Capture Guide Suggestions [Archive] - Page 2

BaronVlad

17th April 2003, 12:53

OK guys. Cut.

This guide is NO opensource project. steVe did the translation and he hopefully adds the resize thing, also Wilbert adds the part about Avisynth and GKnot. Thanks for that.

I downloaded "ivos guide" and I dont want anybody to work on a modified version until I think, it is ok ! IMO there are some things that have to be corrected, I will do this.

@steVe and Wilbert: Please use ! Wilberts ! last document to edit your things, and only these things confirmed by me (and Mijo) or are direct translations of the German part, please make also sure that the pictures are in the right directory, didnt work for me from the beginning.

If we dont stick to this procedure, the guide will find its end in a big chaos and will be simply wrong !

I will look into ivos thoughts and will pick the good parts and put them into the guide.

And please no endless discussion about hardware, aspect ratio... anymore. This will also end up in a complete chaos.

Now let us do the things we wanted to, when we are finished, we can have a look at the complete work and think about what has to be done.

And I will confirm whether it will be done or not.

Sorry for these hard words, but it had to be said.;)

Wilbert

17th April 2003, 12:54

i think to somehow include a changelog would be a great idea to keep track of all the different changes and also to give appropriate reference to all the contributers that have helped (and are still helping) in creating this guide.
We already have done that! Maybe you can mail me your changes (of a five days back), so that I can add them to the changelog.

@BaronVlad:

I downloaded "ivos guide" and I dont want anybody to work on a modified version until I think, it is ok ! IMO there are some things that have to be corrected, I will do this.
Ok, I will wait for your updates before continuing ...

killingspree

17th April 2003, 13:04

all my changes have been posted above...

but my problem is that somehow i've lost track of who is doing what and who's responsible for that. perhaps bvlad can give me a little update on the things that happened in the past 5 days... i am :confused: i have to admit...
(yes i still have to get into usual everyday life routine)

anyway... i'm going to take a look at wilberts version now... regarding IVO's version: i might take a short look at the changes so we can, after they've been (dis)approved by bvlad, include them into the guide...

regards
steVe

killingspree

17th April 2003, 13:15

damn it somehow hit submit twice (:
i gotta get some sleep... haven't slept more than 12 hours since saturday.

Wilbert

17th April 2003, 13:17

but my problem is that somehow i've lost track of who is doing what and who's responsible for that. perhaps bvlad can give me a little update on the things that happened in the past 5 days... i am i have to admit... (yes i still have to get into usual everyday life routine)
I'm not bvlad, but I can give you a little update. I added my avisynth stuff (after I got your version of the guide from your website), and posted an updated of the guide. After this ivo posted his corrections on my update. My changes (and also ivo's) can be read in the changelog.txt.

BaronVlad

17th April 2003, 13:23

Originally posted by killingspree
but my problem is that somehow i've lost track of who is doing what and who's responsible for that. perhaps bvlad can give me a little update on the things that happened in the past 5 days... i am :confused: i have to admit...
(yes i still have to get into usual everyday life routine)

Please refer to Wilberts version. Changes should be done in this version only. There is a changelog included that tells you what has been done (mostly the Avisynth part)

Originally posted by killingspree
anyway... i'm going to take a look at wilberts version now... regarding IVO's version: i might take a short look at the changes so we can, after they've been (dis)approved by bvlad, include them into the guide...

Originally posted by Wilbert
Ok, I will wait for your updates before continuing ...

No need to wait.

@Wilbert: You can continue with the GKnot part and add the explainations for the Avisynth filters like it is in the Wiki document (didnt know this before)

@steVe: We need the resize options explained as it is done in the German original, this includes deinterlacing. After explaining the procedure, please add a link to discussions about different filter / deinterlacer in the forum or similiar documents for the people to help them finding the right filters, I think Mijo mentioned some above.

Regarding ivos suggestions: I will look into these. There should be no problem to add some things after the rest has been done.

killingspree

17th April 2003, 13:26

ok thanks for the update...
so i'm going to wait for bvlad to approve the changes IVO made and then add my changes there... i'lll see that i always have the most up to date version of the guide as a zip file on my webspace... i'll probably do two files one for the pictures and the other one for the html files as the pictures won't change as much... (i hope so at least)

just reading through the changlog file (:

steVe

BaronVlad

17th April 2003, 13:33

Think the problem is, that we all write our postings the same time, so this might be funny to read for someone that joins us later...:D

@all: Please look into my lst posting above this one. This is the "to-do-list".

In short words:

No need to wait and changes based on the last version of Wilbert

Would be very good, if steVe could at first correct the image folder and put these two versions (text and images, text only) online, so we start with the same version.

Thanks.

killingspree

17th April 2003, 13:40

based on the ivo or wilbert guide?...
i can do this in like 5 minutes so it shouldn't be a problem. also i'm updating (or rather adding) my changes to the changelog.txt right now...
yes it always seems that we post our messages exactly at the same time... kind of confusing :-P

steVe

BaronVlad

17th April 2003, 13:44

EVERYTHING BASED ON WILBERTS GUIDE.

How we should continue:

1. steVe, please get Wilberts version of the guide, not ivos.
2. steVe, please put it online (image folder corrected) in two versions (text and images / text only)
3. You both please use only this version downloaded from steVes webspace to make sure that changes are done with the same version
4. Wilbert, if you have updates, please send them to steVe, so he can update the file on his server
5. include changes in the changelog
6. Please inform us here, if updates are done.

