Honestly, why do u make copies of DVD's

[rishardc]

PLEASE BE HONEST IN THIS POLL
I was recently thinking about DVD2ONE and there wanting to implement copy protection on there softare. While I understand the want to protect there intellectual property, I think its partially a waist of time. People that are going to buy it are going to buy it regardless of the copy protection and people that are going to pirate it are going ot pirate it regardless of which.

The main issue and the reason for this poll is that I think most of us aren't really making backups of our DVD's. I think we all fall into one of a few categories

A) people that honestly are backing up there DVD's
B) People that are renting, or borrowing DVD's and copying them
C) People that are making copies for friends of DVD's that they have bought.

I think when u sell to a bunch of thieves your going to get robbed. I'm just curious as to what the percentage is out there.

[rishardc]

Bump

[frenetic26]

I would like to add another important category in my opinion, because I know alot of people who fall into this Category

D: Copying dvd's because you otherwise wouldnt buy the original.

Let me explain a little bit first. Everyone copied a dvd at one point that though it was worth keeping but not buying, all my copies fall into that category, I wont lie, I have more originals than copies, and every dvd I bought, I bought because it was well worth it. Take for instance the movie "Reign of Fire" I personaly didnt like it that much and though it could have been better, there was no way in Hell I would ever pay for this movie, So if I made a copy, the company didnt loose any money. If this was a title I adored and would have payed good money for, like Gladiator for instance, then yes If I just rented it and made a copy, thats the kind of pirating that companies loose money with.

Did I make any sense?

Frenetic

[int 21h]

Ah, yes, so if I go to the store to buy some bread, and they don't have any of the brand of bread I like.. its ok if I steal some of the generic bread, because I wouldn't buy that normally anyways.

That's a good deal.

[frenetic26]

Int 21-> youre logic is flawed and has no corrolation whatsoever.


Think about it, if I could rent bread, make a copy of said bread with a machine that replicates bread, then bring the bread back to the bread renting store, please tell me how the company loses money?
This is the part you realise your analogy is completely moronic

Cheers

[int 21h]

The licensing system of video stores (even online video stores) is based upon the principle of returning to re-rent a movie if you want to see it again, or purchasing that movie. Nowhere in the temporary license granted to you during rental is the right to make a copy of the movie, in fact, its specifically forbidden. The company does lose money, because obviously you intend to watch the movie again, why else would you make a copy?

This is the part where you come up with yet another excuse to justify your blatant theft.

[DVD Maniac]

Or another way of looking at it is that consumers are completely hacked off by getting screwed by the greedy "bread" makers overcharging for their product so its their way of fighting back....

[mpucoder]

Of course that only leads to the breadmakers raising the price of bread. Which then makes more people feel justified in stealing the bread. And on, and on, until the bread costs so much no one can afford it. That's when someone runs for President promising "Bread Reform".

[int 21h]

Its not necessarily the greedy breadmakers, but the greedy cartel that binds of all of the breadmakers. Stealing from them does not hurt them as much as it helps them. It proves they are right, and that they deserve legislation and man-power (RCMP, FBI, etc) for enforcement of their Intellectual Property.

There are correct ways to protest things, and their are ineffective ways to protest things. Stealing from the MPAA is exactly what they want. What you do with your money and your equipment is your business, but don't try to legitimize copyright violations into some sort of silent protest that is rallying consumers against the MPAA.

[gldblade]

I sorta understand, so I'll express it in a different way.

I download mp3s, and in my mindset, I'm not hurting anyone. Why? Well, under normal circumstances, I would not have bought music CDs anyway since they're way too expensive. So even if I had not downloaded mp3s, record companies would not have made any money from me anyway.

There is a flaw with this though. If I download mp3s, and share them on a p2p network, then I would be stealing from record companies. Someone out there who would normally be willing to buy music CDs would instead be able to get music for free. So if I share mp3s, then I would be encouraging the stealing of revenue from record companies.

Now, to answer the original question. I have only copied two DVDs, and in both cases, I would not have bought the DVDs anyway. And then the copies were subsequently destroyed because someone spilled oil (and lots of it) onto them. So technically, I have not hurt anyone.

*EDIT*
This was a reply made to a previous post, but I typed too slowly, and the discussion continued on without me.

[the_dvd_guru]

why not make your own bread,it saves having to buy,rent your bread every time you or your family/friends want bread.

p.s
wtf mentioned bread!!! is this the new doom9 bakers forum!!
but hey,theres bound to be plenty of dough in it and plus all this new software coming out means i can have my bread and eat it
p.p.s wot makes the best bread?

