how to create the smallest subtitle

[shpanks]

i was wondering what would be the easiest way to make the smallest set of subtitles. I recently ripped cheech and chong with all the languages in 1 sub file (.sub.idx.ifo). The sub file is 40mb i think it was 20mb when i compressed into .rar. is their any other format which makes them smaller ; it just doens't seem right for them to b so huge, the dvd ifo's are tiny :confused:

thanx shpanks

[ppera2]

Use text (ASCII) based subtitles. Get it with Subrip from DVD....
Typical length is about 60KB in Micro DVD format. And you can choose size, style, color, position by playback.

[Beave]

Choose less in Streams in VobSub. My .sub files usually compress about 25% or less of the original size. I never had more than 8 mb rar files i think.
Have you tried upping the quality of compression in WinRAR?

[shpanks]

yea i always do max compression; what kinda of ascii subtitles are around ppera i don't want to use microdvd cos u can't use it in wmp and thats what i use (i want it to b as compatible as possible)?

thanx 4 the replies

[Boulder]

SubRip? You can use SubResync from the VobSub package to edit the format and its ASCII. I don't know about any WMP compatibility, I use ffdshow's subtitler for displaying.

[Beave]

If i have text-subs i usually name them "moviename.languagename.sub" and they are displayed with VobSub just like the ImageSubs.

[shpanks]

hey what exactly is the difference between image subs and text subs i'm guessing image are the bigger 1's created by vobsub and text are the 1's made by subrip and u can open them and there's text instead of like code like the 1's made by vobsub? I've noticed that when ripping wtih subrip u can make subtitle files that are like 56k instead of 2mb per stream. Which subtitle format outputs the smallest file i've found that .sub format gives the smallest between the three that i tested vobsub .sub subrip sub and .ssa

thanx shpanks

[ppera2]

As I said MicroDVD format is most compact - try different output formats from Subrip and you will see. Other good side of MDVD format is that it fits for movie playback at 24 and 25 fps too (because it's frame based).

Image subs contain bitmap image of text - good side is that it can be any text, chinese etc. But it takes lot of space, on DVD average per language is 5-10 MB.

Text based subs contain ASCII codes of test, what means 1 letter-1 byte plus timing informations for each line. Much shorter, more flexible.

[shpanks]

so basically what i said is true; does dvobsub actually use image subs. The only reason i don't use MicroDVD is i'd like to include everything u need to play the file withon the cd so the extra stuff tends to b like 1mb total wheris if included microdvd it probably b bigger and u can only play the shit in microdvd. Only prob i have with using subrip is that when it recognizes letters sometimes it recognizes part of characters for instance it might recognize the . in ; is there anyway to overcome such things; is a character matrix file a set of prerecognized characters to use with movies?

[Beave]

The biggest downside about textsubs is the anormous amount of time to rip an almost perfect subtitle stream. It takes ages to correct all the mistakes.
For me VObSub is perfect, it always looks great, no mistakes and no effort to make them. That's definatly worth 5 to 10 MB on a 800mb CD.

Sometimes i download some text-subs, if they are not on the DVD and rename them, so that VobSub can play them. Vobsub can playback MicroDVD subs and many others.

I wouldn't recommend textsubs, unless you have lots of free time and don't know what else to do with it. 5MB Subs compared to 695mb movie is peanuts IMO.

[[Toff]]

Originally posted by ppera2
Other good side of MDVD format is that it fits for movie playback at 24 and 25 fps too (because it's frame based).

Not right, you must be talking about the subrip format.
Frame based format are dependant of the movie fps.
So if you take a MicroDVD subtitle file made @25 fps you can't use it with a movie @23.976 without doing a conversion.

[The Edge]

Hi,
To all Vobsub users.
When compressing the .sub file with WinRaR, goto compression options and set the "Text compression" to force and "Audio" & "True Colour" compression to disabled. I notice file sizes are usually 3/4 of what that are with the default compression;)

Edge

[gabest]

Wow, and it's really true.

