My test of 90 Minute CD-R discs are complete

[markrb]

I have just finished the final test of my new 90 minute/800mb CD-R discs and the results are encouraging. By far the weakest link in my chain is my Pioneer 343 DVD player. While I am able to burn 930 mb's of a bin file on a disc, my player will only work with up to 906 mb's. This is still a jump of almost 80 mb's over what I could get on my 80 minute/700 mb discs.
I tried using CDRWIN to burn the disc, but I kept getting an error about a bad line in the .cue file, although it looked fine to me. I suspect the time listed was out of it's range or something causing it to show an error. When I lowered the size of the file to see if it would work anything under 850 loaded without an error. VCDeasy worked perfect at any size.

Remember your mileage may vary greatly. 90 and 99 minute discs are not supported by all burners and not all cdr software will work with them, not to mention the need to have your DVD player be able to work with them as well.

Mark

[chainsaw135]

Yeah you can fit 76megs more then I can overburn when I do 80 minute cdr's. So if the price is right I might get some 90's, but right now im' buying 80 minute cdr's for $7.99 for a pack of 50:)

Tho I'll have to get a few 90's just to see if my dvd player can hang with that type of overburn, but either way its nice to see such tests being done and posted on this site.

[markrb]

I went on a disc hunt for awhile. I couldn't find any place online selling less then 100 discs without charging a fortune for shipping. I found 1 place that wanted a reasonable $19.99 for 50 discs, but they wanted an insane $15.00 for shipping. I ended up getting a 100 pack for $59.99 and no tax or shipping charges. What I really like about them is they are blank. No writting on them at all except for a number in the middle next to the spindle. So there is no fighting with a company logo. I will keep using my 80 minute discs that I got for next to nothing (200 for like $10 after rebates) for most conversions. I will save these for those videos that an increase of 160 mb's over 2 discs will stop me from needing a third without dropping the bitrate below what I find acceptable.
Just another choice in the never ending saga of DVD2SVCD.

Mark

[fletch]

Hi markrb,

Are there 90 min & 99 min CD-R's ? I have the 99min/870MB CD-R's on order, just interested to see if we are talking about the same thing...

I also have a Pioneer DVD (DV-535) , I hope ( :rolleyes: ) that it'll read the FULL content od the new discs...

EDIT: Interesting link - http://www.disc4you.com/news/99min.html

Cheers

fletch

[markrb]

Yes there are both 90 and 99 minute discs around.
In my case the DVD player refused to read the last 24 or so megabytes encoded on the disc. It would just reach a certain point and the jump back to the start of the chapter over and over again.
My discs were 800mb 90 minute discs.

BTW that link is in the Q + A.

Mark

[Labersack]

I tried using CDRWIN to burn the disc, but I kept getting an error about a bad line in the .cue file, although it looked fine to me. I suspect the time listed was out of it's range or something causing it to show an error.
I had the same problem. It came every time when in the .cue is an index later than 79:59.
Maybe it's because in the ATIP no disk can have a bigger nominal capacity than 79:59. I just deletetd all indexes over 79:59 and it worked well with WinCDR. Of course you lose the last few chapters-settings on your SVCD

btw: I have the same 99 CDRs from disc4you.
The ATIP is
ATIP: 97m 32s 19f
Disc Manufacturer: Prodisc Technology Inc.
Reflective layer: Dye (Short strategy; e.g. Phthalocyanine)
Media type: CD-Recordable
Recording Speeds: min. unknown - max. unknown
nominal Capacity: 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f / LBA: 359849)

[Mozart]

Hi,

information took from vcdimager manual:

1.1 Features
Features of the back-end library, on which all front-ends rely, include:
(...)
Supports 99 minute CD-R media(...though most devices will have problems with such an out-of-specification media. You may want use the `--sector-2336' option for images longer than 80 minutes)
(...)


maybe such information has its value (I don't have such media. Thus, I cannot test this set. Worth a try).

[markrb]

Has anyone tested 2336 sectors and if so have you had any problems with either your PC or DVD player?
I will try it the moment I get a chance.

