madVR with LG OLED C8 [Archive]

ThunderFi

11th August 2019, 18:22

Hey all!

I'm new to this forum and new to all of this basically. I've been doing my best to find information on my own but I wanted to ask a couple of things here.

I'm using my LG C8 when I watch movies from my PC, usually 4K HDR movies. I'm using MPC-HC + madVR. I've read a lot about different options and algorithms and I feel like my setup is mostly good, but there are a couple of things I'm uncertain about. I'm using the correct HDMI cable as well.

It all began when I started noticing some really bad color banding in my 4K HDR movies. I started testing different things and trying to find information from the web. It would seem that the color banding is not that severe when I haven't chosen the PC mode from my TV. If the HDMI input is just 'HDMI' the banding is very small but I still see it certain scenes. The downside is that the picture seems to be less sharp when the HDMI input is not in PC mode. I have enabled HDMI ultra deep color.

In madVR I have selected my TV's native bitdepth as 10 bit (or higher) since the C8 has a 10 bit panel. I have checked with the debug console that the D3D11 fullscreen says 10 bit. My video card settings are at default, which means 8 bit RGB. I have an RTX 2080.

I have chosen the 'passthrough HDR to display' and 'send HDR metadata to the display' in madVR.

Here are the questions:

1. I know my TV's PC mode forces chroma sub sampling 4:4:4. Is this why movies in PC mode seem to be sharper? My 4K HDR movies are 4:2:0 so the 4:4:4 shouldn't come into play, right? Should I use PC mode or just the basic 'HDMI' or something else?

2. RGB output levels in madVR. This is something I just recently figured out to try. When I select TV levels (16-235) and from my TV select black level as low the picture seems to look much better than PC levels (0-255) with black level as high. With PC levels and black level low the picture is way too dark. The gamma setting on my TV is 2.2 and I have selected pure power curve 2.20 in madVR calibration settings. So the question would be, should I keep the TV levels in madVR or is there something weird in my setup? Which one should look better?

3. My TV is not properly calibrated because I don't own the necessary equipment and I haven't bought the services of a professional calibrator. I have tried a lot of different settings in my TV settings based on recommendations from RTINGS from example. Then I have done some tweaking based on what looks better to my eye. Anyway, I read somewhere that most modern TV's are calibrated to BT.2020 and that's why I should choose that in madVR's calibration settings? Or should I choose something else or disable calibration controls entirely?

4. HDR settings in madVR. Is it better to passthrough HDR to the display or should I be using pixel shader tone mapping or external 3DLUT tone mapping?

Like I said I'm still new to all of this. Hopefully someone can answer my questions, I would appreciate it a lot! :thanks:

chros

11th August 2019, 20:22

QBhd

11th August 2019, 22:28

chros… not sure what you are seeing or if the B8's older processor is to blame, but on my C8 RGB 4:4:4 is 100% perfect with any and all tests.

QB

https://0ebcrg.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mbmWOLffhshMIAPNfiOrnxUPaTq2EKVGMSYJ5raOfUsMMHgW9b2WiwzKw8nshICzI7wJ6VaCWAva8w1NnkNsw9uQn_TbcLG_oxfBUS1ZpGg9nlb4MlovLoaNanlDdONw2nybZY0JhlENrb1jyEvJElLxG1F6OC4tbQwoiu618ECDDzosRhi0UplRmSaTGmponpowiSwIepmUhkbvQsL9AQA?width=660&height=372&cropmode=none

Klaus1189

11th August 2019, 22:39

Do you really see horizontal red and blue lines in the 2s in 4:2:2? Your picture is to blurry.

Asmodian

12th August 2019, 00:02

I do on my C9. There is crosstalk or similar on LG OLEDs but I wouldn't characterize it as an issue with 4:4:4, simply pixel level panel artifacts that exist in various forms on all available screen techs.

huhn

12th August 2019, 00:24

there are some monitor with no issue with that but that's a far more advanced topic then 4:4:4.

Asmodian

12th August 2019, 01:54

I have never seen one that didn't do something odd with at least one test pattern that was designed to trigger crosstalk, but it is true that some are very very good. Much better than these OLEDs is common. These OLEDs take a decent amount of power, it is probably hard to electrically isolate every pixel from every other pixel.

huhn

12th August 2019, 02:19

WRGB doesn't make it easier.
it's really unimportant as long as it is not terrible for movies anyway.

this one does really really good: https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/lg/27uk650-w

chros

12th August 2019, 11:28

not sure what you are seeing or if the B8's older processor is to blame, but on my C8 RGB 4:4:4 is 100% perfect with any and all tests.
:) No, it isn't, that's what I thought at first as well. As @Asmodian said even C9 is the same, and C8/C7 also. (I was told that maybe 2016 models were different.)
Anyway, you haven't read the first section in the post I linked, have you? :) (And I linked a potential explanation for it as well.)
Just test with the mentioned image and you'll see what we mean.

QBhd

12th August 2019, 11:46

I read it and still can't see what the problem is supposed to be. Anyway, it is what it is.

I just realized that my post in the madVR thread earlier should be here. So I will add my request here as well (I know, bad forum etiquette):

I need a little help. I have a R9 270X that is still kicking (even after it died and I baked it in the oven to bring it back to life), It was more than enough when I had my 1024x768 rectangular pixel "720p" Plasma. When That TV died and I replaced it with a 55" LG C8, I tried playing 4k HDR though the PC, but it didn't work and I just chalked it up to a GPU with only 2GB RAM and HDMI 1.4 so since then I played the 4k HDR content using the TV's built in player.

But today I was farting around with a 4k HDR Blu-ray and it worked on the PC. I can even do HDR.... It took a little tweaking to work in super high bitrate scenes. I cranked CPU and GPU queues to the max (48/24) which makes no sense since queues that big make normal playback of 1080p or less a choppy mess, but the 4k HDR plays like silk (and turns into a choppy mess with 16/8 queue default queue depths) plus queues that big should cause serious RAM shortages shouldn't they? This card has just 2GB... it's odd, but I digress.

Now that I realize can "tone map HDR using pixel shaders", I am curious what should I set "target peak nits" to... I read the C8 can do 820 nits, but I don't have a meter to verify. I know there are a few C8 users here, just trying to pick your brains

QB

chros

12th August 2019, 12:06

I read it and still can't see what the problem is supposed to be. Anyway, it is what it is.
:D Take a good look at it (SDR or HDR10 mode, doesn't matter):
"this can be easily visible on the yellow and the bottom row text of Quick brown fox (http://www.ozone3d.net/public/jegx/201412/chroma-subsampling-test-4k-tv.png) image"

E.g. on the yellow text you'll see red pixels around the yellow ones.

QBhd

12th August 2019, 14:24

Okay.. I looked but didn't see anything odd last night... I'll check again when I get home from work, maybe your post should specify what to look for. Stating a test image failed is not enough when the failure is so hard to spot.

QB

ThunderFi

12th August 2019, 19:52

Hey, and welcome to doom9!

1. yes, that's why. 4:4:4 can be relevant, it's all up to you to decide, I personally like it and can live with hdr banding.
But it just recently turned out (at least for me) that it's not ture 4:4:4 (altough really close to it), see below.

2. 3. 4. read through this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) and all the provided links in it, after that you can ask :)

Enjoy!