[int 21h]

Originally posted by the_dvd_guru

p.p.s wot makes the best bread?

Beer.

[DVD Maniac]

Wow, you really are snowed in!

Its the UK where I am pointing my cynicism most (known as Treasure Island by large MNC's)

Just fyi a typical new loaf, (lets drop this analogy) DVD title release price here is around the £20 mark (thats $32!). Oh and how about a CD (£15/$24), a pair of Jeans? - lets talk £100/$160 for a basic pair and so the list goes on. Don't get me wrong - the manufacturers/artists and distributers all deserve a fair return, but this is not fair - its blatant greed.

[int 21h]

Ingredients
3 cups self-rising flour
3/4 cup brown sugar, firmly packed
1 teaspoon cinnamon
One 12-ounce can beer, room temperature
In a large mixing bowl, combine the ingredients.
Pour into a greased loaf pan.
Bake at 350 degrees for 45 minutes.

Makes very tasteful, dense, sweet bread. :)


What is the average wage in the UK? Its hard to compare prices in different regions because of different standards of living and such... but in North America, DVDs are usually had for $12.99-17.99 (in USD), if you get them early... that's one trick I've learned over the years, get your DVDs on release date in a retail store, and usually you save money.

Another good place for North American people is http://www.dvdpricesearch.com and of course the dvd bargains forum at http://www.dvdtalk.com

[abatis]

Actually my main reason for DVD burning is to back up my home movies including the old 8mm shot by my father-in-law (now deceased) in the 60's and 70's. Actually some pretty cool footage.

However, on the piracy issue I believe there is a certain underlying "civil disobedience" factor in the whole movement.

[DVD Maniac]

I am not up with the latest stats but the averafe wage is about £18k/$29k per year. I go to the US frequently on business and compare the basic prices / salaries so I know that the basic cost of living/ wage ratio here sucks. Now you know why the Brits are always moaning!

[Will Hay]

Originally posted by DVD Maniac
I am not up with the latest stats but the averafe wage is about £18k/$29k per year. I go to the US frequently on business and compare the basic prices / salaries so I know that the basic cost of living/ wage ratio here sucks. Now you know why the Brits are always moaning!

The average wage in the UK is just short of £26k :)

[dun4cheap]

you need to add one more line in.



All of the above

[abatis]

Doesn't VAT kind of drive up Euro prices. Also the European tax structure and general gentle socialism drive costs up. Here in the US where it is every man pretty much for himself, the social costs are not included in say a pair of jeans. Maybe the European way is a more civilized way to go but someone has to pay for it.

[snowcrash]

I'm not going to try to justify my making illegal copies of movies, although like frenetic26 said, the vast majority of the time I would not have purchased the DVD anyway. I have to REALLY REALLY like a movie to shell out $15-20 bucks for a DVD.

One thing to keep in mind with DVDs though is that the moviemakers have already made a nice (sometimes HUGE) profit at the box office. So it's hard for me to feel sorry for the movie studios too much.

[abatis]

It seems that what we have is pirating thieves stealing from corporate criminals. It is kind of like drug lords killing each other - does anyone really care?

[DVD Maniac]

Abatis you raise some interesting points. Assume you live in the US so you might not be up with the latest social issues here (UK). Public Services in this country are in turmoil, the transport and utility networks are under funded and don't work, the National Health service should in fact be renamed National Joke

"Ah yes Mr Smith, we were wondering if you might be able to wait a another year or so for your heart bypass operation - here's a temporary DIY kit consisting of a bendy straw and super glue to keep you going - free of charge from the NHS!"

Seriously though this whole pre-paid for Social Services through higher taxes thing is a myth.

I've forgotton what this thread started with now! I'm going to have a stiff drink and calm down.

[MrWGT]

Hi...

the main reason for me to copy a rented dvd is that i liked the film and it's possible that i want to watch the film again. But... About 95% of my copied films i've never watched again... (no time, watched other (new rented) film and so on).

Furthermore: We in germany must pay a "GEMA Gebühr" on each sold dvd-r/-rw media. This fee is given to the copyright holders and artists as compensation for private copies. We do not have the enforceable right to copy dvds, cds or so but the law doesn't want to "criminalize" the personal copy (for car, backup or so). So... we have the fee. (And we are allowed to give that copy to a close family member e.g. brother)

If you buy devices like vcr, cassette recorder, audio cd-r, standalone dvd-r you've to pay the fee too. And it is under discussion to include a fee on each dvd/cd recorder and the pc itself.