Selling my house and using the next few weeks to spruce it up a bit. Much Work and no real end in sight.


Mark

[hooley]

I burn my svcd's successfully on 99 min cd, my Apex 1500 plays them all no problem. And at only 99 bucks you can't beat it:D

[markrb]

hooley that's great, but you never mentioned how big the bin file you are burning and reading correctly is. If it's anything under 907mb I can do that too.

Mark

[LynchEyes]

I have (several times) succesfully burned 990MB on 99min CDR's using an LG-8160B and Nero at 8X, and have no problems playing the SVCD on my Apex-1500. It's nice to keep long movies down to just 2 CD's.
:)

[Vader]

There is an easy way to find out if your VCD/SVCD/DVD player will support 80min + discs. Take a look at your player or the manual for the player, see if you can find anything saying DVCD, DVCD is the unofficial (official in China though) standard for supporting discs up to 100 minutes.
All VCD/SVCD playerers made in China dating back about 12-15 months are DVCD ie. 100min+ compatible.
I have several VCD 2.0 films of 93-99 minutes on just 1 disc.

//Cheers

[hooley]

the bin size is just over 1 meg. I'm doing another movie (Blade Runner)right now so I'll let you know the true size. I use VCDeasy to burn the bin file to a 99 min cd (a 2 hour movie will fit on 2 99 min cd's

[hooley]

Also I use a old Mitsumi 4x burner to burn my svcd's as it can easily overburn to 99.5

[Sockpuppet-uk]

I recently did a rip of dinosaurs (disney) to a 99 min cd as the film was only 77 mins long but only encoded to 89 min 40 secs as my Teac burner will only burn to this.
I did a 4 pass vbr with TS on and the quality was outstanding.
Cdrwin gave me the same error but I just edited the cue file and took off the last 2 lines and it burned fine.
I used Infinity brand and they play in my Scan 2000 no problem.
A link to compatible burners: http://www.medeainternational.com/info/90min.htm

[chainsaw135]

Not to post off topic. But to help your speeds sockpuppet-uk You should try not using Ts when doing multipass vbr 3 or 4. You will find the results awsome and save you loads of time.

[hooley]

Well I finally encoded Blade Runner to svcd and the 2 bin files are 1.054 in size which I can burn successfully to 99 min Cd's

[mkanar]

FYI:

The longer the CD-r disc, the slower the speed one needs to write to the CD-r disc. You see, CD-R/W drives have a difficult time positioning the laser near the outer edge of the disc. Often, a computer CD drive can read a long CD-r disc fine (although probably a bit slow at the end) while a DVD/SVCD player cannot read the data at all or more commonly, cannot maintain the 2x (300KB/sec) datarate that is needed in playing an SVCD disc.

I had a PLEXTOR 12x CD-RW drive, very reputable! However, I found that my DVD/SVCD players had a very difficult time reading the end of 80 minute discs, thus making the discs useless to me as the end of the disc was unwatchable.

I have sold my PLEXTOR and purchased a 16x Lucky Goldstar LG GCE-8160B 16x10x40 CD-RW drive. This drive was one of the very first to support 99 minute disc recording but more importantly, it was the only writter that could write a 90+ minute disc with accuracy at 8x. Other drives are mostly too inaccurate at writing at the end of the disc, assuming that they don't just fail all-together. Anyhow, I routinely write 82.5 minutes onto 80 minute cheap-o CD-r discs with my LG 8160B drive and for SVCDs, I have never had a problem writing or reading these discs! I haven't even tried past 82.5 minutes yet...I may be able to get more, but this of course depends not on the drive, but the media which is often a little bit larger than the specified size.

There is a good introduction article to this on Tom's Hardware page at http://www4.tomshardware.com/storage/01q3/010830/index.html.

[jruben4]

I was able to burn 99 min cds (compusa brand) with my Teac 24x using nero - no issues. Works fine on my pioneer standalone DVD player.

[markrb]

jruben4 how many megabytes and what Pioneer player?

Mark

[fletch]

My Ridata 100 pack of 99min discs arrived today - I will post my SVCD results in the next few days.

