Tron: Legacy lossless audio

[ramicio]

Good, for them. That's not me. I can't enjoy something that is technically terrible (eras are the exception.) A child's finger painting may be creative, but it's still total crap.

[iSeries]

Obviously, 'total crap' is highly subjective.

[Stereodude]

The ratio of people who post in audio forums regarding the possible distortion in movie soundtracks, and who would know what a ***** sound system sounds like, and would know whether their ***** sound system is breaking up like a ** sound system, would be considerably higher than the ratio of "most people", who don't ever post in those sorts of forums.

If there's several people in an audio forum claiming they can't hear the "speaker breaking up" kind of distortion which has been described here, and as no doubt many of them also consider themselves one of the audio elite who can pick an MP3 playing in their car sound system off the bat, then they're probably not experiencing the same level of distortion.No, they're the typical delusional audiophile who think they can hear differences in power cords, silver interconnects, and other nonsense, when the reality is their hearing actually sucks.

[Stereodude]

And that proves what?That you shouldn't trust anything else Steve Seebacher says about audio quality in the future. :devil:

[ramicio]

People being "experts" is more subjective than anything. I do like to read those reviews, but mainly for the picture quality info. Total crap is not something that is subjective to something a child calls art. They have imaginations. They are also impressionable, and they shouldn't be told to pursue something they suck at just because it might hurt their feelings. Encourage what someone is good at, not what they want to [but never will] be good at.

[setarip_old]

@ramicio And that proves what?C,mon - someone as knowledgeable as you KNOWS that the quote I provided clearly shows that the author of a fairly technical review that appeared in a highly respected digital magazine (specializing in HD videos) is of an opinion that is diametrically opposed to yours - whether or not there's actually some clipping.

In closing, I would embellish on Post #50 by iSeries - Most people don't stare at graphs analysing a film's soundtrack, they just enjoy the film. True audiophiles and "wannabes" are an entirely different story - and never the twains shall meet...

[ramicio]

"Specializing in HD videos"...last time I checked video wasn't audio. Theater speakers were blown, and other people complained. If I was one of these mindless idiots who watch or listen to something for the 100% reason of its artistic content I would just stream it. People tend to care more about instant delivery rather than quality these days.

[setarip_old]

"Specializing in HD videos"...last time I checked video wasn't audio.

I can only surmise this was your attempt at being humorous - since surely you know the last silent "video"/movie was made in the 1930s.

Bye...

[ramicio]

I wasn't being humorous and serious. Not every piece of information on that site is correct. So it's not only subjective, but some of it is wrong. No one is perfect. I can hear the clipping, I don't like it, and I think Disney, like all the record companies that spit out loud Rick Rubin produced CDs, owe their customers an explanation. What makes someone an expert enough to rate things? What about these food critics?...rating food based on a sense which is probably the most subjective one. It takes nothing but a degree, and a degree really means nothing other than 1. your family has money, and 2. you can brown nose people your way into success. Today, life is about who you know, not what you know.

[Ghitulescu]

Tron: Legacy

As awesome as the video transfer for 'Tron: Legacy' is, Disney has also provided a top of the line DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 soundtrack that will work your sound system to the max. Every single speaker will get a full workout. LFE effects are strong throughout, really pulling you into the action, and bass effects will shake your floor and wake the neighbors. Spoken dialogue is crystal clear and centered throughout, never being overpowered by the active sound and bass effects. The score by Daft Punk is on true display here, right from the start you know you're in for a fun ride. Overall, this is truly a 360 degree sound track, you'll feel drawn into the film and be blown away by the end result. (Audio score: 5/5)
Maybe there are several pressings? Maybe they realised the first pressing was defective and redone the audio (AFAIK Gladiator was rereleased with a new digitisation of video, at no costs for endusers)? Money suction strategies at Disney include rereleasing, several versions etc. etc. etc.
Did the reviewers mistakenly take the distortions for a sign of "digital" effects (metallic voice and the like) and not for a defective audio?

[hello_hello]

[Color=Blue]Just thought I'd share the following audio-related portion of the review of "Tron Legacy" by the folks at HiDef Digest:

I still can't help but wonder if the -2db clipping causes more audible distortion when played on some equipment than it does on others, and maybe that's why the review didn't mention it.

[Ghitulescu]

While peaks exceeding -3dB might be distorted on some systems, there is absolutely no way that a clipped audio, which is below 0dBFS, would be masked, or somehow even more distorted. The distortion is there, the analog headroom plays no role (because it's -2dB), so it remains what I've said:
-different pressings
-different ears
-different perception

I don't think a reviewer has such a bad system that its own distortions would mask the "positive" ones.

[ramicio]

Whadya know, they don't list the hardware for that particular reviewer person...

[Ghitulescu]

Whadya know, they don't list the hardware for that particular reviewer person...

