How to burn subtitles to a dvd?

[lowlyfme]

I am new to subtitles and just recently started using a combination of two different subtitle programs. My computer runs off of Windows 7. I use Aegisub and the Subtitle Workshop. I use the Subtitle workshop since it displays the video in real time, making it easier to time the subtitles, and then transfer the saved subtitles to Aegisub and do my final alterations there since it lets me place subtitles in more positions and such. But I still don't know what I need to do to burn these subtitles along with the video onto a DVD. What all do I need to do? My videos are in MP4 format, but I can convert them if necessary. What steps will I need to take? What softwares will I need to successfully hardsub the subtitles to the video? What is this 'encoding' I am hearing about with subtitles? I want to have subtitles in the videos I burn, and make it so that the dvd can be read on your everyday DVD player. I am new to all of this, but any help or feedback would be great. SInce I'm not exactly computer efficient, step-by-step instructions would be great, but I'll accept any help you can give me...

[fvisagie]

Subtitles are converted to images (BMP, SUP etc. depending on the DVD authoring program), video is encoded to DVD-compliant MPEG2 format and then the authoring program writes the content to the disc. This can be done with discrete programs for each step, although newcomers might prefer the simplicity of all-in-one solutions. Videohelp.com has extensive lists of such tools, along with user reviews.

Unless you are absolutely committed to outputing in DVD format, you could also overlay the text subtitles directly onto your MP4 videos without any further conversion, and distribute the MP4 videos and subtitles as such. Some players like Media Player Classic-based ones provide built-in support for selectable subtitles. If your target machines won't all have such players, look at external subtitle renderers like the VSFilter-based ones.

By the way, Aegisub has served my subtitle timing needs well; perhaps you are (or I am ;)) overlooking something.

[lowlyfme]

What do you mean by the DVD authoring program? The program that allows me to burn it to DVD? I have DVDvideosoft, but I don't know if that will work to burn dvd's with subtitles. Basically if I'm understanding correctly, based off of whatever DVD authoring program I have (or whatever dvd authoring program I will have), I have to convert the subtitle image to a format that that program can work with and read, correct? So I'll need to find software that can convert my mp4 or mkv files to MPEG2, correct? Along with a software that can convert whatever format into the format which is compatible with the DVD authoring program. I actually have the files in their original form as well, which is mkv format if that will make it any easier. SO, I will need a DVD authoring program, and two format converters(unless I find one that covers multiple). Is there anything else? After I've converted those formats, is there anything else I'll need to have or do to hardsub then burn the DVDs?

[fvisagie]

The all-in-one solutions do everything (converting video to MPEG2, subtitles to images and authoring) from within one program. They may lack flexibility and/or take some shortcuts which may result in preventable loss of quality compared to using discrete solutions for each step, but are usually easier to get going with.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the capabilities of DVDvideosoft to tell in which category it falls.

[trumpet205]

You could use Handbrake to hardsub .ass subtitle. This will make it a permanent subtitle (can't turn off), as subtitle becomes part of the video rather than independent tracks.

What I probably would do is using Handbrake with CRF 0 to hardsub, then use your DVD authoring software to export it into DVD compliant format.

[lowlyfme]

Ok. Thank you guys so much for your help! I'm new to all of this and was so lost haha. I will try Handbrake first and see how it works for me. That's exactly what I wanted was to have the subtitles become a part of the actual disk. But just in case that doesn't work...What programs would you recommend to do these things: 1) convert .ass files to images, 2) convert MP4 or MKV files to MPEG-2 3) burn DVD's with hardsubbed subtitles or burn DVD's with subtitle 'images' and MPEG-2 files?

[TheSkiller]

That's exactly what I wanted was to have the subtitles become a part of the actual disk.They become part of the disc either way. The difference between "hard" and "soft" subtitles is whether the subtitles are part of the video like the rest of the video is (that would be hard subtitles) or if they are stored separately so that they can be overlaid optionally during playback if needed (called soft subtitles). Since hard subtitles are part of the encoded video they cannot be switched off and have to be overlaid before encoding the video.