The suggestions of ivo will follow when I looked into it.

killingspree

17th April 2003, 13:58

ok i did the following changes: (didn't edit the changes because of ivo's changes beeing somehow unsure etc)
-fixed broken image links in wilberts part!
-fixed links so one can go from the 'capture' page to any of the three postprocessing parts
- did a placeholder for the missing gknot postprocessing guide...
- put the picturs into the right folder, fixed the links
- updated the changelog... now we're at 1.3? i don't think we should adapt a more complicated version system...

i'm going to upload it in a minute (or 2)... (have to update my html page etc)

steVe

edit: one more thing before i can upload the guide:
a) what is this empty 'x' folder in the zip file? any purpose? or can i remove it?

new: edit2: everything should be acessible in a few minutes... i've uploaded it... oh and yes i'm going to be away until most likely monday again... perhaps i can write a PM or two (or post a few short answers but i do not have a computer at hand where i can edit the guide... please send all changes to my email
oh yea... the page where you can download the version 1.3 guide: http://members.tripod.de/stefanstrobl/download.htm

Wilbert

17th April 2003, 14:29

edit: one more thing before i can upload the guide:
a) what is this empty 'x' folder in the zip file? any purpose? or can i remove it?
Yes, you can remove it. That's my fault (I didn't see it in the zip files, so I didn't remove it).

^^-+I4004+-^^

17th April 2003, 17:27

i have completely changed the stuff on filtering plus' and minuses as i'm experiencing such results ;lores needs filtering (why shouldn't it,who said it doesn't need filtering? hires needs filtering too,but because downsizing will be applied (anyhow) it needs it less (downsizing serves as a blur filter too)...

saying lores needs no filtering is misleading...confusing too.....unfiltered lores is wasting bitrate same as unfiltered hires....(wasting it on noise)also why should hires need "more" filtering?( it needs more *filters*,that's true,but you have already separated deinterlacing,resizing from the filtering in usual sense (cleaning the image) and that's a good thing )

is this "guideforge"?well i think we should all work together on it,making it better work,discussing potential problems,try to establish things (but with the means of experimenting,experience and so....not because someone said "lores needs no filtering"....that guy is showing lack of experience if he can say that....i can prove this with endless screenshots of before/after filtering...every VHS needs SOME filtering,and after all,this should be universal guide,not just guide for "clean video sources only"....or? )
objective should be the truth (the proven truth)

it has happened that i had pretty lousy sources,so i expect other people did too and therefore accent should be put to filtering (plus and minuses of different techniques).....making it "capture and encoding only" will make people think they always need to do the basic dvd-ripping job (in encoding sense) without filtering,so they'll get end result with lores,and lots of noise everywhere,and probably oversized file...pretty confusing to novice,isn't it?

it's just that i expect noob to love to read about this stuff (as i did when i started) ,and while i agree that PAR is NOT for noob (i don't know if it is for anyone...and why it exists at all...),noob may want to know what is temporal and what spatial smoothing,what denoising does,why it does,what filter works for what,etc.
i think filtering is not something advanced,but a MUST for good deal of analog captures....

no one can do this thing alone,so vlad,i think you should welcome help(sure,check and double check any suggestions): luke's guide did some awesome job,but it wasn't ambitious enough to go for the "real thing" and stayed on cartoons,lores encoding of realmedia and so....(some of the filter chains were pretty weird too),but it was a pioneer job on this subject and still serves as nice reference on many subjects...
this guide is already better in a sense that it aims for much better image quality with less resizing,proper output formats etc.
people in this thread have come forward to help,not to argue about whose copyright it is,and who contributed more...(and no,it' s not "ivo's version"(and it doesn't have plague so everyone should run away from it),but version "mildly updated by ivo"..just another in a way towards Better Guide)

(uhh,am i talking too much or what?)

[strong lang. edited out_there was no need for it...]

/ivo

Wilbert

17th April 2003, 17:38

Don't want to say to much about this, because this is a public forum. But I agree with all your points. I thought the aim was for "the best possible analog capture guide", and nothing less.

BaronVlad

17th April 2003, 18:45

Everybody calm down, nobody wants this thread to find its end in a flame. So in short words:

I didnt get the point you critisize.

1. I need your help, I didnt reject any help, if I would, I hadnt started this thread.
2. I am glad to see so many good suggestions.
3. But there have to be clear rules, otherwise we get the chaos nobody wants.
4. This rule is, that someone has look at the parts that will be added.
5. I created the German guide with all its mistakes, so IMO it should also be my decision what will be changed, when I see good arguments, I will change many things.
6. steVe did the translation and has a clear list what should be done, think we all agree about the points to be changed.
7. Wilbert created the Avisynth part and will hopefully also write the GKnot part.
8. I did not say with one word, that I dont look at your suggestions, ivo, or that I dont want to have them in the guide, if this is untrue, please show me, where I said this. You have many good suggestions (some strange too) but I want to have a look at it first and then add them (i am working on it right now, including all the thoughts you had), cause they are a direct edit of the original and not an addition like wilberts part or the changes steVe makes.

If we all got these points we will end up with a very good guide, ok ?

If you dont feel better now, fell free to contact me via PM to clear up this misunderstandig that it is obviously.

Thanks.

To the Full PAL, PAR, DAR thing: I had a hard afternoon with Karl aspect ratio for dummies and created some words about it, I set it to Karl, so we hopefully will see a corrected version for noobs and experienced users in the near future.

Ookami

17th April 2003, 19:13

First let me say, that this whole talk about "the absolute truth" is wrong, in every possible sence. Video quality, capturing even editing and this whole issue is dependable on your taste. So saying "SVCD is better than Xvid" is just as wrong as saying the opposite. Or saying bilinear resizing is enough/not enough, or 352x288 is LQ. But, somewhere you have to draw the line. For instance I was the first one on this board who didn't wanted to make a FAQ with primarly my opinion, but I inserted links to discussions where people had different opinions, altough the new FAQ by Tim and me is a mixture between classical FAQ's on Doom9 and links to discussions. E.g. Someone who thinks that VCD is good enough will surely disagree with all people who think that low res capturing is LQ, shall BaronVlad put every single opinion on this board in HIS (I'd like to emphasize that) guide?