Among the benefits the job of reviewer brings with, the possibility of receiving "testers" (and keeping them) is one of the nicest one. And these testers are no way cheap, nor bad (nobody cares to review a 29$ system, its price sells it :)). Their quality is at least medium (in the HiFi range). Of course it depends from country to country, and the prestige of the publication, what kind of gear may be offered for testing (and keeping).

[ramicio]

I don't know what any of that means.

Our Gear | High-Def Digest (http://www.highdefdigest.com/gear.html)

The reviewer for Tron is not listed there. Who knows what kind of equipment he was testing on.

[Ghitulescu]

Whadya know, they don't list the hardware for that particular reviewer person...

Just found it -> http://www.highdefdigest.com/gear.html .

Steve's gear is not listed there, but we can find it in the forum:
Thanks for the response, here is a list of my equipment and no, I am not using LCD so thankfully I can keep my reviewer license. I am using the Samsung PN50C7000 Plasma TV, Samsung BD-C6900, rechargeable 3D glasses, and my receiver is the Sony str-dn1010 along with Sony speakers included with the audio system. I will check on the model number for those.
Far, far away from the gear listed in the link above (his whole setup is probably worth only a single loudspeaker of his colleagues). It may explain why he didn't hear the distortions.

[ramicio]

Budget equipment and the combination of probably assuming that sound may be artistic.

[Ghitulescu]

Exactly my point.

[hello_hello]

While peaks exceeding -3dB might be distorted on some systems, there is absolutely no way that a clipped audio, which is below 0dBFS, would be masked, or somehow even more distorted. The distortion is there, the analog headroom plays no role (because it's -2dB), so it remains what I've said:

I never said analogue distortion is playing a role.
I never said the -2db clipping would be masked.
I did however wonder if it's possible some equipment can cope with prolonged square waves better than others, in which case some equipment would "distort it more" if it tries to reproduce the flat peaks but can't. Whether that's possible/likely, I'm not sure. Maybe it's not in the digital chain but in the amplified speaker chain. Maybe better quality speakers will flap around more trying to produce a square wave they can't physically reproduce because they're more responsive, or the amp is having a hard time trying to control the speakers (damping factor) while for brief periods they should in theory stop moving, while some speakers/amps don't, or they produce less additional distortion trying. Given the type of distortion it seems to be (either it's horrible or you can't hear it at all) maybe even the speaker box porting plays a part?
There's lots of factors which can effect the way audio is reproduced besides different pressings and different people's perceptions.

From the way I've heard the distortion described, it's something which sounds like the speakers are overloading or breaking up. I doubt too many people would own sound systems which sound so bad normally they can't hear spots where for a brief period it sounds like the speaker cones are flapping around. Is that the sort of distortion you're hearing ramicio, because it's the sort of distortion which seemed to be reported in the thread I linked to. One which sounds like something is "breaking up" quite badly... or one which can't be heard at all.

[ramicio]

I really don't understand your line of thinking. No matter how you listen to clipping, on speakers or headphones, loud or quiet, it will sound like breaking up, because the signal is broken! I wouldn't expect too many people to notice any kind of fine detail over speakers.

[hello_hello]

I really don't understand your line of thinking. No matter how you listen to clipping, on speakers or headphones, loud or quiet, it will sound like breaking up, because the signal is broken! I wouldn't expect too many people to notice any kind of fine detail over speakers.

It depends on where in the chain the signal is being clipped. Even a compressor or limiter will "break" the signal in a similar way, just not usually to the point where the peaks of the waveform are turned into a flat line. Similar clipping in an all analogue domain might be virtually unnoticeable.

Some "loud" CDs have peaks exceeding 0db but the source itself isn't actually clipped, however it might clip the playback equipment. In the case of this soundtrack, yes the waveform was clipped at some stage but it's not actually clipping the playback equipment because there's no peaks above -2db. It does however have peaks which are flat, but how audible that'd be might depend on the content of the audio. If it's synthesized music it might simply give the sound a little "edge" which wouldn't be heard as distortion as such (in the same way you don't listen to a distorted guitar sound and complain it's being clipped). If it's in sections where there's mainly speech it may become obvious because our ears are more sensitive to the distortion of some sources than others. If it's during percussive peaks some speakers might flap around more than others making the clipping more distorted.

So I'm wondering... assuming for the moment the clipping of the audio track itself isn't clipping a sound which would allow our ears to immediately hear it as distortion... if it's possible some equipment deals with the clipped waveform better than others.
If you look at the clipped waveform and pretend it's not "clipped" for a moment, but that's how it should be, how does a speaker reproduce it? And before it gets there.... crossovers..... I've really forgotten way too much audio theory.... but if a crossover divides an audio signal into frequency bands what does it do with the flat part of the signal? What about the other audio filters in each piece of equipment in the chain? Same question. Between the disc and the amplifier is the audio always purely digital? Is it processed/filtered by other devices in the audio chain?

