madVR with LG OLED C8

[ThunderFi]

Have you switched the TV into 23p? :)
Honestly, I can't tell more that we've already discussed: go through them again and experiment, it has to work!
Let us know when it does and what was the issue.


What do you mean by changing the TV into 23p? Shouldn't it be enough to change the refresh rate in NVIDIA CP? I haven't tried doing anything again yet but might do so soon. I want to get it working but I've been so frustrated with the issues I've been having that I wanted to take a break.

EDIT: Something that has happened a few times happened again. After a restart the default 23 Hz from NVIDIA CP resulted in a smooth playback. Then I restarted my PC without changing ANY SETTINGS and the playback went back to being choppy/stuttery. How is that even possible? What's going on?

[Asmodian]

Are you sure the choppy/stuttery is due to the wrong refresh rate? Trust the OSD's drop/repeat rate for tuning the refresh rate, if the OSD says everything is fine but you are getting stuttery playback your issue is not due to the refresh rate but something else.

Have you tried using Windowed Overlay in madVR? Disable D3D11 and enable windowed overlay to see if that helps.

Edit: Smooth motion is a great option too, I usually use it even though I also have a well tuned 23 Hz refresh rate.

[j82k]

Here's the original post from AVS:

"For those wondering how to turn off Real Cinema in HDR mode, I managed to find a way to do it.
You all noticed that the menu is grayed out in HDR mode and can't be changed, but still active anyway.

The trick is simple for those who use a HTPC, other will need to connect a laptop to the TV on the HDMI input you want to change, and force HDR mode through windows.
Go into the settings menu where RC is located, then open your graphic card utility, and change the refresh rate.
You will notice that for a very small time, RC options becomes selectable at the refresh rate change then is greyed out again (we're talking about half a second here, really quick).
I tried to use the remote to get into the RC menu in that short time window, could'n do it, but after several refresh rate changes, I bugged the menu, and RC stayed active, then I could change it.
I checked afterwards, playing a hdr video, the RC menu is grayed out again, but it is now disabled.

For HTPC users, madvr with display options off, smooth motion always, display set to 60Hz, RC off and TM off, enjoy a completely judder free playback."

Thanks, just tried this for like an hour and unfortunately I can't get it to work. I even made batch files with display changer so I can switch refresh rates really fast but it never glitched and even when I was fast enough to get into the real cinema option that seemed to just change it for the SDR preset which the TV switches to for like a second while changing refresh rate.
I know that I had this real cinema glitch unintentionally happen some time ago. I can only imagine that they fixed this in a firmware update. I have a C8 btw so maybe it just doesn't work on that one anymore.

[VBB]

Thanks, just tried this for like an hour and unfortunately I can't get it to work. I even made batch files with display changer so I can switch refresh rates really fast but it never glitched and even when I was fast enough to get into the real cinema option that seemed to just change it for the SDR preset which the TV switches to for like a second while changing refresh rate.
I know that I had this real cinema glitch unintentionally happen some time ago. I can only imagine that they fixed this in a firmware update. I have a C8 btw so maybe it just doesn't work on that one anymore.

It's possible this doesn't work on the 8-series. I don't understand why LG chose to permanently enable Real Cinema for HDR only. Makes no sense...

The way I was able to do this was, in SDR mode I opened the menu down to the Real Cinema "on/off" option. Then I started playing an HDR file, and while the TV switched into HDR mode I was able to select "off" for like a split second. Took me a few tries.

Have you tried 60Hz in PC mode? I wonder if the banding is any better with the 8-series. In PC mode Real Cinema is disabled by default in both SDR and HDR, as I'm sure you know.

[VBB]

ThunderFi, I think your stuttering issue is with the RTX 2080. Many people have reported this. Maybe Asmodian recalls what the actual fix, if any, was. If you insist on having madVR frame rate switch, I'd make sure that actually works, before messing with custom resolutions at all.

1. Get rid of all custom resolutions in both madVR and nVidia control panel. Make sure Windows HDR is disabled.
2. Reset nVidia control panel to defaults.
3. In the nVidia control panel, under Manage 3D Settings, only change Power Management Mode to "Adaptive". Leave everything else at defaults.
4. Under Change Resolution, leave it set to the panel's native resolution and 60Hz. Check "Use NVIDIA color settings", RGB, 8 bpc, Full.
5. In madVR, set display modes like here: https://i.postimg.cc/vTCHLLLC/display-modes.png
6. In madVR, under rendering, general settings, uncheck "enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode" (if that still results in stuttering, try with it checked to see if it makes a difference)
7. Play a video to see if the switching works as it should.

Alternative approach for playback at 60Hz only:

5. In madVR, uncheck everything here: https://i.postimg.cc/vTCHLLLC/display-modes.png. Under rendering, smooth motion, check "always".

[ThunderFi]

Are you sure the choppy/stuttery is due to the wrong refresh rate? Trust the OSD's drop/repeat rate for tuning the refresh rate, if the OSD says everything is fine but you are getting stuttery playback your issue is not due to the refresh rate but something else.

Have you tried using Windowed Overlay in madVR? Disable D3D11 and enable windowed overlay to see if that helps.

Edit: Smooth motion is a great option too, I usually use it even though I also have a well tuned 23 Hz refresh rate.

I tested with a few other refresh rates as well again, to see if the stuttering persists. Apparently the higher I go in the refresh rates the less noticeable the stuttering is. Here's an example of the stuttering when the TV is set to 23 Hz: https://gfycat.com/threadbaredependentcoelacanth Sorry for the not so great quality, but you should be able to see how the playback stutters or whatever you want to call it.

Anyway, switching to windowed overlay and disabling D3D11 seems to be working right now, the playback is smooth even with the regular not optimized 23 Hz refresh rate. There's a frame drop every ~6 minutes or so but there's no stuttering.