Hey and thank you for your reply. How exactly does the 4:4:4 work when the movie itself is 4:2:0? This seems a bit confusing to me but what I suspected apparently is the case then.

I checked the post and read through it. Didn't go through all of the links yet though. A couple of things I want to ask about:

1. The RGB output levels. In the post you linked it was said that 0-255 should be selected from video card control panel. If this is the case, should I then also choose PC levels in madVR's RGB output settings?

2. Okay so I chose DCI-P3 in madVR calibration settings. I haven't created a 3DLUT and I haven't even really read about those yet. There's still so much for me to go through and understand.

3. The color gamut settings. In the post you linked it was said that 'wide' should be selected for SDR content. This contradicts so many other people that have said that 'auto' should be the best option.

QBhd

12th August 2019, 20:04

I would say no on the Wide for SDR. I think Extended is closer to what DCI-P3 uses. Color Bars with the Blue Filter get out of whack with wide + DCI-P3. Which to my understanding indicates over blown colors

QB

QBhd

13th August 2019, 03:58

@ chros:

So I just re-checked the Quick Brown Fox image... there is no red pixels around the yellow ones... And I think I just blinded myself a little bit since I got right up in there... I will say again, I'm not sure what your are seeing in these 4:4:4 tests. I should also repeat the fact that I have a C8 and it does have a different processor than the B8. And if it does in fact turn out to not be 100% perfect 4:4:4 then it's so damn close as to be perfect.

QB

chros

13th August 2019, 10:40

And if it does in fact turn out to not be 100% perfect 4:4:4 then it's so damn close as to be perfect.
Yes, it's pretty close to 4:4:4. There are some "crazy" people out there who pointed out this "problem" and I couldn't believe it either, but this is what it is :)

I would say no on the Wide for SDR. I think Extended is closer to what DCI-P3 uses.
Have you checked with a meter? :) I did.
And it's "known" out there that the Wide settings is the closest to the native DCPI-P3 gamut.

Hey and thank you for your reply. How exactly does the 4:4:4 work when the movie itself is 4:2:0? This seems a bit confusing to me
madVR has great chroma upscalers: they create 4:4:4 out of the 4:2:0.

1. The RGB output levels. In the post you linked it was said that 0-255 should be selected from video card control panel. If this is the case, should I then also choose PC levels in madVR's RGB output settings?
That's correct, thanks, I've updated my post with it.

2. Okay so I chose DCI-P3 in madVR calibration settings. I haven't created a 3DLUT and I haven't even really read about those yet.
That's a good starting point.

3. The color gamut settings. In the post you linked it was said that 'wide' should be selected for SDR content. This contradicts so many other people that have said that 'auto' should be the best option.
You are right but: those people don't use hardware/software (in our case madVR) that will do color gamut conversion on-the-fly if it's needed :)

QBhd

13th August 2019, 11:20

Just to clarify... those last 3 quotes were NOT quotes of mine :)

QB

chros

13th August 2019, 11:29

Just to clarify... those last 3 quotes were NOT quotes of mine :)
Oh, crap, corrected, thanks! :)

QBhd

13th August 2019, 11:49

@ThunderFi:

I have recently settled into disabled madVR calibration and the technicolor Expert setting for SDR content. I only change three settings OLED up to 56 since my room is not super dark, sharpness up to 20 since I read that is neutral for PC input... and Gamma to 2.2 (again room is not a dark cave). I still want to calibrate at some point, but for now with no gear this seems to be as good as it gets,

QB

ThunderFi

13th August 2019, 13:15

Yes, it's pretty close to 4:4:4. There are some "crazy" people out there who pointed out this "problem" and I couldn't believe it either, but this is what it is :)

Have you checked with a meter? :) I did.
And it's "known" out there that the Wide settings is the closest to the native DCPI-P3 gamut.

madVR has great chroma upscalers: they create 4:4:4 out of the 4:2:0.

That's correct, thanks, I've updated my post with it.

That's a good starting point.

You are right but: those people don't use hardware/software (in our case madVR) that will do color gamut conversion on-the-fly if it's needed :)

So, about the DCPI-P3 gamut. Should color gamut 'wide' be selected only for movies? As an example I've been playing Witcher 3 on my TV (the game is running on my PC) and I've noticed that I can't use the game mode because the colors are oversaturated. The game mode forces color gamut to the 'wide' option. I've been using the Expert Bright room/dark room settings when playing. I read somewhere that the input lag should be at least almost the same when I have not enabled any extra picture processing options.

About madVR chroma upscaling. Are you trying to tell me that if my TV is not using PC mode the maximum chroma of 4:2:2 restricts the upscaling of madVR? What I mean is that if my TV is not on PC mode I then madVR can't upscale the picture as good? If that makes sense.

Thanks, I'll change to the PC levels both in NVIDIA Control Panel and in madVR. In NVIDIA CP should I leave everything else at default? I read somewhere that I should leave it at 8 bit RGB full range and let applications do their thing in fullscreen when watching HDR?

Are you saying that because we use madVR the 'Wide' color gamut option for SDR content is just the best option? Why isn't 'Auto' a better option?

@ThunderFi:

I have recently settled into disabled madVR calibration and the technicolor Expert setting for SDR content. I only change three settings OLED up to 56 since my room is not super dark, sharpness up to 20 since I read that is neutral for PC input... and Gamma to 2.2 (again room is not a dark cave). I still want to calibrate at some point, but for now with no gear this seems to be as good as it gets,

QB

I see. I've been using the ISF expert dark room/bright room when watching SDR content. With HDR content I've been using the Cinema option. This is based on the recommendations of RTINGS. With SDR content I've also used OLED light 56 and sharpness 20 as well. I think it was RTINGS who claimed that sharpness 20 should be neutral when watched from PC. I also use gamma 2.2.

Do you prefer the technicolor expert over the ISF expert dark room/bright room?

QBhd

13th August 2019, 14:28

Yes. I too was using the ISF settings but then I tried technicolor after reading about something they accounted for that ISF did not... I have been trying to remember what it was, but I'm having a seniors moment. So I figured what the heck, I can always tow back to Isf. After trying technicolor, skin tones are vastly improved.

QB

chros

13th August 2019, 15:07

So, about the DCPI-P3 gamut. Should color gamut 'wide' be selected only for movies?
Yes, since madvr is only used that time.

About madVR chroma upscaling. Are you trying to tell me that if my TV is not using PC mode the maximum chroma of 4:2:2 restricts the upscaling of madVR?
That's correct: the TV will dumb down what madVR did.
This also mean, if you don't want to use PC mode, then you don't have to waste lot of GPU resources on chroma upscaling, you can just use Bicubic60+AR.

Thanks, I'll change to the PC levels both in NVIDIA Control Panel and in madVR. In NVIDIA CP should I leave everything else at default? I read somewhere that I should leave it at 8 bit RGB full range and let applications do their thing in fullscreen when watching HDR?
Yes, leave everything else at default.
If you set 8bit output in nvidia panel then (again) no need to select 10bit output in madvr. But that is your choice to make which one you like.

