broken frames when muxing OGMs

[Beave]

When I mux an DivX5 file in an OGM Container, no matter if with or without sound, I get distorted frames once in a while. They are only noticable in motion scenes though, but I see something like 20+ of them in one movie. The avi itself is ok, just the muxing in OGM (tried Koepi's tool and Graphedit) garbles the picture sometimes. This is pretty bad, since you have to watch carefully quite a bit of the movie, until you notice them. Here is a screenshot
(http://www.f4.fhtw-berlin.de/people/s0342232/Pledge.jpg)

You probably all know how this is supposed to look like :sly:

These Bad frames appear always at the same time, no matter what audio I mux it with or where I save them.

I'm using Win XP and the newest OggDS 0.9.9.0.

Anybody else has those problems?

[Neo Neko]

Can't say i have had this problem. I hardly use Divx any more. Are you using 5.01 PRO? That might be partly at fault here.

[Mr. Man]

Originally posted by Beave
When I mux an DivX5 file in an OGM Container, no matter if with or without sound, I get distorted frames once in a while. They are only noticable in motion scenes though, but I see something like 20+ of them in one movie. The avi itself is ok, just the muxing in OGM (tried Koepi's tool and Graphedit) garbles the picture sometimes. This is pretty bad, since you have to watch carefully quite a bit of the movie, until you notice them. Here is a screenshot
(http://www.f4.fhtw-berlin.de/people/s0342232/Pledge.jpg)

You probably all know how this is supposed to look like :sly:

These Bad frames appear always at the same time, no matter what audio I mux it with or where I save them.

I'm using Win XP and the newest OggDS 0.9.9.0.

Anybody else has those problems?



I've got the same problem. I'm using DivX 5.01 Pro, OggDS 0.9.9.0, Quarter Pixel, GMC and B-Frames. Same Issue, currupt frames after muxing in either OggMux or Graphedit.

[MaTTeR]

I'm with Neo here, though I don't use DivX, I've never seen this artifact happen.

Is this happening also with Xvid?

[Beave]

I was using DivX 5.01 Pro as well. But only B-Frames.

I tried demuxing those OGMs back into an AVI Container and those Errors dissapeared. Then I muxed them back into OGM and I couldn't find any bad frames anymore. This is definatly weird and always takes quite some time to track, since I need to watch several minutes of the movie to maybe find those mistakes.

Unfortunatly I deleted those original AVIs where I know they produced those mistakes. I have do some new testing now.

It's pretty dangarous to use OGM at the moment for me. I think I have to wait a little until those mistakes are being taken care of.
Looks like I have to stick to AVI for now or watch the OGM carefully before burning them.

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by Beave
Looks like I have to stick to AVI for now or watch the OGM carefully before burning them.

Or use Xvid and still enjoy the quality of OGM;)

[Neo Neko]

We will have to point Tobias to this. It was as I feared that there have been problems with the newest versions of Divx 5.01. I have read up on some of the changes and could see a couple of areas where problems could arrise. To those who are experiencing these problems what software did you encode with? It might also be to blame. Virtualdub is basically the only piece of software that I know of to date to propperly handle Divx 5.01. Flask and XMPEG have hardly been touched in the last year or so.

[Beave]

Well I used Virtual Dub with avisynth. But the funny thing is that I muxed it to OGM than back to AVI and back to OGM and could not find any errors anymore, but I have to test more, if I have the time.

[Neo Neko]

Did the movie still look fine?

[Beave]

Yes the movie looked fine, maybe even the same just without the mistakes.

Are You XVID-users sure you don't have those errors? Because you have to watch the whole movie to maybe find some of those.

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by Beave
Are You XVID-users sure you don't have those errors? Because you have to watch the whole movie to maybe find some of those.

I'm 100% positive I've never seen that artifact on any of my XviD movies, around 50-60 full movies. I would have definitely seen these problems should they have appeared.

