Tron: Legacy lossless audio

[ramicio]

I have the 2D disc and the DTS-HD Master, in all channels, is clipped to -2 dB. Pretty crappy... People need to be held responsible for their actions and stuff like this should be replaced. I have no idea about the other audio tracks. I guess the loudness war has now reached cinema.

http://timramich.com/tron-clipped.png

[Ghitulescu]

Only if the distortions are audible :)

[ramicio]

How is clipping not audible? Maybe people don't "notice" it because there is not a non-clipped version to compare it to. Not audible implies it is out of the range of human hearing... Please don't start these kind of pissing-match arguments.

[Ghitulescu]

Hearing is subjective.
As you said, there's no unclipped version to compare with, this is a silent statement that it may not be heard unless told so or compared to.
Tron legacy is floating for a while, yet nobody complained about. Either you have a defective batch, or it went unnoticed.
I'm not starting an argument, I said that if one needs to use charts and comparison tests, then the chances are the distortions not be noticed (or to be taken as SciFi effects). Don't know, I don't have tron legacy. Lots of people swear on MP3 = WAV, even on ABX tests, yet they are different.

From my BD collection (will be soon in 3 digits range), all HD audio tracks were less loud than I got used from DVDs (still above the EBU requirements though).

[ramicio]

1. I can easily hear clipping when I play 5.1 over stereo with mixing done to 100% on each channel.
2. When one spends their money on something that is supposed to be the best format out there, something like this should not be overlooked.
3. Nobody would complain because this generation doesn't give two licks about quality, they just care about the emotional aspect of everything. This generation is fine listening to 64 kbps music on crappy Apple ear-buds.

Why is quality a niche market, and this niche is becoming less of a right? There used to be the quick way to do things, with less quality, while there was also a more expensive side of things with utmost quality. Well now there is no offering of such quality, just one version for all the masses of idiots and technical people.

I don't think it went unnoticed...I think they were trying to have the loudest sound track around.

[Ghitulescu]

I agree with you on all counts, except that is the bulk of the people the one that, at least in theory, has something to say. When hundreds of idiots complain to eg Humax about the inability of its SAT-receiver to play AVIs (of unkown source :)), the marketing dept. will focus all the energy to do this (if the receiver is still under development) despite the urgent need for eg a functional EPG. They are rather willing to loose few intelligent customers than to loose hundreds of stupid ones. That's democracy. And arithmetic.

Everything that brings money is sooner or later exploited. And luxury articles (read quality) has always been "taxed". Quality is a luxury.

[Lyris]

Isn't this an intentional stylistic thing? Isn't some of the music clipped to give it a synthetic, electronic feel?

[ramicio]

I'd hope not. It's really extreme.

[ramicio]

I got a chance to watch it this weekend. It officially sounds like COMPLETE crap. It is no them doing this to affect the music. It happens to all sounds. Mostly bass. I don't find sound distorted by clipping to be anything artistic.

[hello_hello]

How is clipping not audible? Maybe people don't "notice" it because there is not a non-clipped version to compare it to. Not audible implies it is out of the range of human hearing...

"Not audible" implies it's there, but not enough for you to hear it.

I can easily hear clipping when I play 5.1 over stereo with mixing done to 100% on each channel.

Everyone can hear clipping, how much clipping there needs to be before you can hear it, well that's another story. Digital clipping is usually pretty obvious, but the amount of analogue clipping which can go unnoticed is usually much higher.
How is your 5.1 clipped when it's mixed to stereo? And by how much?

[Ghitulescu]

... Digital clipping is usually pretty obvious, ....

Not always, it depends how it was clipped and what kind of signal was clipped. Cheap/bad acquisition cards yield more "obvious" artefacts, even at short peaks, because the convertor resets itself when it reaches the max. value. Pro cards flatten the curve and this will be noticed only at wider peaks.

[ramicio]

Every channel is severely clipped before being mixed.

[hello_hello]

Not always, it depends how it was clipped and what kind of signal was clipped.

I'm fairly sure I said "usually" and not "always". Yep, I just checked, and that's what I said.

[Stereodude]

Every channel is severely clipped before being mixed.I only see the clipping in the front 3 channels, and it's only in sections where the heavily synthesized electronic music score is. It seems highly likely that the clipping is in the musical score by Daft Punk (intentionally to get the sound they wanted), and is not a result of overall poor mixing of the soundtrack.