1) convert .ass files to images, avs2bdnxml (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146493) which will spit out PNG images + BDN XML script. Then you may use BDSup2Sub (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=145277) to convert that to the final format needed for your authoring program (like SUP or IDX+SUB).


2) convert MP4 or MKV files to MPEG-2I'm not too familiar with all-in-one softwares but Handbrake could be your candidat here.


3) burn DVD's with hardsubbed subtitlesNothing beats ImgBurn (http://www.imgburn.com/) (free) for burning (note that burning really is just that - burning, authoring takes place prior to that).

[fvisagie]

What programs would you recommend to do these things: 1) convert .ass files to images, 2) convert MP4 or MKV files to MPEG-2 3) burn DVD's with hardsubbed subtitles or burn DVD's with subtitle 'images' and MPEG-2 files?

What I use - as opposed to necessarily recommend ;) - are 1) MaestroSBT, 2) ffmpeg, 3) GUI for dvdauthor, the latter set to author with muxman.

I lost some years of my life getting to grips with these and getting them to work together properly. Potentially this toolchain is therefore only of illustrative value to you, in which case you may still look for potentially simpler alternatives to work with, or look for a simpler all-in-one tool at this point.

[TheSkiller]

1) MaestroSBT
MaestroSBT is fine, however it does not keep the *.ass font stylings.

Imho avs2bdnxml + BDSup2Sub is the way to go to faithfully convert *.ass subtitles to a DVD format without changing their look and formatting.

[fvisagie]

Indeed. However, because I don't use ASS-specific style elements, it doesn't matter in my case.

[manono]

MaestroSBT is fine, however it does not keep the *.ass font stylings.
Maybe he doesn't need the full range of ASS's abilities:

...and then transfer the saved subtitles to Aegisub and do my final alterations there since it lets me place subtitles in more positions and such.

If what he wants is positioning, won't MaestroSBT do it? For my own subs I use SSA and sometimes use things like italics and non-standard positioning and they get handled okay. Yes, for different fonts and colors within the same subs, the DVD specs don't allow for much variety anyway. I could be wrong as I don't use much variety in my subs, but if SSA can do it so can MaestroSBT for the most part (too much color and font variety excepted).

[lowlyfme]

So I re-encoded my MKV files to MPEG-2 format, but it appears Subtitle Workshop and Aegisub cannot work with that format due to lack of keyframes. I'm afraid if I were to use the original MKV files to start making the subtitles, the timing will be off after re-encoding the MKV videos to MPEG-2. Is there anything I can do to make it so the MPEG-2 files work with these programs? According to reviews, DVDlab can re-encode the MPEG-2 files so that they have the needed amount of keyframes. Argh, this is all becoming such a headache! But your guys' help is keeping me from going insane! Maybe I'm just doing everything in the wrong order...idk. So, should I use the MKV files while making the subtitles, then once finished making subtitles, hardsub the .ass files to the MPEG-2 version? Or could that affect the timing of the video, also mismatching the subtitle's timing?

[fvisagie]

So I re-encoded my MKV files to MPEG-2 format, but it appears Subtitle Workshop and Aegisub cannot work with that format due to lack of keyframes.

My somewhat non-current version of Aegisub supports MPEG-2 very nicely and I cannot imagine that the current version won't. In View.Options.Video.Video provider ffmpegsource works best. There will probably be a more recent version of ffms2.dll on its discussion thread in this forum than the one shipped with your Aegisub.

I'm afraid if I were to use the original MKV files to start making the subtitles, the timing will be off after re-encoding the MKV videos to MPEG-2.

What makes you believe that? One of the chief design goals of modern encoders and multiplexers is to preserve timing. Given that everything is set up and used correctly, you certainly shouldn't expect timing differences after encoding to MPEG-2.

Is there anything I can do to make it so the MPEG-2 files work with these programs?

As for first point above.

So, should I use the MKV files while making the subtitles, then once finished making subtitles, hardsub the .ass files to the MPEG-2 version? Or could that affect the timing of the video, also mismatching the subtitle's timing?

