Upcoming Subtitling Program

[Xombie]

Howdy, I checked with the moderator before posting this to make sure I wasn't being rude.

For the past few months (on and off in my freetime) I've been working on a replacement program for Sub Station Alpha. I'm a timer for Soldats and have timed a pretty good amount of episodes with SSA. And... well... I dunno. I was frustrated with it at times before the whole ass spec/textsub stuff came out. After those two were out I just started day dreaming of a new program that could handle them internally... like providing interfaces to the user to handle all the overrides (including functions like \pos(), \move(), \fade() & \fad()).

Well, this last Thursday my program made it into beta and I've got a few people testing it out and providing feedback on bugs & feature changes/additions. I've already timed 7 episodes with the program and did so without it crashing on me at any time. There are still bugs to be worked out and some features that I want added before a public release but I think that's getting relatively near.

So what's it called? XombieSub.

So what's it do? Well, reads a large amount of audio files, for one. You aren't limited to 8 bit mono wavs anymore. mp3s are readable, for example. Also, you have a handy little video window that will follow you while you time (current frame reflects end audio selection and will seek while you create a new audio selection). The video window has a lot of standard things like frame advancing, keyframe advancing, two different playing modes, frame saving/copying and the ability to set the audio selection start/end time from the current video time. So there you have a mix of video/audio timing.

And if that wasn't nifty enough, you have the ability to enable subtitle display while timing. Check a little checkbox and XombieSub will now display TextSub subtitles in the little video window. These are based off of your current script as you add/delete lines so you don't have to save & reload the video to see the subs.

What else? A gui interface for override commands. And since you have the video window option, you can see your overrides immediately onscreen. So now you can easily preview how your line might look with a different color (a new color picker is available that allows you to select a portion of the video screen to zoom into and then you can select pixel colors from there), or how bluring the edges or rotating in x/y/z, etc... All that can be accomplished without you touching the keyboard to add in override commands. Currently the \pos, \move, \fade and \fad overrides are also supported and since you have a video window with frame advance buttons you can find exact times for the different time inputs on those commands (like \move or \fade). Buttons are provided to easily grab the video time so you don't have to type it in. I plan on adding in gui support for \t() and \clip() this week. \clip() promises to be fun - I plan on letting the user draw the clipping directly on the video screen.

And last of the really neat features is an enhanced karaoke timing mode. It works with existing non-karaoke overrides and will load the syllables into the audio window for you to easily resize. It's really hard for me to explain it without a screenshot but I've got some screens on my website as well as 2 outdated videos (new features have been added since the videos were done). So far the opinion has been that the karaoke mode is extremely good.

There are several more features beyond SSA's like line Notes (lines have keys now) and such but I don't want to take up all this space with my yammering.

Lastly, the program is currently in beta and not available for public release. When it's ready for the public it'll be totally free to download & use. I'll call it EmailWare. As in, grab it play with it and maybe you could send me an email telling me who you are and if you like it. Or not. My first hope is that the program is useful to people.

Anyway, grab a look and don't laught at my poor web design. I'm by no means an html person:

http://www.seijin.net/XombieSub.html

[Zarxrax]

Oh, cool, this is really great. I knew a guy that was making something exactly like this, and was about half-way finished, then disappeared :\ Hell, I know of at least 2 others that were working on similar things, but its great to see that something is finally available!

[Xombie]

Well, hopefully soon to be publicly available. I think I'm going to try targeting the start of 2003 for a public release. I think it'd be really nifty to have it out on Jan 1st, 2003 but I suppose that's up to the beta testers & myself to determine. The good thing is, I work fast and the base code for most everything is already there. Like adding in an interface for the \move() override took about 2 hours since I'd already spent a while getting the base Override functions in.

There aren't many more features I want to add to version 1 so once I get all of the override functions in and all the obvious bugs worked out, I'll look at the possibility of adding unicode support to version 1. More like than not I'll finish the overrides, get in a lot of bug fixing and then release publicly. From there I'd add in spell checking and unicode as incremental updates.