[hello_hello]

Every channel is severely clipped before being mixed.

All 5.1ch audio is severely clipped before being mixed to stereo or just this particular disc?
So you can't hear this clipping until it's mixed to stereo?

[Ghitulescu]

I'm fairly sure I said "usually" and not "always". Yep, I just checked, and that's what I said.

We are not talking here about amateurs, they are supposed to be pro. They are paid to do ALWAYS a good job, not just USUALLY.

It's either a defective mix, or an intentional one (sort of Jimmy Hendrix :)). I tend to the first hypothesis.

I don't have this movie, I rely only on the info ramicio provided.

[ramicio]

It's just this disc, hence the hullabaloo. I can hear it even when mixed to not clip. I would buy it as something artistic if it only applied to the music, but it applies to all sound of the movie. The peaks are chopped off right at -2 dB. The screenshot in my opening post is that of a single channel. Which channel I can't remember, offhand.

[nurbs]

Does it only happen in the parts of the movie that are set in the computer world or also in the real world parts? If it's the former it could still be intentional.

[ramicio]

It's the whole movie. I'm not even sure the real world scenes had any sound loud enough compared to the computer world.

[nurbs]

When I wrote "it" I meant clipping that is not part of the music, I should have been more precise.

[ramicio]

Let me make this clear. They made their audio track. It would have been a great final product. BUT...then they literally clipped it to -2 dB and went with that.

[Ghitulescu]

What I think now is that they did mix the audio, someone did not notice the distortions (from the graph you provided it is obvious that the real peaks would reach some +6dB) nor the red CLIP, and simply normalised the track to 98% AFTER the damage was done. Something like Average Joe will do it (when backuping his CDs for instance), but it's inadmissible for a pro.

PS: I suppose it's an original Disney and not a bootleg ;)

[ramicio]

Yes, it is the real deal. You don't get bootlegs here in the US unless you are sourcing stuff on eBay from China, or buying it off some guy on the street in a city. I don't want to know how or why this may have happened, I want answers from Disney. Even if I did attempt to even contact them about this, I doubt I would get any results. They would simply say "screw you, return it to the store and make them take the hit if you don't like it."

[hello_hello]

We are not talking here about amateurs, they are supposed to be pro. They are paid to do ALWAYS a good job, not just USUALLY.

It's either a defective mix, or an intentional one (sort of Jimmy Hendrix :)). I tend to the first hypothesis.

FFS, whatever....
First we're talking about cheap cards v pro cards, all of which I took with a grain of salt because it came from you and I know you have a dentancy to make stuff up, and now it's amateurs v pros and intentional v accidental distortion.

But okay... digital clipping is no more audible than analogue clipping if it makes you happy.

According to Stereodude the clipping is only present in the front channels and only during the synthesised music score.

I just err... "acquired" a few of the audio files from the CD version in flac format to have a look. I couldn't see any clipping.

ramicio, I found another forum thread where a few people complained they could hear bad clipping in spots, even from the rear speakers, but only when playing the dts-HD master audio.
Others said they didn't hear any clipping at all, and from the way it was described by those who could hear it, I doubt too many people would fail to notice it if their sound systems were clipping too. One guy said he couldn't hear any clipping the first time through but the second time it was obviously there.
I wonder why?
http://www.htguide.com/forum/printthread.php4?t=38444&page=2&pp=35

[ramicio]

Yeah, this is the movie track, not the soundtrack of music for the movie. Maybe most people didn't hear it because everything they expose their selves to is clipped like this, anyway. Please don't start some BS HydrogenAudio-type psychological argument here about knowing it first and then hearing it because you know it's there. Not only does it sound like crap, but people even complained of it destroying speakers. It's pathetic that's how it was presented in theaters, too.

[Ghitulescu]

But okay... digital clipping is no more audible than analogue clipping if it makes you happy.
Are you dead serious?

And do you really think you can judge the movie soundtrack by hearing the CD, which is done in another facility, by another team, and using other sources?

[ramicio]

...and being just music, and not the literal sound from the movie.