As mentioned, MPEG-2 conversion done correctly won't affect timing. Therefore, it is a matter of preference whether you want to use your source MKVs or converted MPEG-2s as reference for subtitle work.

Many people argue that soft-subtitling is more future-proof, and it certainly is generally more user-friendly - those who want them and those who don't can both have their requirements addressed. Hard subtitles, on the other hand, can never be removed.

If you really want hard subtitles, there are some options to consider. You could add them during the conversion to MPEG-2 (inputting via a text subtitle filter), or you could add them as forced DVD subtitles during the DVD authoring process. The advantages of the first over the second are a more widely-understood process and greater subtitle quality, while the advantage of the second over the first is that subtitles are already stored in DVD format separately from your video (but forcibly displayed during playback), so that you could conceivably turn them into soft subtitles later simply by re-authoring your DVD.

PS.So I re-encoded my MKV files to MPEG-2 format
Do make sure your encodes are DVD-compliant. DVD video uses a subset of MPEG-2 capabilities. Hopefully your MPEG-2 encoder makes provision for DVD-compliant encoding, but if not, here are some links to help explain the background.
http://www.videohelp.com/dvd#tech
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Video
http://dvd.sourceforge.net/dvdinfo/dvdmpeg.html

I attach a user-friendly batch script interface to a high-quality DVD-compliant ffmpeg command line just in case. Should anyone wonder why I don't use the built-in PAL-DVD and/or NTSC-DVD format specifiers :), the reason is that ffmpeg has a bug which forcibly resizes input files with a width of 704 pixels (which is DVD-compliant) to 720 pixels, damaging aspect ratio and causing quality loss with the (unnecessary) additional resizing.

The script caters for adding hard-coded subtitles from ASS source. To use that feature you need Avisynth with the TextSub() filter. When adding subtitles, the script assumes AVI video input to Avisynth with the lineecho OpenDMLSource(%INPUT%)>%AVSCRIPT%For other file formats you'll need to specify the appropriate Avisynth media file filter.

If your source material is (or was originally) in HD format, encoding to DVD-compliant format implies conversion to SD (downscaling, in other words). In that case I suggest you also add BT.709-to-BT.601 colour coefficient conversion to prevent colour information shifts. Usually they are subtle, but once you know about them they become hard to ignore! There are various ways to do this. One such in Avisynth is specifying the 'matrix=PC.601' parameter with filters like the ConvertToXYZ() colourspace converters, but the best tool and method will be determined by your workflow.

[lowlyfme]

By the way, Aegisub has served my subtitle timing needs well; perhaps you are (or I am ;)) overlooking something.

I don't know why, but Subtitle Workshop plays the video much smoother than Aegisub. Aegisub seems to skip over seconds so it's more like watching consecutive clips rather than the video in it's regular stream.


You could use Handbrake to hardsub .ass subtitle.

How do I do that? I did install Handbrake, but when I'd try and load the subtitle file, it only had the option to load an .srt file...

What I probably would do is using Handbrake with CRF 0 to hardsub, then use your DVD authoring software to export it into DVD compliant format.

Is CRF 0 a setting/preference? Or a software? Computers are a foreign language to me haha.




What I use - as opposed to necessarily recommend ;) - are 1) MaestroSBT, 2) ffmpeg, 3) GUI for dvdauthor, the latter set to author with muxman.

Are GUI and muxman softwares?

MaestroSBT is fine, however it does not keep the *.ass font stylings.

All I really need is for the font to be white with black borders. That and italics in certain parts. I could care less about the actual font though. I can just stick with the basic Arial font. Oh, and I need the subtitles about a quarter- to a half- inch higher than the usual subtitle location (whichs is usually to the bottom center).

My somewhat non-current version of Aegisub supports MPEG-2 very nicely and I cannot imagine that the current version won't.

When I try to load the MPEG-2 file with Aegisub, it gives me the following error...
YUV4MPEG:video is not in a supported format.
FFmpegsource: video is not in a supported format.
Avisynth: Avisynth error:Directshowsource: timout waiting for graph to start.

When I try to load it in Subtitle Workshop, there is audio, but no visual.