IMHO my private copy is legal if

- i copy my own dvds, cds
- i copy dvds or cds from my brother

but i'm in a "gray zone" if i copy rented dvds.

Regards,

Gerd Mitländer

[dysfl]

Just my 2 cents.

The branding of ‘theft’ to copy-righted material was promoted by the big companies, and it has been so successful that we can find numerous people on this forum are preaching the propaganda for those big companines without accepting any monetary comapensations. It is just amazing how successful the process was.

You cannot beat anyone by logical discussion as long as they’re just repeating the scripts. If you’re talking from your own experiences and own reasoning, you’ll lose. Why, because they are just reading the scripts written by professional marketing and PR people. If someone starts the argument with “I’m an artist and I sold only 2,000 music CDs because of the CD-Rs” or “I cannot buy another car because my movie was pirated on the net....”, then I would listen to him/her, even I cannot agree all of them. However, if it starts like, “It is...” or “You say so, but....”, then I’m not reading a person’s thought any more. It’s a copy.

[Flyer9]

I agree. This is called "theft" mainly by the people who least deserve to gain from a particular DVD. Let's see: The author(actors, director, etc.) gets paid heftily (in most cases) at the box office. The makers of the DVD earn multi-fold its worth (calculate the cost of the material, labor, hours, ets.). The only people that may get stiffed are the publishing labels. But they are like the insurance companies, make money out of nothing (well, some promotional costs..). Don't listen to those preachers. Art was meant to be free. Artists always relied upon the people's appreciation of their talents. The middlemen are the ones who turned this into "very profitable" business.
What the heck...

[wanton]

That's so true. Big movie companies just want to maximise their profit and by doing that they trying to get new laws make everyone a pirate. I think region coding is illegal and if i would want i should be able to buy videos from anywhere from the world but most are regionally coded lets say i like Australian movies that never come to where i live but i can't buy them from there because they are in the diffrent region than i. Think about tv if you copy same movie from digital broadcast from there it's not illegal and shouldn't but i pretty sure movie companies would want it to be. Like that DeCSS case how can movie companies make country (Norway in this case) to press charges agains someone when that country didn't have any laws agains what he did back then or i don't know if there are now that i don't know but i bet if Norway was in EU that had never happened this shows how much power movie industry has. And places that rent videos here allready pay movie companies some fee. But music companies are even more evil if you think about that one audio cd might cost more than a dvd and that's because they are over priced and i think mp3's are making music companies thinking about other possibilities like selling music over the net cheap.
Here data cd-r's dvd-r's all have additional fee that goes to company that gives that money to big companies by what movie/music is sold the most by percent of the cake to be exact. So maybe it's diffrent in US where if you buy the movie you can rent it to someone with no extra fee and writable data discs and vhs tapes won't have that extra fee. I'm not sure if it's this way every where in europe but i think it is.

[int 21h]

Ah, quite the opposite, I'm actually quite tired of the ineloquent fools such as yourself carrying on about how you are entitled to freely copy everything and anything you come across, giving the majority of video enthusiasts a bad name, and in the process, providing both legal and practical ammunition for the all-powerful, albeit unfair, cartels to enforce legal and ecnonomic sanctions upon us all. Thank you all, for without your help, we never would have had such great legislation like the NET act, and of course the DMCA.

In Soviet Russia, the DVDs buy you!


Originally posted by dysfl
Just my 2 cents.

The branding of ‘theft’ to copy-righted material was promoted by the big companies, and it has been so successful that we can find numerous people on this forum are preaching the propaganda for those big companines without accepting any monetary comapensations. It is just amazing how successful the process was.

You cannot beat anyone by logical discussion as long as they’re just repeating the scripts. If you’re talking from your own experiences and own reasoning, you’ll lose. Why, because they are just reading the scripts written by professional marketing and PR people. If someone starts the argument with “I’m an artist and I sold only 2,000 music CDs because of the CD-Rs” or “I cannot buy another car because my movie was pirated on the net....”, then I would listen to him/her, even I cannot agree all of them. However, if it starts like, “It is...” or “You say so, but....”, then I’m not reading a person’s thought any more. It’s a copy.

[goober22]

Originally posted by the_dvd_guru
why not make your own bread,it saves having to buy,rent your bread every time you or your family/friends want bread.



Good idea. Anybody know where I can get a "copy" of a bread maker?! :p

[FH2]

Originally posted by MrWGT

IMHO my private copy is legal if

- i copy my own dvds, cds
- i copy dvds or cds from my brother

but i'm in a "gray zone" if i copy rented dvds.


