Anyone wondering if its worth it anymore?

[Commander XJL]

I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it to copy DVD's. With DVD prices dropping even for big titles (Blade 2 is 18 dollars at Best Buy)I'm starting to think I'm not saving much. I just did Blade 2, spent 5 dollars for a DVDR, re encoded the movie for a quality loss, printed a full label (50 cents for photo paper and 25 cents for ink) used a real DVD case (another 50 cents) and payed 3 dollars for the rental. So I spent 9 bucks and saved 9, but I put in a bunch of time, lost quality, lost disk 2 completely unless I want to spend another 5 bucks and more time, and I don't have the nice printed DVD, unless I want to spend more time on printing one to stick on so it can peel off someday. So anyone have an opinion on this? I'm not trying to be negetive, I'm really starting to wonder if we should just buy DVD's instead of copy, I'm starting to think we're losing as much or more than we're gaining when you weigh it all out. I already buy any DVD that is 12 bucks or under instead of copy, and I'm starting to wonder if I should just be more selective and buy them all and never copy. On the other hand I have saved a lot of money copying, usually I just put my DVD's in a jewel case, and spend 1 -3 dollars for rentals, 5 bucks for the DVDR (less sometimes) so I average about 7 bucks a copied DVD, definitely a savings, but what I said at first is true too. I hate making these choices. Don't know where I should have posted this but I think its a reasonable question

[Arky]

I've argued this point for quite some time, but did not wish to alienate myself from the ardent rippers amongst our Doom9 community members!

I think it's worthwhile as a learning process, and as a means of backing up titles which have been deleted, but not as a means of saving a few pounds/dollars/euros etc. After all, one could probably earn the cost of a retail DVD in the time it takes to RIP, Re-encode, and write, a DVD-R copy. Just my *2 cents* lol.


Arky ;o)

[colebert]

If you're efficient and don't buy diamond studded media, you'll save lots of money. I also don't care about the cases, I just make color labels and put them in a book.

Watch Coyote Ugly and you'll understand why backing up is a good thing. Paramount sticks 5 minutes of previews in their titles and there aint shit you can do but grin and bear it cos of the PUOPs.

FYI: Efficient means Netflix and CCE. Not blockbuster and REMPEG.

-Cole

[Crazyjoe]

I must say, that I've never used my knowledge about preparing video and audio sources and authoring a DVD for ripping purpose. Every DVD in my collection I've bought.

I use Scenarist & Co only for personal collections of trailer, music videos etc. which I ripp from my own DVDs. So I can improve my knowledge about DVD authoring for later use in business, because I tend to do that kind of stuff later when I've finished my study. :)

[cinephile]

I have to agree with colebert and say I have saved lots of money. I buy good quality DVD-R (but not the most expensive), rarely rent from Blockbuster (too expensive) but instead from other rental outlets *and* friends.
I agree that you could earn the cost of the DVD in the time it takes to create a DVD-R but I am not working ALL the time and therefore I consider it my hobby (and a challenge) for which I don't expect to be paid.

What gets me is that the public get screwed by the big movie companies not only on price, but also on "bigger and better" versions of DVDs superseding the one they/I just bought (LOTR for example).

90% of the time the extras are not worth bothering about. Ok you watch them once and think, hey, so that's how they did it. But after this, I never replay them. Adding crappy extras and increasing the price for the "SE 2 disc set/collector's etc" is a scam, IMHO.

So, I will continue my hobby until prices drop to a realistic level (hmm, gonna be waiting a while then...).

[auenf]

interesting opinions here, (im not a ripper, im purely an authorer, dont take what i say to heart...) altho currently there is still some money to be save on copying DVD Movies, and whether it is worth your time and hassles (gotta love the major's using lots of tricks in their dvds), most of the ripping that people have been doing (rempeg+ifoedit) doesnt actually teach you how to properly author discs, just hack them to get the working again.

but of course, whatever takes your fancy, ill just keep authoring titles in bulk for work in DVDVirtuoso and playing around with the extra stuff in DVDMaestro when im not so tired after swapping DLT's around all day.

Enf...

[armyb77]

I've never used the knowledge i've learned here as a way to save money. I find that it's a hobby that has it's benefits. If you would have rented the movie anyway then you can coun't the 3-4 dollars for the rental. I find my total cost to make a movie is around 3.50 plus rental. That includes:DVD-R, HIGH GLOSS CD LABEL, DVD CASE, AND DVD JACKET. But if your just in this to save money, and you get no fun in learning new ways of doing things, then you should stop doing it all together.

Well that's just my opinion

Armyb77:D

[Commander XJL]

What I've been doing is movies I really really care about I buy, I rent from Netflix to get titles I can't get at the video store, I rent 1 dollar rentals at a video store in town (1 dollar for titles that have been out a while not new releases) if I can't wait I rent new releases but rarely, I don't care about extras or menus either (I'll keep menus if there really cool) I put most movies in jewel cases, but if I can download high quality covers from the internet sometimes I print full labels and use real DVD cases (they take up twice the room to store than a jewel case another thing to consider). But I am definitly saving money. Plus it is a hobby I enjoy. I guess I'm just saying if I was rich I would buy every movie I want and not copy anything, but I'm far from rich. Also, there is something to be said about putting a DVD in your player and have the movie start right up, no menus or previews or delays, and you only get this from ripping and copying. Now I think I'll go rent Apocalypse Now for a dollar and copy it

[mpucoder]

@auenf: maybe the users don't learn much, but Derrow and I sure do :)

[cinephile]

Too right....because if you had bought Apocalypse Now, how would you have felt when they released Apocalypse Now Redux Even More Special Extended Edition Superbit DTS version, a few months later. :D
THAT'S why I do it (well partly anyway - money and fun also have something to do with it).

cine.

[biscuit]

There is something about his (commanders) post that doesnt make any sense to me at all, and I hope someone can shed some light on why you want to do this-

You say you spend 5$ on a DVDR, and then re-encode (which takes 10-15 hours) to get the movie on 1 disc ? ??? WHY BOTHER? Why not buy two cheap discs( 1$ each ), and split the movie, and not lose ANY quality, and save yourself a hell of a lot of time. I have been using this method, and If i feel like it, i do 3-4 movies in 1 day, which includes rip, processing and burn. Never had any problems.