Are you saying that because we use madVR the 'Wide' color gamut option for SDR content is just the best option? Why isn't 'Auto' a better option?
Auto uses the smallest color gamut, that is BT.709. You can use that one if you like (also set in madvr then), I can think of 2 things:
- some SDR content may use DCI-P3 gamut (in this case madvr dumb it down)
- it can happen that the TV's bt709 gamut is smaller than the specification (we loose small amount)

Btw, Sharpness 20 is oversharpening in PC mode as well (maybe that was true with some earlier firmwares). 0 is the correct in both modes.

chros

13th August 2019, 17:03

Do you prefer the technicolor expert over the ISF expert dark room/bright room?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3043520-lg-oled-s-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread-10.html#post58376914

QBhd

13th August 2019, 17:35

That's what I read about.... Metameric stuff... After reading that, I gave technicolor a serious try and I have not gone back to Isf

Thanks for finding that chros, I would have found it at home since this phone is garbage and hard to do much with

QB

ThunderFi

13th August 2019, 19:09

Yes, since madvr is only used that time.

That's correct: the TV will dumb down what madVR did.
This also mean, if you don't want to use PC mode, then you don't have to waste lot of GPU resources on chroma upscaling, you can just use Bicubic60+AR.

Yes, leave everything else at default.
If you set 8bit output in nvidia panel then (again) no need to select 10bit output in madvr. But that is your choice to make which one you like.

Auto uses the smallest color gamut, that is BT.709. You can use that one if you like (also set in madvr then), I can think of 2 things:
- some SDR content may use DCI-P3 gamut (in this case madvr dumb it down)
- it can happen that the TV's bt709 gamut is smaller than the specification (we loose small amount)

Btw, Sharpness 20 is oversharpening in PC mode as well (maybe that was true with some earlier firmwares). 0 is the correct in both modes.

I see, that makes sense.

I was wondering, if I choose the default settings in NVIDIA CP and then choose 0-255 in madVR, would that be different to choosing 0-255 in NVIDIA CP and 0-255 in madVR? Also I can't choose 10 bit for RGB in NVIDIA CP, only 12 bit is possible but that's only available if the refresh rate is 30 Hz or lower. Also when I do select RGB 12 bit @30 Hz for example I notice video playback being choppy, it's not smooth. But with RGB 8 bit or with just default settings there's no choppiness. I've also noticed that using a refresh rate of 23 or 24 Hz makes the video playback choppy as well. This is the same with madVR's option to automatically change to the correct display mode. This is why I don't use it. I've found that changing my the refresh rate to 48 Hz makes 24 FPS video playback much more smoother. But for some reason 23/24 Hz causes choppiness. I've also tried smooth motion and I can't stand the artifacts it causes. Any ideas on how to get 23/24 Hz working without choppiness in video playback?

Also, here's something I wish to clarify to myself. If I use default color settings in NVIDIA CP and in madVR I choose the native bitdepth as 10 bit, then are HDR movies actually being displayed as 10 bit? Here's a link that shows my settings when watching a movie: https://imgur.com/a/R16gYBd

As you can see from the link, the display is 8 bit and the D3D11 fullscreen windowed is 10 bit. I don't use exclusive fullscreen, should I? From what I've understood it shouldn't matter what I've chosen in my video card settings/windows because the fullscreen application will be able to output the correct bitdepth? Or is this just a bunch of rubbish?

In MPC-HC I have DXVA2 native selected. I've tried to understand and see the difference between that and DXVA2 copy-back but the only difference I've been able to see is copy-back causing rendering times to be much slower. Is there a benefit to using DXVA2 copy-back instead of DXVA2 native? Just as a reminder, my GPU is RTX 2080 and my CPU is i7 - 7700k.

So the 'auto' option actually doesn't automatically choose the best option for the content being displayed? But okay, I will use 'wide' for SDR content. Should 'wide' be used for HDR as well, or is 'extended' or 'auto' better with HDR?

Are you certain that Sharpness 20 is oversharpening? I'll have to see how it looks with the value of 0. Personally I've been liking the sharpness with 20.

I think these are the last questions I have. Everything else I've managed to figure out one way or the other. I appreciate your help!

That's what I read about.... Metameric stuff... After reading that, I gave technicolor a serious try and I have not gone back to Isf

Thanks for finding that chros, I would have found it at home since this phone is garbage and hard to do much with

QB

I tried reading through the post and there's so much that I don't quite understand yet, or I'm just not familiar with. What are metameric stuff? Do you think the Technicolor mode should be used for HDR content as well, or just SDR? Like I mentioned before I've been using the Cinema option for HDR content.

chros

14th August 2019, 10:47

if I choose the default settings in NVIDIA CP and then choose 0-255 in madVR, would that be different to choosing 0-255 in NVIDIA CP and 0-255 in madVR?
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271416#post1271416

Also I can't choose 10 bit for RGB in NVIDIA CP, only 12 bit is possible but that's only available if the refresh rate is 30 Hz or lower.
That's correct, only 8bit or 12bit can be selected.
If you use older drivers (with older cards like Pascal), e.g. v385.28, it will auto selects 8bit when 60p content is played.

Any ideas on how to get 23/24 Hz working without choppiness in video playback?
This link (http://madvr.com/crt/CustomResTutorial.html) and this one (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998). In short: use CRU to set the values what madvr reported.

Also, here's something I wish to clarify to myself. If I use default color settings in NVIDIA CP and in madVR I choose the native bitdepth as 10 bit, then are HDR movies actually being displayed as 10 bit?
I don't know what is the default in nvidia panel, but whatever you set there that's the final stage. So, if 8bit is set in nvidia then the output is 8bit.

the display is 8 bit and the D3D11 fullscreen windowed is 10 bit. I don't use exclusive fullscreen, should I? From what I've understood it shouldn't matter what I've chosen in my video card settings/windows because the fullscreen application will be able to output the correct bitdepth?
Now you now the answer to the last question.
Window or fullscreen mode matters if you want to put out 10bit, and it depends on the OS you use:
- on Win8: only FSE can do 10bit
- on Win10 (1607 and later): FSE is faked (not real) and FSW can also do 10bit.

In MPC-HC I have DXVA2 native selected. I've tried to understand and see the difference between that and DXVA2 copy-back but the only difference I've been able to see is copy-back causing rendering times to be much slower. Is there a benefit to using DXVA2 copy-back instead of DXVA2 native? Just as a reminder, my GPU is RTX 2080 and my CPU is i7 - 7700k.
Yes, copy-back is the slowest (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1878815#post1878815).
It can be a benefit (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1867089#post1867089), it depends on your use-case, I use d3d11 native.

Should 'wide' be used for HDR as well, or is 'extended' or 'auto' better with HDR?
Same, wide.

Are you certain that Sharpness 20 is oversharpening? I'll have to see how it looks with the value of 0. Personally I've been liking the sharpness with 20.
I am, try it for yourself. But if you like it at 20 then leave it here :)

That's what I read about.... Metameric stuff... After reading that, I gave technicolor a serious try and I have not gone back to Isf

What are metameric stuff? Do you think the Technicolor mode should be used for HDR content as well, or just SDR? Like I mentioned before I've been using the Cinema option for HDR content.

From Ted:
"But these coordinates are not really working, because Technicolor tried to match a Xenon DCI Cinema Projector as reference (with DCI primaries and D65 White Point), so these coordinates are only helpful for those which are working in post-production and use LG OLED's as client view monitors, for the commercial cinema release of the movie.

For home video release of a movie, a projector as reference is never being used, only with monitors its been performed the mastering of SDR home release of the movies, so there no point for anyone to use a Technicolor custom White Point (for home viewing).