It's no 'gray zone', you are allowed to take any video source and make a copy for your own personal use (at least that is the situation in germany). only limitation is that the source must have been a legal copy, and you're not allowed to give the copy to someone else expect your family and maybe good friends.

[vljenewein]

Will: you make good money for such a youg lad!

When I lived in Seattle, VHS first came out. I bought 3 blank 2 hour VHS tapes for $45.00 and we thought that was a great bargin. Movies sold for $40.00 to $90.00 for the good one, but there were only a very few choice on movies. It's kind of changed:D

I forsee that DVD prices of new, store bought material, will drop as cometition arises and processing cost are finally absorbed. It may come to the point where it's alomst the same cost to "buy" the movie as it is to rent the DVD from the store and then to buy a blank and burn the DVD. Remember.. count your total costs. That DVD burner costs something. 10 burns and you paid 1000.00 for it makes each DVD worth $100.00 just in burner cost, not counting DVD media. Obviously you did not pay $1000 for a burner and have probably burned more than 10 DVDs.. but you get the logistics I'm talking about.

Wal-Mart sells DVDs some are new releases and many are older movies. Older movies sell for around 5.00 to 9.00 each. Rent a movie from Blockbuster.. 2.99 Cost of media 2.00 bulk pack price. 5.00 PLUS the cost of wear and tear on the DVD burner you paid for, so depreciate that into the equation. Pretty soon, better off just buying the movie, with all the extras, DVD9 etc than to rent - Burn - and cost of gas ($1.79/gal here) to return the movie. Don't forget late fees if you forget!! :D

You can substitue a little molasses in the place of the brown sugar if you have that around.. Honey also works quite nice, but Malt Syrup is the way to go laddie!!

[rishardc]

Funny how yesterday no one posted on this thread at all so I had to bump it, and today there are a crap load of posts from out of the blue.

I didn't really start this to start a war or anything. I had a feeling that most people (and by the numbers I'm right) basically copy the DVD's without actually owning a copy of it. Its basic thievery (not that I am ragging on those people).

The whole reason I started this trhead was because the creators of DVD2ONE have stated in another thread that they are going to try to build in better copy protection into there software, which, while I love there software, I think its ridiculous. They are selling it to a bunch of thieves, and are trying to make a better car alarm so they don't get robbed. Unfortunately for them it only takes one master thief to steal the car. The honest people are going to buy it no matter what, but for the most part the thieves are going to steal it. The only thing they are doing is probably pissing off the people that honestly plan to buy it which will make them buy another program.

[Flyer9]

When I lived in Seattle, VHS first came out. I bought 3 blank 2 hour VHS tapes for $45.00 and we thought that was a great bargin. Movies sold for $40.00 to $90.00 for the good one, but there were only a very few choice on movies. It's kind of changed:D

I forsee that DVD prices of new, store bought material, will drop as cometition arises and processing cost are finally absorbed.[/B]

Don't bet your sweet a.. on this. As we all see, THEY (the publishing companies) started to like the taste of fat profits. (I think that the prices of the music CDs did not move down - may be even went up) Growing more and more powerful THEY will just devise more "protections" and "encryptions", will force new legislations but will never give up the MONEY... Therefore in this era of corporate globalization we have to fight back as much as we can and be proud of peoples like Doom9, jdobbs and all other (I am new, so I don't know famous names) smart programmers who make this possible. They will be known in the annals of our time as true HEROES. Keep the good work.

P.S. For those who pretend to be "video enthusiasts" - get down to earth. Or go buy DVDs and don't come back to this forum.:devil:

P.P.S. If anyone knows links for cracks of good programs, let's start a new thread called "FREE FOR ALL".

[MackemX]

I can't understand how people can say they would not have bought it in the 1st place

If so why are you backing it up or keeping a copy of the DVD, CD etc?

If you want to keep it, you should pay for it
I think the thing that sickens most people is the fact that you are paying OTT. You can make a CD for around 10-15% of the original, a DVD maybe inbetween 20-30% of the RRP on an average new DVD (£15ish)

so who gets what of the money and how much does it actually cost to produce a CD & DVD?

CD-WOW must be making a fortune even tho they probably have a smaller profit margin with their excellent prices, they are actually selling 1000's a day so the profit will still be large, why can't all stores be like this

I cannot understand how people can go into highstreet stores and pay £12 for a CD or £20 for a DVD when they can get them off the net for a lot less (surely most people will have heard about internet being cheaper regardless of them having a computer, but I do understand some people will never be able to buy off the internet)

But how come most HS stores still have people buying in the 1000's from them, people should boycott places like that as how can they justify £4-5 more PER item than you can buy off the net?