After testing that, I restarted my PC because I have had cases when the playback was smooth but after a restart it turned back to stuttering. After the restart the movie was still smooth. I tested with same movie in VLC (not using madVR) to just see if the stuttering happens with that and it does.

I also tried disabling only D3D11 and with that I tried FSE and windowed overlay and neither of those. The only one that resulted in a non-stuttering playback was when I had D3D11 disabled and windowed overlay enabled. This is very weird to me, this can't be the way it's "supposed to be", right?

Is there disadvantages to not using D3D11 and using windowed overlay with it? Without D3D11 madVR uses D3D9. Should I try to make D3D11 work somehow and if so, any suggestions? Also, any further information on why having D3D11 enabled without windowed overlay results in stuttering playback?

EDIT: Replying to VBB:

ThunderFi, I think your stuttering issue is with the RTX 2080. Many people have reported this. Maybe Asmodian recalls what the actual fix, if any, was. If you insist on having madVR frame rate switch, I'd make sure that actually works, before messing with custom resolutions at all.

1. Get rid of all custom resolutions in both madVR and nVidia control panel. Make sure Windows HDR is disabled.
2. Reset nVidia control panel to defaults.
3. In the nVidia control panel, under Manage 3D Settings, only change Power Management Mode to "Adaptive". Leave everything else at defaults.
4. Under Change Resolution, leave it set to the panel's native resolution and 60Hz. Check "Use NVIDIA color settings", RGB, 8 bpc, Full.
5. In madVR, set display modes like here: https://i.postimg.cc/vTCHLLLC/display-modes.png
6. In madVR, under rendering, general settings, uncheck "enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode" (if that still results in stuttering, try with it checked to see if it makes a difference)
7. Play a video to see if the switching works as it should.

Alternative approach for playback at 60Hz only:

5. In madVR, uncheck everything here: https://i.postimg.cc/vTCHLLLC/display-modes.png. Under rendering, smooth motion, check "always".

Actually I wasn't using madVR frame rate switch. The stuttering was even with the regular 23 Hz I can select in NVIDIA CP or straight from Windows. Right now everything seems to be working fine with D3D11 disabled and windowed overlay enabled. But like I said before the edit, this can't be the way it's "supposed to be"? And is there downsides to not using D3D11?

About the adaptive power management. I use my PC to play games quite a bit and I have selected the maximum performance on a game by game basis. The overall 3D setting for power management is at default.

[VBB]

About the adaptive power management. I use my PC to play games quite a bit and I have selected the maximum performance on a game by game basis. The overall 3D setting for power management is at default.

If default in your case = optimal, then you definitely want to switch that to adaptive or max performance globally. Optimal throttles madVR a lot, so you will get dropped frames.

[ThunderFi]

If default in your case = optimal, then you definitely want to switch that to adaptive or max performance globally. Optimal throttles madVR a lot, so you will get dropped frames.

Yes that's the default. I actually had set the maximum performance for MPC-HC specifically and checked with GPU-Z that my GPU is running at maximum core and memory clock (my GPU is overclocked). Do you still think I should adjust the global setting, or should it be enough to put only MPC-HC at maximum performance?

[VBB]

Yes that's the default. I actually had set the maximum performance for MPC-HC specifically and checked with GPU-Z that my GPU is running at maximum core and memory clock (my GPU is overclocked). Do you still think I should adjust the global setting, or should it be enough to put only MPC-HC at maximum performance?

Setting it individually should be enough. I still believe your problem is with the RTX card itself. They have been known to cause stuttering without dropped/repeated frames reported in madVR.

To answer your other question, Direct3D 11 should work, and it is a requirement for greater than 8-bit playback. Nothing wrong with Direct3D 9 overlay, though. But with that, you might want to set the entire video chain to 8-bit (which is preferred on the OLEDs anyway due to banding with 10/12-bit).

[Asmodian]

Right now everything seems to be working fine with D3D11 disabled and windowed overlay enabled. But like I said before the edit, this can't be the way it's "supposed to be"? And is there downsides to not using D3D11?

The only downside to not using D3D11 is that you cannot use >8 bit. If you do not use 10 bit anyway there are no downsides. Windowed Overlay bypasses most of the OS so it is a good option when the OS is doing something bad. Screenshots outside of madVR do not work, I suppose that could be considered a downside.

I believe the issue is a combination of the new WDM in Win10 1903 and Nvidia's current drivers for the RTX cards. I had it with the first driver for the new WDM but not with any of the later ones. It is still a common issue reported by users and I do not know why some systems have it and some not. :(

[j82k]

It's possible this doesn't work on the 8-series. I don't understand why LG chose to permanently enable Real Cinema for HDR only. Makes no sense...

The way I was able to do this was, in SDR mode I opened the menu down to the Real Cinema "on/off" option. Then I started playing an HDR file, and while the TV switched into HDR mode I was able to select "off" for like a split second. Took me a few tries.

Have you tried 60Hz in PC mode? I wonder if the banding is any better with the 8-series. In PC mode Real Cinema is disabled by default in both SDR and HDR, as I'm sure you know.

Thanks for the help, somehow I got RC turned off for the HDR Cinema preset now, so it still works on the 8 series. :)

I'm not even sure how I got it to work but I was basically using madTPG to constantly turn HDR on and off while aiming and mashing with the remote at the real cinema option.

It is now greyed out but definitely disabled because 60 Hz + madVR smooth motion would cause terrible hitching and stutter if real cinema was enabled.

PC-mode HDR still has bad banding on the C8 even with 8-bit output.

Also, thanks LG for locking certain settings for absolutely no reason and having me mash buttons for 2 hours to glitch disable it...


https://i.imgur.com/wRHnw0V.jpg

[VBB]

Awesome! Let me know what you think of using the 60Hz + smooth motion combo. After using it for a while now, I couldn't go back to native frame rate + Real Cinema/TruMotion. My only issue is that I don't want to use the built-in apps anymore :D

[ThunderFi]

Setting it individually should be enough. I still believe your problem is with the RTX card itself. They have been known to cause stuttering without dropped/repeated frames reported in madVR.