[Neo Neko]

Have yet to have a glitch yet. But anything is possible. For Xvid still being Alpha at this point it has been just as capable and stable for me as any version of divx if not more so. Divx has had long standing and notorious problems with AMD and P4 systems. Even with the constant changes to the Xvid code it runs excelent.

[Rasi]

well, as i have been using divx3 and xvid at several resolutions and with both codecs got the same problems i am sure its not a thing about xvid here...

[ChristianHJW]

@all with similar probs :

Please list your video cards and installe driver versions here. Maybe we find similarities and its an incompatibility of Tobias' Ogg parser and a specific video driver or video card !

[animefan]

I had those and other strange problems with OGM files. I encoded the XVID AVI files with VirtualDub and then used GraphEdit to multiplex the XVID (AVI file) and OGG streams into OGM files.

I found out that by first 'converting' the AVI file that was created by VirtualDub into a new AVI file with GraphEdit (multiplexing set to max.) and then using this new AVI file for multiplexing the OGM files those problems disappeared.

[Rasi]

did just try that ..... doesnt work for me...

well, i have a tnt2 card.. (asus v3800) and the latest nvidia detonators...



i am also wondering if its maybe a problem with the playback driver for the ogm files? maybe the file itself is ok... no clue...

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by Rasi

i am also wondering if its maybe a problem with the playback driver for the ogm files? maybe the file itself is ok... no clue...

That can't be the problem since I'm using the TNT2 M64 card as well. Like I say, I've never seen this problem before.

Latest official Detonators installed.

[Beave]

I'm using a Asus v7100 Geforce 2 MX with the official Asus driver 2742.

Is there a tool where you can view the ogm like an avi in VDub? It hard to say how many frames in a row those mistakes appear, for example.

[TobiasWaldvogel]

I will try to find out what's going wrong although I really don't like to do DivX test anymore. (My first DivX5 Encoding, TO AN AVI FILE, resulted in some strange green lines and I detected this after deleting the source file). I'm using XVid and I can only recommend to everyone to use XVid instead of DivX. (And for DivX file a mapping to XVid in the OggSpliter :) )

[Rasi]

ok... update.. my last 2 xvid rips... i converted the avi to ogm and got frozen frames... did the same clips with exatcly the same filters on a different machine.. everythings fine.. so software seems not to be a problem.. it must be something else...

not the same graphic cards by the way.... ATI did work

[aleksander]

Well guys..
Hope you will find what can be the problem.
I have faced this yesterday. Tried multiplexing, demultiplexing and again multiplexing and it's still there - at the same part of the movie. Demulitplexed file looks just fine.
FYI - I used VD, divx 5.01PRO (only GMC) on a GeForce 2 PRO with latest detonators (if this can help...)
I haven't tried xvid, so cannot tell if the problem exists with xvid - but for sure it exists with divx 5.01 pro.

take care

[unplugged]

Can be a performance related problem?

I'm using DivX 5.01 and Ogg OGM + Vorbis, on my Athlon XP 2100+ I don't see any glitch.

Must to say that in other non-poor machines I have seen some random stuttering, this seem to appear since latest OggDS filters...... ?


P.S.: Why preferring XviD instead of DivX5 so strongly?
I know XviD is free, but I have made more blind test and at same bitrate I must say that DivX5 has more and more *detail*.
One thing that don't like much is B-frame, almost how it is implemented in DivX5.
50% of B-Frames has too blocky detail.

B-Frame is not yet perfect in DivX5.

[Koepi]

"b-frame is not perfect in divx5"

Well, if you'd use the same quantizers for b-frames as for I adn P frames the result would look way better, but the file size would be bigger than without b-frames.
Until now they just double the quantizer. This is the reason for seeing "blocky details".

And, if you don't want to use XviD, it's your fault.
Don't push the people to a commercial crappy codec. It's blurrier, thus the details are more random effects.