Mitsumi 4804 Burner
Pioneer DV-535 Stand-Alone Player


jruben4: I am keen to know also what Pioneer player you are using ...

Fletch

[fletch]

OK, here's where I'm at with my attempts to write and play SVCD's using 99 minute discs.

Note: I'm using a MITSUMI CR-4804TE burner and stand-Alone Pioneer DV-535.
Blank media is RIDATA 99min CD-R's

1st attempt - set CD size to 999 in bitrate tab - produced 2 x 1031 meg bin files - Burnt first image using VCDEasy without problems. When played back on my Pioneer DV-535, disc would play fine until last few minutes where it would start to loop.. Back to the drawing board...

2nd Attempt - Set CD size to 950 in bitrate tab - produced 2 x 981 meg files - Again , playback problems with last few minutes of the disc on my Pioneer player...

3rd Attempt - Set CD size to 935 in bitrate tab - produced 2 x 956 meg files - played back perfectly in my Pioneer player all the way thru to the Change CD picture :)

A setting of between 935 & 940 in bitrate tab will produce the maximum bin image size that the Pioneer DV-535 will handle.

Cheers

Fletch

[markrb]

I wonder if the extra size of the 99 minute discs over the 90 minute ones gave you that extra 50 or so megabytes that I am not able to do or is it a player difference.

Mark

[fletch]

I don't think there is a great deal of differenece between the 2 Pioneer models - The internal cd mechanisam is probably similar (if not the same) from model to model.

I would imagine the difference is in the 99min media.

Try out a 99 min disc, I'd be interested to what the max files size your DVD player can handle.

Fletch

[jruben4]

I have been setting DVD2SVCD to "850 megs" for the disc size - the BIN files turn out in the 870-890 meg range. Nero burns these fine to my compusa 99 min discs - but CDRWIN will not (gives me the incorrect syntax error in the cue file that has been mentioned previously).

I have the Pioneer DV-343 - and it reads the 99 min discs fine - I tested it all the way to the end - no problems reading the whole disk.

The only problem is DVD2SVCD does not seem to divide the movie between to two disks (if I set it for a 2 disk size) as evenly as it used to with 800meg disk sizes. I've been able to fit the second BIN on a standard 80min disk usually, despite the first BIN being sized correctly for a 99min disk.

-J

[fletch]

Hi jruben4,

Is there a reason you are not filling up your 99 min discs completely ? You can if fact burn a bin image of about 1030 megs onto a 99 min disc (if your burner supports that) then you may see some playback problems on your Pioneer. Try experimenting by setting a CD size of 900 and see if it plays back ok. If it does, increase it by say, 5 meg each time until you find the maximum size your DVD player will read.

Also, if referenece to your second disc not being full, is it because the movie you are encoding is relatively short (IE: 90 mins) ? Try playing around with the minimum bitrate settings on shorter films to fill the disc.

Cheers

fletch

[jruben4]

No, these are not short films - all over two hours. It's always the last disc is smaller - on a three disk set, the third CD is less than the 850 megs, but the first two are equal and around 850 megs. With a two disk set, the first is 850 and the second is smaller.

I'll try to set it at 900 megs and see if it works in my pioneer DVD.

[markrb]

Remember that the final image should be around 6mb's larger then what you set the tab for. If the others here tests are correct you should be able to set the tab at about 940mb or greater without a problem for 99 minute cd's.
If I was doing it my first test would be at a setting of 950mb.

Anyone want to trade 4 or 5 99 minute discs for 4 or 5 90 minute discs? Only in the US though. Or I can buy 4 or 5 discs. PM me if you can. I would sure like to see what I can do with 99 minute discs and I can't afford another 100 pack right now.

Mark

[MotoX71]

I know this is a little off topic and me being a little like a newbie being a simple question. When your overburning an 800mb cd, what do you set dvd2svcd at to get something that is burnable? I've tried setting bitrate at 830 and 825, getting errors in burning each time i try to burn the image in fireburner or just the mpg file with nero. I'm tring 815 right now, but won't know if that works until tomorrow sometime since my slow comp with 4 pass vbr takes about a day or so.

mitsumi 4804te 2.8c burner will overburn up to 99+ mins and the media is cheap butt 800mb cdrs.