As usual with that recommendation, LG has confused once again the consumer world, it has done it at past many times, with various PDF's with calibration notes for HDR calibration which never worked "

What I think is that Technicolor mode should never be used :) (neither for SDR nor for HDR).
But these are not stone-carved things, if you like how a preset look like then use it: technicolor, standard, even vivid :D

ThunderFi

14th August 2019, 18:24

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271416#post1271416

That's correct, only 8bit or 12bit can be selected.
If you use older drivers (with older cards like Pascal), e.g. v385.28, it will auto selects 8bit when 60p content is played.

This link (http://madvr.com/crt/CustomResTutorial.html) and this one (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998). In short: use CRU to set the values what madvr reported.

I don't know what is the default in nvidia panel, but whatever you set there that's the final stage. So, if 8bit is set in nvidia then the output is 8bit.

Now you now the answer to the last question.
Window or fullscreen mode matters if you want to put out 10bit, and it depends on the OS you use:
- on Win8: only FSE can do 10bit
- on Win10 (1607 and later): FSE is faked (not real) and FSW can also do 10bit.

Yes, copy-back is the slowest (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1878815#post1878815).
It can be a benefit (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1867089#post1867089), it depends on your use-case, I use d3d11 native.

Same, wide.

I am, try it for yourself. But if you like it at 20 then leave it here :)

From Ted:
"But these coordinates are not really working, because Technicolor tried to match a Xenon DCI Cinema Projector as reference (with DCI primaries and D65 White Point), so these coordinates are only helpful for those which are working in post-production and use LG OLED's as client view monitors, for the commercial cinema release of the movie.

For home video release of a movie, a projector as reference is never being used, only with monitors its been performed the mastering of SDR home release of the movies, so there no point for anyone to use a Technicolor custom White Point (for home viewing).

As usual with that recommendation, LG has confused once again the consumer world, it has done it at past many times, with various PDF's with calibration notes for HDR calibration which never worked "

What I think is that Technicolor mode should never be used :) (neither for SDR nor for HDR).
But these are not stone-carved things, if you like how a preset look like then use it: technicolor, standard, even vivid :D

Thank you again for the amazing information!

A couple of things:

1. About the NVIDIA CP bit depth and fullscreen application's bitdepth:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/69dwco/a_4k_60_hz_hdr_question/

In the post they claim exactly what I've thought. "When you run a game in exclusive fullscreen mode with HDR it essentially takes control of the display so most of the time the output settings you've made in the NVIDIA control panel will be ignored. So, you should configure your resolution and colour format in NVCP as you'd like it to apply to your desktop and then use whatever options your exclusively fullscreen games expose to configure HDR." I know they use games as an example, but shouldn't it be the same for every fullscreen application?

2. I've been trying to get the custom resolution working. I dove into the links you posted and got to work. I've been spending many hours trying to get it to work properly without success. I went through the custom mode optimization in madVR. Then I took a screencap of the recommended settings and deleted the custom resolution. Then I created a custom resolution in CRU using the numbers I got from madVR. As you can see from this link:https://imgur.com/a/nqJIObv there should be no frame drops. That value changes a bit but it stays above 10 hours most often. Yet still the video playback is choppy, it's not smooth at all. How is that even possible?

This is maybe the last thing I need to figure out to be satisfied with my setup.

One more thing, do I need any extension blocks in CRU? I read that you used a DisplayID? What is that and do I need it? Currently the only extension block I have is CEA-861: 1 detailed resolution, 9 data blocks (HDMI 2.0) which was there by default.

EDIT: I'm not sure how but right now everything seems to be working fine. I enabled exclusive fullscreen mode in madVR and I'm getting buttery smooth playback with 12 bit RGB. There's 1 frame repeat at about 1-3 hours most of the time (the value changes quite a lot) but the playback is smooth. Is there some extra tweaking I should do?

ThunderFi

14th August 2019, 23:18

Okay so now I don't know what's going on. After restarting my computer the choppy playback is back. Everything looks good when checking the madVR debug console but the playback is just not smooth. Everything should be right, the custom resolution etc. Any ideas?

EDIT: Extra clarification, the frame repeat/drop rate is now 1 in every 45 minutes or so as well. I have the same settings that I had when I took the screencap that can be seen on the previous post. I tried with and without exclusive fullscreen. I also switched back to DXVA2 native because I tried the copy-back. None of these things helped.

chros

15th August 2019, 09:07

1. About the NVIDIA CP bit depth and fullscreen application's bitdepth:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/69dwco/a_4k_60_hz_hdr_question/
In the post they claim exactly what I've thought.
The guy used Win7 ! :)
Which Windows version do you use?

2. I've been trying to get the custom resolution working. I dove into the links you posted and got to work. I've been spending many hours trying to get it to work properly without success. I went through the custom mode optimization in madVR. Then I took a screencap of the recommended settings and deleted the custom resolution. Then I created a custom resolution in CRU using the numbers I got from madVR. As you can see from this link:https://imgur.com/a/nqJIObv there should be no frame drops. That value changes a bit but it stays above 10 hours most often. Yet still the video playback is choppy, it's not smooth at all. How is that even possible?
...
One more thing, do I need any extension blocks in CRU? I read that you used a DisplayID? What is that and do I need it? Currently the only extension block I have is CEA-861: 1 detailed resolution, 9 data blocks (HDMI 2.0) which was there by default.

That's why: "add DisplayID to Extension blocks and set it as the 1st entry" :)
- and set your custom madvr timings inside this DisplayID block

The difference between CRU and nvidia created (by madvr) custom timing is:
- nvidia adds a new one to the already existing ones: that can confuse applications which one to use (e.g. madvr)
- CRU replaces an existing one with the custom one on the OS level, so there won't be any confusion

One more note about when you create custom timings with madvr:
- always start from the default one (EDID) and pay special attention to the "sync" attributes (e.g. + , +):
-- don't select a mode that is different!
- don't deviate a lot from the default EDID values (I can post mine later just for you to see and compare)
- the above 2 wrong settings can easily modify the response of the panel! (e.g. modifying gamma curve, causing black crush, etc.)
- if you get >= 10 hours after the first optimisation then it's already really good, you don't need to do more runs

Last note: certain nvidia driver versions can block custom timings completely (doesn't matter how they were created), so always check in madvr OSD whether your timing is applied if you install a new driver. :)

ThunderFi

15th August 2019, 10:21

The guy used Win7 ! :)
Which Windows version do you use?

That's why: "add DisplayID to Extension blocks and set it as the 1st entry" :)
- and set your custom madvr timings inside this DisplayID block

The difference between CRU and nvidia created (by madvr) custom timing is:
- nvidia adds a new one to the already existing ones: that can confuse applications which one to use (e.g. madvr)
- CRU replaces an existing one with the custom one on the OS level, so there won't be any confusion

One more note about when you create custom timings with madvr:
- always start from the default one (EDID) and pay special attention to the "sync" attributes (e.g. + , +):
-- don't select a mode that is different!
- don't deviate a lot from the default EDID values (I can post mine later just for you to see and compare)
- the above 2 wrong settings can easily modify the response of the panel! (e.g. modifying gamma curve, causing black crush, etc.)
- if you get >= 10 hours after the first optimisation then it's already really good, you don't need to do more runs

Last note: certain nvidia driver versions can block custom timings completely (doesn't matter how they were created), so always check in madvr OSD whether your timing is applied if you install a new driver. :)

That's a good point. I use Windows 10 Home Edition 64bit.