But thanks for your trust in us :P

Koepi

[unplugged]

Originally posted by Koepi
Don't push the people to a commercial crappy codec.
It's blurrier, thus the details are more random effects.

How do you compare frames to say this??? :rolleyes:
Give me a good setup to make the RIGHT comparison, I mean a good setup for XviD.
Hey :), I m not talking bad of XviD.
I made my comparison with two VirtualDub sessions and/or directly with players (with postfilter to 0)

About random effets, I know what you mean, but this patterning or dithering is most generated by Q-Pel, and the positive effects of Q-Pel are more than negative (as I have seen).

Originally posted by Koepi

But thanks for your trust in us :P

I believe in free projects, believe me (as happen with LAME :cool:, that is "the edge" for MP3).
But I will wait a bit for XviD.
FREE is the CODEC, FREE is my opinion.

[Beave]

Can be a performance related problem?
I'm having a Athlon TB 1400 and don't think that playback performance is an issue here. It always appears at the same frames in the movies and lookes like the frozen frames we know from DIVX3.

By the way I only use b-frames with Divx5.01 and I'm happy with the results.

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by unplugged
Can be a performance related problem?

I'm using DivX 5.01 and Ogg OGM + Vorbis, on my Athlon XP 2100+ I don't see any glitch.

Must to say that in other non-poor machines I have seen some random stuttering, this seem to appear since latest OggDS filters...... ?


It could possibly be a machine specific problem. But it is also possible to be a software problem. More likely in this case than a hardware problem. If I understood the original post right that is. Bframes be damned the OGG DSF could handle the 5.0 B frame implimentation just fine. But if I am not mistaken there have been some things changed for 5.01. And that might be the fly in the ointment. I will get a copy of 5.01 here and try it for myself. Anyone else who has it and has done it that could give some good yes or no insight would also be helpfull.

Originally posted by unplugged
P.S.: Why preferring XviD instead of DivX5 so strongly?
I know XviD is free, but I have made more blind test and at same bitrate I must say that DivX5 has more and more *detail*.
One thing that don't like much is B-frame, almost how it is implemented in DivX5.
50% of B-Frames has too blocky detail.

B-Frame is not yet perfect in DivX5.

As you mentioned Xvid is free. But there are other factors. I just love the built in 2-pass code. I say make the video this size and it does. No fiddling around with a bitrate calc to figure out the correct nominal bitrate only to find that Divx over or under allocated. Also you can use existing Nandub stats files and tools. Someone say Gordian Knot? Individual I, P, and soon to come B frame quantizer settings are awesome as well. Divx 4 and 5 only gives you one quantizer controll set. Depending on the rez of the video I love to tweak the quantizers. I still make some 320x240 videos mostly for my dreamcast or to share over the net. Quantizers of 1-31 are way to much. I set I frame quantizers to 1-6 and the P frame quantizers to 1-12 and the resulting video comes out super sharp slick and with minimal quantization errors! Divx3, 4, or 5 has not been able to do this well this easily for me. Also the alt-curve compression is very usefull as well. Not to mention that you can turn CPU optimisations on or off and it is less buggy acrost systems than Divx has been historically. They have done in Xvid what should have been done in Divx. I have come to love Xvid's features so much that I can hardly force my self to play with Divx lately. The features that have been added to Divx lately are buggy or just not that usefull. I do not bash Divx because they are a company or because of their actions. Actually I don't bash it period. I just live the Xvid features. I use them EVERY DAY!

[MaTTeR]

Well said Neo:D I share your same thoughts. (Not that you didnt know that;) )

[alamatula]

Hello
I have that same problem with Divx5.01 and Ogg container. I've encoded to divx5pro (b-frames, GMC) and the avi if perfect, but when i mux it to get an Ogg Container there are some frames that turn bad:(. I've done some tests so far and when i select 'Source Interlace' to "All frames are interlaced" instead of "All frames are progressive" i get less bad frames but still a few:(. I've noted that changing 250 keyframe interval to 90 will get even less bad frames but still geting some:(.
Would be cool if someone could solve this.
Guess i gotta try out Xvid as u say it is so good but Divx501 was getting me a really good picture as i never got before with nothing else:).