MotoX71

[mkanar]

quoted from fletch:

1st attempt - set CD size to 999 in bitrate tab - produced 2 x 1031 meg bin files - Burnt first image using VCDEasy without problems. When played back on my Pioneer DV-535, disc would play fine until last few minutes where it would start to loop.. Back to the drawing board...

...

A setting of between 935 & 940 in bitrate tab will produce the maximum bin image size that the Pioneer DV-535 will handle.


What speed did you write at? It is very likely that your burner is having a very difficult time positioning the laser at the end of the CD-r disc. If you haven't already, write it at the slowest speed your recorder supports and give it a try.

MotoX71:

Download VCDEasy (http://www.vcdhelp.com/vcdeasy.htm#download) and/or Nero/latest version. In both applications, you will need to select the 'allow overburn' option.

Every 80 minute disc type is different....one might overburn to 82 minutes and another might overburn to 81.5 minutes...I haven't done any studies to find the average length, nor does there exist a matrix with this information that I know of.... however, I have always had success with Nero and CDRDAO (VCDEasy is a GUI for this) with 80 minute CD-r discs @ 82 minutes length with my LG 8160B 16x CD-rw drive....my Plextor 12x SCSI however could not position the lasers near the end of the disc, so everything past maybe 76 minutes was too difficult for the reading laser to read for playback.

MKanar

[MotoX71]

Thanks mkanar, I set dvd2svcd at 815mb for cd size and it burned sucessfully tonight, 81:22 was the final time I believe. Although I haven't found the exact point at witch my cdr will burn to, a bitrate of + or - 20-30 really doesn't make a hoot of differance when compared to the few days to try and figure that one out. I guess I just need to get a dvd player, still waiting on best buy to give me my $130 in rebates i have coming.

MotoX71

[jruben4]

Mark -

I got a box of 16 99min (24x) CDR's from compusa (compusa brand) for 9.99.

-J

[markrb]

Great I will look there as soon as I get a chance. The closest CompUSA is an hour each way for me so it I am not able to just pop by without being sure they carry them. I looked at their website, but they didn't have them so I assumed the store didn't either.

Thanks,
Mark

[Bob01605]

Like some of you I have tested 90 Min CD-R's. I recently did "The Mummy" which is 2 hours and 4 minutes long. I would normally be putting this movie on 3 Cd-R's to keep the bit rate up since I normally use 224 sound. Using just TWO of the 90 min disks I was able to keep the CCE bitrate on a 4 pass VBR encode at 1733 on this 2.35 to 1 movie. I used Nero 5.5.7.2 to burn the bin/cue. The bin files were 928 and 927 meg and the disk played perfectly all the way to the end on my Pioneer 525 standalone.

I will also be testing 99 min CD-R's also. I found a place in California selling the new 99 min CD-R's for just $30 per 50. With shipping to Massachusetts, the total bill was $39.85 for the 50 disks. Seems like a great price for the new 99 min disks! Check them out at ..

http://www.yesbuy.net/9099mincdrsi.html

Bob

[markrb]

Called all the CompUSA stores within a 50 mile radious of my house. Everyone of them said they had the 99 minutes cdr discs in stock, but when they actually went to look for them none of the stores could find them. Two of the stores computers said they had over 30 packs in stock. I ended up buying a 100 pack from an online place that I found in pricewatch after doing a search for 870mb. They cost $60 for 100 plus $7.75 shipping.

I tried to burn using the 2336 sectors in VCDEasy, but it made no difference at all. Still a max file size of 906mb on my 90 minute discs. I should have the 99 minute discs at my house no later then Friday to test them. I will post my results when I get them.

Mark

[Bob01605]

"Still a max file size of 906mb on my 90 minute discs"

Mark,

This must be some type of limit on your burner. Again, using Nero 5.5.7.2 I can burn bin files (using write overburn ) up to at least 928 mb on a 90 min (800 mb disk) and the disk is playable on both my Pioneer 525 and Apex AD-1500 right to the end.
I know many people don't like Nero but this new version 5.5.7.2 seems to work very smooth with the 90 min disks. My 99 min disks are in the mail - I will also give them a try.