If CD's were say £6 and DVD's around £10 they would probably sell more!

In fact it probably is true when people say I wouldn't have bought it in the 1st place, but how many of these people would buy them if they were cheaper?
say CD's & DVD's were 1/2 the price would your collection be twice the size?, my guess it would be nearer 3 times, :)

p.s. I wonder how many people who have made or obtained copies of CD's/DVD's/Software etc in their house actually own EVERY original for the copy? :devil: (I bet even Pope John Paul has an illegal copy of something :D )

[int 21h]

Originally posted by Flyer9
...in this era of corporate globalization we have to fight back as much as we can and be proud of peoples like Doom9, jdobbs and all other (I am new, so I don't know famous names) smart programmers who make this possible. They will be known in the annals of our time as true HEROES. Keep the good work.


I've contributed both intellectually and tangibly to many projects in the video community.


P.S. For those who pretend to be "video enthusiasts" - get down to earth. Or go buy DVDs and don't come back to this forum.:devil:


Why must it be you either buy dvds, or you rip dvds off? I enjoy messing around with alot of this technology more than actually getting tangible copies of things that don't belong to me. The enthusiasts far outnumber the likes of you, and the enthusiasts are the ones who push this hobby forward with innovation.

If we were in Soviet Russia right now, I'd run you over with my YUGO.


P.P.S. If anyone knows links for cracks of good programs, let's start a new thread called "FREE FOR ALL".

I hope you're joking.

[int 21h]

Originally posted by MisterX
...

I think you're right on with a lot of this.

[mpucoder]

Originally posted by Flyer9
For those who pretend to be "video enthusiasts" - get down to earth. Or go buy DVDs and don't come back to this forum.:devil:

A rather harsh statement from someone so new to our forum. As Int21 said, there are a lot of us here just for the education, and that's not in quotes, as it is in hacker circles.

If anyone knows links for cracks of good programs, let's start a new thread called "FREE FOR ALL".

That would be a violation of the forum rules. It is expressly forbidden to ask for or supply links to warez.

[svcdentro]

I think it's a complex topic that won't be decided here if we dare to be correctly moral, because the place where you are defines the perspective and the logic you're using, so every post is valid and we don't have to apply the thoughts that doesn't respond to our concrete reality, for example:
You've talked about the context, uk and usa economic levels and prices so i can talk about the latinamerican life and there it's completely and ethically valid to copy DVDs, why?? Among several reasons i choose because too many people don't earn more than 3 usd a day and they have to sustain a whole family so how can they enjoy world cinema if not copying DVDs and who has the right to private their spirits from this pleasure? Think twice because it legitimates a way of life that doesn't depend from us, it's a world economical, political and social matter....

[just_maurice]

when u have kids who scratch up everything then u appreciate being able to copy a dvd and letting them use the copy instead of the originals. by the the movie studios will not replace a damage dvd for a small fee, they want almost the regular price to replace the damage dvds. in my household we have 3 dvd players. do i have to buy 3 copies of the same movie because we have 3 players?

[herbapou]

I am getting seriously annoy by the people who cant make the difference between piracy and fair used. There is a reason why its legal in most countries to copy music or movies from radio, music CD's, TV broadcast, VHS or DVD's.

Before I post you the legal articles for Canada, I will try to explain you why. There is 2 powers figthing each other here: on one side there is the movie/music industry and on the other side there are consumer groups and comons sense.

If the movie/music industry could have it there way, there would be no VHS, DVD or music CD's. You would had to "rent" every piece of material you want to watch/listen per used. They even tried to pull this off at the beginning of the digital medias.

On the other hand, the consumers wants to be able to make unrestricted number of copies of everything they want. Some even want to be able to share copies with there friends. But they will all agree that selling or counterfitting copies is piracy.

In the middle of all this is the law. I am not going to talk about the encryption laws and the cracking of copy protection because those laws are not related to the copyrights laws. Here is the law regarding the copying of copyright material for Canada:

Private copying refers to the making of copies of pre-recorded musical works, performer’s performances and sound recordings onto a blank recording medium, such as audio tape or cassette for personal use. An example is buying a blank tape, going home and making a second copy of your favorite tape so you can have a copy to play in the car. Another example is borrowing a tape from a friend and making your own copy instead of buying one. Three copyrights can be involved when private copies are made: copyright in the sound recording, copyright in the music and copyright in the performer’s performance. Because these copies are made privately, creators cannot enforce their copyright and consequently cannot collect the royalties due.