Thx for helping out.

[zulu]

uuhmm...since i encountered the same problem yesterday, i'd like to know if there is any solution/fix to this ogg/divx5 issue yet.
doe's anybody pay attention to it?

[Rasi]

hmm... i am using the same gfx card driver, but have updated to windows XP now, and the frozen frames are gone... still using xvid :)

[Didée]

Hi folks,

my first post here ... introducing though may come another time.
(And btw this is no n00b talking ;) )

Originally posted by MaTTeR


Or use Xvid and still enjoy the quality of OGM;)

Alas, I have to say that I experienced this once in a while, too - with XviD encodes! (17-04, if I remember right)
The funny thing is, the error was not 100% reproducable: Closing the *.ogm and re-opening it showed the same error most times, but not everytime!
Lately, I was busy building my new rig and did only very few encodes, so I don´t dare to say either the problem is still there nor it is gone ...

But I definetly have seen this error with XviD encodes, so it is not only a divx5-issue.
(However, I can´t say too much about divx5 - stopped using that thing two days after it appeared, and am a *proud* XviD user since then ;) )

To complete, that all was drawn by an ATI 8500DV, which _always_ has the very newest PlutoniumXP-drivers running.

Greetings

Didée

[alamatula]

Yeah a solution to this problem would be great.
I'm using a Asus GeForce3 ti200 with Nvidia Drivers v23.11.

Tryed alot of diferent configuration and still got a few bad frames

Here is a sample of the bug...Avi file not yet muxed into Ogg Container (http://clientes.netvisao.pt/julgomes/Media/AviSample.avi) and file muxeg into Ogg Container (http://clientes.netvisao.pt/julgomes/Media/OggSample.ogm)

Note: it was encoded with Divx5.01 2 pass-encoding 750kbps (b-frames and GMC ON, Psychovisual at strong, preprocessing source at light, 250 max Key frame interval)

[Neo Neko]

I am using the latest versions of things now including Divx 5.0.1 Pro. And there are indeed a few glitches. It does not do this with Divx 5.0 PRO. But whenever I use B frames and then mux to an OGG file I get zero bad frames. The video begins to play and then abruptly crashes at the first B frame. Maybey there are some bad frapes, but I never get that far. I would still rather use Xvid. But for completeness sake this definatly needs to be looked at. :(

[HeLLRaZoR]

I am having the same problem as you guys. When the video is viewed alone it's fine. When I mux in the ogg audio i get the bad frames at exactly the same spot no matter what i do. I tried OggMux, graphedit, combineaviogg...still the same glitches. I decided to try and mux it with MP3 audio instead and the problem goes away. I think it's a problem with the Ogg Direct Show Filters. Anyone else have the same conclusion?

[geoffwa]

Aieee!

I've run into this problem too. Definitely an OGM problem, since my source AVIs are fine. If someone got Oggcut working I could even post an example.

Does OggMux try to match the length of the video/audio streams during muxing? All of the streams I've been encoding have had silence added at the start (courtesy of BeSweet).

[facts]

Disabling the ffdshow filter stopped the crashes for me. :)

[zulu]

Disabling the ffdshow filter stopped the crashes for me.

do you mean you get rid of the broken frames?

[alamatula]

Still got the bad frames:(

[NetZwerg]

This certainly seems to be a playback problem only ->

a) demuxing the movie and playing it without sound (or remuxed in avi format) solves the problem

b) same file plays back broken on one pc and ok on another (tested on two win2000 pcs with divx501)

[Beave]

Any word from Tobias? Is he onto this problem, does anybody know?