Beyond that I have some more outlandish ideas that might wait for a version 2.

And here's a little secret. It wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if nobody used the program but me because I like it and I'm not charging for it so.... :shrug: It makes timing for me a lot easier already in it's beta state so if I'm the only one that likes it, so be it.

[Zarxrax]

No man, I can assure you that at least one other person will be using this program religiously :p And very likely the entire fansubbing community ^^

[Xombie]

You're far too kind. I'll have to wait until my beta testers get all un-Thanksgiving'ed since I released the beta on the 28th. I got one tester that's given a lot of feedback. He really liked the karaoke timing mode and seems to like the rest as well. I believe he was going to time a full ep shortly and let me know how it goes. And the ones that responded seem to think the video window is extremely handy.

One of my recent favorites is the override form. I was playing with a recent build and I went from a plain non-override line consisting of "Sexy" (it was the clip I use of Elie... ^_^) and within about two minutes I had a resized, slightly rotated, scaled(x), new font name "Sexy" subtitle positioned at the small of Elie's back. Without touching the keyboard to type in any overrides. Oh, I had matched the color of the sub to her jean color using the video color picker as well. ^_^ Very, very handy & quick.

edit: I keep forgetting to mention that the current iteration of the override+video is a bit slowish. I'm getting nowhere near real time updating in that area. However, I have an idea or two that I'm working on that may speed it up. As it is now, it's definately usable, just not the speediest at showing your updates.

edit #2: I always forget to mention this small but handy feature. If you've got the video window open and you select an audio segment that crosses a video keyframe, XombieSub will post a little message in the bottom of the window to the effect of: "Selected Time Crosses Video Keyframe At HH:MM:SS.MS" and then display a button titled "Set End Time To Previous Frame". Hitting that button will set your audio end selection time to the keyframe start - 5ms. Automatic bleed prevention right there. Look at the screenshot here and look at the bottom of the main window and you'll see what I mean: http://www.seijin.net/XombieSub/Screenshot-VideoSubs.html

Small but *very* useful to me.

[Zarxrax]

Here's an idea, not sure if it would be possible for you to do or not... but how about build a scene change detecting algorithm into the program that can be used instead of keyframes? I'm not sure how others typically do it, but I don't normally time from video that has keyframes at the scene changes. I typically either convert to huffyuv or divx 3.11 fast motion with keyframes every second when I am subbing. By doing this I am able to seek backwards very quickly. However if you work from a video file that has keyframes spaced out at scene changes, it can take forever to find a certain frame that you are looking for.

[timecop]

Originally posted by Zarxrax
Here's an idea, not sure if it would be possible for you to do or not... but how about build a scene change detecting algorithm into the program that can be used instead of keyframes? I'm not sure how others typically do it, but I don't normally time from video that has keyframes at the scene changes. I typically either convert to huffyuv or divx 3.11 fast motion with keyframes every second when I am subbing. By doing this I am able to seek backwards very quickly. However if you work from a video file that has keyframes spaced out at scene changes, it can take forever to find a certain frame that you are looking for.

I think the problem with this program is the author is trying to make it a GUI karaoke/fonts/style/whatever editor, while most people in the business of *timing* would be much more interested in *stable* clone of SSA minus all the color-changing features, with *stable* timing assistance options such as the one you mentioned above, or automatic pre-timing by wave peaks, etc. If/When this ever gets released we'll see, but so far I see little value in most of the features described on the site.
Also I am not quite understanding the "speed" issues the author mentions, if he would go ahead and use directshow for the video preview, I can't imagine how this would be slow by any means. Unless, of course, he uses VB, but in that case the project is already doomed :)

[Xombie]

Killed before it's even released, huh? Let's see if I can answer the two posts here.

First, Zarxrax. Your idea is reasonable and I could see working on it after I get the more important aspects of the program in place. As I said earlier, for the first public release I plan on finishing the override form and killing all the bugs I find. Once that build is released, I'll be able to work on any advanced features that I would like to see put into place.