I'm just saying that yes, the audio has been clipped, and yes, every sound system will reproduce sound differently to the next, and yes, everyone's perception when it comes to audio is different, but I think it might be way too simplistic to simply blame perception as to why some people can easily hear the distortion while others say they can't hear any.

[Ghitulescu]

I really don't understand your line of thinking.
You're not the only one, he's simply conducting pure mental experiments.

I suggest returning your BD back to the store, or wait/ask for an replacement action from Disney. While under the current laws one cannot bring back an unsealed multimedia disc, you can always argue that the disc is defective, and the only way of discovering this was to break the seal.

This is not a mainstream movie, it targets a specific customer segment, which generally have better gear than Steve - they are likely to hear it (once they notice this is not a SciFi effect) and probably they will act accordingly. Then Disney will be forced to reissue the BD.

[ramicio]

It is a mainstream movie (especially evident when they push something in IMAX or 3D), so Disney won't do crap about it. And it was a rental.

[hello_hello]

You're not the only one, he's simply conducting pure mental experiments.

Is there some other sort of experiment I can conduct which will allow you to participate?

This is not a mainstream movie, it targets a specific customer segment, which generally have better gear than Steve - they are likely to hear it (once they notice this is not a SciFi effect) and probably they will act accordingly. Then Disney will be forced to reissue the BD.

What sort of time frame do expect this specifically targeted consumer segment, which generally have better gear than Steve, and who presumably would also be far more likely to notice distortion in the audio, to take to errr.... notice it?
I wonder if these reviewers all use low end audio equipment like Steve's too?

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/TRON-Legacy-Blu-ray/18434/#Review
"Disney's flawless, top-tier DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 surround track"
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/310022/htf-blu-ray-review-tron-legacy-tron-2-movie-collection-3d-blu-ray-combo-pack
"The DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 sound mix is reference quality in every respect"
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/49023/tron-legacy-tron-the-original-classic/
"As you'd probably expect, the lossless, 24-bit, 7.1 audio on Tron: Legacy easily gets the nod as reference quality"
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/TRON-Legacy-Blu-ray/18434/#UserReviews
24 user reviews there, mostly applauding the audio quality. Not one complaint about distortion.

[ramicio]

Yes, make this about me supposedly not describing how this clipping sounds, in your terms. To me it sounds like clipping. I don't know how else to describe it. Of course people who review stuff are going to give something like Tron great reviews if their heads are up their asses about the geeky and artistic aspect of the movie. You could give LOTR a 240x100 resolution, 32 kbps sound, and play it back for a nerd, and they will still cream their pants when they watch it. Well I'm not a nerd. I never saw the original Tron, I've never watched any Star Wars movie, and I just generally don't get roped into fantasy magical crap. I didn't watch it to have some magic fantasy fetish fulfilled, I wanted to see it for its technical aspects, much like I like trippy movies and trippy-sounding music because I like drugs that induce trips.

[Stereodude]

It is audible on my system. Would I have noticed it on playback without seeing the graphs first, I think so. Is is so bad I would decode the audio track and look at the waveforms to check it, probably not.

[Stereodude]

I wonder if these reviewers all use low end audio equipment like Steve's too?Please... All you have to do to get those sorts of glowing comments is have an action movie with a loud soundtrack that has a lot of use of the surrounds and a lot of LFE.

[hello_hello]

Yes, make this about me supposedly not describing how this clipping sounds, in your terms. To me it sounds like clipping. I didn't watch it to have some magic fantasy fetish fulfilled, I wanted to see it for its technical aspects, much like I like trippy movies and trippy-sounding music because I like drugs that induce trips.

Well I must admit, I'm not really into trippy kinds of drugs, but I did wonder why you actually watched it. Aside from this thread resulting in me probably hiring it soon to listen to the audio for myself, I can't imagine I ever would have.

It is audible on my system. Would I have noticed it on playback without seeing the graphs first, I think so. Is is so bad I would decode the audio track and look at the waveforms to check it, probably not.

That's kind of my point. You "think" you would have heard it, but it wasn't so bad you would have decoded the audio track to look at it.
ramicio thought it sounded like "complete crap". Bad enough to decode it and look.
In this case as you're both members of the hearing elite, either you're hearing the same thing and ramicio has a much lower tolerance for it, or maybe you're not actually hearing the same level of distortion.

All I've been doing is wondering if the second option's a possibility.

[sneaker_ger]

@ramicio

Which software did you use to test? I wanted to see for myself, but I'm a total newbie to Audacity and didn't manage to produce a graph which clearly outlines the clipping.

[ramicio]

Goldwave.