I have to be honest, I don't know what you mean by adding DisplayID to the extension blocks. I checked the things I can add and there's nothing named "DisplayID". Am I missing something? Or maybe I'm just too new to all of this still.

That's good to know about NVIDIA and CRU custom resolutions, thanks!

I started with EDID from madVR, I tested it and it was accepted. Then I ran the optimization for about 30 minutes and got this: https://imgur.com/en7YtgN
Then I took a screenshot of those values that can be seen in the picture, deleted the custom resolution in madVR and created a new detailed resolution in CRU. Here's a picture of my CRU custom resolution: https://imgur.com/JlRVJrk

At least to my eye everything looks fine, right? Or am I just missing something? Thanks for helping me, I really appreciate it. This would be quite a lot to understand by myself so it's nice to have someone who's willing to help! :)

EDIT: So I thought it would be a good idea to start fresh again. I deleted the created custom resolution and installed the newest GPU drivers and rebooted my PC. Then I tried to do the same thing as before in madVR, I chose EDID, tested it, works, then let it optimize. After the optimization I got this https://imgur.com/a/5GUjI7Z

Now the front porch horizontal value is so big that I can't even create a custom resolution in CRU with that, it just doesn't allow me to do it. What is going on here?

chros

15th August 2019, 11:34

I have to be honest, I don't know what you mean by adding DisplayID to the extension blocks. I checked the things I can add and there's nothing named "DisplayID". Am I missing something? Or maybe I'm just too new to all of this still.
Exactly where you selected the extension block on the below image:
- if you push Add button, there has to be an option (out of 4?) called DisplayID (or can be selected from a Type dropdown?) (I can't open cru here now.)
- it's like on this image (https://i.redd.it/mnlkza88crs21.png) but move DisplayID above the other one (CEA-861 on the pic)

I started with EDID from madVR, I tested it and it was accepted. Then I ran the optimization for about 30 minutes and got this: https://imgur.com/en7YtgN
Then I took a screenshot of those values that can be seen in the picture, deleted the custom resolution in madVR and created a new detailed resolution in CRU. Here's a picture of my CRU custom resolution: https://imgur.com/JlRVJrk
At least to my eye everything looks fine, right?
Yes, looks good.
Btw, have you enabled "UHD Deep Color" in the TV? If not then you can start remeasuring the custom timing :)

Thanks for helping me, I really appreciate it. This would be quite a lot to understand by myself so it's nice to have someone who's willing to help! :)
No worries, it seems to be a simple stuff at first glance, but actually it's really complicated/confusing/etc :)
There are plenty of kind guys here at doom9, not just me :)

After the optimization I got this https://imgur.com/a/5GUjI7Z

Now the front porch horizontal value is so big that I can't even create a custom resolution in CRU with that, it just doesn't allow me to do it. What is going on here?
I don't know, but you have lot of other values to choose from, not to mention the one that you have already set before! :)

ThunderFi

15th August 2019, 13:20

Exactly where you selected the extension block on the below image:
- if you push Add button, there has to be an option (out of 4?) called DisplayID (or can be selected from a Type dropdown?) (I can't open cru here now.)
- it's like on this image (https://i.redd.it/mnlkza88crs21.png) but move DisplayID above the other one (CEA-861 on the pic)

Yes, looks good.
Btw, have you enabled "UHD Deep Color" in the TV? If not then you can start remeasuring the custom timing :)

No worries, it seems to be a simple stuff at first glance, but actually it's really complicated/confusing/etc :)
There are plenty of kind guys here at doom9, not just me :)

I don't know, but you have lot of other values to choose from, not to mention the one that you have already set before! :)

Thank you, I found the DisplayID. Should I add something to it or just leave it empty? Do I need to add the custom resolution there as well? I tried doing that and at first everything worked well. I created a custom resolution with the previous values that seemed good. What I mean is that I applied those to the DisplayID as well as to the detailed resolutions. It first seemed to work well, the playback was smooth. Then I restarted my PC and the playback was choppy again, without me changing any settings. I'll try a few things but I don't know what to do after that. Any ideas?

I have enabled the UHD Deep Color, HDR movies won't even work without it, they look very weird wihtout it and the TV gives an error message asking for me to enable it.

Very well said! :)

EDIT: I wanted to be sure that the timings are good, so I ran the optimization in madVR again using the same timings. This is the result: https://imgur.com/a/jZb8ZbD
Yet still when I delete that from madVR and add that into CRU to create a custom resolution the video playback is choppy. Am I missing something here?

chros

15th August 2019, 14:28

Thank you, I found the DisplayID. Should I add something to it or just leave it empty? Do I need to add the custom resolution there as well?
"and set your custom madvr timings inside this DisplayID block"
You only have to add the custom timing inside DisplayID block, nowhere else. If you already added somewhere then remove it.

Then I restarted my PC and the playback was choppy again, without me changing any settings.
After PC restart:
- run CRU and check whether your timing is still in the DisplayID block
- take a look at madVR OSD to double check that refresh rate of the display (top row) is correct

ThunderFi

15th August 2019, 15:08

"and set your custom madvr timings inside this DisplayID block"
You only have to add the custom timing inside DisplayID block, nowhere else. If you already added somewhere then remove it.

After PC restart:
- run CRU and check whether your timing is still in the DisplayID block
- take a look at madVR OSD to double check that refresh rate of the display (top row) is correct

I thought I tried that already but apparently I didn't... because IT WORKS!!! :thanks:

In CRU the only thing I have is the DisplayID and inside that I have the custom resolution with the correct timings. I also checked the "Native" box, should I uncheck that or leave it checked?

Just to be sure I restarted my PC a few times and between restarts I put on a 4K HDR movie just to be sure everything works fine. I also checked CRU and madVR OSD and the settings and refresh rates were just like they're supposed to be. So at least currently it would seem that everything is working perfectly in regards to the refresh rate/resolution. I can't even say how happy I am that it works, thank you so so much for your help, I really mean it! :)

I still have a couple of questions...

1. I noticed that in madVR I have multiple identifications for my display, as you can see from this picture: https://imgur.com/a/UNGrgNS
The only identification that's not grayed out is identification 8 which you can see in the picture. In that identification it says that bitdepths = 8bit and that there are no wide gamuts and hdr formats. Is the identification page just bugged or is something wrong with my setup now?

2. About the madVR calibration tools. Do they affect HDR content as well? Many of my HDR movies seem to be using BT.2020 (at least the madVR OSD says "matrix BT.2020" and "primaries BT.2020" but in the calibration settings I've selected DCI-P3. Is this the way it should be or should I change something?

3. I would be interested in your madVR settings since we have almost the same TV's you and me and because you seem to know a lot more than me. Especially scaling algorithms and rendering settings. Here are my settings:

artifact removal: reduce banding artifacts enabled: both settings on high

Scaling algorithms:
- chroma upscaling: super-xbr sharpness 150 + anti-ringing filter
- image downscaling: SSIM 2D - strength: 100% + anti-ringing filter relaxed
- image upscaling: Jinc + anti-ringing filter
- upscaling refinement is at default settings

Rendering:
- general settings: both delay playback options enabled, automatic fullscreen mode enabled (the custom resolution doesn't seem to work without it, is it the same for you?), use Direct3D 11 for presentation and present a frame for every vsync enabled. CPU queue size: 16, GPU queue size: 14

- windowed and exclusive mode are at default settings, except "how many video frames shall be presented in advance" is 12.
- dithering: Error Diffusion - option 1
- use colored noise enabled
- change dither for every frame enabled
- trade quality for performance: everything is unchecked

Also, what picture mode are you using for HDR content on your TV? I'm currently using Cinema.

chros

15th August 2019, 16:22

In CRU the only thing I have is the DisplayID and inside that I have the custom resolution with the correct timings. I also checked the "Native" box, should I uncheck that or leave it checked?
Yes, just leave it checked (as it was stated before).