I have been doing the split method with great success, and to be honest with you, i have been using VERY cheap media and had absolutely no problems with it. I dont think people realize, or are wiling to admit, that the cheapo discs can actually do the exact same thing that the 5 dollar discs can do. I buy it from a guy on ebay, and ALL of the movies I have burned work great from start to finish, i even took them to best buy and tried them out on the players, and they work on 75-80% of the players. The easy way to fix that problem is - uhhh - just buy a player that plays your discs.

:)

any comments on this? why go through the trouble, time, and effort to get it all on one disc, when its a HELL of a lot easier to split, and gives same quality as original- just my 2 cents

[Commander XJL]

If you think cheap disks are the way to go then do a search on it and you'll see that tons of people have had nothing but trouble with cheap disks of all different brands, myself included, which is why I and so many others buy good quality media now. Also the idea of having a movie on 2 seperate disks does not sound too good to most people, which is why so few people do it it that way. If you do just the movie most movies will fit with no re encoding, and if you do need to re encode the quality loss is so slight I'd rather have that than having to watch a movie on two seperate disks, that sounds like the laser disk days 20 years ago when a movie was interupted while you flip a disk over

[colebert]

the silent majority has no problem with dollar discs. its the whiners with shitty players that make everyone think you're some kind of sage if you shell out five bucks a piece for media.

I've never had a coaster attributable to anything but my own incompetence and I buy 90 cent media.

-Cole

[wakebrder]

Let's not let this turn into another "media" thread. :eek:

To be doing this to save money is somewhat ludicris. After doing DVD ripping, authoring, & burning for about a year now, I can honestly say that I can NOW consider myself actually saving some money. The dumbass mistakes and bad media choices are still there, but they are alot fewer and far between.:D
Take into consideration all of the coasters you've made, all the the time you've spent, and all the frustration you've encountered. Is it WORTH it? HELL NO!! But, it sure is a hell of a lot of fun!! And I thought that was the point of having a hobby.
Also just wanted to give a big thanks to Doom9 and everyone on this board for basically teaching me everything I know. Without this forum I'd probably still be struggling with VCDs (remember those?)

Just my $.02

[biscuit]

ok, yes - i definatly agree with wakeboarder - a big part of the reason to do it is because its fun. Remember the thrill you had when you first got it right? and you made your first DVD? If doing this was a nightmare i wouldnt bother.

I suppose it depends on what is more important to you, time, money, or not changing a disc halfway into your movie. To me, time and money are a LOT more important, thats why i took the cheap/quick route (as opposed to the expensive/long route). Since i havent had any problems yet with the cheap media ( i pay 1 dollar per disc), then i dont think its necessary to be paying 5 bucks a movie. If your gonna pay that much, just buy the damn DVD and save yourself the 18 hours of encoding!

One other item to mention - at what point does it become worth it? Have you watched all the movies that you have burned? Is the collector in you, or the just the fun of the hobby that motivates you?

[Commander XJL]

I didn't know that Sony, Pioneer, or Toshiba were shitty players, I thought sound dropping in and out, picture freezing, and pixalation was because of a bad disk, strange how when you burn the same projects onto quality media they play fine. If I could find some 1 dollar disks that played right I'd buy them, but like so many others I'm shell shocked from all the trouble with generic media. Keep in mind the other thing that has happened to me and others with generic media, if you actually burn one that will play ok all the way through, 2 months to a year later they no longer play at all, don't know why this happens with generic media and not name brand, but it happened to me and others on this and other forums. Hope your movies all play a year from now, I know mine will, some are over a year old already. But your right, lets not turn this into a shitty media thread were people don't realize you get what you pay for :)

[biscuit]

commander mentioned that a lot of his older discs mysteriously went bad, after several months/years.

This is a VERY serious concern to me. I have read all the posts on media, and to be honest- there does notseem to be a cut and dry perfect method that works ALL the time, for everyone. Its alot like cooking i guess, everyone has their own reciepe, and thinks their dish should taste a certain way.

But still, back to my other point. Why would discs go bad? This is extremly scary, i dont want to build a nice collection, then find out that it is totally worthless 2 years from now. I have read, and confirmed that putting labels on discs causes them to skip, stutter, or pixelate (due to spin imbalance, or laser bounce). If a disc is carefully stored,at room temperature in a cd jewel case, and not scratched, ... shouldnt it last the rest of your life? I mean, these things arent cassette tapes!

More input from others please-
Has anyone had their discs go bad? Please give details on how you store your discs-

Thanks everyone, and thanks to DOOM9 for running an awesome site! keep it up guys

[Commander XJL]

I've had this happen, others on this forum and other forums (VCD help), one guy said he read on the internet that with generic media, keep in mind these places don't plan on being around forever, they use cheap dye that can fade very quickly and your laser will no longer be able to read the disk. I had this happen with 2 kinds of generics, they played perfect and a few months later were totally shot. It's real simple, Sony, TDK, Maxell, Pioneer, they plan on staying in business forever and they realize they better sell media that will work and last, the generic people don't care cause they never stay in business long anyway. 2 years from now I want to be watching my DVD's, not sweeping up a pile of purple dust where I use to keep my DVD collection. Always remember if a disk is 1 dollar there is a reason, you get what you pay for. Hope I didn't give you a reason to have nightmares :) You can buy quality media now for 4 dollars a disk, for gods sake spend the extra money and just copy a few less DVD's. At least you'll be able to sleep at night. I would hate to see someone spend all this time making movies and then lose it all someday. Buy good media!!!!

[biscuit]

i thought you that you said a while back that your discs went bad because you put paper adhesive labels on them?

and how can the dye fade? especially if it is never exposed to light, or sunlight, except when you take it out of the case?

Commander, and others, please elaborate on how your discs have gone bad, and why you think this is so. I also want to hear from a person or two that has been using cheap discs, and had success- (or failures)

thanks everyoen for your input

[wakebrder]

On the media point,:rolleyes: I think if you use quality discs, you will have success 99% of the time. If you use cheap shit, you're taking a risk. It's just like everything else. If you can buy 3 cases of Blatz for the price of one case of Michelob, whadda are ya gonna do? Well that's each individal's preference. Do you want 3 shitty drunks or one good one? Cheap media IS a gamble. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. I just got the "sampler pack" from meritline and haven't had a failure so far. Even on the $.89 DVDPro (GradeA)ADVDINFO=PRINCO. I check a few discs for compatabilty, they seem ok, so I order 100 and get screwed. (this was before ADVDINFO, so I probably got different discs) Sorry for the rant.

