Pamel

@Matroska Team: Does the jerkiness have anything to do with the Vorbis DS filter not sending quality reports back to the matroska filter?

nope, but instead the buffers of the output pins of the demuxer I think...

[CaptainCarrot]

About the jerkyness: If you play a divx or xvid-file with fddshow, you can have a look at the actual framerate by popping up the info-tab in the fddshow properties. With matroska-files the framerate is rapidly changing in ranges of 15-50 fps (you can hardly make it out since the framerate for every single frame is shown, but sometimes the first digit is a 1, sometimes a 5). When I put the same videostream in an avi-container, the framerate is still not stable, but between 20-25 fps, which is less jerky. I'm using video-only-streams for this tests.
A sidenote: the playback looks less jerky than with the last dshow-filter, but the numbers in fddshow have actually gotten worse: they were from 15-35 with the old (0.3.1) one.

regards

[ChristianHJW]

The jerky playback seems to occur for bitrates > 1000 kbps ( roughly ) ... we look into this, mainly buffer sizes ...

[Blueseb]

today i had a play-time with this brand new toy :p usin' vdubmod 1511a i remuxed a 1-cd xvid video with up to 2 vorbis tracks and up to 3 srt tracks;

highs: overhead!
ogm: 719425 KB - mkv: 714173 KB :D more than 5 MB gained!!!

lows:
multiple audio switching doesn't work (obviously:not yet implemented :p ), but when using player's internal audio switching (mpc&zp) playback freezes after few seconds, seek will unfreeze but still hanging after a bunch of seconds.

dvobsub works fine but won't autoload :confused:, i had to select 'always load' in its preferences.

many thanks to all you guys, your work is kinda delightful to me ;)

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by JuanCC
Any fix for jerky plays?
As said on another thread here, its a stupid little bug that was introduced in latest filter, expect a fix beginning of next week, together with some other fixes ...

[ChristianHJW]

We have AAC working in matroska, thanks to Toff :) !

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=314770#post314770

More details later ...

[GIR]

Try this : http://www.matroska.org/downloads/mkxds-0.4.0-W98.zip

Don't use it under W2K/XP otherwise it will kill your HD, processor, memory, power supply and might even kill you in the process.

OMG!!! are you serious??? I installed the filter last week on my Duron 600 running W98 (I know you said W2K/XP) I then created a mkv in vdub from an avi to test, I opened it up in WMP6.4 and tested the seeking, first time worked with a bit of pixelation, second time worked as well except after a few seconds my PC froze, when I reset my PC would not boot :( I assumed it was either the CPU or the memory causing the prob so I took both down to the computer shop and the CPU was toast!! but when I tested a Duron 850 the MB was found to be faulty also!! so now I have an Athlon 2200 and I'm still running W98, but I am bit concerned about using the DSF at this point I don’t want to fry my new CPU also, it could just be a weird coincidence as I've never known any software to cause such a problem, and I had been working my CPU pretty hard leaving it on for 23hrs compressing SouthPark eps two days earlier, though that task will be alot quicker now :) this new CPU is damn fast, cuts through any digital task like a hot knife in butter :)

[Rasi]

hmm strangely something similar happened here :P

my hardware hopefully still is ok... but since i made a test mkv file i cant play any video content anymore... it either needs 100% cpu load or has blocks all over.. (but the file definately is fine, as the rar archive has valid crc) ... seeking isnt possible either...

dunno if it has anything to do with it, it would surprise me really :P

but point of time is perfect

[ChristianHJW]

The DSF can certainly not harm your CPU's guys ... make it like Winnie The Poo : 'Think, Think, Think ...' ;) .... or do you guys believe that M$ DirectShow would allow any elements of it to kill hardware :O ??

[robUx4]

Yes, that was just a joke to say that the preferred DSF under W2K/XP is the original one. There is NO reason why the DSF would kill any hardware.

[vinouz]

BTW, I've compared mkv files made with virtualdub with OGM ones. Ogm always comes with less overhead. How does it happens some have the opposite scenario ? (ex. BlueSeb)

(to obtain these files I simply converted 'old' divx/xvid avi files both in OGM & MKV. They contain 1 audio track (VBR mp3) and 1 video track. It also did the same when converting OGM with vorbis audio to mkv...)

