Matroska public alpha release date : 1st May 2003

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by spyder
MatroskaDub is only a test version for development of Matroska. Once we release it will become a part of VirtualDubMod.

Sometimes it's called MooDub :D Shame on me.

[Atamido]

6 days and counting.

[frodoontop]

I am counting with you....:)

[Atamido]

I just posted the specs for the tags in Matroska. (http://cvs.corecodec.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/matroska/doc/website/specs/matroskatags.html?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/html) These are the same type of thing as ID3v2 (http://www.id3.org) tags in MP3's, and in fact the specs make direct reference to many of the ID3 tags for a better understanding of what they contain. There were also tags pulled from RIFF, APE, and WMP9. They contain information about the file such as song name, singer, author, etc. This is an initial version and has many minor mistakes, and a few fields that aren't filled out, but this list is nearly complete and should provide an excellent view of what they will look like finalized. This list is extensive, and there are several tags that will rarely be used, but we wanted to support importing tags from most file types. We have also tried to minimize having lots of never-used tags by using a structuring system.

I would ask the help of the community in looking over these tags to see if there are any missing that you might use. Please also look at the tags and let me know if you have questions regarding any of the descriptions. Avoid commenting on spelling and other minor corrections as those will be fixed soon.

Thank you.

[BlackSun]

nice work pamel ;)

[ChristianHJW]

Pamel, should we think of starting a new thread for that ? I guess many relevant people who could help may no read this thread here ?

[Atamido]

Yes, if you think that is appropriate.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Pamel
Yes, if you think that is appropriate. .. yes i do ...

[midiguy]

hey.. I don't know much about this container format, but my question is, quite simply, will I be able to stream video from vfw codecs in this container? will this be available on may 1st? what about progressive download and play? is that supported?

sorry about the newb questions..

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by midiguy will I be able to stream video from vfw codecs in this container?

Yes, matroska has a VfW compatibility mode, so you can store any VfW video stream in it. Only problem here is that we dont have a streaming server solution yet, but robux4 has some nice plans in this respect, especially to make UDP streaming possible ( HTTP is comparably easy to do ).

will this be available on may 1st? what about progressive download and play? is that supported ?

We wont have a UDP streaming server solution until May 1st, thats for sure, but maybe the Corecodec Team will have HTTP streaming in TCMP until then, we'll see ...

[ChristianHJW]

Announcement :

We decided to have a feature freeze by the end of today ( GMT ) to be able to test all the available stuff until May 1st ... its not certain if the meta seeking in the Dshow filter will be available by then :( ... but rest assured this will very probably be the first update of the filter once its out ;) ...

[empty]

Only a few days.... :)
And then will I have my very own container. :)
I love you all! :)
Let's go for the matroska-dance! ;)

bb empty

[alexnoe]

I've just noticed something about the name: Is the official name матрёшка or matroska? It would have quite some influence on the "correct" pronounciation...(english people often damage words until they can pronounce them...i don't)

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by empty
Let's go for the matroska-dance! ;)


define :D

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by alexnoe
I've just noticed something about the name: Is the official name матрёшка or matroska? It would have quite some influence on the "correct" pronounciation...(english people often damage words until they can pronounce them...i don't)

yes, you're right, the original translation of the russian word ( cyrillic letters ) into roman letters was

'matryoshka'

and we felt thats too difficult for the english speaking part of the world, thats why we created the 'artificial' word 'matroska'. Only problem here is we didnt check if this word has a real meaning in Russian again, and it does ( saiilor's wife or shirt ) :D ... LOL !!

[alexnoe]

Does german and english use different transcription rules?

According to the transcription rules I know, if you write an y, then it usually resembles a ы , which is almost funny (a ы is something between i and ü), while an sh is an ж , not a ш .

I hate such transcriptions :( I'm pretty new to the russian language (started to learn it not long ago), but that much I've already learnt: never try to transcript these alphabets into each other; it will automatically be wrong. Sometimes the words turn out wrong, or even 2 completely different words are suddenly the same (e.g. брат <-> брать ) :(

[robUx4]

Originally posted by alexnoe
I hate such transcriptions :( I'm pretty new to the russian language (started to learn it not long ago), but that much I've already learnt: never try to transcript these alphabets into each other; it will automatically be wrong. Sometimes the words turn out wrong, or even 2 completely different words are suddenly the same (e.g. брат <-> брать ) :( [/B]

That's why we made it wrong on purpose :D

[Nic]

Spent a small part of the weekend looking through the matroska code. Its very professional (& very complex ;) ). Although C++ template code can be a pain to read ;)

Good luck, ill get the code out on May 1st and try make something useful with it :)

-Nic

[crusty]

Just a silly question:

What kind of tool will be available to use it with?
Will it be in the form of an avisynth or vdub filter, or will it be like oggmux/oggcut/avimux ?