Some question about XVID:
Is it possible to do CompTests? If yes, how and what % is ok? I want to try this Codec out sometime.
With DivX I usually do a Compressability Test before encoding and the results are great! I don't want to analize a movie between the two passes, adjust any curves/quantizers or what so ever. I want to trust the codec, that it has done a good job by itself. Can you use the playbackfilter of DivX 5?

[facts]

quote:
Disabling the ffdshow filter stopped the crashes for me.

do you mean you get rid of the broken frames?

no, my players were actually crashing upon opening the video.

[PeterTheMaster]

i use divx502, same thing. avi file looks good, as soon as muxed it has these broken frames. i cannot provide a screenshot since i am to dumb for it. when i press print and then paste in paint, the wmp window in the picture shows only blackness although the real one has the broken frame...
this happens on my laptop with an integrated sis 630 graphics chip and on my geforce 2 computer. both win2k. encoded using latest avisynth and virtualdub, muxed with latest oggmux. in the same file the glitches always appear in the same place (frame). they always seem to be only one frame long. (hard to catch with space bar, its getting time that vdub supports it.)

another observation i made: when the smooth playback option of the divx502 playback filter is used i thought the effect was gone but instead it just looks different. (i could play the OggSample.ogm from this thread with this option checked, maybe since it has no sound. when this option is used with an ogm file with sound, the picture is black.)

the blocks seem to be no random crap but other parts of the same or previous or next frame. i saw the left ear of a person 3 times in a picture. is it important to find out where exactly they come from? then one should make frames that look likes coordinate systems with different background color.

[Belgabor]

Originally posted by PeterTheMaster
i use divx502, same thing. avi file looks good, as soon as muxed it has these broken frames. i cannot provide a screenshot since i am to dumb for it. when i press print and then paste in paint, the wmp window in the picture shows only blackness although the real one has the broken frame...


Try wrinting a small avisynth script that opens the file (perhaps with directshowsource) and do the framecap with vdub.

Regards
Belgabor

[kilg0r3]

@PeterTheMaster

try disabling hardware accelaration or using virtual dub 1.4.9 (1.4.10 does not work for me) File/Print Image Sequence. Make sure you have a very small selection or you will get bounch of thousands of bitmap files.

[nah]

Hello,

Ok, I've notice also these bad frame when muxing into OGM (I only encode with DivX 5.02).
I've installed the last ffdshow filter and it seems OK.
No bad frames anymore (at least in my video).

[PeterTheMaster]

right, with ffdshow doesnt show these glitches, so i think we can at least be sure that they are not coded into the .ogm file but a problem of the divx502 playback filter like that bright bar was...

but ffdshow has another problem: as soon as i use gamma correction it crashes when i open an .ogm file.
and i always brighten up divx files because the dvds or mpgs they come from are always to dark.
so i will live with the few glitches and hope divx503 playback filter fixes them.

[alamatula]

WEll when i activate the ffdshow to filter Divx5 i can't watch any video in Ogg Container cause it always crash when i deactivate ffdshow for divx5 it doesn't crash but still got those glitches. Peter u talked about gamma correction but when do i deactivate that?
All my other videos in Divx5 that are not using Ogg Container play fine with ffdshow.....

[PeterTheMaster]

the ffdshow i had before even crashed without gamma correction, maybe you have to have the latest version.
btw: why is ffdshow not on the doom9 download page?

[alamatula]

I've downloaded from FFDSHOW page (http://cutka.szm.sk/xvid/xvid.html) and it's the latest version maybe u have some older one. BTW if ffdshow can correct those glitches in Ogg Container Divx5 shouldn't be that hard to use those implementations from it in OggDShow filter....I guess :)

[PeterTheMaster]

the latest one on your page is 020418, mine is ffdshow-20020521.exe

for me it looks like some trivial error like the bright bar was, if they get to know about the problem im sure it wont be there in the next version.