To answer your other question, Direct3D 11 should work, and it is a requirement for greater than 8-bit playback. Nothing wrong with Direct3D 9 overlay, though. But with that, you might want to set the entire video chain to 8-bit (which is preferred on the OLEDs anyway due to banding with 10/12-bit).

Okay, thanks. I'll set MPC-HC to max performance like so. Thanks for the info. I might like the 10 bit more still, even with the banding. Really sucks that it doesn't work properly because of the stuttering.

The only downside to not using D3D11 is that you cannot use >8 bit. If you do not use 10 bit anyway there are no downsides. Windowed Overlay bypasses most of the OS so it is a good option when the OS is doing something bad. Screenshots outside of madVR do not work, I suppose that could be considered a downside.

I believe the issue is a combination of the new WDM in Win10 1903 and Nvidia's current drivers for the RTX cards. I had it with the first driver for the new WDM but not with any of the later ones. It is still a common issue reported by users and I do not know why some systems have it and some not. :(

Thanks for the info as well! I kind of would like to use 10 bit so this is not the optimal setup for me. But I guess it's still better than what it was, now the movies are at least watchable. But if it's a WDM/driver issue then there's nothing else for me to do other try to roll back to previous ones and see what works? Would contacting NVIDIA be a good idea? That's really weird that not everyone has the same problem. What's also weird is that sometimes the default 23 Hz worked properly with D3D11 and no windowed overlay but then a PC restart made the problem come back. That's something that I just don't understand. How can something work properly but after a restart and without changing any settings it's back to stuttering like a madman?

Also, I have 3 displays in my setup. The first one is a 1440p 144 Hz display, the second one is a 1080p 144 Hz display and the third one is my LG C8. I tried to watch a movie in 23 Hz on my main display, the 1440p one and on that display there is no stuttering even when D3D11 is enabled. Could that be because of the display is connected via display port and the C8 is connected via HDMI? Or is it something else? They both use the same GPU so shouldn't the problem be the same, or does the cable affect it?

[Asmodian]

Windows is not good at handling screens with refresh rates that do not match the main screen. If you set all your displays to 23 Hz or disable the other two I expect your issue to go away. The issue with reboots is part of the reason I strongly suspect Windows, something changes about how it is handling the WDM after a reboot.

[ThunderFi]

Windows is not good at handling screens with refresh rates that do not match the main screen. If you set all your displays to 23 Hz or disable the other two I expect your issue to go away. The issue with reboots is part of the reason I strongly suspect Windows, something changes about how it is handling the WDM after a reboot.

I have noticed that myself as well. Previously my second monitor was 60 Hz while my main monitor was 144 Hz. Things got better after I got both of them to be 144 Hz. Now there's the TV in the mix as well.

I tried disabling the other displays and leaving only my TV connected to my PC. I still couldn't use D3D11. The same stuttering happened again as before. So it isn't about the other two displays. At least it shouldn't be, right?

Any other ideas? I would love to get this fixed. Do you still think the problem is related to Windows or could it be my GPU as some have thought? I really want to get this fixed but this is beyond my expertise unfortunately, so I'm more than open to more suggestions.

[Asmodian]

I tried disabling the other displays and leaving only my TV connected to my PC. I still couldn't use D3D11. The same stuttering happened again as before. So it isn't about the other two displays. At least it shouldn't be, right?

Did you reboot?

There are also users with stutter and only one display. There seem to be multiple possible causes. :(

Any other ideas? I would love to get this fixed. Do you still think the problem is related to Windows or could it be my GPU as some have thought? I really want to get this fixed but this is beyond my expertise unfortunately, so I'm more than open to more suggestions.

I am starting to get in the territory of random ideas rather than things that make a lot of sense. My 2080 Ti is fine but others are not.

Other power options? Is your CPU downclocking? Driver reinstalls?

Sorry, I will post if I think of anything or see any good ideas somewhere else. :o

edit: An older issue is the new Windows 10 feature Focus Assist, you need to disable everything associated with it, even the Automatic rules for turning it off in some situations and the "Show me a summary of what I missed while focus assist was on" option (?!?). f.lux and similar programs cause problems as well.

[ThunderFi]

Did you reboot?

There are also users with stutter and only one display. There seem to be multiple possible causes. :(



I am starting to get in the territory of random ideas rather than things that make a lot of sense. My 2080 Ti is fine but others are not.

Other power options? Is your CPU downclocking? Driver reinstalls?

Sorry, I will post if I think of anything or see any good ideas somewhere else. :o

edit: An older issue is the new Windows 10 feature Focus Assist, you need to disable everything associated with it, even the Automatic rules for turning it off in some situations and the "Show me a summary of what I missed while focus assist was on" option (?!?). f.lux and similar programs cause problems as well.

I didn't reboot when I first tried disabling the other displays but now I did just that, it didn't help. The only way to get stutter free playback even with just TV connect was to disable D3D11 and enable windowed overlay.

I understand, I appreciate even the random ideas!

Are you saying that there are people with the same 2080 Ti model that you have that are experiencing the same issues as me? Did you win some sort of lottery to get a perfect specimen? :D

My CPU native core clock is 4,2 GHz. I have turbo mode enabled from BIOS that overclocks it to 4,5 GHz automatically. I also have an XMP profile enabled. My GPU has an +85 MHz core overclock and +700 MHz memory overclock. These should stable overclocks, I've done a number of benchmarks with them (I have also tried without overclocks and even underclocking my GPU, didn't help with the stuttering). My CPU never goes below 4,2 GHz but the clocks do vary in the range of 4,2 GHz - 4,5 GHz. In NVIDIA CP I have set MPC-HC to use maximun performance. In BIOS I have selected the Asus optimal performance mode which should disable every power saving feature, at least most of it. I think I have manually disabled some power saving features from BIOS.