I just hope the documentation won't be just in russian :D
I only know Da, Njet, Perestrojka, Glasnost, and, off course, Wodka.:)

On a more serious note:
I think after may 1st stability and compatability should be a bigger concern than the adding off more features. Ogm, avi and mp4 are all suffering from compatability problems more than feature problems (in my view). Being a stable container that's fully compatible accross all platforms will surely be a big boost for matroska.
Kudos to the 'sailor's wife or shirt' team.:p

[Atamido]

Before May 1st, stability is the main concern. They are working on a DirectShow filter that can Play, Pause, and Seek. Once they have those all working properly, then they will worry about other stuff. For instance, Chapters are defined, but nothing is being done to implement them until after the top priority items are completed.

[spyder]

The documentation will certainly be in English ;)

I can only read a little Spanish and that's the extent of my language background ;)

We will have support directly in VirtualDubMod to begin with and a few other tools to mux. The rest is up to time and support. Help out if you can and want something.

[alexnoe]

I hope that the docu is not written by the same person who wrote "informations" about 10 times on that one very page...

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by alexnoe
I hope that the docu is not written by the same person who wrote "informations" about 10 times on that one very page...

The goal of matroska is to provide a robust and flexible container, now if you only care about the typo (or that because some of the dev are french and we write 'informations' in french), don't RTFM :)

[int 21h]

Originally posted by BlackSun
define :D

Jump up and down 3 times and sit down at a table. Pour yourself two shots of Vodka (Stolichnaya is preferred), drink the first shot in rememberance of the men of the past and their great deeds, drink the second in hopes that your deeds will join theirs.

Repeat as needed.

And.. as a bonus:

Recipe for Flaming Matroska
Ingredients:
1 oz Vodka
1/5 oz Bacardi 151 proof rum or Everclear
Mixing instructions:
Pour vodka in shot glass, carefully layer rum on top. Ignite rum and serve.

[N_F]

Originally posted by BlackSun
The goal of matroska is to provide a robust and flexible container, now if you only care about the typo (or that because some of the dev are french and we write 'informations' in french), don't RTFM :)
I guess we now know who did the typo... :D

Just kidding...


On a different topic: I just realised that I will be stuck with a modem connection until the 5th may. Will the various tools be in reasonable sizes?

[robUx4]

Originally posted by alexnoe
I hope that the docu is not written by the same person who wrote "informations" about 10 times on that one very page...

:p

[robUx4]

The tools we should have are :

a DirectShow filter (apparently without seeking :( )
a special VirtualDubMod version that can read/write matroska files
command line tools under linux to read/write matroska files
a special build of MPlayer for linux that can play matroska files (seeking working)
a tool to mux an MPEG audio file into a matroska file
a tool to mux a WAV files into a matroska file

[Teegedeck]

I'm really looking forward to that DirectShow filter! :)

How extensive will error recognition/protection information of Matroskadub-produced files be anyway? (As far as I remember there had been plans to have a user-defined amount of that info that could be added to the file or stripped from it with a tool.)

[Atamido]

At the release, there will be none. Someone is needed with some experience in ECC code to help write this code. At the moment the main programmers are just trying to make sure that the files are created properly and can be played back. However, with some help from someone in the know, this feature should not take long to implement.

[midiguy]

one day left!

[Teegedeck]

Originally posted by Pamel
However, with some help from someone in the know, this feature should not take long to implement.

Good to hear that the idea hasn't been dropped; I like it.

So: May 1st I'm gonna burn some matroska-XCDs... :D

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Teegedeck Good to hear that the idea hasn't been dropped; I like it. So: May 1st I'm gonna burn some matroska-XCDs... :D

To save overhead there are currently no ECC or EDC elements in the standard file. However, matroska's underlying EBML structure allows to add them very easily, even by editing an existing file afterwards with a suitable EDC/ECC tool.

The idea to make adding such elements possible has by no means been dropped, in fact it is the backbone of our plans to make matroska streamable via UDP ( RTP payload ) just like with MP4, and not only via HTTP.

As long as you are aiming to use the capacity of your XCD's to the very last byte ( not recommended BTW ) you are not loosing anything with current matroska creation tools, as then you will be aiming for lowest overhead ( and take the highest risk of course ;) ) ....

In future we can see a situation where users will have 780 - 785 MB of effective space for audio and video on a matroska XCD, while about 10 - 15 MB will be spent to add ECC elements for the very important parts of the file ( block headers, track headers, codec private data, etc. ) to ensure the file can be played in any case, plus some EDC elements for not so important parts ( just to see if they are ok or corrupt ) to allow the handling of these data, specific to each codec and its 'sensitivity' to receiving corrupt data ( skip or not ).

In this scenario you'll have the best compromise of space offering compared to safety, but of course you will also have the choice of spending more bytes for safety if you wish to do so .... :) ...

[Teegedeck]

Thanks for the explanation, Christian!

[crusty]

Sounds like some very cool options are going to be in this new file format!

Just two other (possibly silly as well) questions:

-How do you accomplish the type of forward/backward compatibility you are talking about?