[Ghitulescu]

I'm more and more convinced that the mixing engineer did his job well, but somehow, someone screwed the levels in the encoder, nobody checked the CLIP nor heard the control, then batch-feed it to normaliser and authored the BD, skipping again the full QC. Lousy job. But I bet the copy-protections were sound, Disney-like ;) ;) ;)

[ramicio]

Well seeing as how it sounded this way in theaters this has nothing to do with authoring it for Blu-ray. The fact that theater speakers were being blown, and it still gets no attention for the home release, is beyond pathetic. People didn't do their job. Compartmentalizing things just always hurts the end product. ONE person should be in charge of the audio, all the way from setting up the microphones for the filming, up to the last point of encoding to whatever is going to end up on the home release. But I guess it's too much to ask for anyone to learn more than one skill these days.

[hello_hello]

Are you dead serious?

Serious, joking... with some people there's no logical discussion either way. So are you now saying digital clipping is more audible than analogue clipping, or are you asking me if I'm serious for some other reason?

And do you really think you can judge the movie soundtrack by hearing the CD, which is done in another facility, by another team, and using other sources?

Well obviously not, but if the clipping was an intentional part of the music soundtrack, then it's possible the same clipping is present when using other sources. Likewise, if there's other audio tracks on the BluRay disc, it'd be interesting to know if they also have the same clipping at -2db.

[ramicio]

Seeing as how the theatrical audio is clipped exactly like the lossless tracks I would assume the lossy versions all came from the same thing.

[Ghitulescu]

In the theaters they use another sound format, I think it's SDDS. I don't think they used the same digital source 1:1 to blu-ray, I think they simply resampled the digital master once again and fed the encoder at the wrong level. Sort of unattended batch-conversion.

[ramicio]

Who knows how they did anything technically. The whole project just seems like a huge mess, technically, but kinda nice, artistically.

[Ghitulescu]

So are you now saying digital clipping is more audible than analogue clipping, or are you asking me if I'm serious for some other reason?

Because the analog clipping is much softer and untrained ears need at least +3dB to sense it. Digital clipping is instantly noticed (with bad cards) or needs a longer peak (for pro cards, like the graphs of ramicio).
Try yourself at home with a tape recorder and raise the level beyond the red line (or on the red zone) and see what I mean. Try then a digital recorder (DAT, CDR) and do the same.

Most people don't even like the music when no audio clipping were present (disco music was all that is was because of compression, which is a soft clipping). Tubes do clip, and this clipping is used to give warmth.

[hello_hello]

Yeah, this is the movie track, not the soundtrack of music for the movie.

I'm aware of that, but according to another poster the -2db clipping is only present in the actual audio during the parts where the soundtrack is predominant. Despite that, you and others say they can hear it from all speakers.

Maybe most people didn't hear it because everything they expose their selves to is clipped like this, anyway. Please don't start some BS HydrogenAudio-type psychological argument here about knowing it first and then hearing it because you know it's there. Not only does it sound like crap, but people even complained of it destroying speakers. It's pathetic that's how it was presented in theaters, too.

I'm doing exactly the opposite actually.
From the way the clipping was described it sounds like it's not possible to avoid hearing it if it's present because it sounds like the speakers are breaking up badly. Yet some posters claimed they had no clipping, while one poster said he only experienced it the second time and another said only when listening to the dst HD audio.
So I wondered why it's not consistent for everyone.
I also wondered if the other audio tracks on the disc have the same -2db clipping, and if so why listening to it doesn't result in hearing the same clipping listening to the HD audio does.

I don't recall reading anything about theatre speakers being destroyed. Was that from the thread I posted a link to?

[ramicio]

Yes, multiple people said about theater speakers being destroyed.

[hello_hello]

Because the analog clipping is much softer and untrained ears need at least +3dB to sense it. Digital clipping is instantly noticed (with bad cards) or needs a longer peak (for pro cards, like the graphs of ramicio).
Try yourself at home with a tape recorder and raise the level beyond the red line (or on the red zone) and see what I mean. Try then a digital recorder (DAT, CDR) and do the same.

Speaking of are you serious.....
I initially said digital clipping is usually more audible than analogue clipping, but being an expert on everything you of course had to argue about it, yet now you're telling me analogue clipping is much softer on the ears than digital clipping and is less noticeable after-all.
Another typical discussion where you contradict yourself while you make up your mind which point you're trying to make.