V.

[ChristianHJW]

New filter is out : http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=315391#post315391

[duartix]

Boy, talk about cross-posting...
:D :D :D

Anyway, thank you!

[Atamido]

There are a couple of reasons that the files could be larger. First, the longer the file, the more efficient MKV becomes. So, if you make a 10 second test file, then OGM will probably be a little smaller.

After that, the efficiency depends on the number of blocks, how big each frame is, the number of tracks, how big of a cluster you use, if you use lacing, and if you use any of the special features like Tags.

[vinouz]

Tried it both on small clips for ultralow bitrates (these with vorbis sound @q-1) : ogm~=660kb mkv~=750kb (made with vdubmod)
then on 'normal' dvd backups. very small difference (<.1%...) between mkv and ogm, in favor of ogm. it was xvid/mp3(1 track, abr128), previously made with vdub, repacked with vdubmod.
So I can't tell for the inner matroska settings, but that these were the defaults one made by vdub for the big ones, by vdubmod for the small ones (as I reencoded both audio and video then muxed them, with vdubmod).

The fact is that I was waiting for ogm to be winning on ultralow bitrates (~100kbit/s audio+video), but mkv to gain on dvd backups.
Anyways the fact is that I tried this on the first 10% (~70mb) of the dvdrip. Maybe if I had done it completely, I would have started to see mkv taking on ogm).

Will try to repack the full rip. But I was really astonished by the enormous difference between ogm and mkv at ultralow bitrates (>10% by far). Is mkv header that big ! ??

V.

[spyder]

I'm thinking maybe the mp3 frames are not correctly placed in matroska...I could not tell though, Cyrius will know. :)

[robUx4]

For sure matroska is not ace for ultra low bitrates. But for the other bitrate you mention it should have no problem to beat OGM. What is the frame rate you use ?

[Cantide]

Hi,
I converted a few DVD's to .mkv recently (xvid+vorbis) and filesize was lower for matroska compared to ogg.
movie length ~110min
one audio stream ~64kbps
encoded on 1CD
.ogm 699MB
.mkv 696MB

I haven't tested on shorter clips though.

Cheers
Cantide

[vinouz]

OK. Now did the same test with the same video, but took the full film.

Finally mkv is way under ogm, halfway under avi (WAY meaning 4.5mb on 653, so under 1%, but the double as what ogm gained over avi...)

The numbers :
"Les rivières pourpres"
(Divx4.12)
640x272@25fps
152107 frames
+ mp3 track avg 119kbit/s

original AVI : 675402kb
vdubmod ogm : 673695kb (-1.7mb over avi)
vdubmod mkv : 669234kb (-6.1mb over avi)

Thanks Guys !

NB. : still using the second release of the filter. At the end of the dub, vdubmod took 1mn to get back to its normal state. I first thought it had hung.

V.

[Teegedeck]

Just to give some positive feedback: The 0.41-filter works fine for me; B-frames, VBR-MP3, AC3... I buried AVI a in quiet corner of our backyard, now.

[vinouz]

Yep. Works fine. Except the frame rate seems to be quite irregular.
But after 10 mn I had forgotten it (and I ate the entire movie. gotta go working !).

V.

[jcsston]

I have a new release of the TCMP Matroska CDL, with support for... Tag Reading and Writing :D
I've also corrected many bugs from the previous version.
TCMP Matroska CDL v1.1 (http://matroska.sourceforge.net/downloads/MatroskaCDL.v1.1.exe)

Please note that currently if the file doesn't already have a Tags element the tags will not save. (If it takes a long time for the File Infomation to load, the file very likely doesn't have a Tags element) VirtualDubMod does write the Tags element but mkvtoolnix/mkvmerge v0.4.1 does not.

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by jcsston
I have a new release of the TCMP Matroska CDL, with support for... Tag Reading and Writing :D
I've also corrected many bugs from the previous version.
TCMP Matroska CDL v1.1 (http://matroska.sourceforge.net/downloads/MatroskaCDL.v1.1.exe)

Please note that currently if the file doesn't already have a Tags element the tags will not save. (If it takes a long time for the File Infomation to load, the file very likely doesn't have a Tags element) VirtualDubMod does write the Tags element but mkvtoolnix/mkvmerge v0.4.1 does not.