I also disabled everything related to the focus assistant, that didn't help either.

EDIT: Again got the playback to be smooth somehow, no stutters. After a restart it was back to stuttering. I just don't understand what's going on.

[ThunderFi]

An update

As of right now everything seems to be working as it's supposed to but I'm still afraid that the stuttering might come back.

I went through "everything" in Windows that came to mind and I also checked my BIOS settings just in case. Nothing helped there.

Then late last night I thought "Hmm, when was the last time I installed Windows updates?" Well well, the newest Windows version (1903) was available for download. Somehow I hadn't downloaded it before (probably because I had automatic updates disabled). There were quite a bit of other updates as well. After installing everything there was to install and triple checking that there wasn't anything more it would seem that the video stuttering got fixed, at least partially. After installing the updates and restarting I managed to get my video playback working smoothly if I enable FSE. That was with D3D11 this time. I restarted once again and it still worked but with only FSE. Without it or with windowed overlay the stuttering issue persists.

I will see if the issue comes back later but right now everything seems to be okay. I can live with having to use FSE if that means that I can use D3D11 and there's no stuttering.

To be honest I'm afraid to try to create a custom resolution with CRU. Right now that it seems to be working I'm afraid to touch anything :D But I might be celebrating too soon, the stuttering might come back. I will report here what happens later.

EDIT: After a third restart the video playback still works without stuttering while D3D11 and FSE are enabled. So far so good!

[VBB]

Good to hear! How do you like your C8 in general? Any issues with motion, banding, etc? Do you use Real Cinema/TruMotion at all?

[ThunderFi]

Good to hear! How do you like your C8 in general? Any issues with motion, banding, etc? Do you use Real Cinema/TruMotion at all?

I love almost all of it, though if I had known that I can't get chroma 4:4:4 without color banding I might have went with some other brand, maybe. To be honest I didn't know much about these things before I bought the TV so it might have not helped haha. But I still think I prefer the PC mode with 10 bit color, the picture is so much more sharper than in the regular HDMI mode. I might compare them again but the picture looks so nice with PC mode and 10 bit color that I might just try to cope with the banding.

I don't think I have any issues with motion. Since I know and see that the 24p judder is much more noticeable with OLEDS because of the almost instant pixel response time, I don't think there's any other "problems". It also might be that I wouldn't know where to compare it to you know, even if there were some problems.

I usually let real cinema be where it's at by default since in most of the picture modes I use it's grayed out and I don't feel the need to try and glitch it out to change it.

[chros]

After a third restart the video playback still works without stuttering while D3D11 and FSE are enabled. So far so good!
Glad to hear it! Strange combination of OS, GPU, driver. Just forbid the windows update :)

What frame repeat value do you get now on MadVR OSD? 12 mins?
I think you can apply the previously noted values in CRU: it shouldn't affect your system.

I don't think I have any issues with motion. Since I know and see that the 24p judder is much more noticeable with OLEDS because of the almost instant pixel response time
It's not judder (https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p) but stutter (https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/stutter).
I don't have any issues with it either: even slow panning shots are smooth, although faster ones are not.

[ThunderFi]

Glad to hear it! Strange combination of OS, GPU, driver. Just forbid the windows update :)

What frame repeat value do you get now on MadVR OSD? 12 mins?
I think you can apply the previously noted values in CRU: it shouldn't affect your system.


It's not judder (https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p) but stutter (https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/stutter).
I don't have any issues with it either: even slow panning shots are smooth, although faster ones are not.

Indeed! Very weird for sure.

Right now I'm getting 1 frame repeat in every ~6 minutes or so. I know that's far from optimal. I'm kind of wary to try the CRU again. I feel like it did something to the EDID info of my TV since it messed up the madVR identification. I also feel like the picture itself changed when I used CRU, it didn't just get smoother but gamma seemed to change or something like that. I might try to do the optimization process again and then CRU, maybe.

Thanks for the info!

Just to be sure, if I'm going to do the optimization again, do I choose the EDID option like so in the picture? Then I test it, then restart my PC. Then do the optimization for 30 minutes. Then after that take a screencap of the optimized settings. After that I delete the custom timings and restart my PC. Then I go into CRU and input the optimized settings entirely to CRU in the DisplayID block and then restart, and that should be it, right? I want to be very sure this time that I do everything right.
https://imgur.com/a/VY7y0w0

[Asmodian]

But I still think I prefer the PC mode with 10 bit color, the picture is so much more sharper than in the regular HDMI mode.

I seriously doubt using 10 bit color has any impact on the apparent sharpness. I think it is placebo. The only difference when using 10 bit is slightly less dithering noise in madVR's output, and whatever processing differences the TV has (LG seems to handle 10 bit input worse too). This is only for madVR, things with worse/no dithering do want 10 bit a lot. Testing madVR's dithering at different output bitdepths can be enlightening, try comparing 8 bit to 6 or 7 bit. Remember that the difference between 8 and 10 bit is less significant than the difference between 7 and 8 bit.

If you are new I totally sympathise with trying to get 10 bit with all your might. It took me years to stop chasing 10 bit out of madVR. However, if you get a friend to randomly change between 10 bit and 8 bit, with all other settings the same, you are very unlikely to do better than 50:50 trying to guess which mode it is in. There are displays where this is not true but LG's C7/C8/C9 are not them. Actually, on the C7 at least, this was not true; you could notice the extra banding with 10 bit input on the C7. This was fixed on the C9 but with LG's OLEDs 10 bit RGB/4:4:4 input is the same quality as 8 bit, at best. I have never had a C8 but I do not think it handles 10 bit input particularly well, certainly not when in PC mode, since the C7 was terrible and the C9 is basically the same as 8 bit. :p

8 bit 4:4:4 is much higher quality than 10/12 bit 4:2:2 as well, so I really see no point in using 10 bit input with LG's OLEDs from the last few years. (again, speaking only of madVR, but pretty much everything else in Windows is 8 bit only anyway...)