I have a hunch it has something to do with the original video's format. But I wouldn't know the first thing about videos. Is there any software that can scan the file and tell me all the information about that file? Such as the codecs, filters...you name it? If I could do that and send the results, maybe you would be able to see what the problem is. Maybe it has something to do with the original video or the MPEG-2 converted file.

In View.Options.Video.Video provider ffmpegsource works best.

I have it set to ffmpegsource, so that's good.

Given that everything is set up and used correctly, you certainly shouldn't expect timing differences after encoding to MPEG-2.

I think for now I'll stick to using the MKV file to base the subtitles off of, since I still don't know what the problem is with my MPEG-2 files and why they aren't cooperating. Since the conversion shouldn't interfere with the sub timings, I guess it doesn't matter which video format I use.

If you really want hard subtitles, there are some options to consider. You could add them during the conversion to MPEG-2 (inputting via a text subtitle filter), or you could add them as forced DVD subtitles during the DVD authoring process. The advantages of the first over the second are a more widely-understood process and greater subtitle quality, while the advantage of the second over the first is that subtitles are already stored in DVD format separately from your video (but forcibly displayed during playback), so that you could conceivably turn them into soft subtitles later simply by re-authoring your DVD.

I just want the subtitles to be permanently placed onto the DVD. I'll be double if not triple-checking the spelling and such before doing the final authoring and burning. I shouldn't be needing to access the subtitles later for anything, so I shouldn't be needing to turn them to softsubs later.


Do make sure your encodes are DVD-compliant. DVD video uses a subset of MPEG-2 capabilities. Hopefully your MPEG-2 encoder makes provision for DVD-compliant encoding, but if not, here are some links to help explain the background.

I'm starting to worry that the MPEG-2 converted files aren't DVD compliant. How would I know though? Is there a software that can scan the file and tell me the codecs, filters applied, subtitles, etc.?

[manono]

All I really need is for the font to be white with black borders. That and italics in certain parts. I could care less about the actual font though. I can just stick with the basic Arial font. Oh, and I need the subtitles about a quarter- to a half- inch higher than the usual subtitle location (whichs is usually to the bottom center).
Me, I'd never hardcode subs into a DVD when it's just as easy to make them selectable. Encoding subs requires higher bitrate for the same quality. The reason is subs are static while there may be movement all around. This makes it much harder on the encoder. Hardcoded subs almost always wind up with mosquito noise all around them.

Anyway, it's a simple matter to adjust the height of subs after the fact using DVDSubEdit. It's a simple matter to adjust the colors using either DVDSubEdit or PGCEdit after the fact. I don't know how to get italics into some lines of subs other than creating SSA subs for use in MaestroSBT. Maybe some all-in-one DVD encoding/menu creation/authoring program such as AVSToDVD accept SSA (or ASS) subs as input. I don't know as I don't use them.

I'm starting to worry that the MPEG-2 converted files aren't DVD compliant. How would I know though?
You could load the M2V into Muxman. If it's rejected immediately it's not compliant. You won't know if the bitrates are complaint until you actually author it. In addition, this might help:

http://www.videohelp.com/dvd

[lowlyfme]

Me, I'd never hardcode subs into a DVD when it's just as easy to make them selectable.

If softsubbing's as easy as hardsubbing, I can do that as well. Whichever is easier. Can Handbrake do softsubs? If not, what can?


You could load the M2V into Muxman. If it's rejected immediately it's not compliant. You won't know if the bitrates are complaint until you actually author it. In addition, this might help:

http://www.videohelp.com/dvd

I will try loading the video in Muxman and see what happens. I'll take a look at that website as well. Thanks!

[lowlyfme]

Muxman didn't say any error messages when I loaded the MPEG-2 file, but when browsing to find the videos, it didn't show up under "useable files". It didn't show until I told windows to search through "all videos". Don't know if that means anything, but it could...

[manono]

Can Handbrake do softsubs?
I thought you were making a DVD. If so, why is Handbrake even being mentioned? It has nothing to do with DVDs.

[Asmodian]

I thought you were making a DVD. If so, why is Handbrake even being mentioned? It has nothing to do with DVDs.