I don't need to try anything at home. I've used all sorts of digital and analogue audio equipment for many years.

[Ghitulescu]

It appears that every single statement I made, I end with explaining you something, in another one's thread, with mostly off-topic issues. I think that a mod must intervene and ban your 2nd, 3rd and so on accounts.

Get a life. Get a textbook. Get some field experience. Please stop this philosophical twisting logic, only for the sake of argument. Please understand that in theory the praxis is equal to theory, just that in praxis the things are a lil'bit different :).

There is no analog clipping here. Your experience (sorry if I laugh here) should have told you this. All that one can see from the graphs ramicio posted, is digital clipping on a pro solution. A PERFECT digital clipping. Ideal classroom teaching material.

Nevertheless I tried to save you from ignorance, but I promise so many times I'll ignore you ...

[Stereodude]

Okay, so I had more time to look at it closer. The clipping is in all channels except the LFE, but it's mostly in the front 3 channels. It doesn't seem to be limited to the the music either. Apologies for the incorrect information earlier

[Stereodude]

The French DD5.1 has the same problem as the English DTS-MA7.1. The English DD2.0 doesn't seem to be clipped.

English DTS-MA 7.1:
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/7540/english71.th.png (http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/7540/english71.png)

French DD 5.1:
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/350/french51.th.png (http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/350/french51.png)

[Ghitulescu]

Definitely wrong levels fed into the encoder, in a batch, unattended process. Did they outsource the sound engineers, too? :)

[hello_hello]

It appears that every single statement I made, I end with explaining you something, in another one's thread, with mostly off-topic issues.

What is it which enables you to post something which is blatantly untrue while believing nobody will notice? Do you think colouring in your words makes a lie the truth?

I made the statement: "Digital clipping is usually pretty obvious, but the amount of analogue clipping which can go unnoticed is usually much higher."
You did the arguing because you had to contradict what was a general statement as you always have to know more. "Not always, it depends how it was clipped and what kind of signal was clipped."
And once again, you were disagreeing with something I never said. I never said "always".
Then you finished off by explaining to me what I said in the first place. "analog clipping is much softer and untrained ears need at least +3dB to sense it. Digital clipping is instantly noticed (with bad cards) or needs a longer peak (for pro cards, like the graphs of ramicio)."
And finally you've convinced yourself it was me doing the arguing, and as usual believing you've explained something to me I already knew. You explained nothing to me.

Get a life. Get a textbook. Get some field experience. Please stop this philosophical twisting logic, only for the sake of argument. Please understand that in theory the praxis is equal to theory, just that in praxis the things are a lil'bit different :).

Maybe if you had a life yourself and people listened to your opinion in the real world you wouldn't have such a subconscious need to post here without anyone disagreeing with you.
Once again, your apparent need to know more than anyone else has you just making it up as you go and posting ridiculous assumptions as fact. Do you think 15 years of mixing live music for a living qualifies me as having had some field experience?

There is no analog clipping here. Your experience (sorry if I laugh here) should have told you this. All that one can see from the graphs ramicio posted, is digital clipping on a pro solution. A PERFECT digital clipping. Ideal classroom teaching material.

ramicio made a statement about easily being able to hear clipping when 5.1ch audio is mixed to stereo, I made a comment about digital v analogue clipping and asked how the 5.1ch was being mixed to stereo.
At the time I was also wondering whether the digital clipping in the audio is the same clipping he's hearing when the 5.1ch is mixed to stereo. You even wondered yourself at the time whether the clipping in the audio would be audible.
"Hearing is subjective. As you said, there's no unclipped version to compare with, this is a silent statement that it may not be heard unless told so or compared to."
Obviously the graphs ramicio posted show digital clipping, so if you now want to pretend I was suggesting otherwise as though it gives you an argument to offer.... well it's appropriate to laugh... I certainly am.... but once again the joke's on you.

Nevertheless I tried to save you from ignorance, but I promise so many times I'll ignore you ...

I wish you would. It would have saved all your usual stating of the obvious and the arguing over semantics you once again started in this thread. But saying you'll ignore me seems to be just one of the numerous untruths you regularly post.

[hello_hello]

The French DD5.1 has the same problem as the English DTS-MA7.1. The English DD2.0 doesn't seem to be clipped.