Now timecop. I think you're wrong. I am a timer. I've timed well over 50 episodes. I think that puts me into the business of timing and gives me a reasonable idea of what is involved in the process. But yes, I am trying to make a gui karaoke/fonts/style/whatever editor as you put it. I modeled my program around Sub Station Alpha since it was the program I used so often. I kept in the features I've used or seen other timers used. Karaoke timing is one of them. I don't know if you've ever used SSA's karaoke timing mode but it's not the easiest or most practical interface available. I had an idea on how to make it better so I did for my program. I'm happy with how it turned out and the people that've tried it were impressed. As for the fonts/style/whatever - yes I've also put in an editor for that. I'm using the ass specs because they offer more control over the subtitles than the standard ssa script. SSA has it's style manager, I have mine. Just because I'm using the ass specifications - does that make it less stable?

"... with *stable* timing assistance options such as the one you mentioned above"

I have a very stable timing assistance option such as the one he mentions. Mine currently doesn't go as deep as he'd like but it's available, it works and it hasn't crashed. And neither of those features are in SSA. You mention automatic pre-timing. That's something I want to work on... after everything else. It's icing on the cake if I were to do it. It's not needed for timing in the same way that a "gui karaoke/fonts/style/whatever editor" is needed, but it sure makes the job a lot easier for the timer/typesetter, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, if/when the program is released you will see, if you care to try it. And the wonderful thing about the program? The override form is optional. The karaoke timing mode is optional. The video window is optional. Don't touch any of these and you have a timing engine that handles the needs of any digisubber timer. All of those features are optional and were built separate so as not to get in the way of the main purpose of the program - adding times to subtitles in a script format readable by the subtitle filters. Don't like the ass spec? Export your file as an ssa file.

The speed issue I mentioned is solely in the realm of the override functions. And then only if you have the video window open. Again (as with many features), you don't need the video window for overriding. It will work just fine and much more quickly without it. And I'm working on making the video+override functions faster.

"Unless, of course, he uses VB, but in that case the project is already doomed"

Well then, I suppose my project is doomed for failure. I'm not embarrased to say that I used Visual Basic for the program. It's what I know. Yes, I'm very much aware that programmers view VB as an inferior language. I don't care. Perhaps if I knew C/C++ I would've used it. I don't. I fail to understand how my project is now doomed. Are the 7 scripts I timed with the program a figment of my imagination? No. Does the program stutter, sputter and die on me every two seconds? No. Holding an elitist attitude over something like this makes no sense. But yes, there are still bugs in the program. Yes, it does complain on occasion and lock the user out. That's why it's in a beta testing phase. Is this unique to Visual Basic? I don't think so.

But you know what? Read a post or two above. I've said it many times and I'll say it again. I care not a whit if nobody but myself uses this program. The only reason I'm releasing it beyond my own group is because SSA is getting a little long in the tooth and I had the time & talents to make the program. It does what I want it to do and I'm happy. I'll give other people the option of trying it out to see if they like it as well. If they don't, then no harm done. I'm not charging for the program so I have no financial interests in it. Hell, if the program tanks, I can work on it at my leisure and start playing Go again. I'd have all kinds of free time all of a sudden.

Take it or leave it, just please don't bash something you haven't even tried.

[Alexander Gregorius]

can this software use with premiere to add karaoke text on my avi files ? and how about joystick to move the text color ? thanks before ...

[Xombie]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean but it currently uses the TextSub (or subtitle filter if exporting to SSA) filter and virtualdub/nandub/avisynth to apply karaoke effects to AVI files.

And currently there's no interface with joysticks, either. I don't understand what you mean by moving (changing?) the text color using a joystick. There is a style manager to change the style colors and a color picker for the override form but that's about it. Does SSA allow for color changing using a joystick? I keep getting this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I've heard something about this before... something to do with hard-subbers, maybe?