It was mentioned as an easy way to create a lossless intermediate H.264 video (--crf 0) with the subtitles burned in. As soon as softsubs are desired Handbrake will not help for DVD creation.

I agree soft subs are much to be preferred unless you want a lot of features from ass to show up the same on a DVD player. Such complex subs will have mosquito noise around them.

[lowlyfme]

I've gotten so many recommendations that I don't know which ones will work or which ones won't anymore haha. Sounds like softsubbing might be easier. If I were to send a copy of the GSpot report, do you think you could give me advice based off of that? I could send info regarding the original MKV file? I think softsubbing will be the way to go instead of hardsubbing. Maybe there's something wrong with the MKV file that makes it difficult to convert to the necessary MPEG-2 format that I don't know about. My head's spinning and since I don't know what kind of file I'd be working with, I don't know if the recommendations would be of any help to me...If Gspot would help at all let me know...

[Asmodian]

Do you want to do anything complicated in the subs? If not you can save them as an SRT instead of an ASS which should give a better chance the all in one DVD authoring tools will work. You can save as SRT with Save As in Subtitle Workshop and chose the SubRip format, or batch convert.

Does your DVD authoring tool support adding subtitles?

You could try DVD Flick (http://www.dvdflick.net/), it supports simple subtitles (SRT or ASS w/o formatting).

[fvisagie]

Are GUI and muxman softwares?

The authoring tool name is GUI for dvdauthor (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/GUI-for-dvdauthor). It provides a graphical user interface to the dvdauthor and muxman authoring tools, both of which are included in the GUI for dvdauthor installer, if I remember correctly. Note that dvdauthor and muxman are alternatives to one another, i.e. normally you'll use only one of the two. GUI for dvdauthor has a setting to govern that.

Given that you do not seem overly concerned about quality at this stage, you may find it easier to work with a suitable all-in-one DVD authoring tool (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/sections/all-in-one-dvd-converters) as suggested above.

[lowlyfme]

You could use Handbrake to hardsub .ass subtitle. This will make it a permanent subtitle (can't turn off), as subtitle becomes part of the video rather than independent tracks.

From what other people are saying, hardsubbing will cause mosquito noise? I'm trying to keep the video as good quality as possible. The video is in HD format and I'm trying to keep it as close to it's original quality as possible. Since I am now looking at softsubbing, what can I use instead?

avs2bdnxml (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146493) which will spit out PNG images + BDN XML script. Then you may use BDSup2Sub (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=145277) to convert that to the final format needed for your authoring program (like SUP or IDX+SUB).

I take it these will no longer apply since I am now looking at softsubbing?

Anyway, it's a simple matter to adjust the height of subs after the fact using DVDSubEdit.

I found a more up-to-date version of Subtitle Workshop which allowed me to position the subtitles just where I needed them, along with choose the coloring and italics, so hopefully that problem's out of the way...

I don't know how to get italics into some lines of subs other than creating SSA subs for use in MaestroSBT. Maybe some all-in-one DVD encoding/menu creation/authoring program such as AVSToDVD accept SSA (or ASS) subs as input. I don't know as I don't use them.

Do you mean that you don't know how to get italics on some lines into SSA (or .ass) format , or do you mean you don't know of a way to get italics onto some lines for ANY subtitle format? If .ssa will be difficult to work with, I can always re-save the final format of the subs to an easier format to work with. What would you recommend to make things easier?


I agree soft subs are much to be preferred unless you want a lot of features from ass to show up the same on a DVD player. Such complex subs will have mosquito noise around them.

Do you know how to do softsubbing then? All the previous recommendations were based off of the assumption I would be hardsubbing. It sounds like it'd be better and possibly easier to softsub those subtitles onto a DVD. What steps will I need to softsub rather than hardsubbing? Programs? It doesn't have to be an all-in-one program as long as I get recommendations for the different softwares for each step. Trying to find the right software for each job is the hardest part I think.