Bob

[markrb]

I can burn much higher. It's my DVD player that won't play the disc if any more then 906mb is burned. I am hoping that by getting a 99 minute disc I can burn about 950mb's and still have my DVD player read it ok.

I can actually burn a 930mb file no problem on my 90 minute discs.
My Pioneer 343 DVD player will only play up to 906mb correctly, even with 2336 sectors checked in VCDEasy.

I have a test video and Nero 5.5.7.2 so I will give that a shot with the 90 minute discs.

Mark

[markrb]

I got a little fed up with my Pioneer DVD player yesterday when it refused to play the last few seconds of a SVCD that worked fine just a few days before. This was one of my 906mb burned discs.
So I got on the internet and started looking for one of those Apex players that everyone raves about at vcdhelp.com. I found three different models at a CC about an hour from my house. I made up a couple of quick test discs (one at CBR 2900 and one with 912mb's on it), went to the local store and bam they didn't have them setup to test. I ended up picking up two of them intending on returning one when I decided which one to keep. The CC associate even suggested that I do this. I picked up the 1500 (single disc) and the 5131(3 disc turntable) models.
So far the 5131 is out dueling the 1500. Both play the 2900 bitrate discs perfect, but the 1500 croaks on the overburned 90 minute disc, while the 5131 plays it perfect. I will test both further. I really like the fact that I can make a 3 disc very high bitrate encode and never have to leave my chair.
Also both Apex models show the correct time, even when PBC is enabled.

This testing proves to me even more that the ability to play overburned discs really has to be in your DVD player as long as your cd-r burner can burn them.

This 3 disc player cost $30 less then my single disc Pioneer 343 player. I only paid $129 at CC for it and you might be able to find it cheaper, but I didn't look very hard.

I have 30 days to decide what I am going to do and you can be sure I will use them to test as good as I can.

Mark

[Bob01605]

"the 1500 croaks on the overburned 90 minute disc"

Hmmm - strange my Apex AD-1500 has played EVERY 90 min overburned ( 928 mb or so bin file ) disk right to the end to the "Change Cd" photo. My AD-1500 is a "D" serial #. The Apex AD-1500 that have serial # beginning with A, B, C, or D are completely different inside than the newer ones which have a serial # starting with an "SV". Maybe you have an "SV" serial # ?
The A, B, C and D serial #s are also flash ROM upgradable to a no region, no macrovision situation. Mine has been flashed .. maybe that has something to do with why it plays the 90 min disks fine ?? Not sure here ?? The "SV" serial # AD-1500's, by the way, can't be flashed ..

Bob

[markrb]

The unit's serial number starts with an "A". Is this a really old unit?
I will test the disc again and try another one just in case it had a problem with only that disc.
In my first test the 5131 played about 8 minutes more of the disc that the 1500 did not. On the 1500 I could hear the mechanism moving wildly looking for the track when it froze.

I really don't care about being able to flash the unit since I never get other region discs and my Pioneer I can change the region with the remote. So if I ever do I will just use that unit.

Mark

[markrb]

I just did another test disc. This time I made the disc 928mb and the wierd thing is both Apex units played them all the way to the end. My Pioneer as expected didn't.

I did notice when doing a direct compare between both the Apex models and the Pioneer that the Apex units seemed to add some blue to the picture. It isn't really noticable until I did a direct compare against my Pioneer. I made two of the same disc and had both units fed into a switcher and ran them at about the same time. I would switch from unit to unit. I also switched discs just incase it was on the disc, but it was the same.

Mark

[mrbass]

I've heard that before from two people who've owned Apex DVD players. After purchasing Pioneer DVD players they were amazed at the picture quality improvement over their Apex.

[markrb]

I think I am going to keep the Apex 5131 since I can load 3 cdr discs of 928mb each and with just a hit of a button on the remote I can watch all three. The picture is good enough, although the color is a little off, but oh the convience. A little bit of extra blue VS. being able to keep my butt in the chair for the whole movie. I choose my butt.
I will keep my Pioneer for DVD playing only.