I am a collector of movies. I also enjoy ripping/burning DVDs. It's also cool when chicks come over and say "wow, you have a lot of cds" and I reply, "No, those are DVDs".:sly: So, I say if you can save a buck, go for it. It is a great feeling when you burn a perfect movie onto a $.89 disc.:eek: It DOES happen. Do you feel lucky?

BTW, Are you guys encoding with P2s or what? 18 Hours? CCE will encode slightly better than realtime on my P4 1.7. With CBR that is. Just curious.

[Commander XJL]

Thats right, you are taking a HUGE gamble with generics. In my case the DVD's that came out played fine at first. They were then stored in jewel cases on a shelf in my tv room in the rec room of my basement with no sunlight anywhere. A DVD couldn't have got better treatment. As far as why they went bad months after being burned I'm not sure, but something happened during that time that has never happened with quality media. After so many people on this forum have posted the nightmare trouble they've had with generics, I can't believe anyone would take the chance when it's so important. Even if they play ok, then you have to worry about will they play in 6 months or 2 years. I would absolutely love to get DVD's for 2 dollars a piece, but there is no way in hell I'm taking the risk, I have heard so many peoples nightmares with generics I'm through with them. You've been warned. Did I fire 6 shots or only five? Well in all this confusion I seem to have forgotten myself. But seeing how this is a 44 magnum the most powerful handgun in the world and could blow your head CLEAN off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky. Well do you punk? Your taking the same deadly risk with generic shit media :(

[biscuit]

commander, your advice has been heard, and i will definately take that into consideration- however this is only 1 persons case. Also you did not answer my question about the reason they went bad. Did they go bad because of the paper labels? Also, did you test them on other players? There are LOTS of factors in the DVDr equation, thus making it difficult to pin down and isolate the problem.

I would like to hear from some others about this. Have you had the same problems? Have you been using cheap, or brand name?

[Commander XJL]

No paper labels, would not play on 3 different standalones or my computer. i don't know why generics go bad, evil curses, whatever, all I care about is I can't keep track of all the people having nightmare trouble with generics. It's real un difficult to isolate the problem. Project burns and plays like shit on generic, burns and plays perfect on name brand. Disk quites playing or will barely play months later on generics, disks play since the day they were made with name brand. Do a search on this forum about generic media and you'll find out how realiable they. Like I said, I would love to spend 1 dollar for a DVDR. The problem is I and so many others have got burned doing it. If I heard about a generic that a lot of people were having good luck with I would probably try again, cause I would love to save money, only problem is you can have saving money come back and bite your penis off, and I don't want my penis bitten off, I may need it. But keep in mind, if your using generics that play all the way to the end with no pixalation, no sound dropping out, or no picture freezing (these are the classic signs of bad media) then thats great, and your generics may last a hundred years, the problem is there is no way to know. Generic media going bad after they are burned may be rare, I just don't know. How a DVDR can somehow physically change over time and no longer play has me stumped, but it starting to happen to people, I do know that. What brand are you using and what burner do you use?

[biscuit]

yes i should have mentioned the specifics-

I order from an ebay user known as "DVDrecorders". They are generic no name brand discs. Purple on the top, and a dark reddish purple on the bottom. The top says DVD-R and on the side it says "for video and data" - Does anyone else order from this? Not sure if im allowed to mention people or vendors, oh well i just did-

I am using a Pioneer A04. I havent made a single coaster yet, that wasnt due to my own screwup (which was 2-3 when i was trying some different things with menus).

So far absolutely no problems at all with these dics, but after listening to commander i am mortified that in a year, these will be worthless. I still dont see how a DVD disc can physically change, or deteriorate? maybe what happened to yours was they warped due to heat or something? i have no idea-

any insight or info on this would be greatly appreciate from anyone-

[padre]

biscuit,

I think Commander's issues may be unique, but who knows. I've been burning DVD-R's for close to 9 months. ALL of which are on 'generic' media. Most of them are PrimeDisc, some are Judysdeals. I've played, and have had others play, discs from as far back as they go in my library, and they all work fine. (And most have labels - a very thin one, but a label just the same).

I'm not sure the issue of 'dye' fade is real, or restricted to 'generic' DVD-R media only. Until we get something definitive, you do what you think is best for you. For me, I'm not shelling out the money for the big brand names, just to get some sort of comfort from buying from vendor X. Just look at the people complaining about Memorex and some TDK's.

I think one of the reasons we see 'a ton of people' complaining about their bad luck with generic media is simple; boards like this are designed to help people with 'problems'. Most successful burners aren't going to post their results, mostly complaints.

As far as it being worth it, hell yes!! It's worth it. I've burned tons of discs (over 400 and counting), and can't even begin to calculate the savings. Plus I get to transfer my existing library of 'out of print' VHS tapes to DVD.

[Commander XJL]

ya I've heard Judysdeals were good, and primedisk, and I'm thinking that disks going bad over time is rare, but I would still like to know the reason, it happened with media from cdrecordable.com, a lot of people on this forum complained about their media. But it wasn't from heat or anything, they just went bad over a 2-4 month period, but it is happening to people, just wish I knew with what other media

[Fredrick]

DVD's from friends or library free. Primedisc with DVD case $1.50.
Computer time to finish DVD 11/2 hours no downsizing and 5 hours to down size. My time is probably 5 to ten minutes punching the keyboard. Total cost is not much more than 1.50 if you include cost of equipment(the more DVD's ripped the cost becomes cheaper). This is only a hobby. Right? Primedisc has worked on 12 different DVD players I tested with no problems. Speaking of regular brands, TKD farms out to different manufacturers and depending on who makes them they can be bad. Others probably do the same.

[Commander XJL]

What do Primedisks look like on top and where do you get them?

[padre]

PrimeDiscs seem to come in two different flavors.

The 'bulk paq': You know, when you buy 50 or 100 in a spindle. They are the best for me and the cheapest ($1.29 per disc w/free shipping). The are silver on the top, with no markings (other than the serial number on the inner ring (kinda foggy clear plastic) starting with C1-xxxxxxx). They have a dark purple dye and ADVDInfo sees them as RITEK...G3.

The 'retail' version, where you buy them with slimline or regular jewel cases have the PrimeDisc logo etched or embossed on the top surface. They are lighter purple dye, have a clear inner ring. ADVDInfo sees them as AUVIST...AR.

I've had great sucess burning with either and they seem to play in every DVD player (that will accept DVD-Rs). I get mine at Shop4Tech.com.