Which leaves the question.... why is the clipping so noticeable when played using some audio/visual systems and not others?
I assume the posts I read in another forum where some posters claimed they heard no clipping are accurate, as by the way the clipping was described it'd probably be hard to miss. Is the clipping obvious to you when you listen to the DTS HD track?

I guess it might come down to some digital equipment being more tolerant of clipping than others, or maybe it's more to do with how capable digital equipment is of coping with a prolonged square wave (as opposed to actually being clipped)? Even though the audio was obviously clipped at some stage in the process, the peaks have been reduced to -2db, so I assume it's technically not clipping the playback equipment as such, even though if the equipment can't handle long square waves the end result might sometimes sound the same?
Just a thought.....

[Stereodude]

Which leaves the question.... why is the clipping so noticeable when played using some audio/visual systems and not others?
I assume the posts I read in another forum where some posters claimed they heard no clipping are accurate, as by the way the clipping was described it'd probably be hard to miss. Is the clipping obvious to you when you listen to the DTS HD track?I suspect it's because a lot of people wouldn't know good sound if it bit them in the rear. If your system has a lot of distortion in it already you're not likely to hear the distortion / clipping in the source.

Here's a better example of the clipping in the front 3 channels:
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8092/tlclipping1.th.png (http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8092/tlclipping1.png)

[Ghitulescu]

Most people don't see the AR distortions 4:3 -> 16:9 (they are not disturbed to see unnaturally fat people, because they assume it should be like this).
Most people don't see the interlacing artefacts
Most people don't see hue differences
Most people don't hear the differences between MP3 128 and WAV

These people have been properly trained by manufacturers, to sell them LoFi gear (at various prices), since they don't notice a thing anyway.

Most of these most people however can recognize (first under supervision, then also when left alone) most artefacts and distortions, if properly trained. The problem is that they are not trained in the right direction. I've did several tests, with various people, and I said it long time ago: it's like the hotel: you get only a ** room, and think that a ***** one is just a bit better, but way expensive. If someone pays for you a ***** room, you'll see the difference and get yourself easily accommodated. You'll most probably get difficulties reaccommodating to a ** room, and again most probably you'll try to get a superior room. But as long nobody gave you the opportunity to check-in a ***** room, you'll never notice how bad a ** room is.
As long as one hears a CD or any other audio medium on a 39$ 5.1 system - it really does not matter anyway.


And you still wonder why is this? :)

[hello_hello]

The ratio of people who post in audio forums regarding the possible distortion in movie soundtracks, and who would know what a ***** sound system sounds like, and would know whether their ***** sound system is breaking up like a ** sound system, would be considerably higher than the ratio of "most people", who don't ever post in those sorts of forums.

If there's several people in an audio forum claiming they can't hear the "speaker breaking up" kind of distortion which has been described here, and as no doubt many of them also consider themselves one of the audio elite who can pick an MP3 playing in their car sound system off the bat, then they're probably not experiencing the same level of distortion.

Silly generalisations about "most people" aside, hopefully the above explains why I wonder why the distortion problem isn't reported by more people posting in audio forums, and whether in this case the -2db audio clipping in the actual audio track cause problems for some equipment which it doesn't cause for others.

[ramicio]

This went downhill fast.

[setarip_old]

Just thought I'd share the following audio-related portion of the review of "Tron Legacy" by the folks at HiDef Digest:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/4684/tron_tronlegacy3d.html

Tron: Legacy

As awesome as the video transfer for 'Tron: Legacy' is, Disney has also provided a top of the line DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 soundtrack that will work your sound system to the max. Every single speaker will get a full workout. LFE effects are strong throughout, really pulling you into the action, and bass effects will shake your floor and wake the neighbors. Spoken dialogue is crystal clear and centered throughout, never being overpowered by the active sound and bass effects. The score by Daft Punk is on true display here, right from the start you know you're in for a fun ride. Overall, this is truly a 360 degree sound track, you'll feel drawn into the film and be blown away by the end result. (Audio score: 5/5)

[ramicio]

And that proves what?

[iSeries]

I think it shows that even if the soundtrack is hideously clipped, people aren't necessarily noticing. Most people don't stare at graphs analysing a film's soundtrack, they just enjoy the film.