I can't even say how happy I am that it works, thank you so so much for your help, I really mean it! :)

I'm happy that finally it works! You can get me a drink when we meet in person :D

3. I would be interested in your madVR settings
Take a look at them (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/2364113-guide-building-4k-htpc-madvr-95.html#post58165252), it only can give you an idea about them since you have way more powerful card than me.

Also, what picture mode are you using for HDR content on your TV? I'm currently using Cinema.
Cinema, DTM on in the TV for HDR10.

I'll answer the others later ...

chros

16th August 2019, 11:19

1. I noticed that in madVR I have multiple identifications for my display, as you can see from this picture: https://imgur.com/a/UNGrgNS
The only identification that's not grayed out is identification 8 which you can see in the picture. In that identification it says that bitdepths = 8bit and that there are no wide gamuts and hdr formats. Is the identification page just bugged or is something wrong with my setup now?
The ID tab displays info based on the EDID of the TV. That is not correct in your case, mine reports perfectly everything (8/10/12bit , hdr capability, etc.). Although I don't think it matters at all.
Delete completely the LG device from madVR, then maybe it will recognise it well.

2. About the madVR calibration tools. Do they affect HDR content as well?
Good question whether it's used or not in HDR passthrough mode. I just checked it: it is *not* used.

Many of my HDR movies seem to be using BT.2020 (at least the madVR OSD says "matrix BT.2020" and "primaries BT.2020" but in the calibration settings I've selected DCI-P3. Is this the way it should be or should I change something?
Yes, calibration tab should reflect the capability of the display device, not the content.

And I also added my custom timings and this line to the CRU post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998):
"remember, this approach is modifying "back porch" (horizontal and vertical values) only!"

ThunderFi

18th August 2019, 14:41

Yes, just leave it checked (as it was stated before).

I'm happy that finally it works! You can get me a drink when we meet in person :D

Take a look at them (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/2364113-guide-building-4k-htpc-madvr-95.html#post58165252), it only can give you an idea about them since you have way more powerful card than me.

Cinema, DTM on in the TV for HDR10.

I'll answer the others later ...

Thanks for the info! I bet you've had to explain some things to me at least twice, getting a bit confused with so much new info. Thanks for being patient with me! :)

Hehe sure thing!

What is DTM?

The ID tab displays info based on the EDID of the TV. That is not correct in your case, mine reports perfectly everything (8/10/12bit , hdr capability, etc.). Although I don't think it matters at all.
Delete completely the LG device from madVR, then maybe it will recognise it well.

Good question whether it's used or not in HDR passthrough mode. I think it is.

Yes, calibration tab should reflect the capability of the display device, not the content.

And I also added my custom timings and this line to the CRU post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998):
"remember, this approach is modifying "back porch" (horizontal and vertical values) only!"

Deleting the TV from madVR didn't help. It's still showing 8 different identifications with the 8th one being the only one not grayed out. The identification 8 still displays bitdepth as 8 bit and no hdr etc. Don't know if it matters though, but it is bugging me a bit.

I actually don't remember any more if I had to change any other values other than back porch. But if the playback is buttery smooth then could there even be an issue?

Sorry for the late reply. I still have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1. In MPC-HC should I have madVR added into external filters? Like this: https://imgur.com/a/nmICaF0

2. Is 12 frames being presented in advance in madVR overkill? Should I lower the value?

3. About DXVA2 copy-back. I didn't quite get why it might be better than DXVA2 native. Would a tl;dr be possible? Also, if I have DXVA2 copy-back enabled from MPC-HC I still should have Direct3D 11 enabled from madVR?

4. About the data blocks in CRU. Should I have anything else other than DisplayID and CEA-861? I noticed there is an HDR static metadata block for example. Does it have any useful purpose?

EDIT: Also wondering about average and max rendering times and dithering algorithms. I previously was using Error diffusion 1 but after a bit of research I thought to try ordered dithering. I'm not sure if I see any quality difference. The positive is lower rendering times. Now I enabled NGU Sharp chroma upscaling instead of super-xbr. My average rendering times are staying below 30 ms, usually around 25 ms when watching 4K HDR 24p content. From what I've understood 30 ms is the maximum rendering time one can have and still achieve smooth playback, is that right? Though sometimes the maxium rendering time goes way above 30 ms, that's bad, right? It would seem that if I want to go for either of the error diffusion options I have to change back to super-xbr. Any thoughts on which would be better, having super-xbr and error diffusion 1/2 or having ngu sharp with ordered dithering? Also, I think the color banding is quite less noticeable with DXVA2 copy-back instead of DXVA2 native, so there's one clear improvement.

chros

19th August 2019, 12:24

Thanks for the info! I bet you've had to explain some things to me at least twice, getting a bit confused with so much new info.
What is DTM?
No worries. DTM: Dynamic Tone Mapping.

I actually don't remember any more if I had to change any other values other than back porch. But if the playback is buttery smooth then could there even be an issue?
It can, that's what I mentioned before.
But you can easily check it:
- run CRU and take a look at the set numbers
- run madvr optimiser and take a look at the EDID values (that belongs to the given refresh rate)

1. In MPC-HC should I have madVR added into external filters? Like this: https://imgur.com/a/nmICaF0
There's no need for it, just select it from the dropdown.

2. Is 12 frames being presented in advance in madVR overkill?
I use the default value.

4. About the data blocks in CRU. Should I have anything else other than DisplayID and CEA-861?
Don't touch anything else :) We're only supposed to add DisplayID at the top of that list, nothing else.

3. About DXVA2 copy-back. I didn't quite get why it might be better than DXVA2 native. Would a tl;dr be possible? Also, if I have DXVA2 copy-back enabled from MPC-HC I still should have Direct3D 11 enabled from madVR?
...
Also, I think the color banding is quite less noticeable with DXVA2 copy-back instead of DXVA2 native, so there's one clear improvement.
You just answered one of your own question :)

About madvr specific questions:
- madVR Options Explained (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171787) by @Asmodian
- madvr options (https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188&pid=2238942#pid2238942) by @Warner306
- if you will still have questions then go to the big madvr thread (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228)

ThunderFi

19th August 2019, 20:35

No worries. DTM: Dynamic Tone Mapping.

It can, that's what I mentioned before.
But you can easily check it:
- run CRU and take a look at the set numbers
- run madvr optimiser and take a look at the EDID values (that belongs to the given refresh rate)

There's no need for it, just select it from the dropdown.

I use the default value.

Don't touch anything else :) We're only supposed to add DisplayID at the top of that list, nothing else.

You just answered one of your own question :)

About madvr specific questions:
- madVR Options Explained (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171787) by @Asmodian
- madvr options (https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188&pid=2238942#pid2238942) by @Warner306
- if you will still have questions then go to the big madvr thread (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228)

Oh I see. I thought HDR passthrough was the better option? Or does it depend on the content?