Now, let's adress some points.

>>I will look into ivos thoughts and will pick the good parts and put them into the guide.
>huh,now i see why it's so easy to split over some issues and why
>MCF become matroska etc.

No, you don't see that, because:
a) You have never put months of work into something and published it (at least I have not seen such a thing)
b) You certainly didn't published your own work and let other people tinker in it without your approval
c) It's normal that the guide is shaped by Tim's taste/opinion as it's his guide

I was the first person who had the opportunity to read/comment on Tim's guide (in german back then), and I cannot say that he accepted everything (we disagreed and/or many things I couldn't write because of lack of time) I said or inserted every comment of mine. The same applies for the recent updates. What would happen if I had reacted the same way that you did when he didn't agreed with me (for example I was against, putting the VirtualDub real time NR in the guide etc.)? There is a reason why there is discussion and then he puts in what he wants. Isn't it normal that he first checks our writings and then accept it/or not? BTW, you should be thankfull (and everyone else) that he even takes your recommandations into account. I cannot count how many times I wrote some recommandations etc. only to be ignored, not thanked etc. He's certainly not afraid to ask people that know more than him, we should give him that credit (and more...)!BaronVlad/Tim is quite some time around and on every board they greet him, that also means that he has not choosen to ignore you nor insult you, he just wants have control how this guide grows. If I recommend something, he also, checks it first, isn't that the whole point? Or shall we make a Wiki document?

-low res/filtering and the whole other bunch

Again, there is no absolute truth. You say that you always have (!) to filter, I say you don't. You're talking in absolutes that are absolutely wrong :D .

How you capture depends on:

a) Hardware/software
b) Time
c) Wanted result
d) Knowledge
e) the rest I've forgotten ;)

Certainly not on an "absolute truth/ideal way". If there wouldn't be so much different opinions, there certainly wouldn't be so much very different "best way" ideas, postings and guides. :)

-So, if you want to watch something one time and you're not a picky person, then you can e.g. capture direct Divx at low res.

-If you want to achieve the best possible capture, then you'll capture with Huffyuv at max. res with later applying of filters etc. and transcoding to a high end format like DVD.

But, even if two persons agree on most of things, I doubt that they agree on all points.

If you're talking about the best achievable result, then you can dismiss every capturing resolution below the max., 99,9% of the capture hardware etc. Is that what you want? So, I think I have made it clear that it clearly depends on taste; filtering even more...

My opinion that everything is a compromise between the a),b),c),d) and e) points :) .

>no one can do this thing alone,so vlad,i think you should welcome help,not remove it

Agree, almost nothing is done alone, but we/you should also respect that Tim/BaronVlad did/does the majority of the work, not anyone else. It's his baby, he should decide what and when to change. Those who not agree should, IMO, think a moment why they're doing this...
I never noticed that someone started to flame Doom9 because he disagreed/didn't wanted to insert something in his guides.

As for your "I know what I am saying", I doubt that you could be called the only one who knows his capturing stuff. And even if you would be THE man, it still doesn't mean squat as many of these points solely depend on taste/time/resources.

Why not write your opinions/comments on this board or PM/mail him, he surely look into it and insert it? How can you act like he dismissed every one of your opinions when you don't see/know what he does?

BTW, thank you for making your postings more readable, seems that Doom9's on GD comment helped.

@Wilbert

>Don't want to say to much about this, because this is a public forum.

I don't understand this comment. What do you want to say?

Cheers,

Mijo.

^^-+I4004+-^^

17th April 2003, 22:45

EDIT BY BARONVLAD:

Message removed, no flame please

We state: especially porn should be filtered as hell as ivo says.

Ookami

18th April 2003, 00:20

EDIT BY BARONVLAD:

Message edited, as there is no sense in keeping an answer to a thread that already has been removed (see above). Mijo knows that I edited it !

The rest of Mijos post (@ivo):

I advice you to act like an adult in the future.

BTW, I'm still waiting for some real tests by yourself, you know with exact test settings, same testing circumstances and the whole other bunch you don't believe in.

Anyway take care and good luck, you'll need it with such an attitude.

Cheers,

Mijo.

^^-+I4004+-^^

18th April 2003, 01:33

EDIT BY BAONVLAD:

Message edited, no flame please

Edited posting follows->

> BTW, I'm still waiting for some real tests by yourself, you know with exact test settings, same testing circumstances and the whole other bunch you don't believe in.

as i said.i'm willing to forget,drop me a few lines and i'll arrange something (and in croatian lang.)(if you still have any interest in bt huff and mjpeg samples

ok,now back to some more productive stuff;
hope vlad succeeds in translating derkarl's stuff as it's a hard nut to crack (even the non-german speaker can see it...like i am)
but it's worthy,believe me......

btw. i didn't hear if wilbert agreed on my version of avs' cutting out commercials?

BaronVlad

18th April 2003, 02:09

Hi,

@ivo: This is a thread about the capture guide. It is NOT the right place to fight your personal war against Mijo. We all have different opinions from time to time, it is the same with Mijo and me but this a chance to create new ideas not to flame as you did.
Mijo did not strike you.

EDIT:

I think you can imagine, what i wrote here first, but it was late. Ok, I also wont strike you, but IMO you should

edit your long post above and remove the profanity and disrespect, and please dont continue with it, not here or in another section / thread, otherwise you may get Rule 4 not now, but in the future

It would make me sad to see this strike as we all are here to work together on this guide ! And where do we get all the ideas from, when you are not around us ? :) You will see it in the guide, what I mean, if you like, PM me and I send you the list of the things I put in.