Congrats :D

hmm is that with the new API I'm modifying or the API == 100 ?

[jcsston]

Originally posted by BlackSun
hmm is that with the new API I'm modifying or the API == 100 ? The TCMP RC3 CDL API

[pirata]

Hi everybody.

With the advent of Matroska, you can enhance your DVD backups with additional audio tracks, which can be really useful if you have to learn a language that's not bundled in the DVDs sold in your country.

Until now, I'd probably found an audio track in, say italian (25fps) for my movie (23.976). Since the container was OGM, I'd have to reencode to OGG for the sake of playability -it is so in my system, maybe not in yours-. In the reencoding, I'd convert from 25 to 23.976. It would take time and efforts.

But, I can use the track as is, be it VBR/CBR MP3, AC3, OGG or MPC. I don't have to reencode, so the last remaining problem is the frame rate difference.

My plan is to multiplex the video and the audio tracks without altering them, keeping the original qualities and frame rates (and not bothering with any time-consuming conversion of any type). On mux time you do synching for all audio tracks as needed (i.e. set the video track from 23.976 to 25 and mux with italian audio; experiment with delays until synch is achieved; afterwards mux video at 23.976 and italian track at 25fps with found delay). Then, on playback time, you select the frame rate of the video channel to fit that of the audio track currently being played. Note that the rate at which the audio track is played would is its original rate. The changes on playback time affect only the video track. I hope matroska, with its time stamps, can deal with this.

Here is my question: is there the possibility, either in Windows (be it using some trick with Zoom Player, TCMP or some Directshow filter) or in Linux (mPlayer)


Thanks

[Rasi]

i dont know if its possible, but this is a great idea in fact!

[robUx4]

Originally posted by Rasi
i dont know if its possible, but this is a great idea in fact!

Audio doesn't have an FPS, so it's not really a problem... Anyway, yes you can remux a complete Matroska file without needing to reencode video and audio... VDubMob can do that and mkvmerge too.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by pirata Then, on playback time, you select the frame rate of the video channel to fit that of the audio track currently being played. Note that the rate at which the audio track is played would is its original rate. The changes on playback time affect only the video track. I hope matroska, with its time stamps, can deal with this.
Here is my question: is there the possibility, either in Windows (be it using some trick with Zoom Player, TCMP or some Directshow filter) or in Linux (mPlayer)

Sorry, but i guess that timestamps may even be a problem here instaed of helping, as the duration of a 23.97 fps movie and a 25 fps movie are different in most cases ( thats why you have to change the sound duration in Cooledit or the like to make it match ).

In short, to allow what you are wanting to achieve you had to rewrite every single timestamp of the video stream blocks before playing them, thus accelerating playback speed of the video.

The only thing that may be possible to achieve that was a trick in the parser to search for different video and audio timestamps, putting a lot of stress on the media where you have the movie on, so it wont work with CD for sure. I dont say it cant be done, but its at least very very tricky ;) ....

[Rasi]

yep.. christian is right there.. thats why european movies are always a little shorter than US ones (or was it the other way round?)

means if you have a original ntsc source of a movie and want to mux a pal version-soundtrack to it it will be too short... or too long

[robUx4]

I still don't get it...

How would 100 mins of video at 23.97 fps muxed with 100 mins of video at 25 fps could end up having a different duration ?!!!

[pirata]

@ChristianHJW:

is it so difficult to recreate the time stamps of the video stream blocks in real time for the new fps? How difficult? Could it destroy fluid real time playback? It seems a matter of computing the timestamp of the frames played at X fps, letting the time stamps of each audio stream as they are... I know I am an ignorant user, but it seems easy to do... please, enlightt me, Christian!

[Rasi]

I still don't get it...

How would 100 mins of video at 23.97 fps muxed with 100 mins of video at 25 fps could end up having a different duration ?!!!


cause the pal version of the same movie will not be 100 minutes anymore.. will more be like 102 minutes