That's part of the reason I hate when people make blanket statements like "all cheap media suck" or "if you use any other brand than TDK, Pioneer, Apple or Verbatum, you must have a death wish". Hmmm, let me see... Over 400 burned and no problems. If that's a death wish, I guess I'm dead hundreds of times over.

[mpucoder]

This is becoming another media discussion, and you know why we created a seperate forum for those? So, please, back to the subject guys.

One thing, though, on the dye. It's not so much a fading, as a blending. Recordable media does not burn pits as a stamped media would have, but rather causes the dye to recrystalyze so that its refraction index changes. That, in turn, causes the reading laser to not reflect back, and appears as a pit. The cheaper dyes do not maintain a crisp boundary, and over time the boundary gets even blurrier, until it is unreadable. I call it "self erasing". No exposure to light is needed, only heat. And not much of it. The only way to stop it is to reduce the temperature to near absolute zero, because it's caused by molecular activity.

[colebert]

If you want to get back to the main point, it is economical IF:

1) You don't rent a blockbuster (duh!).
2) Don't buy the most expensive media.
3) Dont have a job which your time is worth more than you save.

Now obviously you're going to have to address number two in dealing with the original topic, so if you can't talk about that here because there's another place to talk about it, it seems to me this topic was placed in the wrong forum.

It almost seems like Commander was just trying not to save money by going to blockbuster and using 5 dollar media. If you at least TRY to save money, you can (and lots).


-Cole

[padre]

Myself, I use Netflix. Since they have a return center about 1 day away from my house (mail-wise), I get a bunch of DVD's in a month.

Occasionally I'll use Blockbuster, if there's a recent release I really want now! A few months ago, they had a special on Lord of the Rings. Pre-buy the movie for $25, and you get 10 weeks of free rentals, 1 a week. That alone was worth $25. It was like getting the LOTR DVD free.

So, I figure with the number of DVDs I get per month from Netflix, the cost for the rental is just about $1.50. Add another $1.50 for the DVD-R, .25 for the label and yes, that makes it worthwhile. Even if the movie needs to be split across 2 DVD-Rs. The time? That's filler time for me; while I'm doing emails, writing documentation, putzing around the house. Doesn't require me to sit at the PC for long. For me, it's a sort of hobby. Can't associate a cost for your time when you're doing a hobby. Otherwise it's not a hobby.

[f@chance]

I live in the UK and for me burning DVD-Rs has a lot to do with US TV series' like Enterprise and 24. In a.b.startrek forum excellent SVCDs are posted of the Enterprise series. I can fit 6 Enterprise episodes on 1 DVD-R and watch the series before it is being aired in the UK. That for me is worth it.

I experiemented with different media but settled for 3rd Generation Data Safe and 2nd Generation FWS branded material for about $1.20 per disk. My success has been sofar excellent when I started to quit putting labels on the disks. I now stick a printed cover in the Albulm that holds 96 DVDs and the blank DVD behind it and that solved my pixelation problem. After all it is only the time from the sleeve to the player that you need to remember what the blank DVD has on it.

Don't have yet any experience with time causing loss of disks because I have done this only for a year.

Is it worth for DVDs. I came to the same realization no it is not. As an example I wanted to rip "A Knights Tale" than saw it advertized for $10 and bought it. The extras were worth it because one of the cut scenes was a second speech of introducing the knight that was absolutely hillarious.

If the content providers would get their act together and provide inexpensive content over the Net or through other retail channels I would limit my DVD burning to TV Episodes, Specials like the CBS 9/11 that was aired at the 6 month aniverary (it was a 4 Gig download) or other rare movies that are not easily available.

I also totally agree with the rip off with DVD sales. The upcoming 4 disk Lotr edition is the one to get up to this time. But we all know there will eventually be a full set with all the movies, outtakes deleted scenes and what have you. The same goes for the Starwars episodes, again there will be a directors cut and other special editions. I try to not be taken by these schemes too often.

A final note on the 24 series. It had a huge audience here in the UK. The BBC rebroadcast the episodes on Saturday to follow-up with the next new episode on Sunday. Media critics loved it and don't know what to do now on Sunday evening since the series has finished. The 4 DVD package went on sale the weekend after the series finished and has been out of stock in many retail stores. Now when series 2 starts it is worth to burn SVCD caps on DVD.

Of Soapbox

F@Chance

[brett]

Obviously, DVD ripping just isn't worth the time and effort unless you see it as an enjoyable hobby, but if I want to, I can certainly justify it from a money-saving standpoint.

$1.25 for a Ritek DVD-R (works in everything I have, and haven't seen anybody compmlaining about the quality), $0.25 for a DVD case, $1 for regular rental, $2 for new release.

So, it's $2.50 - $3.50 for your first DVD, and then $1.50 if your friend wants a copy -- which of course you will charge him $5 for :D

I don't really like sticking labels on DVD-R's, but making nice little jackets is another "hobby" of mine. You can print out a big cover on a regular piece of paper for that. I find it odd that regular DVD cases are as cheap or cheaper than jewel cases...

[brett]

Oh, and as far as the "worth it anymore" part of the thread, you must realize that it will only get more cost-effective as time goes on. Just look at how DivX has progressed. Remember how long it took to tweak NanDub? And look at CDR media. Remember just five years ago when a 2X burner was $500 and a blank CD was $7-15? These days a 40X burner is under $100 and the price of media is negligable -- and any moron can make a nice rip with GKnot in no time. I'm not saying that will happen anytime soon with DVD, but things will get easier and cheaper.

I bought my first burner in 1997 for $450 because Playstation games were $50 and blank CD's were $7. I bought my DVD burner for $260 because movies are $18-25 and blank DVD's are $1-2. I have no idea where you're getting $5 media at when you can get TDK 2X for $3.

[hoops10]

I've read all these posts and just had to add my 2 cents. First of all, I'm using the Ritek dvd-r's and they seem pretty good. They don't, however, like my Sony DVP-S300 stand-alone, and tend to pixelate/freeze up at the end of the discs. I play them on my Apex though, and they work wonderful.

As far as putting labels on the dvd-r's, I was under the impression that this was not good as it could, and usually does, cause pixelation and other problems. I do like the idea of printing dvd box covers and buying dvd jewel cases. Where do you get these dvd cases from and where do you get the dvd box covers that you can print from?

[f@chance]

They don't, however, like my Sony DVP-S300 stand-alone, and tend to pixelate/freeze up at the end of the discs.