-can you explain it to me ....like I'm a six-year old? :D

Looking forward to trying out a fine new container tomorrow...good work!
:)

[spyder]

Well, the bacward compatibility is achieved through our use of EBML. I know it scares some people to think of it as binary XML. It's a way of defining pieces of a file as having a type and a size. This allows us to skip parts of the file we don't know or care about. also, EBML allows minimal overhead by being able to code the sizes of these elements in as small a space as possible. For example the size of 13 bytes is coded in one byte. Larger values take as few bytes as needed. If done right, we can have backward compatibility with older tools when Matroska 2.0 is available :) We hope to never have to change the structures of the files, only add elements. ;)

Spyder

[crusty]

I think I understand it mostly, you basically build a filesystem inside your container with extensions for possible formats, right?
And you'll probably have some sort of header which indicates the presence of certain formats, right? I know nothing of internal avi, mcf or ogm structure but this certainly sounds like a good setup, creating a sort of 'handles' at which any new stream can be 'hooked up' in some way or another.

Just two short questions:

For example the size of 13 bytes is coded in one byte.
I don't quite understand. Are you talking about error correction here or some sort of compression?

And: Is there some sort of support for multi-angle streams, like from multi-angle DVD's, in the specs?

Thanks for the info anyway.

[spyder]

The bit about the 13 bytes was describing how we code sizes in EBML, the size of an element, like a frame. We use as few bytes as possible to code the size, if 4 bytes are needed then we use 4 bytes, otherwise we use less. This may only make sense to programmers.

Yes, the spec will allow multi angle streams in the form of multiple tracks, a track per angle. And no this doesn't mean you will have to have duplicates of the frames in the streams, only those frames which are needed must be placed in the other tracks. The spec allows gaps in streams. :)

Counting down now...

[alexnoe]

As far as I understand, I could simply put some existing files (Buffy 7x01.avi, Buffy 7x02.avi,...) in one matroska file and make a dvd-like menu, right?

Someone should make a nice authoring tool (or is your modded vdub capable of this?)

[spyder]

You could do that yes...

But currently the menuing hasn't been implemented :(

We are very few doing a lot. We need some support to do the rest.

[BlackSun]

it's hot :D

[crusty]

The bit about the 13 bytes was describing how we code sizes in EBML, the size of an element, like a frame. We use as few bytes as possible to code the size, if 4 bytes are needed then we use 4 bytes, otherwise we use less.

So if I get this right, you use the smallest possible unit to account for the frame size.
1 byte size of frame = 1 byte
16 bytes size of frame = 1 byte
256 bytes = 1 byte
512 bytes = 2 bytes (because now you use 9 bits)
Right ?

And about the multi-angle thing:
Does this mean that a multi-angle movie has one track that sort of gives you the option for 3 separate tracks when there is a multi-angle part, and then you switch back to the original track when the multi-angle part is finished...
Or are there multiple full-length tracks with one track containing the non-angled movie and 1 angle and the other tracks simply have a flag set at certain lengths saying 'use track X for this part' ?
I would think the first option would be more economical.

Sorry if this is getting a bit offtopic, but it puzzles me a bit.

[CaptainCarrot]

Ok, it's first of may here...
The next post of any matroska-coder should contain some download-link(s):D
go,go,go,go,go...:D :D :D :D

[spyder]

Originally posted by crusty
[B]So if I get this right, you use the smallest possible unit to account for the frame size.
1 byte size of frame = 1 byte
16 bytes size of frame = 1 byte
256 bytes = 1 byte
512 bytes = 2 bytes (because now you use 9 bits)
Right ?


Something like that yeah. Except you lose a bit per byte due to the flexibility.

Originally posted by crusty
Does this mean that a multi-angle movie has one track that sort of gives you the option for 3 separate tracks when there is a multi-angle part, and then you switch back to the original track when the multi-angle part is finished...
Or are there multiple full-length tracks with one track containing the non-angled movie and 1 angle and the other tracks simply have a flag set at certain lengths saying 'use track X for this part' ?
I would think the first option would be more economical.


Well, you have a main track and a few other tracks that can be overlays to the main one which will give you the option of seeing the different angles. We also have a similar thing for audio tracks which will allow original or "censored" playback of music from a single file.

[spyder]

Oh yeah I forgot.

http://www.matroska.org/announce.html

Spyder

[BlackSun]

it's there :D

[alexnoe]

Oh ! And the name is a simplified version of matryshoka, :p

[Animaniac]

I'm not sure where to post bugs so early... so i'll do it here. This may be a problem with DirectShow seeking, but here it is. In WMP9 with repeat on, the file fails to repeat after the end, and just displays a blank screen and no audio. There seems to be NULL video being passed to the video filter (in my cass ffdshow) since the classic telltale DirectShow "film" is on in the black empty video pane. Furthermore, WMP9 thinks it's still playing the file, but the seek bar remains at t=0. Other than that, awesome work.

[robUx4]

Yes, the main problem right now is the state of the DSF. It's still a bit early. You can't seek and can't stop/play the file. You have to reload it all the time. Now that all this stuff is released I hope we'll find some more time to slightly improve the DSF. That's the priority right now.

Otherwise you can play it in VDubMod :D

[JagPanzer]

@Matroska Team

Thank you!! :)

[crusty]

Yeah !! New toyz !!:D :D

EDIT: Erm....how and where do you install the directshow filter ?
There's just a dll, nothing else.