[Alexander Gregorius]

using joystick for timming, and where's the beta software ?

[ArdenDag]

I'll be waiting for this, so I can use it for subbing some of my movies :D

[Xombie]

Originally posted by Alexander Gregorius
using joystick for timming, and where's the beta software ?

Well, it's in beta. I have a small team testing it out and providing me feedback on bugs & features. Whenever we decide it's ready for release, I'll host it on my website for anyone to download freely.

[Kyo]

Sure a beta test to download!, and you will get a lot of feedback on bugs & features(I think that more over features :p )

For me seem a good program, or atleast a good images :D

[Xombie]

Now there's a scary thought - a completely public beta. I'd have all sorts of emails asking for this feature/change/etc... & I'd probably kill my hosting service with the amount of emails on bugs... =_=

Thanks for the complement, but it's like those fashion magazines. You know how they supposedly touch up their cover models to get rid of any wrinkles & stuff? Well, in reality the main form just has a few buttons, I used Photoshop to add in the audio window & such ^_^ Yeah... right. Truthfully, I just can't seem to figure out a layout that I'm happy with on that main form. I finally got the bottom part done to my satisfaction after adding in user-defined sections & moving things around but that extreme upper-right part of the main window just refuses to click into place.

But hey, that's what the testers are for, yeah?

[timecop]

Real programmers concentrate on code quality and program usability.
VB programmers spend days moving buttons around the "form".
I really wish whoever "ran off" that was mentioned in one of the earlier posts here would come back, because at least his version was written using C++ and not 5 years old (how old is VB6 now? haha) programming environment.

[masken]

@timecop, what's your problem really? You're hanging yourself up on technicalitites and seem to focus on the unimportant without apparently even having had a go with the aplication itself. Quite childish if you ask me :rolleyes: If you'd been an experienced programmer yourself, you would have known that VB indeed has it's purposes, and everything doesn't have to be programmed with C++, even if it's a more advanced language that opens many more doors.

For me this looks like an interesting project, and I'd love to test it.

[htc10825]

Xombie,
1. your pages are currently down.
2. as you've said, this program read/import from the SSA script to make subs. But as you should also know, in net there are thousends of Subs in format subrip/microDVD, so far I know there is no tool to convert microDVD subs to SSA. I have many of them and have never used SSA. Is it possible to import the microDVD subs in next beta?
3. as you've said, your program uses the textsub function from vobsub, thus it can only for the burned sub produced while encoding. The resauts are not removable/switchable. If we want to make switchable subs for DVD/SVCD, we need .bmp sub files. Is this function are planed in the near future?

[gabest]

Let me correct a few misunderstandings if I'm already here :)

2. There are many progs to convert into ssa, but textsub will read the microdvd format as well.
3. This program is a tool to create/edit/time subtitles not to encode them into the picture (as I understand).

[Xombie]

Originally posted by htc10825
Xombie,
1. your pages are currently down.
2. as you've said, this program read/import from the SSA script to make subs. But as you should also know, in net there are thousends of Subs in format subrip/microDVD, so far I know there is no tool to convert microDVD subs to SSA. I have many of them and have never used SSA. Is it possible to import the microDVD subs in next beta?
3. as you've said, your program uses the textsub function from vobsub, thus it can only for the burned sub produced while encoding. The resauts are not removable/switchable. If we want to make switchable subs for DVD/SVCD, we need .bmp sub files. Is this function are planed in the near future?

1. I checked the site when I got up this morning and read your message. It looks to be working fine now.

2. Ditto to what Gabest said. If you aren't modifying the timing for the microdvd script, you can bypass the whole issue and just use TextSub with the microDVD file. As an aside - is there a website for microDVD? Perhaps one that discusses the file format?

3. Again, it's as Gabest says. The way I'm using TextSub is like a preview option. While you're in xSub you can enable the subtitles in your video window and play parts (or the the whole thing) of the video to see how your timing looks. I also use it for the typesetting part of the program. Definately no encoding involved on my end - I wouldn't presume to pretend I could make an encoding program near what's available.