This could be because of heat in the player. Next time this happens do this. Spray some eyeglass cleaner on the surface and wipe it. Than stick it back in and play the same section again and see it it pixelates. Worked for me.

F@Chance

[f@chance]

I am trying to buy inexpansive DVDs and am looking for a someone that ships preferable overseas.

F@Chance

[hoops10]

@ F@tchance

So what you are telling me I have to wipe the disc down everytime I want to watch it?

[Commander XJL]

You guys keep talking like if you can get generics to play your home free, you still have to worry about them going bad in a year like a lot of mine have, except it didn't take a year. Real focking nice, the work and time on doing movies and then having the disks fall apart in a few months, you cheap little boys and girls better think about it hard. These cheap disk must have a self destruct mode built in like the messages in Mission Impossible. Maybe so you have to buy more to replace them. You can get DVD covers from DVDEmpire or CDcovers.cc. Do a search with Google for DVD cases

[padre]

Commander, you keep trying to sell your horror story as "it's going to happen to everyone". I just picture this chicken running around screaming "the sky is falling, the sky is falling". I still haven't seen any evidence of this with ANY of my discs. Has anyone else?? Just because YOU experienced a problem doesn't mean EVERYONE will have the same problem. Shesh, give it a rest! (Sorry, Moderator, I was just really getting sick of his whining)

Hoops, I buy my DVD-R's as a combo pack, with DVD case. For example, Shop4tech sells a combo pack, 100 PrimeDiscs and cases as $1.24 for the disc and $.25 for the case (plus free shipping in the US). If you want just cases, they sell them for $29.00 for 100 plus free shipping. That's pretty damn cheap. I've seen similar deals at other vendors.

[colebert]

Out of curiosity, Commander, which media failed on you and how much did you pay for them?

-Cole

[biscuit]

Commander, please post more details about exactly what discs you used that went bad. Also, any chance you could post a picture of the box, and the DVDr ?

thanks! and same to everyone else, post picture of your dvds if you have

[Commander XJL]

Mine were from CDRecordable.com and the others were Optodisk. Don't remember their cost a couple of bucks each or a little less. Sorry padre, I guess I shouldn't have said anything about it or not answer peoples questions about it. Then everyone could just stay ignorant like you. I mean, this isn't anything important, most people want hundreds of hours and hundreds of dollars flushed down the toilet.
I got the idea this forum was to help people not lip off.

[padre]

Commander, I think you misunderstood - helpful feedback is good. Details about problems are good. Wild speculation on causes of problems is bad. Bitching and moaning...bad.

Generic media might not have been the cause of your problem. You might have had a specific issue with CDrecordable and Optodisc media, and I think that information HAS to be posted. By the way - have you EVER found someone else who had the exact same problem???????? (going bad after less than a year)

But to go on and on about how bad all generic media is, like it's the root cause of every problem anyone ever has is just silly. And by trying to scare people into not trying brands other than Apple, Pioneer and TDK is just idiotic.

And, no, I'm not ignorant - I'm just tired of hearing the same b.s. from the same poster. Big difference.

[Commander XJL]

Yes, like I said, I have heard of other people having this problem. I clearly said that before. Also, if someone asks me about this I'm gonna answer them. If ten people ask me about it I'm gonna answer them. If you don't like hearing about it then don't read it. And I never said all generic media is bad. I said your taking a chance with generic media, if you read the forum more closely you'll see that is undisputed. If you think people are being stupid to be concerned about this I find that unbelievable. I'm mad as hell I lost the disks that I did because of this, I can't imagine losing 50 or 100 or more. I just love these jerks that whine about how they don't want to hear about something, but then they not only keep reading about it but they start making posts about it themselves.

[biscuit]

look, quit the bitching. lets get back to the point at hand-

have your DVDs gone bad? I want to hear from other people, especially people that have used DVDs from Prestoshopper. Please see the attached picture for what they look like-

[padre]

biscuit, how do I see the attachment? I don't see any link or photo.

[biscuit]

yeh, my picture didnt seem to work. not sure why, as i am new to the forum. do i have to turn on this feature in my profile?

There is a distinct possibility, that I have no idea what im doing. ill try to repost it.

[dvdwizard]

I don't understand why people are re-encoding the DVD movies. You lose quality and the time it takes to re-encode. Why not just rip the movie with 6ch dolby digital sound. For all the newbies out there here is a proven process to follow:
1. Use DVD Decrypter to rip the video and audio. The settings need to allow for one file for video and one for audio. Also no info files.
2. Put the video and audio files in an authoring program, link to first play PGC, make chapter points where needed, and remove credits.
3. From authoring program produce VTS.
4. Burn the video VTS file to DVD.
5. Relax, you have just recreated a DVD with the same quality as the original. No re-encoding required.:cool:

[cinephile]

dvdwizard ... and when the video file is too big to fit on the disc??
then what? removing credits is not going to make a diff when the audio and video files add up to 7GB, for example, and you only have 4.7GB to play with.

Back to the point, can someone define generic media for me? Are we talking unbranded or what? I'm using Datasafe Gen 3 and DVD Master Gen 4 and I'm wondering if they are going to fail me in 12 mths or more.

[f@chance]

The 3rd generation disks are not long enough in existance to make a credible analyzis. I am using the same Datasave 3rd Gen disks and I am quite happy with them. 2 or 3 years from now we will no if it was junk or not. But than on the other hand by that time maybe the content providers have got their act together and are releasing disks that one would rather buy than dupe and I am sure that some of the disks that you have now on DVD-R will come back in some directors cut or special incarnation so that they can milk some more money out of an aged product. Maybe than it is the time to buy pressed DVDs.

F@Chance

[cinephile]

better cross my fingers then.... :mad:

[dvdwizard]

cinephile... You simply split the audio and video up and produce two DVD's. If you just want to produce one DVD then re-encoding is the only option, but time and quality will be lost.

[Taz69]

Wasn't this about 'Is it worth ripping DVDs ?' rather than a debate on media.

For me the answer has to be yes...

If I just want to rip a film I can do with the minimal abount of effort and have the full film for a couple of quid but I've found that I normally enjoy the challenge of attempting to re-create the whole of the disc whilst making improvements to the navigation.

I copied the Lord of the Rings movie disk and it took me hours but the enjoyment and satisfaction I got from doing it and producing a DVD-R which looks exactly like the original (complete with all those menus) leaves me with a disc I would not trade for the original DVD.(Well I would but I would copy it first :sly: )

As for the learning process I have followed tutorial here and and from other sites as well as spending hours just experimenting with Maestro to see how I can reproduce a certain effect within the menus of a specific film. I use CCE & Maestro and get excellent results without spending too long encoding.