[shpanks]

where is this compression options u speak of i can't find the tab or the options for that matter? i'm using winrar 3

[gabest]

advanced/compression

[shpanks]

the difference is subtle but still good
VTS_04_0.rar 715kb vs VTS_04_0.rar 992kb

[The Edge]

Originally posted by shpanks
the difference is subtle but still good
VTS_04_0.rar 715kb vs VTS_04_0.rar 992kb

I believe the difference is good.
If you play around with the "Prediction order" and "Memory" options in advanced, u can gain the extra few Kbs.
I know were talking about Kbs here but i like to have them as small as possible.:rolleyes:

Edge

[ppera2]

Deer God! So many inaccuracy in few reply....

shpanks: MicroDVD format is supported by all major players except WMP. But you can use VobSub or DivXG400 and it will work. No need for any extra on CD, just must install and set in your OS (Win) once.

Beave: Time for making errorless subrip depends mostly from quality of letters used on substreams on DVD's. Fact is that I made 80-90% of my subrips in 10-15 minutes.
I dont like VOBSubs, because most of fonts on DVD's is ugly for me.
Other thing is: I can find over 1000 subtitle in my language on WEB, so in many cases I need only to download 20-50 KB file and maybe syncronize.

[Toff] You are totally wrong. When sub is framebased it will play correct regardless of playback speed. Timebased like subrip format can't it - we all know that PAL plays 4% faster than FILM.

[[Toff]]

Originally posted by ppera2
[Toff] You are totally wrong. When sub is framebased it will play correct regardless of playback speed. Timebased like subrip format can't it - we all know that PAL plays 4% faster than FILM.

hum,
Let's say you rip a PAL DVD @ 25 FPS.
The 1st subtitle start at 10 seconds during 2 second.
So in MDVDP format you will have :
{250}{300}The first subtitle...

Now take the same film but in NTSC @ 23.976 with the above subtitle.
The frame 250 is now at 10.421 seconds.

[gabest]

PAL is 25/24 times faster than FILM, and 25/23.976 times faster than NTSC.
10 * 25/24 = 10.416
10 * 25/23.976 = 10.427

[ppera2]

Exact values are irrelevant. MicroDVD subtitle shows not by time, but by framenumber.
It is correct that it will show later by NTSC - that's what I'm talking already...
I wonder why Gabest says nothing about it.

[[Toff]]

It is correct that it will show later by NTSC
Yes there are not synchronized anymore, and the delay will be even more important at the end of the movie.
It's why i say that MDVDP format is dependant of the frame rate.
If it's not the case I really can't think why there are some tools to convert MDVDP subtitle from different frame rate.

Have you already use a subtitle in MDVDP format from a Region 1 dvd rip with a region 2 dvd rip video ?
You should understand what I'm talking about.

[gabest]

A dshow player calculates with time not with frame numbers, that why it has to convert mdvd subititles to be time based. For the conversion the movie's fps is used (if there is nothing else to use).

Now back to our example: {250}{300}The first subtitle...

In the case of an ntsc movie (23.976fps):
{250} becomes 10.4271 sec.

And in the case of a pal movie (25fps):
{250} becomes 10 sec.

But because ntsc plays _slower_ than pal the same line will also came later in the movie, exactly at 10.4271 sec.

However, when the framerate gets manipulated with dirty tricks :) to interlace it for 30fps, the calculation will be messed up and the ntsc subtitle will show at 8.333 sec.

[ppera2]

Pointless discussion... I have lot of subtitles and movies and I know what I'm talking about. How players work is not relevant for this discussion. In any case it will show title line at given frame number. Whole case doesn't worth so long discussion, it is quite simple.

Gabest: I installed latest VobSub, and I like it and new features, especially Textsub plugin. However I don't see any instructions how to use it in AVISynth. I renamed it to dll and AVISynth loaded it, but how set it up? I don't see any shortcut for setup...

[gabest]

Use the ssa format or resave it with subresync after some modification to create a *.style file.

[[Toff]]

In any case it will show title line at given frame number.
Yes I completely agree here.