Effective March 19, 1998 the Copyright Act permits these private copies to be made and introduces a levy to compensate copyright owners for royalties lost to private copying. The levy is collected on all blank audio recording media, for example, on cassettes and tapes. The levy applies to all blank recording media made or imported into Canada. The rules governing with the private copying levy are contained in sections 79 to 88 of the Copyright Act.

In the United States, they call it "Fair Use".

But how could it be legal to copy rented or borrow material??

The main rules regarding private copying are this:

1. Copie must be made from originals only.
2. Copie must only be for the private and non-collective used of the person making the copy.
3. Copie must not be copy again.

Those rules implied lots of things.

#1: You cant copy from another copy. You cant download music/movies from the internet, EVEN if you own it. So any kind of peer to peer application would always be illegal.
#2: You cant make copies for somebody else: For example, it would be illegal to back-up DVD's for your buddy who doesnt have a DVD burner even if he owns those DVD's and copies are for him only.
#3: Well, thats kind of obvious giving rule #1, but I mention it anyway. The industry didnt mind too much about analog medias because of the lost of quality when making copies of copies. But with the digital age, thats another story.

The problem is people dont respect those basic rules. If all people could do private copying within the law, the special tax on blank medias would compensate for it. But its so easy to distribute copies of digital material that its hurts the industry to the bone and really hurts sales. Be gradefull that we have an exception that allow us to make copies and try to respect the rules and everyone will be happy.

[int 21h]

FairUse has been seriously neutered in the United States with the DMCA. I know you wanted to specifically avoid this topic, but I think its worth pointing out that if you have to bypass any sort of content protection mechanism, your rights to FairUse are essentially void.

[herbapou]

int 21h:

Copy protection is part of the war the industry is making on the consumers. When FairUse was pass or Private Copying was pass in Canada, the insdustry still tried to prevent it by adding encryption.

The encryption laws were originally designs to protect digital information such has banking ATM traffic or military secrets. It then extend to the internet. This is why cracking protection is such a serious offence.

The moved to add copy protection on VHS and music CD's (and DVD's when the came out) to prevent the consumers from making private copies is borderline illegal. This is why courts are so soft on applying encryption laws when copies are made inside the "private copying exception".

When you do a copy of copy protected material inside the "private copying" frame, no copyrigh laws are broken. Therefore, the owner of the material cannot attempt civil actions. Criminal offences regarding copyrights are limited to the distributions of copies or counterfits. When you crack the protection of encryted data, you are making a criminal offense. That means the governement is the one that has to sue you. But, has I said, the courts are generally not pressing charges when the copies are made inside the fairuse laws.

Personnally, I think the industry should push the law enforcement agencies to get the smaller scale distribution networks. That means a bunch of students selling copies of console games, downloaded music or software. Instead of fighting FairUse, they should promote it. Make it clear of what you can or cannot do.

If someone think its always illegal to copy lets say a music CD, he will make no special effort to copy from an original. If everyone who makes copies would make an effort to copy from an original, a lot more originals would be sold. For example, 5 buddies could go out and buy one CD each and borrow them to makes copies to respect the law instead of all downloading MP3 from peer to peer sites.

[mpucoder]

So much Canadian and US law intermixed there it's confusing. In the United States encryption laws and the DMCA are not related. DVDs are not covered by encryption laws, as they are not, by any standard, encrypted. And certainly not by any NSA encryption method. Video DVDs, CDs, and analog sources such as VHS and cable TV are considered scrambled.
Our fair use law dates back to before any digital media was in popular use, even before consumer video recorders. The introduction of the BetaMax (for the youngun's its an analog video recorder similar in many respects to VHS, but with a better picture. Poor marketing killed it.) resulted in a test of the law, with Sony, maker of the Betamax, winning.

Edit: clarify that as Video DVDs are scrambled, Audio DVD makes use of encryption.

[int 21h]

Uhm... in the United States, the DCMA effectively overrules FairUse, confirmed not only by MPAA vs. The World, but also shown in Doom9's analysis of so long ago...

Originally from http://doom9.org/dmca_revealed.htm

This is a big one. As you can read in Judge Kaplan's statement about the preliminary injunction against 2600.com he made it abundantly clear that the defendants were not being charged for copyright infringement but rather for dissemination of a tool that violates 1201a2. However 1201c states that the whole section shall affect fair use. In order to exercise fair use as granted by the US copyright act, you have to be able to copy a movie - in that case the DVD. And in order to do so you need to decrypt the movie or get rid of the analog copy protection mechanism known as Macrovision. So here's the problem: You have the right to copy your own movie for personal use but you're barred from circumventing any copy-protection mechanism. So what can you do? If you want to interpret section 1201a strictly to the letter that would mean that fair use is essentially dead. As soon as content is protected by any any-copy technology fair use rights do not apply anymore. This interpretation has been criticized by numerous law professors throughout the United States.