Besides I think I do it because it is actually illegal and a way of saying up yours to the companies who keep ripping us off :devil: with yet another Special edition of an old film which should have been discounted by now.

As for media after testing several brands I'm settling on Traxdata media because it is cheap and works on every DVD player, consol & DVD rom that I've had chance to try it on...

Finally THANK YOU to Doom9 and everyone who has contributed to this site. Your hard work is appreciated...

[jesoonster]

commanderl xjl. I believe your story and waht happened to you. I'm wondering if you can show us a post or any comments on the web about another person experiencing the same problem as you did. It's not to verify that the information you provided to us is true or not. I want to read as many posts as possible to find out the root of the problem or to help me again even a slight understanding of what is happening. I'm sure you don't want the same thing happening to fellow doom9'ers as it happened to you....so can you please provide us some links of posts that were discussing problems similar to yours? Thank you.

[Commander XJL]

It would be pretty hard to find a specific post on this forum, especially after months, but there is a girl on this forum that said it happened to her too when this matter was brought up months ago. There were also people talking about it on VCD help forum. From what I've read nobody is sure why it happens, one guy on VCD help said he read it was because of inferior dye the crap media people use, plus maybe in addition the corners they cut on manufacturing and tolerences. People think generic media is cheap because the people that make it want to be nice and give you a break, and they don't care if they make money. But obviously it's because of the corners they cut using cheap components, cheap manufacturing processes, and tolerences that suck. Thats why when I've read literally dozens and dozens of posts over the last year or more where people are complaining about pixalation, picture freezing, sound going in and out, players locking up, DVD's not playing after the first 50 minutes, you always hear the words Princo, Mertline, CDRecordable.com, Optodisk, ect. But when people complain about these problems you never hear the words Pioneer, Sony, Imation, Apple, TDK, ect. Go figure

[jesoonster]

. But obviously it's because of the corners they cut using cheap components

I compeltely agree with your statement here. That was the first thing i noticed when i received princo disks. The "cuts" around teh dvd-r are bad... i noticed "grain like dust particle like things" that came off the disk when i rubbed the corners. If it gets on your dye then your player won't read....

doesn't happen with better media. I agree with you. Difference in the "finish" is worlds different between generic (princo) and the nongenerics.

, cheap manufacturing processes, and tolerences that suck.

I don't doubt that either.

Thats why when I've read literally dozens and dozens of posts over the last year or more where people are complaining about pixalation, picture freezing, sound going in and out, players locking up, DVD's not playing after the first 50 minutes, you always hear the words Princo, Mertline, CDRecordable.com, Optodisk, ect. But when people complain about these problems you never hear the words Pioneer, Sony, Imation, Apple, TDK, ect. Go figure

lol very true. I can't contest what you say here.

I'm just searching for a cheaper alternative that is reliable ^^; just live everyone else....

i'm probably going to use riteks to copy movies i won't have access to....

just out of curiosity what/where were the brands that people bought that had problems like you described?

cd recordable was yours. how about others?

[Commander XJL]

With me it happened with CDRecordable and Optodisk. Both these disks looked like they were manufactured in someones garage. It was months ago I was reading about this, don't remember the brands people were bitching about, I just remember it was generics. If people were smart they would just spend 3 or 4 bucks a disk and be able to sleep at night, plus realize that soon name brands will be 2 dollars then one dollar a disk. Of course, then the cheapskates will still buy generics cause they'll be 40 cents a disk, but thats their choice. But even if you spend 4 dollars a disk, your saving a ton of money instead of buying the real DVD's. But for some people how much they can save is never enough, so they take the risk of buying generics. I want to spend as little as possible too, but so far for me that has been a big mistake that cost me more in time and money than if I just spent my money on name brand media. I just don't have the guts to try generics again. But if I knew of some I could trust I would buy them, I just don't know which ones that is. With generics you often need some magical combination of burning software, burner, and standalone for them to play right, and I don't feel like searching for that combination any longer. If more people would quit buying these disks maybe they would make them better.

[jesoonster]

With generics you often need some magical combination of burning software, burner, and standalone for them to play right,

I have to admit that's very true. hehe. You do need a magical combination..........right drive settings, right program and right standalone for princos at least....

If more people would quit buying these disks maybe they would make them better.

........

i know you hate princo...just wanted to tell you. dvd-rw from princo...these are rebadged tdk's according to advdinfo. But again tons supposedly have problems with tdk's so i don't if these are any good...

PRINCO DVD-RW General 4.7GB
Pepek [QTCCDR.COM]
00 42 00 00 01 40 D6 FD 9E D8 20 00 02 0D 07 05 .B...@.... .....
88 76 09 00 03 54 44 4B 34 30 31 00 04 73 61 6B .V...TDK401..SAK
75 3D 33 00 05 0B AC 76 11 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 U=3....V........

[brutallo2002]

The main reason I rip and re-author is to get rid of the forced ads, warnings and logos that Hollywood/MPAA loves to shove down your throat. I also enjoy re-doing menus so that they play the way I think they should. For instance, a menu of trailers is usually made to play one trailer at a time with an automatic return to the menu after playing each 1 or 2 minute clip. I like setting it up so that each title on the menu will automatically go onto the next title, no matter which one you click on. :)

********************

About DVD-Rs fading and becoming unreadable: this happened to some double-sided CDRecordables that I purchased last spring, only it didn't take 2 months to go bad, it only took 2 weeks!

********************

Thanks to all here at doom9 for the knowledge!

[atreides93]

Commander, so you had bad luck with cdrecordable and optodisks. Well guess what, cdrecordable went out of business...they were crap...that doesn't mean all generics are crap too.
Obviously a lot of us are using generics and they work for the most part. Why dont' you try some Ritek's from www.rima.com
I've been using them and so far they've all worked flawlessly. i also fill the disk past 4 gigs, and my oritron player has no trouble playing them.

By the way, I don't lose any sleep if one of these disks goes bad...

[jesoonster]

About DVD-Rs fading and becoming unreadable: this happened to some double-sided CDRecordables that I purchased last spring, only it didn't take 2 months to go bad, it only took 2 weeks!


gulp. there we go another person ^^;;;; i guess it isn't just commander then.

Thanks to all here at doom9 for the knowledge!