Okay, so I decided to start from a clean slate with the custom timings. I deleted the DisplayID block, reset my display and restarted my PC. Then I went and put up a movie on my TV and chose EDID from madVR custom timings for 23p. Then I restarted my PC and then opened a movie and madVR again. Then I let it optimize. After optimization I chose optimized pixel clock #1 because the current timings resulted in a frame repeat in every 1.14 hours. After that I restarted again and let madVR optimize again and I got these results: https://imgur.com/a/aBDoPnO

I was really satisfied with having only 1 frame drop every 1.49 days. Though I had been wondering why the video playback was choppy/stuttery, basically not smooth at all even though the stats seemed so good. Anyway, I just went on with it. I took a picture of those settings, which is the one I linked above. Then I deleted the custom timings from madVR and restarted my PC. After that I went to CRU to create my DisplayID block again. This is how the CRU timings were by default at this point: https://imgur.com/a/YoczVUO

Really trying to follow your instructions I went on and only changed back porch horizontal + vertical and pixel clock. What I soon noticed was that when I did that I didn't end up with the correct refresh rate, as you can see from here: https://imgur.com/a/f4uaUH9

madVR reported in the optimized timing parameters that the mode I had selected with the pixel clock of 297.77 MHz would result in a refresh rate of 23.97631... as you can see from the previous picture. Well, in CRU this pixel clock didn't result in the desired refresh rate.

I tried with the correct pixel clock which resulted in the wrong refresh rate and I also tried with the correct refresh rate which resulted in the wrong pixel clock. As you can see from the pictures the values of front porch horizontal, blanking and total are different in CRU and in the optimized timings in madVR even though I did not touch them at all. I'm getting really confused and a bit frustrated. How can this be so hard? On top of it all when I began this whole process madVR was showing my TV's identification correctly. It showed identification 1 which included all the correct bitdepth, hdr and color gamut info. After doing the custom resolution with CRU it showed identification 8 with the wrong information.

I don't know what to do here.

EDIT: I also noticed that when I have applied a custom resolution using CRU (in the DisplayID) in madVR there are no EDID timings available at all. What I mean is that when I go into custom modes and click on the 23p option I see no EDID option there at all. The EDID option comes back when I'm not using CRU to apply a custom resolution. Is this normal?

Asmodian

19th August 2019, 20:51

ThunderFi

19th August 2019, 21:36

You need to make sure madVR starts from the same settings as CRU's defaults: Don't chose the EDID from madVR custom timings or let madVR change resolutions, simply set your resolution manually in Windows. You also do not need to run that second test optimizing your already optimal settings. It sounds like the refresh rate madVR set originally did not match what CRU starts at.

Hey and thanks for the reply!

It's getting late here so I'm going to try that tomorrow. Just to be sure that I understand:

1. If I'm not to choose EDID from madVR custom timings for the optimization process, than what should I choose?

2. Whatever mode I'm supposed to choose in madVR, should I edit all of the timings to match the ones I can find in CRU?

Also as a side note. Previously just selecting 23 Hz in NVIDIA CP resulted in the same choppy/stuttery playback as has happened many times when trying to get custom timings working. Though right now the 23 Hz from NVIDIA CP seems to be working just fine, no stutter. Though madVR OSD shows a frame repeat every 5 minutes or so.

VBB

19th August 2019, 23:40

I've been following this thread since the beginning, since I have an LG C7 OLED myself, and I'm always curious to see what settings others are using. I've had the TV for almost two years now, and up until a couple of months ago I always used it in non-PC mode with madVR set to switch to the proper frame rate. Due to the stutter inherent in all OLEDs, I set Dejudder to 5 and called it a day. You get kinda used to the soap opera effect after a while, and the added clarity is definitely welcome, but recently the artifacts started to really bug me. Then I came across a post on AVS which led me to try the following:

Set desktop refresh rate to 60Hz, 8-bit, RGB Full

Set madVR to 8-bit output.

Disable rate switching in madVR.

Enable smooth motion in madVR.

On the TV, set to PC mode or normal. Personally, I prefer 4:2:2 over the heavy banding that comes with PC mode.

Disable Real Cinema and TruMotion in both SDR and HDR modes. To disable Real Cinema in HDR, it helps to have the LG's menu open at that setting ahead of time, because you only get a second to change it.

The result is the smoothest picture I've ever had on my OLED (without the use TruMotion). No artifacts, no judder, and no repeated frames (no need for CRU). Only a hint of motion blur due to smooth motion at 60Hz. I can't wait for HDMI 2.1, so that I can do this at 120Hz (with a new TV and video card, of course).

If anyone wants to convince me to use PC mode again, I'm all ears ;)

chros

20th August 2019, 12:32

After optimization I chose optimized pixel clock #1 because the current timings resulted in a frame repeat in every 1.14 hours. After that I restarted again and let madVR optimize again and I got these results: https://imgur.com/a/aBDoPnO
This looks good so far: only the back porch values have been changed.

Really trying to follow your instructions I went on and only changed back porch horizontal + vertical and pixel clock. What I soon noticed was that when I did that I didn't end up with the correct refresh rate, as you can see from here: https://imgur.com/a/f4uaUH9
That's why: you have to enter *all* the values that belongs to madvr result you selected!!! :)
Start over :)

No artifacts, no judder, and no repeated frames (no need for CRU). Only a hint of motion blur due to smooth motion at 60Hz.
Note that I haven't tried smooth motion on any of my TV, but for me the native refresh rate is good enough: there's no blur/judder, but there is *stutter* on panning shots, although it doesn't bother me since I got used to it in the last ~15 years :)

If anyone wants to convince me to use PC mode again, I'm all ears ;)
:) It's a matter of personal preference since there is still *not* perfect mode with HDR content:
- (near) chroma 4:4:4 (with its high sharpness) vs (small to none) banding/posterisation
- there's a big difference in HDR between 7 and 8 series:
-- HDR handling has been changed for the better
-- there *is* DTM in PC mode with 8 series (that I like)

With SDR content PC mode is the clear winner on the 8 series.

ThunderFi

20th August 2019, 13:38

This looks good so far: only the back porch values have been changed.

That's why: you have to enter *all* the values that belongs to madvr result you selected!!! :)
Start over :)

So, I have to make sure that in CRU I edit all of the values to match the ones in madVR optimization? If that's the case then I didn't understand you right. I thought that I should just edit back porch and pixel clock because if I were to edit the other values that might cause problems.

Anyway, I tried doing it again with the values I got from madVR previously, the ones I posted in my previous message. So I didn't go through the optimization process any more. I just went to CRU and did what was needed, restarted my PC and tried to watch a movie. Everything worked well, the playback was very smooth. Then I restarted my computer and once more the same exact custom timings that just worked didn't work properly any more. The movie playback was back to being choppy/stuttery. Aslo, again in madVR the only identification that's not greyed out is the one that doesn't contain any info about bitdepths, color gamuts and HDR.

I seriously don't understand what's the issue. How can timings that resulted in 1 frame drop every 1.49 days cause playback that's unwatchable? Even the regular 23 Hz mode causes choppy/stuttery playback, the default one in NVIDIA CP, that looks just as bad as the custom timings.

I noticed that when I use CRU to create a custom resolution inside the DisplayID block, in NVIDIA CP I find a new resolution under "PC" resolutions and not under "Ultra HD, HD, SD" resolutions. Is this the way CRU is supposed to work?