[VBB]

As, he is talking about how much sharper the picture is in PC mode, specifically, due to 4:4:4, not 10-bit. I couldn't really notice that either. At least not when watching content.

[Asmodian]

Sorry, I was simply ranting about the fixation on 10 bit again. :o

He said 4:4:4 and 10 bit. I was trying to say 4:4:4 8 bit is just as good, if not better. :)

I do notice the improvement from not subsampling the chroma so I always use PC mode myself.

[VBB]

I'm with you 100% on the 10-bit vs. 8-bit. So you just live with the added banding in PC mode vs. normal mode? Is it not as bad on the newer models? On my C7 there is a huge difference. It's basically smooth in normal mode and heavily banded in PC mode. I will admit, though, that I noticed this mainly when using banding test videos.

[Asmodian]

I notice a huge difference in banding with full range RGB input between PC mode and HDMI mode. I would rather have the banding than subsampled chroma, but I use the display for a lot more than watching 4:2:0 compressed video.

If I use YCbCr444 limited range input I get basically the same banding as when using HDMI mode, but while in PC mode with 4:4:4 chroma. This has the GPU converting madVR's output but it seems to do a better job than the display does, which probably works in limited range YCbCr internally somewhere given the banding differences. This seems like the best compromise I can get. I cannot stand subsampled chroma but the banding is still pretty bad with raw 8 bit RGB input on the C9. :(

Edit:
In this exact mode, Nvidia YCbCr444 limited + C9 PC Mode, I still get more banding when using 10 bit instead of 8 bit from madVR (12 bit in Nvidia CP for both). I can simply right click to bring up a menu, which kicks madVR out of 10 bit, and noticeable banding in my 16 bit test gradient virtually disappears.

Not as bad as what I remember on my C7 but I still cannot recommend 10 bit input on the C9 in PC mode. :mad:

[ThunderFi]

I seriously doubt using 10 bit color has any impact on the apparent sharpness. I think it is placebo. The only difference when using 10 bit is slightly less dithering noise in madVR's output, and whatever processing differences the TV has (LG seems to handle 10 bit input worse too). This is only for madVR, things with worse/no dithering do want 10 bit a lot. Testing madVR's dithering at different output bitdepths can be enlightening, try comparing 8 bit to 6 or 7 bit. Remember that the difference between 8 and 10 bit is less significant than the difference between 7 and 8 bit.

If you are new I totally sympathise with trying to get 10 bit with all your might. It took me years to stop chasing 10 bit out of madVR. However, if you get a friend to randomly change between 10 bit and 8 bit, with all other settings the same, you are very unlikely to do better than 50:50 trying to guess which mode it is in. There are displays where this is not true but LG's C7/C8/C9 are not them. Actually, on the C7 at least, this was not true; you could notice the extra banding with 10 bit input on the C7. This was fixed on the C9 but with LG's OLEDs 10 bit RGB/4:4:4 input is the same quality as 8 bit, at best. I have never had a C8 but I do not think it handles 10 bit input particularly well, certainly not when in PC mode, since the C7 was terrible and the C9 is basically the same as 8 bit. :p

8 bit 4:4:4 is much higher quality than 10/12 bit 4:2:2 as well, so I really see no point in using 10 bit input with LG's OLEDs from the last few years. (again, speaking only of madVR, but pretty much everything else in Windows is 8 bit only anyway...)

Yeah I was referring to the 4:4:4 instead of 10 bit but I understand why my post could be a bit misleading. Though I think I see a difference between 8 bit and 10 bit in the colors but it might be placebo. I will have to do some further testing. Anyways, PC mode results in the sharpest image so I think I'll just have to deal with the banding. But I will try 8 bit again. It's such a shame that you can't get banding free chroma 4:4:4. What is the reason for that anyway?

EDIT 1: And also, I am quite new to all of this. So a lot of growing pains in a way I guess.
EDIT 2: Do you think there's no difference in the colors when comparing 8 bit and 10 bit? Something I should have mentioned before is I'm talking about 10 bit HDR content specifically. I'm not saying you're wrong since I have not done enough tests about this. I just wonder, shouldn't 10 bit just look better when talking about colors? More shades displayed?

[huhn]

higher bit deep only lowers the noise floor.
in video encoding is increases quality preventing artifacts.
in processing it avoids artefacts.
and in proper presentation it only lower the noise floor nothing else.
and we are talking about dither noise.

the color it self is "not" different.

[ThunderFi]

higher bit deep only lowers the noise floor.
in video encoding is increases quality preventing artifacts.
in processing it avoids artefacts.
and in proper presentation it only lower the noise floor nothing else.
and we are talking about dither noise.

the color it self is "not" different.

Is this really the case? It doesn't affect colors? Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't 8 bit produce 16.7 million colors and 10 bit produces 1.07 billion colors? If the display has a native 10 bit panel and the media being played is in 10 bit as well, then wouldn't it look better to watch it in 10 bit? More colors than 8 bit? How is this not the case?

[huhn]

because 8 bit 100 % is the same color as 10 bit 100 %.

the different is noise.

[ThunderFi]

because 8 bit 100 % is the same color as 10 bit 100 %.

the different is noise.

What? Really? I just don't seem to understand. How can 16.7 million colors and 1.07 billion colors be the same? Like, I understand if I'm watching 8 bit content then I wouldn't gain anything from using 10 bit. But when I'm watching 10 bit content wouldn't it then be better than 8 bit, because it shows all of the intended colors?

Also, about CRU custom timings. I did the whole optimization process and these were the numbers I got from madVR: https://imgur.com/a/DSUPeV8

With those settings madVR reported no expected frame drops or repeats in the optimization tab. I'm very happy with the result smoothness wise. But one thing I noticed is that indeed my picture seems to be a bit darker right now. In a way I think it looks more natural, like that's the way it's supposed to look. Though still I'm thinking what if this is not how it's supposed to look. Are the custom timings supposed to affect the picture itself so that it seems darker or less bright, however you want to say it?