Thank you i'm bailing out of princo now....




Commander, so you had bad luck with cdrecordable and optodisks. Well guess what, cdrecordable went out of business...they were crap...that doesn't mean all generics are crap too.

Yep that's true. I understand commander's circumstances though. I would be pissed as s--t if all he anime dvds i'm burnign go to dust...makes it 2X worse that I'm sending these burned discs overseas to a person who won't ever have access to those discs again..

Obviously a lot of us are using generics and they work for the most part.

Only thing that makes me worry is if those cheapa-- discs at cdrecordable were princos. the CHEAPEST disc out there is a princo (and i'm guessing cd recordable's cheapest were htose as well) so i'm avoiding those now...

Why dont' you try some Ritek's from www.rima.com

Hell im' switching over to riteks and primedisc 9.4s :D

[jesoonster]

OMG....i'm starting i left my princo dvd-rw and my sony dvd-rw on my desk for about 2 weeks now...

I see nothing on my sony, but i'm seeing changes in the dye in the princo dvd-rw!!!!!! There are these watermark things on there that are NOT on my sony (they were in the exact same conditions!)....

[Commander XJL]

What do the Riteks look like on top, and how dark purple is the dye? Also, are you verifying the disks are really ok by watching your movies from start to finish and looking for pixalation and crap?

[int_53185]

hi guys...just putting in my 2 cents...im with the buy cheap media...media that works....and split the movie if necessary...camp....ive bought cheap media....princo for one...never had any problems whatsoever...no pixilation...no problems at the end of the disc....ever....i did have one problem though....ive just started labelling my discs...am using white princos...and discovered that the label doesnt totally cover the white at the center of the disc...bummer...so i tried to make the label cover the entire disc...then trim it at the center....but dummy me...instead of using an exacto knife....i used my pinky! LMAO!! DONT TRY THIS WITH CHEAP MEDIA!!! lmao...the disc broke in half!...LOL...my only coaster with princo discs! LOL...ive tried ritek...love em....no need to cover the white portion at the center...never a coaster...less then a buck a piece...as for ur cheap media not playing after a while...i think thats baloney...unless u abuse them/leave them in a car or direct sunlight...thats my 2 cents...int

[atreides93]

Yea, basically I rent a movie, back it up to two ritek disks, then a few days later when I get time, I watch the entire movie....

the only generic's i've had trouble with were the 89 cent ones at meritline which aren't ritek by the way, and I had some pixellation issues with Primedisc double sided..but not a lot, just a little bit at one spot in particular. the rest of the movie plays fine.

So as long as I stick with Ritek's i'm happy

I haven't tried the Ritek's on my sony 530D....
hmm, maybe i'll try it tonight just for the heck of it!! see if they play better...see if my sony still skips after the 4gig mark

[jesoonster]

"I had some pixellation issues with Primedisc double sided..but not a lot, just a little bit at one spot in particular. the rest of the movie plays fine. "

uh..........that's bad news.

[jesoonster]

as for ur cheap media not playing after a while...i think thats baloney...unless u abuse them/leave them in a car or direct sunlight...thats my 2 cents...int

well ......i believe what happened to commander....

I'm seeing the dye color change on my princos already and NO i leave them next to my computer and away from light. It was turned upside down and i'm already seen changes in the dye and put it next to my sony dvd-rw (which is fine)....

[Sephan]

Im using cheap disks multiple brands, Labels.. Scan the original cd and use stomper etc.. I dont mess with muxing them down.. if they are too big split em to two discs.. if you dont like getting up to change the disk do like i did and buy a 5disk changer, just as easy to put two disks in there as one..

So i figure Netflix 30 bucks a month, I get 20 rentals in that month, probably use 30 DVD-R's alot of the movies will fit on one disc. labels, box of 100 triple capicity jewel cases, I have 3 bucks in a single DVD-R Movie, 4.50 for two dvd-r movie. Even old old movies still go for 9.99 at Kmart.

Thats excluding the hardware A04 etc.. and I have a second computer dedicated to it.. so time isnt an issue. I would say its worth for me.

I now this isnt a media thread but, im using cheap media from day one.. 3 different online stores, Standard grade, spindle bulk purple, jewel case optidisk all works.. I will have to see about this fading thing down the road. I think alot has to do with your player folks.. Im having great luck with my Sony DVD players.. got 4 of them even the 3 year old plays them ok, but not nearly as well as a 200 NS700P i just bought recently.

[ima2hd]

Commander: I was reading your comments you made & that is exactly why I have not made the jump into DVD recording yet. To much in flux right now and the prices for media are expensive at least on quality media.( Basically you can almost buy the new dvd for the price and hassle of recording it) I'm new to all this, but I have been back and forth about buying a DVD recorder for my PC. I have just started making svcd's I must admit the quality is very close to the DVD. Yes I know no 5.1 sound and you have to put a movie on mutiple discs; but hey dvd/svcd changers are dirt cheap. The quality played back on my 31" Panasanic Super Flat, well it is darn hard to tell the difference. CDR's are so cheap. Honestly I thought the price of DVD recording media as well as DVD recording devices would of dropped faster than they have. I guess there are to many formats out there right now. Just giving my 2 cents here and all of that said I plain on buying a DVD recorder hopefully by 2004 or so. Cheers, Will

[DarkMatter]

He's joking isn't he?....................isn't he? Let's see, .99 for the rental, $1.39 for the disc and case or $2.21 for 2 discs and 1 case, <.10 for the case label, 15-20 mins. of time actually in front of the computer. That's less than 4 bucks (if you are generous with the cost of electricity) and 20 minutes of my time vs. $14-$30 for the commercial copy. Yeah, he's definitely joking.

Ima2hd, you my friend, need to think long term. It's damn difficult to find a changer that actually plays SVCD's today. So, think about how hard it's going to be to find one 5-10 years from now when your current one dies and no one puts video on CD's anymore (think about it, most new PC's don't come with a floppy drive)? I was in the same dilemma about CD vs.DVD as you are. But when I couldn't find a changer that would play SVCD in 3 electronic stores I started worrying about putting so much time into converting only to be stuck with a wonderfully useless collection of shiny round things a few years down the road. In fact, I'm a bit worried that my next DVD player (hi def?) won't be able to read the DVD-R brand I use now let alone (S)VCD.