Does your DVD authoring tool support adding subtitles?
I don't currently have a specific DVD authoring tool since I am still trying to figure out exactly what all needs to be done with the type of video I have prior to authoring. It's been hard to get it to cooperate, let alone get it to convert to a DVD-compatible MPEG-2 format. For some reason, even after converting it to MPEG-2 format, all the programs I tried to run it with didn't like the video. I think I have all the codecs necessary, so I doubt that's the problem. My guess is something with the video is preventing the video to convert properly to MPEG-2 format. So as of now, I'm using the original MKV format so I can time the subtitles properly.


You could try DVD Flick (http://www.dvdflick.net/), it supports simple subtitles (SRT or ASS w/o formatting).
I've heard good things about DVDFLICk and was going to give it a look, but since I'm leaning towards softsubbing, will that be of any help to me now? Or is it out of the question?


Given that you do not seem overly concerned about quality at this stage, you may find it easier to work with a suitable all-in-one DVD authoring tool (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/sections/all-in-one-dvd-converters) as suggested above.
I was leaning towards that at first, but then it was mentioned that it could alter the quality of the video. i'm trying to keep it as close to the original quality as possible, since it is currently in HD format. So I think instead I am leaning towards finding individual programs to do different jobs. But now that I'm softsubbing...I don't know what steps I'll be taking rather than the previous steps which were for hardsubbing...

[TheSkiller]

From what other people are saying, hardsubbing will cause mosquito noise?Since with hard subtitles the text merges with the video and has to be encoded with it, the required bitrate for the same overall result quality wise will rise. Sharp edges of text are prone to provoking mosquito noise around them. With high bitrates and a soft edge on the text borders ("\be1" tag in ASS script) it's not going to be an issue. But still, it eats way more bitrate off the actual video than soft subtitles.
On the other hand these hard subtitles themselves will probably look nicer than soft subtitles because hard subtitles for DVD-Video are limited to 4 colors only (that's usually the text color, one for anti-alias, one for border and background which is transpartent), in other other words they are a bit blocky – you have probably seen this with commercial DVDs.


I take it these will no longer apply since I am now looking at softsubbing?Nope, this workflow is for *soft* subtitles. ;)

If you wanted to make hard subtitles you would use VSFilter to draw your ASS script onto the video and then encode to MPEG2.



It sounds like it'd be better and possibly easier to softsub those subtitles onto a DVD.Depends on your workflow but I think it's not wrong to say: yes, softsubbing is easier if your subtitles contain more advanced formattings such as text not always centered on the bottom.


What steps will I need to softsub rather than hardsubbing? Programs?You take your finished ASS script and draw it onto your final-but-not-yet-encoded video using, for example, VSFilter's Textsub("mysubtitles.ass") in AviSynth.



If I was you I would try GUIforDVDauthor for authoring. With GUIforDVDauthor you're never going to have re-encoding issues, your input will be kept as is (which of course on the other hand requires you to produce DVD-compliant MPEG2 video and audio!).


So I think instead I am leaning towards finding individual programs to do different jobs.In my opinion almost certainly always a good choice. Takes longer but the result is usually better.

[manono]

Do you mean that you don't know how to get italics on some lines into SSA (or .ass) format , or do you mean you don't know of a way to get italics onto some lines for ANY subtitle format?
I mean I create SSA subs for use in MaestroSBT to make SST subs for use in Muxman. Any italics and positioning set in the SSA file are preserved. What I don't know is whether or not any all-in-one encoding/menu creation/authoring programs accept SSA subs as input as I don't use any of them.

If you were to make a Muxman authored DVD (the free version doesn't support menu creation) that DVD can later be used to replace a DVD you made without subs but with menus, if you used an all-in-one program, one such as AvsToDVD, probably the best of such programs. I'm not suggesting you do it that way, necessarily, as MaestroSBT can be tricky to use for a newcomer, but I do that all the time - stick Muxman authored DVDs into a different DVD I made using DVDAuthorGUI so I could at the same time make menus. The idea behind doing it in such a round-about way is so I can wind up with the subtitles I want, looking how I want them to look.

In my opinion almost certainly always a good choice. Takes longer but the result is usually better.
I agree 100%.

[lorry]

Edit by manono: One more spam post from you and you're gone.