RealVideo 9 vs XviD

[deXtoRious]

Please keep us informed... Maybe I'll be able to put LOTR1 on 1cd :rolleyes: By the way what is Convolution3D Light used for?

[Sirber]

Convolution3D is a temporal smoother, supposed to supress noise. I wat to remove some to help RealVideo 9 to get the best quality at 450kbps.

[Didée]

@ Sirber
@ deXtoRious

I have encoded LOTR Fellowship SEE to 1CD for curiosity and ambition. (Besides of the HiQ 2CD rip, of course.)
For XviD, I used (supersampled) deringing by mpeg2dec, and dust filter after resize. Plus most advanced features of XviD, except lumi masking. Quantization was mpeg.
For RV9, I did no pre-filtering at all, since the codec seems to do all by itself ... I'm not experienced with it. I used x2real for the easiness to get it done.
Resolution was 512*208 - intended for TV output only, not necessarily for viewing on a CRT. Overall Bitrate was 480 kbps.

Well, my conclusion:

- XviD is astonishingly viewable. Blocking is minor, it's quasi unnoticeable during normal watching. Some ringing is apparent on CRT, but this also I can hardly notice on my 80cm (33" ;) ) TV screen.
Very much detail is retained.
Result: Playback on TV is very acceptable, and even on CRT I have seen much worse things than this rip.

- RV9 is almost free of any artefacts, agreed.
But It is simply not watchable for me! So much details are smoothed away. Faces are pretty much flat, and - for example - Gandalf's beard is very often nothing more than a big, grey blob. Moreover, I can't stand it when within an area with much details, some parts got flat, while the surrounding keeps much detail. Looks really ridiculous. This occured e.g. on straw roofs, grassen meadows, and similar.
Result: Sorry, this is not for my taste.

Perhaps I did something wrong with RV9 - but using x2real, there is not so much possibility to choose a wrong setting.

For my personal preferences, all I can say is that RV9 is far, far away from convincing me. The same goes for WMV9, by the way.

I'd really enjoy to show some samples, but I have no webspace configured at all, so how should I make it available? And since attachements are not working here for quite some time, I can't even show some screenshots.
For the above posted comparison - I think The Xung has hit the point.


Regards

Didée

[deXtoRious]

It's for use with low bitrates only, right? Could you also tell about the other filters (the useful ones)?

[deXtoRious]

@ Didee

Did you use VHQ or GMC for xvid?

[Sirber]

@Didée

Try with AutoRV9, there is more options and filters, but it's using AVISynth 2.07. I see you prefiltered the one for XviD a lot, why not doing the same thing for RV9? Real Video codec don't process the video too much but post-process it. If Gandalf's beard was a blob it's because it was a square, so it was post-processed.

Please retry it with:
Decomb
Convolution3D -> Medium or High
Bilinear resize

Don't forget it's a ~3h45 movie :)

What did you use for audio? codec and bitrate please.

***********

About It (Want a baloon? They float, they all float)

after 2h, 14% of the first pass. It'll take the weekend I think.

@deXtoRious

I uses filters in extreme cases, and It's one :) I think a 3h45 movie whitout filters is a suicide, with XviD or RV9.

[deXtoRious]

Is there a tutorial or smth. about the filters in RV9? I'm especially interested in msharpen...

I'll encode LOTR2 today. Are such settings OK?

Decomb
Convolution3D Light
Bilinear resize

Resolution 608xwhatever

BTW, I'm using AutoRV9 with AviSynth 2.50 since 2.07 didn't work for some mysterious reason. I only had to replace the plugins with their 2.5 versions and everything started working!

[Sirber]

AutoRV9 with AVISynth 2.50... You should tell the author. It yould be great to have a version with AVISynth 2.50!

Use a rez of 512.

How long is the movie?