It's just that when you change your movie frame rate during conversion you also need to change your subtitle.
It's not the case with a timebased format.

I think we are not talking about the same thing when we said a movie @25fps or a movie @24fps.

For the conversion the movie's fps is used (if there is nothing else to use)
Yes so your encoded video file must have the same framerate as the original.

[ppera2]

Originally posted by [Toff]

It's just that when you change your movie frame rate during conversion you also need to change your subtitle.
It's not the case with a timebased format.



I usually not change framerate - why do it ? I can leave with 24 and 25 fps. IVTC is not real framerate change.
When change framerate via changing fps flag in AVI you need not just to change subtitle speed (framerate conv. in Subadjust), but neeed also to change audio speed.

[shpanks]

what is divx g400 is their any other subtitle format that is supported by wmp without external software i'm aware of 1 but you have to bring up a caption window to use it ( i can't remember what it's called).

[ppera2]

Originally posted by shpanks
what is divx g400 is their any other subtitle format that is supported by wmp without external software i'm aware of 1 but you have to bring up a caption window to use it ( i can't remember what it's called).

It is plugin for WMP with subtitle support without caption window, and some other things. However new VobSub has better subtitle solution, as I see.

[shpanks]

dw dudes i finally solved my problem instead of using ascii subs or even image subs i've decided to use the multiplexing feature of ogm and implement my subs in the ogm streams this way it takes no extra space and i can switch them on and off!!!!

thanx guys neway u guys rock what would i do without u!1

o 1 more thing b4 i leave i use compact disc autorun v2.1 and i was wondering is there any command u can add on to the .ogm to make it use subs automatically cos i wanna have a button 4 playing with subs and 1 4 just raw jap.

thanx again

shpanks:D

[ppera2]

Originally posted by shpanks
dw dudes i finally solved my problem instead of using ascii subs or even image subs i've decided to use the multiplexing feature of ogm and implement my subs in the ogm streams this way it takes no extra space and i can switch them on and off!!!!
shpanks:D

Ah! You discovered America... And it takes extra space of course, but not extra file! :-)

[shpanks]

what u mean idiscovered america; yea i figured it'd still prob take same space solution for the compact disc autorun program. Is it possible to do this kind of thing with graphedit because i know it can be done if u use softsubs cos i downloaded akira se with softsubs and it had these special akira.sub.avi's which autoloaded the subs and if u just did akira.avi it would just do minus the subs

since i haven't tested my .ogm's on a pc without software will i need dvobsub on the pc i wish to test it on cos i thought compiling the .ogm with the sub would eliminate that requirement.

[Schultz]

You either need DVobSub or SubTitDS from Tobais. Because what you did is muxed the subs into a seperate stream in teh Ogm file.. so now you have

1 Video Stream
1 Audio Stream
1 Subtitle Stream
in the Ogm file so you still need to install something that can support reading and displaying the subtitles in the OGM file.. Ala Dvobsub or SubTitDs.

[shpanks]

yea thought so :(

can nebody tell me what i'm missing here i'm trying to make an avi file that will play subs automatically. For instance i will have the raw blahblah.ogm which will have jap audio and standard picture then i will have blahblah.avi which will load the same thing just with subs automatically applied.

http://www.geocities.com/cyanidespillromania/pic.htm

soz about the link i couldnt derictly link to it, i tried and it said page could not b displayed :s

[Schultz]

Hum why don't you leave the subs in the Ogm file and if someone don't want the subs they can just turn them off when it starts. This way you don't have to deal with creating a graphedit file and using that.

[shpanks]

cos i've got a menu going 4 it and i'd like u 2 have more options in the menu sides some ppl aren't very knowledgable about such things...

I know it can b done so yea... some1 must know how to do it

[anGGa]

Originally posted by [Toff]
Not right, you must be talking about the subrip format.
Frame based format are dependant of the movie fps.
So if you take a MicroDVD subtitle file made @25 fps you can't use it with a movie @23.976 without doing a conversion.

So your saying I can play a movie @23.976 fps with 25fps subs and just the subs just be sync ?