[Carlos Garcia]

I was wondering, can burning a DVD-R at 1X as opposed to 2X actually make the media readable for a longer period of time? I mean, you would imagine that if the laser stays longer on one spot, then the image would be burned deeper, or better. Just thinking out loud, but food for thought. As for me, I actually believe this theory so I'll keep on burning at 1X.

CG

[ima2hd]

DarkMatter: Thanks for the comments and I understand. I had a single disc Magnavox that plays svcd's beautifully & I just purchased a 5 disc Samsung dvd/svcd player for $150 last weekend. yes eventually it will croak. And then I'd be forced to watch my svcd's on my pc I guess that isn't so bad I have a nice monitor. But yes I know what your getting at I might not be able to get a svcd player down the road. I am also one of those who has been dissapointed with no High Definition software or playback media everything with HD has to be real time. I was working for an Electronics store back in 97' when DVD came out & our current HD system came out about that time or shortly thereafter with no playback media for HD. And indeed I would think that when HD DVD players do come out hopefully they will play back older dvd's dvdr's etc. maybe even svcd's. Then you will see re-realeses of everything all over again speial edition this special edition that etc etc etc. with a new special edition of that same title soon to follow 9 months later.. isn't every DVD a special edition or a Ultimate edition or wait lest we forget Director's Cut/Uncencored. Take Care Will

[rsubishop]

for what its worth for the discussion, i've used nothing but optodisk media, with labels for the past 6 months with no problems with the disks. I'm with the group that splits the dvd into 2 disks and i've gotten my actual computer time down to around 3 minutes which makes it well worth my time to burn dvds. As far as pixilation ect.. I've never seen this or any of the probems ive read about on here. I experience two scenarios:1. The disk plays perfect, (about 95%) or 2. The disk doesnt play at all.

[padre]

rsubishop

Good feedback! I'm glad to hear of another individual who uses 'inexpensive' media and doesn't have major problems. A few on this board believe the only way to create a good, reliable DVD it to pay higher prices for the disc.

I too split my DVD's into 2, rather than recompile and lose quality. Besides, at $1.30 or so a disc, it's not worth the time/effort. The only step I'm working on next is to keep the menus, and I've had help with that from a few cool people on this board.

[rsubishop]

Here's another thought to the cheap media. Please keep in mind this was all speculation based on a little experience. I used to work with a local music production studio makeing cdr copies of local bands music for them. I probably burned around 3000 disks. As everyone did with cdr, I tried the cheapo 15 cent disks. The results I had were this: If I used unbranded disks, there were invariably problems. I'm not sure as to why, but you will notice that cheap unbranded cdr's are much easier to see through than nicer disks. If I used cheap "branded" cdr's, everything worked fine, but of course this hindered the labeling. Possibly the reflectivity is a problem with the unbranded ones? So If I wanted unbranded disks to work I had to used better disks. maybe the same is true with dvdr? The optodisk I'm using has a label on it. For everyone having problems with the cheap media, is it branded or unbraded? This is all speculation though, but as I said, I'm having great success with my cheap media.

[rsubishop]

When I said the optodisk i'm using has a label on it, I meant it has a brand on it, sorry :)

[rsubishop]

hey jesoonster,

I'm not questioning the validity of your test, but try somthing other than a dvd-RW The rewritables are a different dye all together. Not really a fair test.

[padre]

rsubishop

I wondered the same thing (branded vs non-branded) because when I initially bought PrimeDisc, they had the PrimeDisc logo stamped on the top layer. However, in the bulk (50 & 100) spindles, they have no logo on top. They also work perfectly.

But for me, the key has been using ADVDinfo to see the true manufacturer and 'generation' of the disc.

What's funny is a couple of people have had some problems with the 'unbranded' TDK's, and when they looked at the disc with ADVDinfo, it was the same as the branded ones. Weird?!

[rsubishop]

Padre,
If the tdk disks they were having trouble with were unbranded, and they were the same disks as the branded ones, it kind of matches the results I had with cdr media. Maybe having the brand on them makes them read better for some reason? reflectivity? I know your not having trouble, but maybe your player has a stronger laser? is that possible? I know my jvc player will read anything I through at it, but maybe other players are more finiky? (sp?)

[padre]

You could be on to something. I know that if you use labels that have bad glue, you can effect the ability to read the data, because it eats away at the top side (which, in turn, effects the recording side).

[gooki]

I do it for the fun and to make myself more knowledgeable about the DVD video format. I also sell DVD-R media and want to be able to help out my customers if they ever encounter problems, so having this wealth of information in my head and on the net is a godsend.

[Taz69]

I think the reason why branded discs seem to work better than unbranded (or from a cheaper brand) discs is down to quality control.

With DVD-Rs I have done a fair amount of testing to find which discs play on my friends DVD Player without problems and have noticed that several brands which should be the same discs have very different results.

This is speculation but I expect CD & DVD media is graded in a similar fashion to processors.

i.e. with processors it is well known that a P4 1.6Ghz could be exactly the same chip as a P4 2Ghz other than the fact that in testing the P4 2Mhz is of a higher quality, were as the 1.6Mhz processor might run okay at a lower speed but show errors when Intel attemt to run it at a higher speed due to slight defects on the chip.

From my results I'm sure that something similar is happening with CD/DVD media in that TDK (for example) test their blank discs and brand the perfect ones for themselves. Of the ones which are not upto standard some of these are likely to work but just don't quite pass QC and these are the ones which end up being supplied by cheaper brands depending on their more tolerant QC checks. This would follow that the unbranded media could have failed several QC checks and only passed a more relaxed quality check before being sold at the cheaper price unbranded.

I have had 'discussions' with one or two suppliers who are trying to sell unbranded media on the strengh that it has to be better because it is Generation 3 (4 now) where I know from burning that the discs I am after might not be the latest versions out but they work because they are of a higher quality.

I'll stop waffling and just say that if you find something that works don't change just because of a higher number or because the supplier tells you it is the same as such and such a disc.(Try a few first...)

[baker]

right I havent read teh rest of this post but if you me opinion, read on.

buy a 100 cd holder, also buy 100 crappy blank dvds, and a felt tip marker, total cost=25 bucks.

get dvd-dvdr by chat walker, and a copy of CCE, total cost .20 bucks.

Now when ever you rent a dvd you can stick it in, copy it in faster then real time, burn it and wella!! total movie copied and burnt in 2-3hrs, (while you were asleep of course! ;-))

Now why on earth isn't that worth doing.

also in the wsie words of norm peterson:

"never overthink, otherwise everything fall's apart"

Baker