[deXtoRious]

1. Who's the author? And BTW there is no reason why AutoRV9 couldn't work or would produce errors with 2.5, is there? I didn't think of it as smth. special...
2. Will do.
3. It's 2:59:14.

[Sirber]

http://rackspeed.he.net/~adntat/dark/

All filters included for AutoRV9 are for 2.0x, not 2.5x. But, 2.5x is 25% faster than 2.0x because of colorspace conversion.

As far as I remember, LOTR2 is a fast motion movie.
Uses: Convolution3D Medium (640x) or Light (512x)

[deXtoRious]

RV9 works great for me in YV12... I'll make a self-extracting patch, so I don't have to copy those files every time I reinstall everything (very often)...

[Sirber]

That's great!!!!!!

Could you include these filters:

Decomb
Convolution3D

I don't remember if resize is a DLL or not. Will you also include the producer from x2real? It's the lastest and patched (2-pass VBR into 1 CBR problem) producer.

[edit]

I think it's not a forum anymore, but a chat ;)

[Didée]

deXtoRious: VHQ1 was used, also qpel, 3*B*15+0 @ 25, chro-ME, but not chroma optimizer. And a (only slightly) modified quantization table, perhaps my new standard.

Sirber:
I admit that my comparison was not 100% fair ... but let's look at it like that:
I watch all my XviD encodings without any postprocessing. With RV9, I must watch with PP, because there is no way to turn it off (or is there any?). Therefore, it is fair again: Pre-processing for XviD, post-processing for RV9 ;)
Audio for XviD was Vorbis @ q0.5, what was adequate in this particular case.

A little sidenote: Convolution3D is not a temporal filter. It is a temporal-spatial filter :p

Of course I don't forget the length oft the movie (which for me is BTW "only" 3:19 h, since I see no sense in keeping the fanclub credits).
That's exactly the interesting part: in principle, the job is impossible with current technique, so let's see what can be achieved nonetheless.

Perhaps I give it another shot with pre-filtering for RV9 also. ATM I am very busy with two daily series, and a handful of DVDs waiting. Don't know when I will grab the time :(

However, RealVideo is pretty much a "Black Box" to me. And I am not a big friend of black boxes.


Didée

[deXtoRious]

I think it's not a forum anymore, but a chat

It's OK with me ;)

Could you include these filters:
Decomb
Convolution3D

Already done. I replaced ALL filters which where in AutoRV9.

I don't remember if resize is a DLL or not

Neutral bicubic is not, the rest are. Already replaced.

Will you also include the producer from x2real? It's the lastest and patched (2-pass VBR into 1 CBR problem) producer.

I haven't used x2real yet. I'll download it now and try to replace it, then check for any problems (you can never know) and if all works well, I'll include it.

[Sirber]

You flushed the 25 minutes credits? :devil:

Could you post two short clip of your encode? Also, what's the bitrate of RealAudio and codec?

RV postprocess squares only by bluring the edges.

Convolution3D is a temporal smooter

from http://hellninjacommando.com/con3d/

Convolution3D is an AviSynth filter that will apply a 3D convolution filter to a video stream.
In practical terms, this makes it an anti-noise filter with both spatial and temporal elements.

So praticly, we are both right :p

@deXtoRious

Great! If you want a server for sharing it, I have a nice one. But... I always use Neutral Bicubic :( I'm gonna cry... sniff sniff

[deXtoRious]

Perhaps I give it another shot with pre-filtering for RV9 also. ATM I am very busy with two daily series, and a handful of DVDs waiting. Don't know when I will grab the time

If someone could suggest the preprocessing options, I could try it. I have to encode that movie anyway...

[deXtoRious]

One more thing. Could somebody explain what the other filters in AutoRV9 do? Are they useful or is it just a waste of time? Thanx in advance.

[Sirber]

They may be usefull, like for animes or heavy grain movies. But, for me it's not usefull. pre-processing reduce the overal quality and heat my CPU.