As we all are adults we should behave as such and removing this is IMO the best way to proof it, but this is up to you again.

/EDIT

EDIT 04/19/03: Messages of ivo and Mijo edited.

Thanks.;)

---------------------------

@all: But now lets continue with the guide:

I looked into ivos suggestions and put most of them (some modified)into it (thanks for your thoughts), or better sent them to steVe to do this. We will see it in the next (hopefully nearly final) version

vcf2avs:

I edited a bit and sent this version to steVe, but maybe Wilbert can add it as well:

"Cutting out commercials with VDub (as an GUI) and incorporating cuts into .avs scripts:

Often you want to cut parts of your capture (for example to cut out commercials). It is somehow complicated to do this without any help direct in an Avisynth script. An easy way to do this is:

a) cut out commercials with VDub (see the section of the guide that explains this procedure)

b) Save the edits of your video into a "vcf-file" (File -> Save Processing settings)

c) convert VDub cutting data to avs compatible "trim" command by the means of "vcf2avs" (by "bb")

after this you have one .avs file which contains "avisource" or "segmentedavisource" command for opening the avi in question,and trimming points (trim commands) as you have done this in VDub.

simply incorporate this data into your existing avs script and the avisynth will do the cutting as well as processing.

You can get bb's "vcf2avs" here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30587&highlight=vcf2avs

(Note, that bb's version will provide you with the same accuracy as VDub cuts,giving you exactly the same output as with VDub cutting)"

------------------------

And I finally got this aspect ratio thing ready, this was a hard afternoon, but it seems to be ok now, as Karl looked into it and I did some changes because of his suggestions (Thanks), it will be in the guide instead of the describtion of Full PAL in preface, here is a "sneak preview":

"What exactly is Full PAL ? We are talking about analogue capture, the signal is brought to you analogue and you have digitize it. There are no pixels from the beginning, so your capture card has to be told to create a pixel resolution. But we normally have a DAR (Display aspect ratio) of 4/3, on the TV screen AND on the computer monitor. As a standard we always have 576 lines. This should result in 576 * 4/3 = 768. The result in the calculation (Link zu "Der Karl's Capture Karten aspect ratio fuer Dummies ;-)") of “Der Karl” for the right resolution is ~702 (active) pixel. Why ?

To confirm this we have to think about another thing: Pixels are not the same on different sets. On a computer monitor a pixel has exactly same height and width, a PAR (Pixel aspect ratio) of 1/1 (square). A DVD Player and the signals for your TV i.g. have another PAR: 54/59 (non square), so this would be ~ 576 * 4/3 * 54/59 = about 704 including ~ 1 or 2 pixel overscan (black borders). This is nearly the same “Der Karl” calculated (Differences because of divisibility).

As a result of this, the resolution of your capture card may differ from others, as there are:

704*576 with a PAR of 54/59 and 1 max. 2 pixel overscan (black borders)

720*576 with a PAR of 54/59 and ~ 18 pixel overscan

720*576 without overscan -> not concurring with the ITU -> use generic PAR (45/48)

768*576 with a PAR of 1/1 without overscan

This is theory, nothing is actual the same in practice, i.g. you will only see "real" square pixel on a TFT, but it should also be mentioned that the drivers of your card sometimes have problems with the “right” resolution:

With a BT 8x8 Chipset (common TV Capture Card) try 768 or 704 * 576 cause of (often) wrong scaling of the cards when 720 is used

With Philips (mostly Asus/NVidia) try 704 (old drivers) or 720 (newer versions), as these cards have no scaler the resolution should be always the right one.

With ATI try 720 or 704. If you use 720 as I do, be sure to stick to the right PAR when resizing. Here it is “generic PAR” (45/48)

If you use a DV Codec, please remember that capturing with that one is limited to 720 anyway.

To get the right final resolution you should get a 4/3 resolution:

for MPEG4 : PAR=1/1, MPEG1/2: PAR=54/59 (VCD 352*288, SVCD stretched to 480*576), DVD 720*576 (including overscan) or better 704*576 without.

But as always: It is up to you to find the right aspect ratio / resolution, but if you found a descent one, dont forget to resize the way you should to get your 4/3 image...":)

Wilbert

18th April 2003, 13:14

@all: But now lets continue with the guide:

I looked into ivos suggestions and put most of them (some modified) into it (thanks for your thoughts), or better sent them to steVe to do this. We will see it in the next (hopefully nearly final) version

vcf2avs:

I edited a bit and sent this version to steVe, but maybe Wilbert can add it as well:
When Steve put it on his website, I will use that version. I will add the GKnot part coming days.

^^-+I4004+-^^

18th April 2003, 22:27

>edit your long post above and remove the profanity and disrespect, and please dont continue with it, not here or in another section / thread, otherwise you may get Rule 4 not now, but in the future

normally i don't go into such lengthy (and pretty useless) discussions but my ex-pal mijo deserves every bit of it...(no,don't worry,this tone won't continue...)
you have my approval to erase both of my posts (first one considering
the "guideforge" and the second one as a reply to mijo)
however i think it would be for the best to erase his post too (as neither his or mine post were really usefull for this thread...i think anyone will agree on that one!)
i think that would be fair to me,him and the community.......
if you would on the other hand decide to erase my posts only,that's ok with me,but his post would have no context,so...(better erase that too...hehe)...these posts of ours are typical email discussions posted to pub-forum and it wasn't so cool...(who was worse?well,probably me,but he had his moments too...),so erase it all,no problem (this stuff is useless...except for elaborate way why porn shouldn't be filtered...lol!)

erase this too...let's forget it!