3a. Subs for DVD/SVCD - I've spoken to the author of MaestroSBT about compatibility with his program. Since xSub can export using the SSA format, you can use a program like his to create the subs you're looking for. It seemed there are plenty of nice programs that accomplishes this task so I didn't really see a need to put in a feature to do the same thing. But who knows? If people like the program and ask for that functionality... It might be fun to give it a shot.

[htc10825]

2. There are many progs to convert into ssa, but ...Please tell me which program dose convert microDVD format to SSA. The same is for mDVD to .srt. I've found only the programs in the inverse convertion direction...., but textsub will read the microdvd format as wellafter installation of your program(vobsub) I cannt found any doc for the using of textsub(syntax for avisynth script to import mDVD subs). If it can and loads the subs I still miss the karaoke function, so the xSub is not superfluous(thus also the sub formats convertion which reads only the SSA format).3. This program is a tool to create/edit/time subtitles not to encode them into the picture (as I understand). But we can use the created subs in textsub, and put them in avisynth, so we can encode the karaoke subs to VCD/SVCD/DVD. Is that not the great function of your program(vobsub)?is there a website for microDVD? Perhaps one that discusses the file formatthe format is very simple: http://www.doom9.org/Soft21/Players/mdvdp12.exe
in the doc there is descriptions. We need only the basic format without control codes3a. Subs for DVD/SVCD - I've spoken to the author of MaestroSBT about compatibility with his program. Since xSub can export using the SSA format, you can use a program like his to create the subs you're looking for. It seemed there are plenty of nice programs that accomplishes this task For the switchable karaoke-subs we need the time based masken other than 1000 bmps for just one line of lyrics.
After all - xSubs could be a great work if we could use it(or just see it live) at all.

[Xombie]

after installation of your program(vobsub) I cannt found any doc for the using of textsub(syntax for avisynth script to import mDVD subs). If it can and loads the subs I still miss the karaoke function, so the xSub is not superfluous(thus also the sub formats convertion which reads only the SSA format).
For loading the textsub filter in avisynth you'd use:
AviSource("<path to video>")
LoadPlugin ("<path to textsub.vdf>")
TextSub ("<path to subtitle file>")

But we can use the created subs in textsub, and put them in avisynth, so we can encode the karaoke subs to VCD/SVCD/DVD. Is that not the great function of your program(vobsub)?
Yep, with avisynth and Gabest's filter (pointed to a subtitle file) you can encode your video to include karaoke or whatever functions are allowed by the supported subtitle.

...in the doc there is descriptions. We need only the basic format without control codes
Interesting. Frame based, huh? I suppose converting that to the milliseconds that I would need wouldn't be too bad. The control codes would be interesting to convert. I know, you said you wouldn't need them but if I put in an option to convert from a format, I'd have to support it all the way. I mean, I wouldn't *have* to but it'd bug me putting something only partially in place.

For the switchable karaoke-subs we need the time based masken other than 1000 bmps for just one line of lyrics.
After all - xSubs could be a great work if we could use it(or just see it live) at all.
Well, it's not available for public use yet but since you seem very interested in the karaoke part of it, you can "see it live" by downloading the two little movies I have for the karaoke timing mode. More functionality has been added to it in the meantime but it would give you a view of it in action, more or less. Not quite the same as being there and using it yourself but better than a static shot.

Gabest'll have to point you to a program that can convert to SSA. I've never had to try it so I don't know where any are, either.

Edit: Wait, scratch that. MaybeSubtitle Tool (http://www.tomzavodny.cz/program/subtool/index_en.php) can do what you're asking for.

[gabest]

Please tell me which program dose convert microDVD format to SSA. The same is for mDVD to .srt. I've found only the programs in the inverse convertion direction.You don't have to go far, there is subresync right in vobsub's installer.after installation of your program(vobsub) I cannt found any doc for the using of textsub.\docs\textsub.txt

[masken]

is there a website for microDVD? Perhaps one that discusses the file format
http://ahriman.bucharest.roedu.net/pub/Windows/MicroDVD/Docs/Documentation.html

[htc10825]

@masken: the doc is outdated.