Mark

[jruben4]

Using nero and compusa 99min discs, I set DVD2SVCD to make 900meg files, and it made 929meg BIN files - which were burnable with my TDK 24x and playable all the way to the end on my standalone pioneer DVD player.

-J

[MikeReid]

hey..i hate to bring up this old post, and I have searched the forum, but am still not quite convinced.

my question is if I am using 99-min media (i have the LITEON 40x which supports overburn beyond 99-min), what bitrates, options do i use?

Q39 : Can I overburn on 90 min CD-R discs?
A:http://www.disc4you.com/news/99min.html
http://www.vcdhelp.com/cdrewriterscomparison.htm
Just put in 900 in the bitrate tab for 90min cd if your cd-burner supports it.

Now, naturally, I assume for all CD Size I would put 990 ?? am I correct?

also, being that I have never played with these fields, do I have to change the Between X and X mins as well??

I hate to sound stupid, but the whole 99-min category is a new process to me...

i assumed i would just change to:

between     0 and   50 use 1 CD Size 900
between   50 and   95 use 1 CD Size 900
between   95 and  120 use 2 CD Size 900
between 120 and 190 use 2 CD Size 900
between 190 and 225 use 3 CD Size 900
between 225 and 9999 use 3 CD Size 900


anyway, I couldn't find anything as specific as i'd liked, so hopefully someone can help me here....

thanks guys!

[Bubba]

Mike,

It depend what you want to do. Are you going for quality (i.e. high bitrate) or quantity (i.e. squeeze more min. per CD)? The default bitrate screen should look like this:

between 0 and 50 use 1 CD Size 740 ? - 1880
between 50 and 95 use 1 CD Size 800 2045 - 1296
between 95 and 120 use 2 CD Size 740 2515 - 1877
between 120 and 190 use 2 CD Size 800 2042 - 1065
between 190 and 225 use 3 CD Size 740 2219 - 1714
between 225 and 9999 use 3 CD Size 800 1866 - ?

The last column is the bitrate range. This will change when you change the "CD size" column or the "min." column. So if you go for "quality", and use 90-min & 99-min CD exclusively, you can change to:

between 0 and 50 use 1 CD Size 900
between 50 and 95 use 1 CD Size 990
between 95 and 120 use 2 CD Size 900
between 120 and 190 use 2 CD Size 990
between 190 and 225 use 3 CD Size 900
between 225 and 9999 use 3 CD Size 990

So if you go for "quantity" (i.e. more minute), then change the "CD size" column. For example:

between 0 and 60 use 1 CD Size 900
between 60 and 120 use 1 CD Size 990

Or any combination of 740, 800, 900, and 990. DVD2SVCD will use the bitrate according to what you set.

For me, I'm using the 90-min & 99-min CD to squeeze more min. since I'm pretty much satisfied with the default bitrate values, and so I just change the "min." column accordingly.

Cheers,

[MikeReid]

Beautiful!! I really appreciate that!!

thanks bubba!

[theblaze74]

I have a 16x10x40x Lite On burner, and a spindle of 99 minute cds.

What should I set dvd2svcd to? 990? Does this mean 990 megs? 99 Minutes?
I did this, and it created a 1,020,269kb bin file. Why the descrepancy? I am testing now to see if it will burn.
----------------------------------------

I have successfully burned an svcd after having set dvd2svcd to 910.

Has anyone burned a file larger than (dvd2svcd set to 910)?

[Labersack]

1,020,269kb =996MB
The factor between kb amd mb is 1024, not 1000.
The max possible size depends on your CDR brand and you burner.
Try a search, there was a thread about exactly this point.

[Dreassica]

Does anyone in here have experience with Datatrack 99 min. CD-r's or Parrot 99 min. with SVÇd's on standalone DVD players?/ I want to buy a spindle of either, but i am not certain if it wil work?/ I have a lENCO DVD-02a player, which can play 90 min. perfectly, so if someone has that one it will be even better!