**********************************************************************
(stuff below this line should be kept,it's back to the subject)

>it will be in the guide instead of the describtion of Full PAL in preface, here is a "sneak preview":

huh.will it "scare off the noob's"?hehe,just kidding..........
anyone should know why 704,720 or 768,so it's good to include it....
btw. i THINK derKarl is constatntly making one BIG (like major) mistake on PAR thingie;here's how (or this thing got twisted somewhere?);
PAL PAR is NOT 54/59 in my mind!it is 59/54!!!
(ie. x(width)=59,y(height)=54 (!!))
in my mind,54/59 for PAL has no sense....
when i say following it might be easier to comprehend;
PAL(mpeg2) is 720x576,NTSC(mpeg2) is 720x480!
(are you starting to see it now?)
NTSC PAR is 10/11(!!) wonder why?(heheh,yes!)
720x480 is obviously not 1,3 (as NTSC screen is ie. 4:3)) so for compensation it would require some unsquare PAR...we know what kind of PAR too;
pixel should be *with more height than width*!!!
(now you know why is 10/11 and NOT 11/10....,and why is it more stretched in mentioned way than PAL is in the other way(PAL is *with more width and less height*(59/54):because of 720/480 vs. 720/576 relation.....)
720x576 is also not square PAR but it doesn't require such correction!
his pixel must be a bit *wider than tall* to bring 1,25(720x576) to perfect AR (1,3) this is 59/54 pixel!!!
(few calculus';
ntsc 720/480= 1.5
AR of tv is 1.3
pal 720/576= 1.25
it is OBVIOUS that NTSC needs exact the OPPOSITE AR correction than PAL!!!this AR correction is done by the means of PAR!
in simple language;when watched on monitor,NTSC's 720x480 is geared toward letterbox (image is stretched in horizontal way!)
PAL is (EXACT THE OPPOSITE) squeezed in horizontal way!
therefore;PAR for NTSC has exact the OPPOSITE relation of pixel side lengths; NTSC PAR squeezes,and PAL PAR stretches!)

and i slight YESSSS!here (as i think i'm correct here,and in my mind this explanation of mine is even better than GKnot FAQ on this...seems like no one really likes to even think about it...except for me...heh...if i'm on the other hand wrong,please argument how and why...you'll reallly have to think hard to prove this wrong;REAL HARD!...i hope..heh )

in fact seeing the NTSC PAR made me realize complete truth about PAR!
before that it was pretty hazy to me...i mean,pixelAR..come on people,can that exist...implications are enormous etc.
but it seems to exist and in the way i described here:
figure "54/59" should only be used on calculations where there's need to correct for this offset that par creates in accordance to normal AR (but math is not my best side,so i won't go into all of these corrections,derkarl calculus etc. if this number is used for that,it's probably ok,but it's not ok to say PAL PAR is "54/59"! )

my reference was;
http://www.mir.com/DMG/aspect.html
and it states;
"The pixel aspect ratio for 625-line video (PAL) is 59:54. Exactly."
and
"The pixel aspect ratio for 525-line video (NTSC) is 10:11. "
[this was written by " ©2001 Matthew Marjanovic."...lol!
he's croatian too! i regard his explanation better than
http://www.lurkertech.com/lg/pixelaspect.html
so big thanks flies out to him for publishing such extraordinary document...heck,lurkertech lead me nowhere! or was it just that i didn't payed enough atention to NTSC PAR there?
heh]

please contact karl to correct this,i would also love some credit for it,but not necessary....

and another intetresting thing;see this;
>The actual MPEG-1 specification specifies the following pixel aspect ratios:
1.0950 for "CCIR Rec. 601, 525-line" images with frames of "711x487 at 4:3"
0.9157 for "CCIR Rec. 601, 625-line" images with frames of "702x575 at 4:3"

(from this same web)
remember how i said somewhere that "pal is PAL is 576-1,5 lines"?
and that one line on the bottom is blank,and the next one (towards up)
is only half filled?
seems like mpeg1 folks saw this too (hehe) and mpeg2 folks decided that's even better to capture 1 line extra (probably because 575 is uneven number so encoders don't love it...and it' not even "16" compatible!)
i'm so clever,it's not even funny anymore (lol!)

regards,my people

/ivo

Darksoul71

18th April 2003, 22:36

@^^-+I4004+-^^:
normally i don't go into such lengthy (and pretty useless) discussions but my ex-pal mijo deserves every bit of it...

1) Keep your private stuff with Mijo out of the forum. Stick to PM or e-mail for "personal war". I´ve e-mailed with Mijo a few times and he seems to be a very polite person.
2) I´ve NEVER EVER seen any posting of you with less than 10 ugly structured lines. As I told you once before: Learn to use paragraphs and Line brakes.

@BaronVlad:
Re vcf2avs: Also don´t forget my little "VCF2AVS" :)
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=41927&highlight=VCF2AVS

-D$

P.S.: Happy easter for everyone

^^-+I4004+-^^

18th April 2003, 23:22

>As I told you once before: Learn to use paragraphs and Line brakes.

i'm now just following d9's suggestion;that means writing into this silly lil window of forum,and i'm on 800x600 (dunno if that's the source for funny lines...)and frankly by now i don't care!
you're not satisfied with broken lines,nor with longer and unbroken lines....so,read it if you can,skip it if you can't...see if i care...
you're another authority here?
hmm,see above what i mean on authorities....
he who gets interested will succeed in reading my stuff...this way,or the "tornado" way....