The question clearly is what do you weigh more: Protecting copyrights no matter what - or allow circumventing of copy-protection schemes for fair use?

Judge Kaplan has made his view clear. Many disagree with him. And many of those are as capable in legal matters as him. It's my firmest belief that fair use rights should be weighed more. I believe it's safe to assume that everyone among us has always considered a product to be his to own forever as soon as it had been acquired. The movie industry has already tried to take that right away from us by launching DIVX - the new defunct Circuit City pay-per-view DVD system. Now they're trying it again - this time by lobbying the congress to pass a law that grants them their desired rights to control a movie even after they sold it. This is completely against the everything mentioned in the Berne Convention - which the US has signed, too.

Going on in his further analysis after the verdict was given...

Originally from http://doom9.org/dmca_revisited.htm
Judge:
"Defendants claim also that the possibility that DeCSS might be used for the purpose
of gaining access to copyrighted works in order to make fair use of those works saves them under
Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios, Inc.167 But they are mistaken. Sony does not apply to the
activities with which defendants here are charged. Even if it did, it would not govern here. Sony
involved a construction of the Copyright Act that has been overruled by the later enactment of the
DMCA to the extent of any inconsistency between Sony and the new statute. "

Doom9:
So here we have our confirmation of the story above. DMCA overrules Copyright Act. Palpatine overrules fair use. The evil empire begins..


And so even though the original legislation may read like:

(c) OTHER RIGHTS, ETC., NOT AFFECTED.-(1) Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title.

The tone has been set for future cases...

The DMCA basically covers all DRM technologies under its ridiculous cloak.

[herbapou]

mpucoder

I only did extended research on Canadian laws since I am canadien. The copyright laws are very different from country to country indeed. The Canadien laws are closer to Germany and France laws than the US laws.

The most amazing thing is the discrepency between french and english copyright message on bilingual DVD's in Canada. The french governement force the insdustry to show the private copying exception in the copyright message on VHS and DVD's. Since the french copyright message and audio tracks are often ports of region 2 DVD's, they often keep the same "french" copyright message on Canadien DVD's. Whats odd is the english copyright message doesnt mention the private copy exception. The discrepency between the 2 messages on the same DVD is what made me look at the Canadien laws.

BTW if you have french audio tracks on some US DVD's, you may just have the private copying exception in the french copyright message even on US DVD's. The words to look for are those: "...toute reproduction, sauf pour l'usage personnel du copiste, ..."

[jacobjef]

My 2 cents. I think that the RIAA & MPAA make plenty of money, and use strong-armed tactics to ensure compliance and forbade competition. Most all products will eventially become obsolete, and the companies that make products have to continually update and improve their product if it is going to continue to be profitable for them to produce. In the case of the MPAA & RIAA, they are nothing more than unwilling to accept the advancements in technology and would probably like to see the Internet cease to exist, because they either don't want to change or are afraid to change. There are plenty of methods that these organizations and there subscribers could to do to continue to be make a profitable product. Some are even being utilized now. Such as the movie industry's increased efforts to add another company's product, or essentially a commercial, into their programs or movies. If anything, technology will enhance their abilities to sell their product to wider audience. They just need to be a litte more creative, and accept technology for what it is.

[Will Hay]

I'd like to add my two cents to this wonderfully entertaining thread if I may.
A clear argument rages about the huge studios ripping off the consumer with high price dvd's.
One might argue that in this day of greed this isn't exactly going against the grain in today's world, and it could be argued they are simply demanding *their* slice of this big fat money cake.
It's of no doubt to me the only way to combat this spiralling problem of piracy is to reduce prices to an acceptable, reasonable level.
Someone raised a point about dvd's being cheaper to make than vhs, which in turn are cheaper to buy on the high street than dvd's.
This may or may not be true but the studio's would have us believe we dvd buyers are paying for special scenes, the extra's, the three different endings and the clip of the lead actor falling over and getting a laugh.
Rubbish in my opinion but there you go.
It may also be the case that studio's are now requesting budgets from fundraisers on the basis of anticipated *total* revenue, rather than just box office sales whichI envisage is by no means the largest income for a movie nowadays. The argument therefore that studio's have already earned their money from the box office and are being greedy charging £20 for a 4 disk LORT dvd is fundermentally flawed, in my opinion.
I had to laugh at the comment someone made about the crimimals making software to illegal copy movies and then whinging about people cracking it!
Good point and whilst I don't agree with it entirely (as there are clearly some of us using this software for legitimate use), excellent polls such as this only demonstrates the main use of it.
Finally ask yourself this question...
...you winge about the price of dvd's, the exhorbitent fees charged for dvd's yet you still pay your £500.00 a year for your season ticket at your local footie (soccer) team, you still pay your £40 a month for satellite tv who are in turn funding sportsmen to the tune of £80k a week earnings, so where's the difference?
Why support one disgraceful state of greed and proclaim to be the victim on another?
Just my ha-penny (if you're my generation in the UK) :)
Will Hay