Once more madVR has now two identifications for my TV and the one that's active (not grayed out) doesn't show any info about HDR and color gamuts, among other things. I may be a bit neurotic but this bothers me. If someone can tell me with certainty that it doesn't matter, then I would be fine :D Does using CRU mess with the displays EDID or something and that's why madVR shows the identification info wrong? Or could the custom timings really mess something up and now my picture isn't what it's supposed to be?

[ThunderFi]

An update again.

So, I reset my CRU settings and restarted my PC. I really felt like the picture was darker with the custom timings, too dark maybe even. I wanted to be sure and compare. Well, after reverting back to default settings and restarting I'm back with the same original problem :scared: The video playback is stuttering, it's unwatchable. Restart doesn't help. The only way to have no stuttering is to not use D3D11 and enable windowed overlay.

Apparently the CRU custom timings did something that caused the problem to come back. The playback was smooth before CRU and it was smooth after I created custom timings. But after resetting to default timings the problem came back. Logically it would seem that indeed CRU did something but how is that possible? I reset everything back to default and default worked well before I went and created custom timings in CRU.

This is so frustrating.

[Asmodian]

I don't see how custom timings would cause the image to get darker?!

Just use Windowed overlay, 8 bit is probably better quality than 10 bit on your display anyway. :p

What? Really? I just don't seem to understand. How can 16.7 million colors and 1.07 billion colors be the same?

Dithering! Also every LG OLED I have seen has -more- banding with 10 bit input, not less. These OLEDs cannot actually show 1.07 billion different colors, not even close.

[ThunderFi]

I don't see how custom timings would cause the image to get darker?!

Just use Windowed overlay, 8 bit is probably better quality than 10 bit on your display anyway. :p



Dithering! Also every LG OLED I have seen has -more- banding with 10 bit input, not less. These OLEDs cannot actually show 1.07 billion different colors, not even close.

I don't understand it either. This is just a guess but since madVR sees a weird identification for my TV after setting custom timings maybe some info changes in my GPU that is not supposed to be changed? Or in Windows?

Anyway, the stuttering is apparent with every kind of video media and it's the same when trying out VLC. This is far from "normal behavior" and somehow I have to find a fix to this. I just don't know what to do any more. I wouldn't think it's a hardware issue but I guess anything is possible at this point. Again, suggestions are welcome.

Yes I also know that there is more banding in 10 bit compared to 8 bit even though there shouldn't be, right? Maybe it's placebo but I think the colors look better in 10 bit compared to 8 bit. I'll have to compare some more for sure but first I want to get this stuttering issue fixed. Once it's fixed I'm not going to use CRU any more. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like it did something that caused this. If the problem returned after resetting CRU to defaults and restarting my PC.

[Asmodian]

I have seriously messed up my displays with CRU in the past, I was never quite sure what happened. Reinstalling Windows fixed it. :o

I used it successfully after that but I don't use it today.

My condolences and Good Luck. I suggest Windows patches and messing with drivers. :(

[ThunderFi]

I have seriously messed up my displays with CRU in the past, I was never quite sure what happened. Reinstalling Windows fixed it. :o

I used it successfully after that but I don't use it today.

My condolences and Good Luck. I suggest Windows patches and messing with drivers. :(

Oh really? You didn't find any easier fix other than reinstalling the whole OS? :( What kind of problems did CRU create for your display back then?

Thanks!

I wanted to return to the 8 bit vs 10 bit discussion. I was so confused by everything people said to me here that I wanted to see for myself. I set my TV's refresh rate to 23 Hz and chose 12 bit RGB full range. Then I downloaded a couple 8 bit/10 bit test patterns and tried them out. First I tried them on my main PC monitor, which is an Asus ROG PG279Q IPS display. The Asus has a native bit depth of 8 bits. While watching the test pattern (there were like two boxes side by side that had grey color gradients inside, the other was 8 bit and the other was 10 bit) I saw that on the Asus the both boxes looked the same. To me that was to be expected, the display can't display 10 bit so then both 8 bit and 10 bit should look the same, correct? Anyway, the gradients were extremely smooth, I couldn't see any clear lines. Then I did the same test on my TV. Both of the boxes looked exactly the same but the worst thing was that I could see clear lines in the gradients, it was the same for both of the boxes. It was also the same with 8 bit and 12 bit selected from NVIDIA CP. How is that even possible? The LG C8 should have a 10 bit panel but it can't display 10 bit? What, how? What???

So indeed it seems that you guys were right, 10 bit doesn't seem to do anything on the TV. I just don't understand how that's possible if it has a native 10 bit panel. And also, how can the 8 bit test pattern look worse on the TV than on the Asus display?

One more thing. Doesn't HDR need 10 bit to be actually HDR or have I understood something wrong? I always thought that HDR = 10 bit color.

[Asmodian]

That is the banding we are talking about.
I am not sure what is "native 10 bit" about these LG OLEDs but the internal processing in PC mode is pretty bad. Test again in HDMI mode.

Sorry, I don't actually remember exactly what went wrong with CRU, it was many years ago now. :o

[VBB]

Thunder, about those test patterns: I'm guessing you used the Spears & Munsil 2160p quantization test, the one with the 8-bit and 10-bit rotating gray ramps. Coincidentally, I checked that one last night on my C7, but only in normal HDMI mode and only in 8-bit. My observation was that the 8-bit ramp on the left showed lines and the 10-bit ramp did not. And that is how it's supposed to look. The fact that the 10-bit ramp was smooth is due to madVR's dithering. If both boxes look smooth, then most likely you have debanding checked in madVR.