@Gabest:
Your tool is great. But I still miss the convertion I-Author(.txt) to Subrip(.srt). The reason: I have many .bmp subs created by I-Athor' OGT-Creator, but I want to mux them with bbMPEG+WinSubmux. WinSubmux accepts only philips svcd sub format(which can be converted from .srt in Subrip).
Another question: when we rip only some chapters from a music DVD with Smartripper/DVDDecrypter, the resault a big vob file. But when we use your vobsub to indexing the subtitles of the VOB, it produces the index file with the timing for whole DVD, but contents for the ripped VOB file! So in the VOB(also the video processing of avisynth) the chpt. 7 follows chpt. 1, but you'll not see the subs in chpt 7 because the vobsub plugin for avisynth are waiting for the timing of chpt. 7 in the whole DVD(after 20min). How can I overcome this issue?
Rip every chapter separate and join them together with diff. starting time are surely a bad approach.
@Xombie:
I've made many Karaoke-SVCDs use I-Author with switchable subs, but I-Author cannt make subs for VCD/DVD, also cannt make burned subs. The I-Author is very, very buggy and the subs cannot be displayed on every dvd player(20%-40%). For a long time I can only use the non-karaoke burned subs for VCD/DVD/SVCD by the way of vobsub plugin in avisynth. So your program is very interesting!
P.S.: in your original intention you want to create karaoke subs only for playback of .avi file(thus only on PC). What about when you want to presend your karaoke (avi)CD on a birthday's party and must bring also the complete computer system? Or the foreign computer dose not have the proper fonts and displayed the subs very ugly? Or even all friends sing and dance around the computer monitor?

[ukendt]

I personally encouraged Xombie and allowed this thread.
I also recieved complains about the form of some argumentations.
Please, keep the discussion in sober mode (polite) and let's give Xombie a chance to show what his proggie is able to do.
All projects started somewhere, being buggy and almost unusable at the beginning, almost all progs need adjustments.
I think this guy's idea is very interesting. Let's see what this project turns out to be. Sure, someone will be able to use it !

[Schultz]

Originally posted by htc10825


Another question: when we rip only some chapters from a music DVD with Smartripper/DVDDecrypter, the resault a big vob file. But when we use your vobsub to indexing the subtitles of the VOB, it produces the index file with the timing for whole DVD, but contents for the ripped VOB file! So in the VOB(also the video processing of avisynth) the chpt. 7 follows chpt. 1, but you'll not see the subs in chpt 7 because the vobsub plugin for avisynth are waiting for the timing of chpt. 7 in the whole DVD(after 20min). How can I overcome this issue?
Rip every chapter separate and join them together with diff. starting time are surely a bad approach.


I belive what you can do with this.. Is when you are ripping the music dvd with SmartRipper Look at what VobId/CellID that you start ripping at.. And then when you load up Vobsub on the bottom two Listboxes Remove everything that starts before this VobID/CellID from the Right side.. That will have vobsub start its timing from what you only ripped to your harddrive.. I have to do this Alot with animes that i encode.

[htc10825]

@Schulz
thx, I'll try it later

@ukendt
You have not readed all my posts in the thread. I've highly appreciated the works of Xombie before. I've only the opinion that his program could be more interesting for creation of karaoke VCD/SVCD/DVD rather than just for playback of avis. But this is actually a matter of personal taste. Someone would like to dance with the computer monitor, but I prefer a girl. It would be greater when we could at last download his program other than just screenshots.

[ukendt]

U apparentely feel my post was directed to U (otherwise I wouldn't expect any reaction).
Let's say it this way : U made ur point :D (now....stop writing !:D )

[htc10825]

Let's say it this way: U made ur point(now....stop writing!)That meens: you've made a wrong point?!?