>Re vcf2avs: Also don´t forget my little "VCF2AVS"

we know of your lil tool,but it has some weird frame offset,so i prefer bb's version (with an frame accuracy!)
last version (i tested) of yours still had this bug,so i just skipped it........if you have better version(and no frame offsets) than bb,then probably you'll get to be mentioned too....

BaronVlad

19th April 2003, 00:20

Hi,

I am glad to see you think this way with Mijo, ivo. We will see what will happen to the posts. I dont know this actually, of course everything will be removed, if anything will be removed, there is no sense to have an answer for a thread that is gone, but as I said, I dont know this actually.

To the PAR...thing: Especially you asked for a clear describtion of this, now you got it. Maybe you should get into contact with Karl to discuss these things with him :D Come on, everybody knows what is meant, you can also explain it the other way round (704/54*59=768 or 768*54/59=704) Who cares ? I dont.

This explaintation was for PAL only as Karl had not written one for NTSC and I think he wont do this in the future as he told me. I will think about the NTSC thing and add a few words in the future.

@DS: I got the part about vcf2avs from ivo and only edited a bit cause I had to work hard on Karls words, but as it is a sticky in the German board (;) ) you are right, we should at least mention it or more. I will go into details and check the proggie out asap.

^^-+I4004+-^^

19th April 2003, 04:37

>Come on, everybody knows what is meant, you can also explain it the other way round (704/54*59=768 or 768*54/59=704)

as i said,in calculus it's ok butif you say "PAL PAR is 54/59" then it's wrong statement.....now,this is NOT your fault!
for example;
> 54/59 (non square), so this would be ~ 576 * 4/3 * 54/59 = about 704 including ~ 1 or 2 pixel overscan (black borders). This is nearly the same “Der Karl” calculated (Differences because of divisibility).

when yout turn it around (for the calculus) then it's OK!!!
but spec says clearly;PAL MPEG2(and DV) PAR is 59/54...i have been mentioning NTSC only for explanation and comparison.....
let me put it in even simpler way;
let say that we have 720x576 but with 59/59 or 54/54 or simply 1:1 PAR;
this would mean we have sqaure pixel,and then we can calculate without problems;720/576=1.25
this means we have image that is squeezed in horizontal way....(like we have on monitor;as monitor converts all pixels to square pixels!!!)
if 720x576 with square PAR (1:1) is projected to tv,same thing will happen as on monitor...uncorrect AR of 1,25,but not as visible as on monitor because of tv's overscan...(non the less,it's the wrong AR)

i think this should be rectified;if karl knows english,direct him to my previous post,so he sees it....he should pick it up from there....

to clear thing a bit more (calculus) see how xesdeeni corrects for 4:3 screen in this thread
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34122&highlight=pal+resolution+is
scroll to his first answer,you'll see where and how he used "3/4" (only for calculus...)
like this;
"However, lines of (horizontal) resolution is defined based on a square screen (called a "screen height"). So our 4:3 television has to remove its aspect ratio, so we get (325 * 3/4)"

this is no big deal (after all it's just PAR...hehe) but 54/59 as a PAL PAR will confuse quite a few!
it's "59/54" for all the reasons i said before.....
(i dunno why would someone like karl swap "x" and "y" axis for PAR,but he did....for calculus YES,for specs NO!)

vlad,do it like this; read my previous post (carefully) and decide for yourself what makes sense,also pay visit to the link i posted there (marjanovic)....direct karl to it too,if still looks to hard or confusing for you,(or no consesnus can be achieved with karl) i suggest you simply leave it out....i'm investing all my knowledge (and then some...hehe) so that the guide has the facts only....54/59 is a fact.....BUT ONLY IN CALCULUS for the rare ones that decide to calculate with PAR's....karl decided,but made a mistake leaving it 54/59 in specs too.....
(contacting karl?,just point him here...i don't know if i can explain it better than that parallel with NTSC's 720x480 on 10/11 PAR.....but if he had some doubts afterwards he can contact me...no problems..)

and guess what;wilbert's confusion with 720 and 768 is directly derived form mistakes such as this (but he did the opposite;
"h=720*59/54 = 786.7 (PAL), "
and if wilbert got confused with it, well,you see what i mean...better to keep it as correct as it can be!)

i would be luckiest man on earth if those scumbags in ccir decided to use sqaure pixels only and not make this havoc for everyone with silly 720 59/54 pixels!(i really mean this is silly!)

on the end,small copy paste from gknot forum sticky on ccir601 etc.:
(from chibi jasmin)
>"Resizing of MPEG-sources compliant to ITU-R BT.601 standard

PAR=pixel aspect ratio – DAR=display aspect ratio

According to ITU-R BT.601:

PAL PAR 117/128 (y/x), x/y=1.094 [128/117] PAR"

see,this is a CORRECT WAY!!!
if u use 54/59 u should always note (y/x) afterwards.....
as 59/54 is (of course) x/y
i belive usual naming convention is "x/y",and in calculus we might need "y/x" (54/59) so it's best to note it ALWAYS in every calculus,otherwise such "bugs" will arise...

cheers

/ivo

Darksoul71

19th April 2003, 08:16

@Vlad:

@DS: I got the part about vcf2avs from ivo and only edited a bit cause I had to work hard on Karls words, but as it is a sticky in the German board ( ) you are right, we should at least mention it or more. I will go into details and check the proggie out asap.

It´s ok. I´m not nitpicking. I just wanted to point out. It´s funny that bb developed a tool with nearly the same functionality (even the same name) during the same time I did. IMHO "my" VCF2AVS has some good functionalities for the "analogue capture guys" like batch splitting or batch audio conversions. This really helps for people that archive a lot of movies.