And no, HDR does not need 10-bit, even though it is always encoded in 10-bit, if that makes sense. You need to let go of the "10-bit shows more colors" thinking. Color bit depth is about shades of colors, which dithering takes care of at lower bit depths.

[Asmodian]

That test pattern does not test what we think it does. It is not useful for testing banding between 8 and 10 bit inputs on the display, banding is intentionally encoded into both gradients to show how 10 bit is better. If you want to use it for testing banding caused by the TV only look at the 10 bit region and change madVR's or the GPU's output between 8 and 10 bit.

I like those 16 bit gradients with madVR's dithering enabled. They should look totally smooth even on very high contrast displays but LG's OLEDs really mess them up in PC mode, unless sending YCbCr limited range. Even that is not quite as good as when in HDMI mode. :(

gradient-perceptual-v2.1_24fps.mkv (http://www.mediafire.com/file/z1f4ahg3784lfwz/gradient-perceptual-v2.1_24fps.mkv/file)
gradient-perceptual-colored-v2.1_24fps.mkv (http://www.mediafire.com/file/4dia3lixs0n9xyo/gradient-perceptual-colored-v2.1_24fps.mkv/file)

Edit:
And no, HDR does not need 10-bit, even though it is always encoded in 10-bit, if that makes sense. You need to let go of the "10-bit shows more colors" thinking. Color bit depth is about shades of colors, which dithering takes care of at lower bit depths.

To expand on this more; it isn't that 10 bit can show a color 8 bit cannot, it is that the rounding errors caused by using integer values for colors results in more similar shades so we do not notice the difference between them. We can handle rounding errors with dithering instead when we can set precise color values for every pixel (e.g. no lossy compression like bluray, streaming, cellphone video, etc. all have).

[ThunderFi]

That is the banding we are talking about.
I am not sure what is "native 10 bit" about these LG OLEDs but the internal processing in PC mode is pretty bad. Test again in HDMI mode.

Sorry, I don't actually remember exactly what went wrong with CRU, it was many years ago now. :o

On LG's own website in LG C8 technical information it shows "One billion colors" = "Yes". The text is probably something different in English, I did a quick translation from my native language and I couldn't get into the English version of their site apparently (that's also why I can't link it, just search the C8 on their website and go into the technical specs section). Wouldn't "one billion colors" need 10 bit to be true? I actually tested in HDMI mode. The 8 bit lines were much more clear but I still could still see some lines in the 10 bit version. Should it be completely smooth? I disabled banding reduction from madVR before testing that again.

I see, no problem.

Thunder, about those test patterns: I'm guessing you used the Spears & Munsil 2160p quantization test, the one with the 8-bit and 10-bit rotating gray ramps. Coincidentally, I checked that one last night on my C7, but only in normal HDMI mode and only in 8-bit. My observation was that the 8-bit ramp on the left showed lines and the 10-bit ramp did not. And that is how it's supposed to look. The fact that the 10-bit ramp was smooth is due to madVR's dithering. If both boxes look smooth, then most likely you have debanding checked in madVR.

And no, HDR does not need 10-bit, even though it is always encoded in 10-bit, if that makes sense. You need to let go of the "10-bit shows more colors" thinking. Color bit depth is about shades of colors, which dithering takes care of at lower bit depths.

Haha that's exactly what I used. I did the test again in 8 bit mode and yes, the 8 bit box showed much more clear lines but I still could see lines even in the 10 bit box, they weren't just as visible. Is the 10 bit box supposed to be completely smooth? Because on my end it isn't :o

I just don't understand why it doesn't need it. Don't I lose color accuracy or some shades if I don't use 10 bit? Or is the movie bit depth really 8 bit but it's encoded as 10 bit? Or what's going on? Sorry for you guys having to really explain this to me for me to understand.

Back to the stuttering issue. I have now DDU'd my GPU drivers and installed the newest ones. I have deleted my TV from my PC and restarted my PC, letting it find it again basically. Nothing works. I can't get stutter free playback with MPC-HC or with VLC, unless in madVR I disable D3D11 and enable windowed overlay. There's no stuttering on either of my other displays even with D3D11 and no windowed overlay, only on my TV. This is so frustrating and at this point I'm out of ideas. Do I have a faulty OS, GPU or TV? Any suggestions on how to test that?

EDIT 1: Fixed typos and added missing stuff that came to my mind just after I send the post.

EDIT 2: Thanks Asmodian for the clarification. I think it now makes sense to me, at least more than before :D

EDIT 3: Also here it shows that C8 has 10 bit color depth: https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/picture-quality/gradient

EDIT 4: One question that came to my mind is what about MPC-HC dithering? There's no option to disable it, only random or ordered dithering? Should I somehow disable that because I have dithering enabled in madVR?

EDIT 5: Sorry for so many edits, it's late here and I'm getting tired so my train of thought is not great. Anyway, I just wanted to say that I feel like my stuttering video issue is because of something really simple and stupid, I don't know. I might be completely wrong but that's just a hunch.

[VBB]

That test pattern does not test what we think it does. It is not useful for testing banding between 8 and 10 bit inputs on the display, banding is intentionally encoded into both gradients to show how 10 bit is better.

I get that, but I wasn't testing between 8 and 10-bit. The last time I bothered with 10-bit was when I first got the OLED two years ago :). Last night, I simply wanted to see how that pattern looked with and without madVR's debanding, which I normally keep on low/low. So with it on low/low, the pattern is smooth for both the 8-bit and the 10-bit side, which makes sense, because the debanding is doing its job on the intentionally encoded banding. With debanding off, you can see the steps on the 8-bit side. My point, though, is that in normal HDMI mode and with an 8-bit RGB chain, there is no visible banding caused by the TV itself. In fact (and this could be placebo as well), this is the cleanest picture I've ever gotten out of this C7.