I only use Convolution3D and Decomb. For convolution3D it's the first time I use it in a movie, because It is long... too long... and scary too ;)

[deXtoRious]

When you finish, tell me if convolution 3d had any use...

[Sirber]

I'll have to do it whitout too :) With these two filter I can't preview in realtime.

[deXtoRious]

With these two filter I can't preview in realtime.

Why?

Bad news: My current connection to the Internet will become unavailable on Monday. Currently I'm negotiating with my parents about a radiolink connection. Anyway it will take about a week for me to get online again. So the patch will be delayed. The good side is that I'll have a lot of time to test it for stability and correct any errors, so even the 1st release should be quite stable. I hope.

[Sirber]

because decomb is slow and convolution3D too!

Could you send me on my wonderfull mail (I made it myself) your patch before you loose your internet connection? Thanks :)

I want speed!!! (and quality, maybe quality first, but speed is important)

[deXtoRious]

I use decomb all the time, since I encode mostly interlaced content. Which is the best/fastest of deinterlacers?

In that case, give me your e-mail address. I don't guarantee anything, but I'll try.

[Sirber]

I want garenties :p

it's sirber(at, basicly AltCar+2)webernic(dot, a small one, near the comma)com

The best is Decomb, and I had a lot of troubles with other IVTC and Deinterleasers (you know what I mean :) )

[deXtoRious]

As I said, no guarantees :D

Great, I tried decomb first (and last, it seems).

[Sirber]

I have some il*egal (mouhahahaha) rips with doubled pixels (vertically) because of bad, very bad filters (GreenyHMA + IVTC i think)

[deXtoRious]

I have a LOT of illegial good and bad rips in all possible formats (now including RV9) in good and bad quality and only a few legal ones. But don't tell that to anyone, mkay?

[Sirber]

I'll try. I have a mass mailer running in background, you don't mind? ;)

[Ramirez]

Go at the command prompt, and write:
format c: /y
And your problem will be gone


:D :D :D

[Sirber]

hum... not the right place ;)

[edit]

You know... I like to help defendless newbies that DivX Network attacks. :D

[edit 2]
I recieved this:



Mgz wrote on 5th April 2003 15:22:
You are my HERO.....

I still think WMV9 is the best for low bitrate movie...but holy shit, i download Real Producer Basic and try @ 450kbps...

and I'm sure you know the result :p

Thank YOU VERY MUCH :)

I'll use REAL for every movie i encode from now on :D

once again, thanks you .

Here's my answer:

That's not every movie that can be compressed at 450kbps. I'm doing a test, and I don't know the results. I did Saving Private Ryan, 2h50, and the quality was not so good. Try it, I recommend AutoRV9 for a DVD->RV9. Read more on this forum and learn. And BTW, I'm not God :)

[edit 3]
After 9h, 59% on the first pass. CPU @ 43°C

[Ramirez]

I don't quite get it who is the author of that message you're quoting
And
You're my hero too :)

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by Didée
Resolution was 512*208 - intended for TV output only, not necessarily for viewing on a CRT. Overall Bitrate was 480 kbps. Maybe this is a stupid question, but if you have the DVD... Why are you making a rip for TV output only? (was it your means of compairing the codecs?) (I'd screw using any compression and just watch the DVD instead, otherwise!)

--

Also, is it common place for xvid/divx/sbc users to make their movies at such low resolution? Encoding at 208 means you've lost more than half of the original resolution (480).

[31 Flavas]

Originally posted by Sirber
I see you prefiltered the one for XviD a lot, why not doing the same thing for RV9? Real Video codec don't process the video too much but post-process it. Actually, Karl has posted (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38970&perpage=20&highlight=prefiltering&pagenumber=2) that RM does no pre-processing and/or pre-filtering *at all* (built in or otherwise) unless you select a denoise option in Real/Helix Producer.