@Ivo:
>you're another authority here?
Nope, I just can´t stand some guys bashing on each other in the forum. I always had some problems with "authorithies". So I shurely won´t be an authority......

we know of your lil tool,but it has some weird frame offset,so i prefer bb's version (with an frame accuracy!)
last version (i tested) of yours still had this bug,so i just skipped it........if you have better version(and no frame offsets) than bb,then probably you'll get to be mentioned too....
I dunno which version you´ve tested but I think that I fixed this bug something like 4 versions ago...
bb was so kind to point out. I subtracted 1 frames because I thought that the first frame in AVISynth was Frame 0.

BTW: "probably you'll get to be mentioned too...." ????
I don´t need "to be mentioned too...".
FYT: I´ve developed "my VCF2AVS" for my personal needings and shared it with the other peoples.

@other: Sorry if this is totaly OT but I couldn´t stand...

-D$

BaronVlad

19th April 2003, 10:47

Hi,

I edited ivos and Mijos postings, it is ok for Mijo as he said and I think it is also ok for ivo, if not, this is not my problem anymore, cause I wanted you (ivo) to edit it. You did not, so everything is gone, also some suggestions you made about filtering of porn, but you had the chance to save this.

Now let us please continue with the guide or some rules may follow.:D

@ivo: I got your point, but as I told you, you can see it the other way round and then it is correct. I know that Karl looked into this thread, I will ask him about 54/59 <-> 59/54, we will see, what he wants to admit.

Something else:

>you're another authority here?
DS is right, your postings are very hard to read, I am glad to see you not continuing in using "tornado style" But please try to use also a SHORT describtion of your thoughts. And also have a look at what you are saying. What you said above is very near to 4). As I said I dont want to see this strike, but you will not get another warning.

@DS: bb and you should have developed this tool together, this would have been less work for both of you.
:)

But dont be afraid, I know what you meant, I will have a look asap as I promised.;)

Wilbert

19th April 2003, 16:40

A short update:

The AviSynth part is done, only the vcf2avs has to be included. I'm still waiting for Steve to share the updated version.

About GKnot: I installed v0.28 + beta 3. I thought that would be cool, since you can also encode to XviD using this version. However when opening a huffyuv-avi (yuy2), I don't see the clip in the preview (which is necessary for cutting parts of the clip). I will post in the Gknot forum for this. In the mean time, can someone check whether this problem is also present in v0.27?

^^-+I4004+-^^

19th April 2003, 23:24

>I got your point, but as I told you, you can see it the other way round and then it is correct.

true,small "(x/y)" or "(y/x)" after the "59/54" or "54/59" (respectively..hehe) will do....

>But please try to use also a SHORT describtion of your thoughts

and that's no lie that i tend to go on and on and on...(and on..heh)..probably out of fear that someone might not understand it all (so i put more (slightly different) explanations of the same thing....) and i really don't know if one can be clear enough on the PAR...heh...

luckily,99% of the time there's no PAR speak....
(but non the less,i'm no poet to condense all i think in smallest package; i prefer novels!.....hehe)

btw. vlad have you uploaded newest version somewhere so i can get the html only?if not,please send it via-email or so (PM?).....

thanks...

Belgabor

20th April 2003, 14:46

Originally posted by Darksoul71
@BaronVlad:
Re vcf2avs: Also don´t forget my little "VCF2AVS" :)
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=41927&highlight=VCF2AVS

For completeness sake you might want to mention that VDubMod basically also supports this :)

The Script Editor can:
- Import the curret frame
- Import the selection
- Import the selection as trim statement
- Import the complete select/del editting as aligned splice of Trim statements

Cheers
Belgabor

Darksoul71

20th April 2003, 15:51

@Belgabor:

For completeness sake you might want to mention that VDubMod basically also supports this

Oops, forgive me :D

Honestly I haven´t had the time to test VDubMod. It´s great to see a combination of VDub and AVISynth.

-D$

^^-+I4004+-^^

20th April 2003, 17:54

bb's vcf2avs;
AviSource("D:\Video\rawstuff\seve-obrve-atv2000capture_1_01.avi")
Trim(0,36)+Trim(57,206)+Trim(235,435)+Trim(450,1000)+Trim(1257,2406)+Trim(2758,3431)

d$'s vcf2avs;
AVISource("D:\Video\rawstuff\seve-obrve-atv2000capture_1_01.avi")
Trim(0,36)+Trim(57,206)+Trim(235,435)+Trim(450,1000)+Trim(1257,2406)+Trim(2758,3431)

(source vcf;
VirtualDub.subset.AddRange(0,37);
VirtualDub.subset.AddRange(57,150);
VirtualDub.subset.AddRange(235,201);
VirtualDub.subset.AddRange(450,551);
VirtualDub.subset.AddRange(1257,1150);
VirtualDub.subset.AddRange(2758,674); )

also;still d$ version cannot fit 800x600 desktop properly (nor it can be resized to fit),d$ version has quite a few extras (making it almost 1MB dload,bb's version is 9KB(!)dload...)

didn't tried vdubmod,but i would have the need to copy-paste trimming stuff anyway,as my avs script is...well,it's 9KB big,need i say more...it also has some avs ONLY plugins,etc.

so i'll stay on bb's version with cropping done (800x600,remember..cannot crop 768x576 with VDub...)by TmpgEnc,as it downsizes the cropping window nicely,so i only enter the data to my existing script..... i rarely crop anyhow....there are not so much 16/9 movies aired here.....

Darksoul71

20th April 2003, 18:37

@^^-+I4004+-^^:
Thanks for your test and your comment.

also;still d$ version cannot fit 800x600 desktop properly (nor it can be resized to fit),d$ version has quite a few extras (making it almost 1MB dload,bb's version is 9KB(!)dload...)

I know this. My version was "optimized" for >=1024x576 as I´m running this res. The programm itself is not resizeable because this would make it neccessary to resize all components. Another solution would be using tabs (like GKnot), but I dislike this.

Regarding size: I´ve kept down the zip size as far as I could. There are various plugins and tools includes that make the package that "big" but honestly 1 MB isn´t a big deal. I´m currently runnning 56k dial-up for my www connection and 1 MB takes only a few minutes.

-D$

killingspree

20th April 2003, 21:10

ok here i am back again
i don't know if i can but i'll try to include every changes bvlad/tim sent to me tonight and bring another version (1.4) online ... but i can't promise a thing. wouldn't be the first time i fall asleep infornt of my comp. (less than 10 hours sleep in the last 5 days)

steVe
PS: damn this thread seems to have gotten pretty ugly at one point. keep it nice and clean guys (;

edit (new): ok i've uploaded the new/modified version of the guide (1.4) hope i didn't miss anything.
link: http://members.tripod.de/stefanstrobl/download.htm
nur changelog: http://members.tripod.de/stefanstrobl/changelog.txt

^^-+I4004+-^^

21st April 2003, 01:07

>Thanks for your test and your comment.

no problem...as i said,i'll be the first to admit when i'm wrong...
i hope you have "segmentedavisource" too.(didn't had the time to test it)..ok,i'll take your word for it...hehe

>but honestly 1 MB isn´t a big deal

true,1MB is not much and there are many extras there,as i said....

resolution?yeah,well if the cancer research proggie won't let me help-in because of simillar thing,you can see others see only their desktop as a reference,so it's not like you're the only....
i like progs that are ment for all resolutions.....btw. have i mentioned i use large fonts too...hehe(no,not blind,but just like to get away from the screen a bit..)

but anyhow,even not all functions are visible,i can see the converting part (obviously.... as i tested it)

>damn this thread seems to have gotten pretty ugly at one point

i have modified the "suspicious" parts of another post....now,some of vlad's and mijo's responses are left hanging in thin air,but i have already said that the "guideforge" one needs erasing (now i did editing,only to leave part on lo-res filtering) too........

snug a peek at newest version,looking good......

@vlad ; THANKS for including my thoughts there too....
and SORRY for too much bitchin'........

(btw. those translator comments come in handy too!)

BaronVlad

21st April 2003, 09:41

:)

Thanks all !

I dont have much time this mornig, I will go into details, I hope, I will get the time this evening

Special :) @ivo !

Belgabor

21st April 2003, 13:14

Originally posted by Darksoul71
@Belgabor:

Oops, forgive me :D

Honestly I haven´t had the time to test VDubMod. It´s great to see a combination of VDub and AVISynth.

Sorry, I didnt mean you should have mentined D$, just to put it into the guide (for completeness sake ;))

So no reason for needing forgiveness :D

Darksoul71

21st April 2003, 17:12

@Belgabor:
>So no reason for needing forgiveness
But I´m really sorry that I haven´t even touched VDubMod :D

-D$

BaronVlad

21st April 2003, 20:18

Hi,

I read through the guide and did some minor bugfixes that I sent to steVe, also Darksouls program and the script editor of VDubMod will be mentioned.

Maybe someone could help Wilbert with the GKnot setup ? I cannot, cause I lent the cables to a friend of mine and cannot do any caps this time. Maybe it is just because Wilbert hasnt deleted the last small Huffyuv file before loading into GKnot ???

Regarding the ugly PAR and NTSC thing: I will contact Karl.

Now I have to leave and I have the bad feeling that I forgot something very important. Please remind me, if this is true. :(

^^-+I4004+-^^

21st April 2003, 22:37

>Maybe someone could help Wilbert with the GKnot setup ? I cannot, cause I lent the cables to a friend of mine and cannot do any caps this time. Maybe it is just because Wilbert hasnt deleted the last small Huffyuv file before loading into GKnot ???

my avs205 will crash on last frame with segmented mjpeg's too ie. not that huff is only affected
(all multisegmented VDUb produced files have this last empty 12kb file..)
if i got (with the VDub editing) on the last frame and try to go back,it crashes avs....
(dunno what GK does on opening of the file...)

but usually the last frame doesn't stay there (in the avs script) at all (it's trimmed before the encoding) so it doesn't crash.....but even in event of crash (on the end of the encoding),the rest of the file is usefull....

i believe this bug (last empty segment crash) was corrected in recent avs release...

those are my experiences on last segment empty issue...

Wilbert

22nd April 2003, 09:23

Maybe someone could help Wilbert with the GKnot setup ? I cannot, cause I lent the cables to a friend of mine and cannot do any caps this time. Maybe it is just because Wilbert hasnt deleted the last small Huffyuv file before loading into GKnot ???
That's not the problem I have, cause I didn't use segments. The problem is that the preview (of gknot 0.28) doesn't show anything when loading a huffyuv.

Tomorrow, I will put up a new version including Steve's changes.

However I do have a general question about gknot (relating to capping of course):
I would like to know some reasons why people would use gknot for processing captures.

0) delete commercials => vdubmod + script editor

1) For deinterlacing (PAL), the (often) correct deinterlace option isn't even there. Better to do it manually with SeperateFields, to see how to deinterlace. For NTSC it is probably usefull.

2) For resizing. Capping in 7XXx576 => 640 x 480 (or scalings) for XviD. I always thought that 720x576 and 704x576 had to be resized differently. But Ivo corrected me, I hope I understand it now. So resizing is also trivial.

3) Color correction => vdubmod need with script editor

So, the only reason I can think of to use gknot is the compressibility test. But if this is the only reason, one could make the script (without gknot). Open the avi in gknot, and replace default gknot.avs with the self made gknot.

Any opinions?