[N3m1515]

The greedy basta*d Co's use the excuse of 1% of dvd users pirating them to overcharge the rest. I am sick of it as I have had it since music cds came out.

Maybe EVERYONE should pirate them so THEY know how it feels to be ripped off severely...

I only buy dvds now I really, really like, I also feel entitled to rent then copy dvds I own on vhs although the Comapanies probably have a law against that.

They are simply too expensive, £1-2 for a good blank disc and cover and 19 pound for what???

[int 21h]

Well, DVDs aren't exactly cheap to take to a decent mastering house and get done, (Look at the price of the software and hardware alone!) and usually it is a substantial investment of time and money on the part of studios to produce these titles (see http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=711&ncid=738&e=7&u=/usatoday/20030217/tc_usatoday/4871855)

That being said, it doesn't give them the right to manipulate prices on ALL discs through a shady cartel.


Originally posted by Will Hay
I'd like to add my two cents to this wonderfully entertaining thread if I may.
A clear argument rages about the huge studios ripping off the consumer with high price dvd's.
One might argue that in this day of greed this isn't exactly going against the grain in today's world, and it could be argued they are simply demanding *their* slice of this big fat money cake.
It's of no doubt to me the only way to combat this spiralling problem of piracy is to reduce prices to an acceptable, reasonable level.
Someone raised a point about dvd's being cheaper to make than vhs, which in turn are cheaper to buy on the high street than dvd's.
This may or may not be true but the studio's would have us believe we dvd buyers are paying for special scenes, the extra's, the three different endings and the clip of the lead actor falling over and getting a laugh.
Rubbish in my opinion but there you go.
It may also be the case that studio's are now requesting budgets from fundraisers on the basis of anticipated *total* revenue, rather than just box office sales whichI envisage is by no means the largest income for a movie nowadays. The argument therefore that studio's have already earned their money from the box office and are being greedy charging £20 for a 4 disk LORT dvd is fundermentally flawed, in my opinion.
I had to laugh at the comment someone made about the crimimals making software to illegal copy movies and then whinging about people cracking it!
Good point and whilst I don't agree with it entirely (as there are clearly some of us using this software for legitimate use), excellent polls such as this only demonstrates the main use of it.
Finally ask yourself this question...
...you winge about the price of dvd's, the exhorbitent fees charged for dvd's yet you still pay your £500.00 a year for your season ticket at your local footie (soccer) team, you still pay your £40 a month for satellite tv who are in turn funding sportsmen to the tune of £80k a week earnings, so where's the difference?
Why support one disgraceful state of greed and proclaim to be the victim on another?
Just my ha-penny (if you're my generation in the UK) :)
Will Hay

[Will Hay]

Originally posted by int 21h
That being said, it doesn't give them the right to manipulate prices on ALL discs through a shady cartel.

Nope, it doesn't - absolutely right :)
I'm rather a classic' movie collector (if you're in the UK you *may* appreciate where my username comes from) and have noticed a lot of the older movies are *very* cheap now, this is clearly the way to go.
As an example, LORT is now £9.99 in the UK which for me is worth buying.
I don't mind waiting as if I like a movie enough to buy it I'll have already seen it at the cinema, and hopefully by waiting long enough it'll be half the price of that when it first came out.
I'm not re-inventing the wheel by stating the only way to combat piracy is to reduce prices, it's simple economics.
Not that I copy anything I don't legally own but I'd buy more if they were cheaper, that simple premise would mean people like myself are funding the shortfall of lower prices.
Simple eh? ;)
Will

[herbapou]

I think classical movies prices are Ok. But there is abuse on new movies. This is why I buy "pre-vision" movies at blockbusters for new movies and new DVD`s for classic movies.