[Sirber]

Read the entire tread please. I know RV9 don't have pre-processing, XviD too. But for his test, he pre-processed XviD with 2 or 3 filters, but he didn't use the same filters for RV9, so that's quite unfair.

@all

I don't deserve being a hero. I'm just an ordinary RV9 Nerd :D

@Ramirez

I recieved this in my PM. I answered it, but I made it public too for you guys. My goal is to produce a 1CD Rip at the best quality possible, not to be a Hero ;)

about my rip:

it's 11h00 PM, and it started at noon, and it's still on the first pass, 77%. For the ones that didn't read my tread, I'm encoding Stephen King's It, 3h07, on 1 CD.

[deXtoRious]

I don't deserve being a hero. I'm just an ordinary RV9 Nerd

Now, now, don't be that shy ;)

I only got home now and I'll try to make that patch as soon as possible.

[Sirber]

@all

It's 9h00 AM, and at 60% of the second pass. I'll try that movie with WVM9 too. I never realy tryed WMV9 before. I'll post a small preview when it's ready. It will be, like my other preview, a technology show, and not piracy.

@deXtoRious

Did you talk to AutoRV9 author? It would be great to have a "boosted" version uting AVISynth 2.5x :D

[CruNcher]

@ Sirber
please compare again with one of the new upcoming XviD builds, but try to avoid the usage of Qpel @ first :)

[Sirber]

I can't, I don't own the origigal DVD. Maybe I'll try with some videoclips.

[Didée]

Originally posted by 31 Flavas
Maybe this is a stupid question, but if you have the DVD... Why are you making a rip for TV output only? (was it your means of compairing the codecs?) (I'd screw using any compression and just watch the DVD instead, otherwise!)
1. It is simply sports.
2. Seeing what current techniques allows. Generally, more than 3 hours to 1CD is a big no-no!
3. With a CD-R, playback possibilities are a little more flexible, compared to a DVD.

Originally posted by 31 Flavas
Also, is it common place for xvid/divx/sbc users to make their movies at such low resolution? Encoding at 208 means you've lost more than half of the original resolution (480). [/B]
Firstly, the original vertical res. is 416 pixels (anamorph), which equals 292 pixels with 1:1 pixelAR.
Again, this movie is ultra-hard to put in a reasonable quality on 1 CD. Generally I don't like to go below 576*xxx for widescreen movies ... however, for TV output, 512*208 still is fair enough. Especially when your graphic card is not from NIVEA, erh, NVIDIA :P

---

Sirber:
I already agreed that my comparison was not 100% fair. But since RV9 is so UNBELIEVABLE MUCH BETTER :rolleyes: than its 'competitors', I expected some at least halfway reasonable results even under that circumstances. But RV9 delivered nothin reasonable for me.
And BTW, my XviD rip was not "heavily" or "a lot" pre-filtered. You guys seem still have to learn a lot about video filtering. Yeah, simply pressing some knobs in an encoding GUI is sooo simple ...

Having slept one night over this thread, and having read the posts of the last 24 hours once again, I came to the conclusion to withdraw from this thread.

I wish happy encoding with whatever tools you prefer. I know the mine.

Didée,
in not so brilliant mood today

[Sirber]

@Didié

You do what you want, I have no problem with that. By the way, I'm not a newbie and I know what I'm using. My point is, if you want to compare codecs, use the same settings. Maybe XviD is better than RV9 with 2-4 filters, but maybe RV9 is better than XviD with the same filters.

@all

I'll encode the movie It in Windows Media format after. I'll post a RealVideo 9 vs Windows Media 9 later :)

[Sirber]

The encode is finished.

Holy Jesus, the quality is better than I taught. There is some wierd color change sometings (at least I saw one). In dark scenes, RV9 saves bits and makes it blur, but on light scenes it's kinda DVD quality (Whitout the noise).

I'll post a short clip April 8 on my favorite server.

Long live to RealVideo!!! (and RealAudio) :D

[Sirber]

Here's a screnshot, in the first 1/3 of the movie.