I've been following this thread since the beginning, since I have an LG C7 OLED myself, and I'm always curious to see what settings others are using. I've had the TV for almost two years now, and up until a couple of months ago I always used it in non-PC mode with madVR set to switch to the proper frame rate. Due to the stutter inherent in all OLEDs, I set Dejudder to 5 and called it a day. You get kinda used to the soap opera effect after a while, and the added clarity is definitely welcome, but recently the artifacts started to really bug me. Then I came across a post on AVS which led me to try the following:

Set desktop refresh rate to 60Hz, 8-bit, RGB Full

Set madVR to 8-bit output.

Disable rate switching in madVR.

Enable smooth motion in madVR.

On the TV, set to PC mode or normal. Personally, I prefer 4:2:2 over the heavy banding that comes with PC mode.

Disable Real Cinema and TruMotion in both SDR and HDR modes. To disable Real Cinema in HDR, it helps to have the LG's menu open at that setting ahead of time, because you only get a second to change it.

The result is the smoothest picture I've ever had on my OLED (without the use TruMotion). No artifacts, no judder, and no repeated frames (no need for CRU). Only a hint of motion blur due to smooth motion at 60Hz. I can't wait for HDMI 2.1, so that I can do this at 120Hz (with a new TV and video card, of course).

If anyone wants to convince me to use PC mode again, I'm all ears ;)

Thanks for the info! I might try this, we'll see. Though I do prefer the PC mode myself as well even though it has heavy banding in certain scenes.

chros

20th August 2019, 14:29

I thought that I should just edit back porch and pixel clock...
This part belongs the optimisation process of madvr!

So, I have to make sure that in CRU I edit all of the values to match the ones in madVR optimization?
That's correct :)

Anyway, I tried doing it again with the values I got from madVR previously, the ones I posted in my previous message. So I didn't go through the optimization process any more. I just went to CRU and did what was needed, restarted my PC and tried to watch a movie.
That's correct: if you don't modify anything in your setup then those values should work all the time, so make a note of them.

Everything worked well, the playback was very smooth. Then I restarted my computer and once more the same exact custom timings that just worked didn't work properly any more. The movie playback was back to being choppy/stuttery.
That can mean:
- your GPU driver lost it
- is there still a custom res in madvr? If so, delete it.
- check cru whether the right values are still set
- check madVR OSD that the perfect refresh rate is reported in the top row

It should work :)

Aslo, again in madVR the only identification that's not greyed out is the one that doesn't contain any info about bitdepths, color gamuts and HDR.
I don't understand this part either. E.g. I had to reinstall Win10 (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871834#post1871834) 4 months ago because the OS was confused about the new LG display, the previous one was an LG LCD: I couldn't put out 4k resolution at all :)

I noticed that when I use CRU to create a custom resolution inside the DisplayID block, in NVIDIA CP I find a new resolution under "PC" resolutions and not under "Ultra HD, HD, SD" resolutions. Is this the way CRU is supposed to work?
I think so, yes. (I don't have my PC in front of me now.)

ThunderFi

20th August 2019, 16:23

This part belongs the optimisation process of madvr!

That's correct :)

That's correct: if you don't modify anything in your setup then those values should work all the time, so make a note of them.

That can mean:
- your GPU driver lost it
- is there still a custom res in madvr? If so, delete it.
- check cru whether the right values are still set
- check madVR OSD that the perfect refresh rate is reported in the top row

It should work :)

I don't understand this part either. E.g. I had to reinstall Win10 (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871834#post1871834) 4 months ago because the OS was confused about the new LG display, the previous one was an LG LCD: I couldn't put out 4k resolution at all :)

I think so, yes. (I don't have my PC in front of me now.)

Thanks for the info.

I wanted to be sure that there was nothing weird going on with my GPU so I uninstalled my previous GPU drivers with DDU and installed the newest ones.

After that I went on and tried first to use the NVIDIA CP default 23 Hz refresh rate. At this point I didn't have anything edited in CRU and no custom resolutions in madVR. Is the NVIDIA CP default 23 Hz supposed to give at least somewhat of a smooth playback? My playback is stuttering like hell but there are no frame drops/repeats. It's just not fluid and this has been the case since I started to play around with madVR and thought to try 23 Hz.

Now I tried two different custom resolution timings that I had saved from previous optimizations. Neither of these worked, they resulted in the same stuttering/choppiness or whatever you want to call it.

I just don't understand, isn't even the NVIDIA CP default 23 Hz supposed to work but you just want to get it even better so you do the whole optimization in madVR? In my case the default 23 Hz is horrible like I've said and when optimizing the playback is just as horrible. I just don't understand and I don't know what to do any more. I feel like I've done the optimization -> create custom resolution with CRU in the DisplayID block process so many times and it always ends up not working. It might work after the first restart but after that it goes back to the horrible playback.

VBB

20th August 2019, 18:34

Note that I haven't tried smooth motion on any of my TV, but for me the native refresh rate is good enough: there's no blur/judder, but there is *stutter* on panning shots, although it doesn't bother me since I got used to it in the last ~15 years :)

:) It's a matter of personal preference since there is still *not* perfect mode with HDR content:
- (near) chroma 4:4:4 (with its high sharpness) vs (small to none) banding/posterisation
- there's a big difference in HDR between 7 and 8 series:
-- HDR handling has been changed for the better
-- there *is* DTM in PC mode with 8 series (that I like)

With SDR content PC mode is the clear winner on the 8 series.

It's that motion stutter, especially when panning, that led me to try smooth motion. The difference is very noticeable. It turns the stutter into a slight blur. Anyway, yes, the 7 series in PC mode does not allow DTM, so that's another reason for me to use normal 4:2:2 mode. I really hope the 10 series next year will bring banding free 4:4:4 10-bit@120Hz. One can dream, right?

j82k

21st August 2019, 03:55

To disable Real Cinema in HDR, it helps to have the LG's menu open at that setting ahead of time, because you only get a second to change it.

Do you have any specific method for that? I know I've had that real cinema disable glitch before with one of the HDR presets but I can't seem to do it anymore. I do also wonder if one could glitch the SDR game preset to do a color gamut change.

VBB

21st August 2019, 08:22

Do you have any specific method for that? I know I've had that real cinema disable glitch before with one of the HDR presets but I can't seem to do it anymore. I do also wonder if one could glitch the SDR game preset to do a color gamut change.

Here's the original post from AVS:

"For those wondering how to turn off Real Cinema in HDR mode, I managed to find a way to do it.
You all noticed that the menu is grayed out in HDR mode and can't be changed, but still active anyway.

The trick is simple for those who use a HTPC, other will need to connect a laptop to the TV on the HDMI input you want to change, and force HDR mode through windows.
Go into the settings menu where RC is located, then open your graphic card utility, and change the refresh rate.
You will notice that for a very small time, RC options becomes selectable at the refresh rate change then is greyed out again (we're talking about half a second here, really quick).
I tried to use the remote to get into the RC menu in that short time window, could'n do it, but after several refresh rate changes, I bugged the menu, and RC stayed active, then I could change it.
I checked afterwards, playing a hdr video, the RC menu is grayed out again, but it is now disabled.

For HTPC users, madvr with display options off, smooth motion always, display set to 60Hz, RC off and TM off, enjoy a completely judder free playback."