[VBB]

Thunder, the "one billion colors" is display marketing. Always has been. For your particular situation, you should use windowed overlay with all 8-bit. There is zero harm in doing this, and it'll fix your stuttering at least temporarily. You can still use PC mode, if you really want to. On the C8 and C9, you're not locked out of HDR Dynamic Tone Mapping, unlike on the C7.

MPC-HC is just the player. It doesn't do dithering. Sounds like you looked at the built-in LAV Filters settings, which have dithering options, just like madVR. MadVR takes precedence over those, though. You can leave all those LAV settings at default, except the one in the upper right-hand corner for the hardware decoding. If you haven't done so, set that to D3D11 and "automatic".

[huhn]

rtings "bit deep" test is fundamental flawed every TV that supports 10 bit input is a 10 bit screen in there eyes they never rated a TV as BAD in this case even if they totally fail at there test.

they call this 10 bit: https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/lg/um7300/um7300-gradient-large.jpg
how hard do you have to fail a banding test if this is not enough is not hard enough...

we still don't know if they even send a dithered image to the screen because you have to do that to really see the performance of the screen an none dithered 10 bit image has for more banding then a dithered 6 bit image.

and about spec written somewhere. who cares about a number they found a 10 bit panel does nothing for you if you fail at basic processing.
even a 6 bit panel will not produce banding if the processing is correct.

EDIT 4: One question that came to my mind is what about MPC-HC dithering? There's no option to disable it, only random or ordered dithering? Should I somehow disable that because I have dithering enabled in madVR?

default settings are default for a reason if you would read the line a top you would notice that it doesn't do anything with madVR.

the 8 bit test you are not even sharing sounds so bad executed that i can not help it to already read about the flaws in it.
use this http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-patterns/Gradient-16bit.png

you need to understand the different between YCbCr and RGB and how this conversation is done

[ThunderFi]

Thunder, the "one billion colors" is display marketing. Always has been. For your particular situation, you should use windowed overlay with all 8-bit. There is zero harm in doing this, and it'll fix your stuttering at least temporarily. You can still use PC mode, if you really want to. On the C8 and C9, you're not locked out of HDR Dynamic Tone Mapping, unlike on the C7.

MPC-HC is just the player. It doesn't do dithering. Sounds like you looked at the built-in LAV Filters settings, which have dithering options, just like madVR. MadVR takes precedence over those, though. You can leave all those LAV settings at default, except the one in the upper right-hand corner for the hardware decoding. If you haven't done so, set that to D3D11 and "automatic".

I should have expected as much I guess. Yes that is what I am using for now, though I still want to get to the bottom of this issue.

This is the settings page in MPC-HC that I'm talking about: https://imgur.com/a/NKmKPTb

Good to know that madVR takes precedence over those. Something I realized just now (even though I've been to that settings page countless times) is that it shows that active decoder is 'inactive' and that active hardware accelerator is 'none'. Also, the drop down menu that currently shows DXVA2 (copy-back) has no D3D11 option, should it? The listed options are: None, NVIDIA CUVID, Intel QuickSync, DXVA2 native and DXVA2 (copy-back). Should there be a D3D11 option or are you talking about a different settings page? Am I missing D3D11 completely???

[VBB]

huhn, you grumpy, old, German bastard :D (I can say that, because I am exactly that myself)

There really is no conclusive test for 10-bit. I came to that realization years ago, when we first started that thread here on doom9. Dithering will always throw things off. People won't stop trying, though.

[ThunderFi]

rtings "bit deep" test is fundamental flawed every TV that supports 10 bit input is a 10 bit screen in there eyes they never rated a TV as BAD in this case even if they totally fail at there test.

they call this 10 bit: https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/lg/um7300/um7300-gradient-large.jpg
how hard do you have to fail a banding test if this is not enough is not hard enough...

we still don't know if they even send a dithered image to the screen because you have to do that to really see the performance of the screen an none dithered 10 bit image has for more banding then a dithered 6 bit image.

and about spec written somewhere. who cares about a number they found a 10 bit panel does nothing for you if you fail at basic processing.
even a 6 bit panel will not produce banding if the processing is correct.



default settings are default for a reason if you would read the line a top you would notice that it doesn't do anything with madVR.

the 8 bit test you are not even sharing sounds so bad executed that i can not help it to already read about the flaws in it.
use this http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-patterns/Gradient-16bit.png

you need to understand the different between YCbCr and RGB and how this conversation is done

Hmm, good to know then. I always thought RTINGS was a trustworthy site, but I guess not?

All of this is new info to me. I've always thought that basically more bits would mean better colors. A learning experience for sure!

The test I'm talking about is the Spears & Munsil 2160p quantization test: I don't want to link it because it was posted to another forum with permission from the creator. Don't know if it's cool to link it without permission.

I'll test with that later, thanks!

I have to understand quite a bit still apparently!

[VBB]

Thunder, now we're getting somewhere! Your version of LAV Filters is super-outdated, and therefore probably also your MPC-HC. Get the latest MPC-HC 1.8.7, which also has some of the latest LAV Filters built-in. Then set to D3D11 and try again.

[VBB]

I'd certainly call RTINGS trustworthy, and they do some of the most detailed testing, but still they don't scrutinize enough. Not the way that some of us here would do.

[ThunderFi]

Thunder, now we're getting somewhere! Your version of LAV Filters is super-outdated, and therefore probably also your MPC-HC. Get the latest MPC-HC 1.8.7, which also has some of the latest LAV Filters built-in. Then set to D3D11 and try again.

I didn't even know that there were newer versions since I trusted the official site. Should have known someone would continue their work and release updates. I downloaded the newest version and selected D3D11 from the drop down menu. Unfortunately this didn't fix the problem I'm having. The only way to get stutter free playback is to disable D3D11 from madVR and enable windowed overlay. Something I did notice however is that even with D3D11 enabled from madVR the playback is smooth UNTIL I put MPC-HC into fullscreen. When it's windowed there's no stuttering but once it's fullscreen it's back to stutter town :(