Quality: 7/10

http://www.webernic.com/sites/sirber/It.jpg

Tell me what you think. I think for a 3h07 movie on 700MB it's great!! :D

[TheXung]

Originally posted by Didée
Having slept one night over this thread, and having read the posts of the last 24 hours once again, I came to the conclusion to withdraw from this thread.

I wish happy encoding with whatever tools you prefer. I know the mine.

Didée,
in not so brilliant mood today

Without anyone else in the mood to argue wit Sirber anymore, this thread will just fall victim to group think.

[Ramirez]

Hey sirber, post your script please :rolleyes:
I'll try to put up a little frame by frame comparison between these two also.

Btw: the screenshot looks very good!!

[Sirber]

Originally posted by Ramirez
Hey sirber, post your script please :rolleyes:
I'll try to put up a little frame by frame comparison between these two also.

Btw: the screenshot looks very good!!

I'm sorry I can't. They were deleted five minuts ago, and I'm in the middle of a defrag so I can't recover them. But if we use the info I gave at the begining, I think we can reproduce one.

Here what I used (if I remember well):

Lanzcos (640x)
Decomb (as IVTC)
Convolution3D (ligbt)

Audio: cook @ 64kbps, surround
Video: rv9 @ 450kbps (max 4000), 23.97x FPS

[edit]

I found it on a cluster:

# PLUGINS
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\Autorv9\SOFTS\AVSFILE\MPEG2DEC.DLL")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\Autorv9\SOFTS\AVSFILE\DECOMB.DLL")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\Autorv9\SOFTS\AVSFILE\CONVOLUTION3D.DLL")
#
# VIDEO SOURCE
Video=Mpeg2Source("C:\STEPHEN_KING_S_IT\CD1+2.d2v")
#
# AUDIO SOURCE
Audio = WavSource("C:\STEPHEN_KING_S_IT\Stream1.WAV")
#
# COMBINE VIDEO + AUDIO
Video=AudioDub(Video,Audio)
#
# IVTC
# For a better result try : Video=Telecide Video,post=true,chroma=true,gthresh=50,guide=1)
Video=Telecide(Video,guide=1)
Video=Decimate(Video,cycle=5)
#
# CROPPING
Video=Crop(Video,0,0,720,480)
#
# RESIZING
Video=BicubicResize(Video,640,352,0,0.5)
#
# CONVOLUTION 3D FILTER (Light)
Video=Convolution3D(Video,1,4,5,3,4,2.8,0)
#
# FINISH
Return(Video)

[Ramirez]

Sorryyy! I've misunderstood you completely, I...well kinda thought that this screenshot coming from WMV-vcm rip that you did :stupid:

[Sirber]

Are you saying I'm stupid? :devil: :devil: :devil:

[Ramirez]

No!! Damn it!, its ME, this icon is aimed to me, I've seen people using it like this when they makes some stupid mistakes.
All I wanted to say is that I misunderstood your post and therefore I'm the stupid one.
:)

[Sirber]

So, by explaining it to me, you think I'm not bright enough to understand it by myslef? :devil:

The Hell with you :p

BTW, I'm joking from the beginning. No flames :)

[Ramirez]

Your stupid jokes are way out of the line here!! :p

On the side note..

Sirber if you want to use YV12 with Autorv9,it's really very easy to accomplish that, Just replace the mpeg2dec.dll in autorv\softs\AVSFILE\*.* dir with mpeg2dec3.dll (rename it to mpeg2dec.dll,) and voila you're set, the same applies to the rest of the filters convolution3d.dll replaced with convolution3dYV12.dll, Decomb.dll get replaced with DecombYV12.dll. etc) I'm using it like this since month now, none a single problem.
(I'm currently trying to port this app completely to Avisynth2.5, the main executable is packed with UPX, I've unpacked it and now I working on it with hex editor) :rolleyes: