Our moderator rules

[Doom9]

Rules, rules rules, right? Well, even though I prefer to handle things internally (I believe it's more professional.. you don't see bosses screaming at their employees in the hallways or even outside of the company grounds and that has a reason), there's a standard for moderators to adhere to as well.

Your main tasks are:

A) Help out the people in the forum(s) that have been assigned and keep the discussion going in a friendly and welcoming manner.

B) Uphold the forum rules: http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm.

C) Authorize attachments & unsuspend users: Visit the moderation panel every day you visit the board.

D) Maintain a FAQ in your respective forum: There should be a sticky Q&A thread in every forum where it makes sense to have one (probably excluding advanced users and bugreport / development forums) and it is the task of the assigned forum moderator(s) to maintain and update that Q&A on a regular basis. Basically if something is asked multiple times, put it in the FAQ, and if somebody has a really bright idea put it there as well.

E) Visit the mod chat every time you visit the board.

F) You must visit the board and take care of pending issues in your forum at least 3 times a week. You are strongly encouraged to do this on a daily basis. If for some reason you cannot be present for a period of 2 weeks or longer, you must inform the rest of the moderator team via a message in the mod chat giving a brief overview why you can't be here. If you don't want to share your reason you can send a PM to me but I need to have at least some idea of what is going on. The maximum "off time" allowed is 3 months, after that you'll either have to be back in full force or you'll be asked to step down.

G) Private forums are to be kept private. The issues being discussed in non public forums (mod chat, etc.) must never be revealed to people who are not moderators/admins on this board.

H) Moderate discussion on this board.

Below are some guidelines on various issues:

1) Looking after the forum is mainly the forum moderator's task. Only if he is not around for a while should other privileged users step in (Super Moderators).

Locking and Unlocking:

2) Forum Rule 3: If a thread is off topic but would fit into the focus of another forum the moderator should move it to the appropriate place. If a thread is off topic and doesn't fit into the forum then the appropriate forum moderator should write a short note stating that the post if off-topic, then close the thread. As by rule 1) locking and moving is mainly the task of the responsable forum moderator and no other person should lock threads in form where they haven't been specifically assigned as moderator unless rule 3 or 4 apply.

3) Unmoderated Forums: This is where Super Moderators take the moderator position.

4) If a thread is about to blow up in our faces (flame threads, etc) people with special privileges (Admins, Super Moderators) can take immediate actions (edit posts (see 6), and lock threads (locked threads must include one last post indicating why such action was taken))

5) Unlocking threads: If it's a sticky thread that you've created it's okay to unlock it if you want to make changes. If it isn't such a thread you must not unlock a previously locked thread.

Editing Threads

6) Any and all edits should be preceded by making a copy of the offending thread to the thread moderation forum. Whether you copy the entire thread or just a post is up to you, but it should always be able to reconstruct the discussion (so if copying single posts, make sure you indicate where they fit in the publicly visible thread).

6a) Any edit of any post that will be left standing should be marked as such (e.g. "removed link to illegal software", or "removed insults", etc.).

6b) If entire posts are being deleted, make sure you soft-delete them, so they can still be seen by members of the moderator team.

Deleting threads

7) If there's a case of cross-posting, try to answer the thread in the forum where it best fits in and move the rest of the threads to thread moderation. In most cases you will not be able to edit out all the cross-posts, in this case let an active forum moderator with the correct privileges, an active super moderator or active admin know. Also inform the offending user that cross-posting is in violation of the forum rules when you write your answer.

Conflict of interest

8) Moderators must not have a vested interest when using their moderator powers. When a mod's actions are called into question, the mod cannot use his moderator powers to resolve the situation - instead, the issue has to be handed off to another moderator or administrator. The same applies to controversy regarding any and all products a moderator has ties to.

Forum rule 1 violations:

9) Remind people that they signed the rule that they would read up first then ask questions. Also encourage them to use the search function in the forum and tell them that they may not expect an answer if they don't bother to read up first. Also remind people of the Q&As that we have (or will have).

10) Don't pick a "lesser" rule when a strike for rules 4 or 6 (those count as a double strike) is warranted.

11) On rule 6: Err on the side of caution before accusing somebody of warez. I've had cases where an obvious release group file name turned out to be a fluke (so googling the exact file name helps.. and if you find no precise match, assume that somebody adopted release group naming for their own purposes).

12) Interpretation of rule13: This is rule is meant to discourage conversations in languages other than English. With conversations I mean entire post exchanges. Sometime, you can hardly avoid writing a line in another language, and if somebody writes a considerable part of a post or an entire post in another language, you should warn him first before handing out any strikes.

13) As per the conflict of interest section, moderators may not strike for issues they have a vested interest in.

14) Only enforce rules 9 & 11 for repeat offenders. Politely encourage members that it is in their best interest to follow these rules instead often works better.

15) Keep in mind that with the team badge, you represent the forum, not your individual opinion. As such, you should set an example for our members to follow.


There's also a lengthy bit about how the strike system works that seems pretty irrelevant because only moderators will ever get to see the functionality. But here are some relevant bits

Note that if you're editing posts, deleting or moving posts, the link in the PM the user gets will go nowhere - so it is imperative that you use the message box field to inform the user why he/she was struck.

and
Rules 4 & 6 count as two strikes, violations of any other rules count as a single strike. Therefore, try warning people off first before handing out double strikes. Such a warning should serve as an encouragement for better behavior, not as a reprimand. I know it's much harder to ask somebody nicely to not do something again in the future than to slam him with the rulebook but the former has proven to be much more effective in the past. A strike for violation of rule 4 or 6 means the user in question is 2/3 suspended.. always keep that in mind. When in doubt.. rather ask another moderator or in this forum. The amount of suspensions should be very small at all times.. we don't have too many people really misbehaving badly.

Another thing.. before you strike take a minute to look at the user's profile and check previous strikes... if your strike would lead to a suspension it should be clear that the user generally deserves the suspension.. getting striked 3 times for not using an appropriate title for instance.. that shouldn't lead to a suspension but to a serious talk with a moderator telling him that his inconsiderate behavior might make it impossible for him to post in the feature and that a very small effort would help prevent that.

As you can see, the whole thing is written with super moderators in mind. Because we haven't had those for a long time an in order to handle attachments, moderator powers were extended to be available over all forums. That was never meant to be permanent.. hopefully, the right people will step up eventually.

Please note that those rules have been revised, extended and condensed (it was a lot less formal before, rules 9 and 13 were never written down explicitly but only mentioned casually in some rather old private discussions amongst team members). From this point on, you can expect moderators to adhere to those rules. If you feel somebody has not done so, please inform me immediately. Since I'm only human, do have a job and a personal life, I cannot guarantee a quick response, but I promise I will look into it. Because I do not believe getting into shouting matches, and since as with the forum rules, the final interpretation is up to me, I ask you to please remain civil even if you feel somebody has been wronged.
Also, I do not believe a good leader does his dirty laundry in public - you don't see public floggings in the workplace either. So don't expect a moderator hall of shame. Managers, to a certain extent, should have the spine to stand up for their people. Mistakes can happen - how you handle it when they're being pointed out to you is much more important in my book. I do not believe any forum can attract moderator volunteers if the admin stabs his own people in the back the first time they make a mistake.

[Guest]

Stickie?

[GodofaGap]

Also, I do not believe a good leader does his dirty laundry in public - you don't see public floggings in the workplace either.
When you call it like that no. When you call it "reminding a person of his responsibility" it happens pretty much all the time in the open. This is important so people don't get the idea that others get special treatment. I don't know in what kind of working environment you are active, though. I know moderators are volunteers, but this doesn't mean they don't bear any responsibility for their actions to the community.

If you want this transparency thing to have any meaning, and a larger group of people seem to have a problem with a moderator you will have to put out a public statement either in support or against the moderator. This doesn't mean you have to praise him into heaven or burn him down to the ground, it means you have to say the group of people is not justified in their feelings or acknowledge mistakes were made (and not in the sense of "everyone makes mistakes").

I'm afraid that with reiteration of the forum rules and opening up the moderator rules the mentioned group of people will not feel recognized in their grievance here, and it will not resolve the existing situation.

[Doom9]

When you call it "reminding a person of his responsibility" it happens pretty much all the time in the open.Does it really? Other than in "The Apprentice"? I'm familiar with the "get into my office".. which is a pretty clear indication someone has screwed up.. but I have yet to see for instance an unfriendly sales person or service person being told to adjust their attitude in front of me. I believe that should happen during the next break (or if it gets really bad you swap the person at the register immediately.. but you tell the replacement to replace the other). Sometimes customers might pick up on those reminders, but I doubt it is the idea that they do.

but this doesn't mean they don't bear any responsibility for their actions to the community.Who says they don't? They are held accountable - but they can't really account to you.. you don't have the power to demand that they change. I, however, do.

[Sharktooth]

that was exactly what i meant on my reply on doom10. that is an admin issue. doom9 owns this forum and he decides how things are going to be... not users.

[Hagbard23]

that was exactly what i meant on my reply on doom10. that is an admin issue. doom9 owns this forum and he decides how things are going to be... not users.

That is surely wrong Sharktooth.

The Admin owns something, which is built by the Community - so there is no Decision which affects community, and which has to be done by the Admin alone.

What is wrong with you all? We live in a Democracy, people fought years and years for the rights we have in the real world. Why are you going back to dictatorship? In nearly every democratic system, the people who are part of it are allowed to discuss and mention problems as they want to - as long as they don't stand in conflict with the general laws.

It is a central right, we are discussing here, and i do not believe, that keeping problems secret will do anything to them.

Why should i report problems to the Administrative, when i have a problem with this certain administrative??? That is not logical. Why should the Administrative be the only adress for problems? I do not understand your way of thinking? What is your fear? If the subject of criticism has done nothing wrong, he has no cause of keeping things secret, or am i wrong? And IF the criticism is on the right lane, we all should know about this - because not all users have problems with a certain person at the same time, and it would be interesting to those users, what's the matter with -for example- Neuron2.

I don't get it - am i stupid or what? What exactly is your problem?

[Guest]

@Hagabard23

I think you may have misunderstood Sharktooth. I think he's just saying that the Doom9 forum belongs to Doom9 and Doom9 has the right to decide and implement his personnel policies as he sees fit. That's how all businesses work.

[Hagbard23]

But we aren't a business here, right? We are a community. I know, that you like business, but that does not make the Forum into one. A Forum is a free place, where people come together to discuss several things, right? It is no business as Neutron2.Net, it is -first of all- Free.

Maybe you are right, that Doom9 has the right to choose wether a person would be a good moderator, or not. But as every Human Being he can do mistakes - just as your person does.

And in a free forum, just as explained, those mistakes (if they affect community based problems) SHOULD be discussed with the members of this Forum and NOT with the -self called- owners of this community.

[tremens]

At a minimum, i think some PTO is in order. ;)

[GodofaGap]

Does it really? Other than in "The Apprentice"? I'm familiar with the "get into my office".. which is a pretty clear indication someone has screwed up.. but I have yet to see for instance an unfriendly sales person or service person being told to adjust their attitude in front of me.
I've seen unfriendly service personnel be corrected right in front of me behind the counter when I asked for their boss. Perhaps this is a cultural difference, but this really does happen and it definitely gives a feeling you are taken seriously as a customer.

Who says they don't? They are held accountable - but they can't really account to you.. you don't have the power to demand that they change.
You misunderstood me, I'm not asking that moderators account to me. I'm saying that a part of the community finds that a moderator has screwed up, and they don't think it is enough anymore to handle this behind closed doors. You can think what you like about this, but if you don't come with an open statement this whole transparency exercise will be in vain.

that was exactly what i meant on my reply on doom10. that is an admin issue. doom9 owns this forum and he decides how things are going to be... not users.
Sure he can do what he wants, but that is so besides the point I don't even know why you bring it up. If this is the premise for discussion then lets just lock all these threads right away. I thought they were created to have an open discussion with the community about them. If not, I'm sorry I wasted my time.

[stax76]

but if you don't come with an open statement this whole transparency exercise will be in vain

Post #1 is the open statement, one with that IMO everybody can be satisfied with.

[GodofaGap]

Then close the topic.

[Sharktooth]

@Hagabard23

I think you may have misunderstood Sharktooth. I think he's just saying that the Doom9 forum belongs to Doom9 and Doom9 has the right to decide and implement his personnel policies as he sees fit. That's how all businesses work.
yep, i was in a hurry and couldnt elaborate more.

[Ghitulescu]

But we aren't a business here, right? We are a community. I know, that you like business, but that does not make the Forum into one. A Forum is a free place, where people come together to discuss several things, right? It is no business as Neutron2.Net, it is -first of all- Free.

No, doom9's forum is not a community, it's a forum that belongs to doom9. He pays for the hosting and for the traffic and some other issues you have probably no idea, thus it's free for you. Should everyone take part to these issues (member fee ;) - I wonder how much would shrink this community should a member fee be instituted;)) well that's a community. So far I understood this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=52597), we are only guests here. We may discuss the rules (before Rule 17 ;)) but not impose them.

[Hagbard23]

Okay, then it is not a forum, by old definition, but only a website in which others can interact. Some kind of Social Network ;)...
Nevertheless: Of course you are right with your thoughts.

But Anyway i hold it - with or without these thoughts -, i don't think it is a good idea to go this way -

i will go with it, but i'm not gonna like it.

[Guest]

It is no business as Neutron2.Net, it is -first of all- Free. If you actually go to neuron2.net and look around you will see that 95% of my stuff is open sourced, and that I offer free hosting to other open source developers, as well as free mirroring for significant websites experiencing hosting difficulties. Go search for the original Avisynth website (BenRG's); you will find the mirror I have provided to you free ever since BenRG moved on.

Regarding my licensed tools, a single donation gets all of them. So since there are currently three significant ones, you pay $5 per significant tool. I am not the only prominent developer that makes non-free tools. You may consider jdobbs and mpucoder for example. We have hosting and other expenses. These small donations provide spending money for that. I can assure you, I am nowhere near getting rich from my tools.

Furthermore, even for my tool DGDecNV, I have published my entire development dialog with Nvidia, as well as sample applications (source code) that show how to use the GPU for decoding.

Finally, I'm sure that you have noticed that some other developers, that ironically claim lilly-white status, are quite happy to state that their commercial activities take priority. See here for an example ("All contracts buy you priority access to me over email, IRC, and instant messenger."):

http://mirror05.x264.nl/Dark/consulting.html

I include it below in case it should suddenly disappear:

As a developer of x264 and ffmpeg, I take consulting and coding contracts. They generally fall under the following categories:

General x264/ffmpeg consulting: You pay me to answer questions and provide detailed information and support on x264 and ffmpeg. This is the simplest, cheapest type of contract and gets you priority access to me. This can also serve as a support contract of sorts.

Project-based x264/ffmpeg consulting: Perhaps you need an encoding chain built for some specific purpose--a Flash video site or encoding for mobile devices. I have a great deal of experience in this category, having helped set up encoding chains for Facebook, Criterion Collection, and others. Other types of projects can also be considered. Do note that I generally do not do coding in such cases; while I am not ignorant in the ways of bash scripting, it is generally a much more efficient use of my time and your time to have me provide you the information you need to write your own back-end scripts. Furthermore, I will never write PHP for any purpose.

Coding: Do you need a feature added to x264 or a bug fixed? Then this is the type of contract you're looking for. Previous clients in this category include Avail Media and Vudu. Note that I of course reserve the right to reject any contract proposal that I believe does not make sense or which I do not have time to implement (especially true of features which would be incredibly complicated to implement, such as SVC). I also will generally only work on features that I believe are worthwhile enough to actually commit to x264; custom features that are not intended to be committed will be considered on a case-by-case basis. Also note that I require--at a minimum--co-ownership of all changes that I commit to x264; I will not accept any contract that does not grant me that minimum amount of ownership of my own code.

Coding on things not x264: Do you have a video compression-related program, especially H.264-related, that you want me to improve? I can do this as well; previous clients in this category include CoreCodec. Note that specific restrictions apply here: your NDA cannot in any way affect any of my other work including that on x264. Additionally, I reserve the right to refuse to directly port algorithms or code from x264 if applicable. Finally, I will not promise to complete any task until I have acquired enough information to judge feasibility and work involved. Obviously, if I decide something is not feasible after seeing the existing codebase, you will not be billed.

My rates are $100/hr for consulting and $125/hr for coding contracts. Per-project rates are negotiable. For large payments (> $1000), check is preferred; Paypal works for smaller payments. All contracts buy you priority access to me over email, IRC, and instant messenger. Phone is also available if necessary.

Contact darkshikari [at] gmail [dot] com if you are interested in a contract. If you need more information, a simple CV can be found here.

I hope it will not be considered spam. :)

[Sharktooth]

Okay, then it is not a forum, by old definition, but only a website in which others can interact. Some kind of Social Network ;)...
Nevertheless: Of course you are right with your thoughts.

But Anyway i hold it - with or without these thoughts -, i don't think it is a good idea to go this way -

i will go with it, but i'm not gonna like it.
it has been always like that. what makes you think it could change?
it always was a forum and there were certain rules which you abide to agree during you registration. it's not so difficult to understand.
it's a private place made available to the public to discuss certain things.

[tremens]

If you actually go to neuron2.net and look around you will see that 95% of my stuff is open sourced, and that I offer free hosting to other open source developers, as well as free mirroring for significant websites experiencing hosting difficulties. Go search for the original Avisynth website (BenRG's); you will find the mirror I have provided to you free ever since BenRG moved on.

Regarding my licensed tools, a single donation gets all of them. So since there are currently three significant ones, you pay $5 per significant tool. I am not the only prominent developer that makes non-free tools. You may consider jdobbs and mpucoder for example. We have hosting and other expenses. These small donations provide spending money for that. I can assure you, I am nowhere near getting rich from my tools.

Furthermore, even for my tool DGDecNV, I have published my entire development dialog with Nvidia, as well as sample applications (source code) that show how to use the GPU for decoding.

Finally, I'm sure that you have noticed that some other developers, that ironically claim lilly-white status, are quite happy to state that their commercial activities take priority. See here for an example ("All contracts buy you priority access to me over email, IRC, and instant messenger."):

http://mirror05.x264.nl/Dark/consulting.html

I include it below in case it should suddenly disappear:



I hope it will not be considered spam. :)

just further proof that the concept of free software is beyond your comprehension

[stax76]

@neuron2

I was hoping you and DS are willing to leave this argument behind, going separate ways is all what's needed and I don't mean separate boards but rather separate threads.

[Doom9]

I'm saying that a part of the community finds that a moderator has screwed up, and they don't think it is enough anymore to handle this behind closed doors. Why is it not enough? I hate peer pressure and screaming matches. If you have a reasonable gripe, as I've said before, I will listen. And, now that you know the standard moderators are held to, you can basically report a moderator rule violation. If the report turns out to be correct, something will be done about it. For instance, if a strike was given, that strike will be rescinded and the moderator will be given instructed how to handle similar situations better in the future.
For the most egregious offenses, or serial offenders, the result will be that they will lose their moderator status.

But we're not going to have a vote on who will be hired and who will be fired. That part, just as on the tube, is up to the boss.

just further proof that the concept of free software is beyond your comprehension please elaborate

[GodofaGap]

Why is it not enough?
Because it doesn't bring transparency, which is needed for interpretation of rules and better expectation of future moderation.

Again, you can choose to ignore this but then all of this pointless.

[Guest]

I was hoping you and DS are willing to leave this argument behind I've been willing to for some time, but vile attacks are still being made on me at Doom10 (controlled by DS), so I will defend myself as long as it continues.

going separate ways is all what's needed and I don't mean separate boards but rather separate threads. I don't follow your point. I will continue defending myself in this thread until the attacks on me cease.

[Doom9]

Because it doesn't bring transparency, which is needed for interpretation of rules and better expectation of future moderation.And what moderator or administrative experience lead you to that conclusion? It's easy to say you can do better.. but you should be provided to back that up with actual experience. Just because you think something should be done differently doesn't necessarily mean it a) work out at all, and b) end up being an improvement.

[tremens]

my interpretation of his post was a failure to recognize the idea of “'free' as in 'free speech', not as in 'free beer'". there's nothing wrong with making money from gpl or lgpl software. look at google. :) correct me if i'm wrong.

btw, can you give me your interpretation of rule 8? like an example of how it could be broken?

[GodofaGap]

And what moderator or administrative experience lead you to that conclusion?
I've been moderator on two different forums, and if you really need to ask why it could be better if members of this forum get a better understanding of how the rules work through transparency around decision making that results from these rules, this conversation just hit a dead end.

[Doom9]

btw, can you give me your interpretation of rule 8? like an example of how it could be broken? I assume you mean moderator rule 8. Suppose I were a mod and still active in megui development. Somebody comes along and calls megui a crappy software written by braindead idiots. So, now both myself and my work is under attack. Now, I'm still permitted to ask why it's crappy... but if feel the normal "I need to defend my honor" feeling most human beings get when confrontent with the braindead idiots statement, then that's the point where I need to let cooler heads prevail.

I've been moderator on two different forumsAnd those forums would be and did you have the same username on those?

[tremens]

ok, what about this:

lets change the roles a little.

imagine stax was a mod/dev and you were just a dev. stax says within his own thread that megui is crappy software written by braindead idiots and when you go defend yourself, he immediately deletes your posts.

it's really only slightly different.

[Guest]

imagine stax was a mod/dev and you were just a dev. stax says within his own thread that megui is crappy software written by braindead idiots and when you go defend yourself, he immediately deletes your posts.

it's really only slightly different. No, it is very different. I instructed him in my capacity as a moderator to put his post in a new thread. He refused and repeatedly posted in my support thread, even after being warned in a PM.

[tremens]

i'm talking about a hypothetical situation here. stax didn't really say that about megui. :)

[Guest]

Yes, and I didn't really delete anybody's posts to shut them up.

[Bi11]

Doom9, I am trying to understand the workplace analogy you keep iterating, despite giving no justification for its relevancy.
What makes you think business policy is appropriate for a community-driven forum?

Using your workplace analogy, the Administrator is the boss, moderators are employees, and forum users are clients.
If a client is unsatisfied with the way they were treated by an employee then they can discuss the matter with the boss. There are 2 possible outcomes from the client’s perspective: satisfied, unsatisfied.

If the client is satisfied (or eventually satisfied) with the measures taken then there isn’t much else to discuss, so that’s the end of the “satisfaction procedure” with the halting state being ‘satisfied’.

However, how exactly does the “satisfaction procedure” eventually halt in a state of ‘unsatisfied’, or has the halting problem been realized?

As a thought experiment (note I am not proposing this as true), in the case of grievances between a user and a moderator, I can think of a simplified court system analogy, say ‘State vs user’.

The judge presiding over the matter is a human being and has a life that also exists outside the court system. As such, the judge (who is fair most of the time) has certain predispositions about certain matters that appear before him. The judge does of course not acknowledge these predispositions.

The user is aware of the judge’s predisposition and knows it will affect the final outcome of the case. The user can draw on past cases where the judge was biased; though such bias was never acknowledged by the courts, (presumably because the judge is very valuable and taking action against the judge would have some negative impacts on the courts not worth risking).

The outcome of the case is as expected. The user goes against the odds and calls the judge’s fairness into question by opening a case against the judge. So now, it’s ‘user vs judge’.

The head judge (Chief Justice, Court of Appeal, Administrator, whatever, you get the idea) presides over the case. Despite the biased judge and the head judge being more than good friends (the head judge relies heavily on the biased judge’s dedication to the courts), the user continues with the case.

However, some of the rules governing the powers of a judge are intentionally overly general in order to allow for flexibility of powers in good faith (e.g. moderator rule 4 – “blow up in our faces”, moderator rule 11 – “side of caution” which contradicts taking proactive measures to "fish-out" downloaders of pirated content (which imo seems futile since the uploaders are the real 'criminals'). This means the head judge necessarily interprets those rules on a case-by-case basis, because they are too vague to be interpreted objectively.

Thus, the head judge is free to bend or even break those rules for a judge without the user having any recourse but to accept the ruling and associated consequences.

Notice I have simply presented a problematic scenario without suggesting how you should run your forum.
You speak about being civil as if this forum is a civilized society. If so, then the courts analogy may be more appropriate than the workplace analogy.

IMHO, there is a fundamental difference between the workplace analogy and the courts analogy. Business clients are considered independent entities with no knowledge of each other. A court system serves justice to users of a community; those users necessarily interact with each other as part of being members of the community.

Community members look out for each other, clients do not! Your workplace analogy completely ignores the organic nature and dynamic relationships that unfold as the community evolves.

P.S. I am not trying to take sides; I am simply questioning your application of workplace policies to a community-driven forum.

[HJRodrigo]

Interesting set of rules. Were the rules formally written before or only now due to the mess that that occurred?

To be clear the mess that I am referring to seems to be that DS reported N2 for some violation of license with his software. N2 feels betrayed that DS didn't tell him first. N2 takes out his frustration in the forum at other software. N2 bans DS from the forums for chastising him publicly about spreading false information. DS is now mad that N2 has banned him without good reason. You did not state whether N2's actions were appropriate or not and now DS is mad at you for poor managerial skills.

The business model that you alluded to earlier was not used in this situation, as most people that studied business can tell you. Keeping the customer happy is paramount. If an employee offends a customer due to inappropriate behavior, the boss should reinforce that to the costumer that the employee’s actions were inappropriate and assure them that they will take appropriate actions to ensure it will not happen again. The specifics of the actions can remain hidden between the boss and employee, but the customer should feel their complaint was validated and not ignored. I take it DS just wanted confirmation from you that N2’s actions were not appropriate in this scenario and should not happen again. You are correct that a boss should not yell at his employee in front of the customer or even enact disciplinary measures in front of the customer. It is disrespectful to the employee and can backfire by making the customer feel awkward or responsible and quite simply it is just plain unprofessional. The boss’ role in the end is not to protect the employee, but the business. Keeping the customer feeling safe about doing more business with them in the future is his true goal.

In some sense it is unfair to the employee as the customer can be somewhat uncivil and the employee just has to suck it up. That is why most businesses try to hire employees not easily offended if their job involves regular contact with customers. It seems N2 was a little too reactionary/thin skinned in this situation and caused a mountain out of a molehill.

N2 has good work ethic and seems to be very reliable, but he needs to work on his thin skin. DS is a customer and not much can be done to change them. If you do plan to get more moderators in the future, try following the business model of picking people based on personality with costumers.

[Guest]

@HJRodrigo

Your account is a total misrepresentation of the facts and you do nobody any good by posting it and thereby creating new controversies that don't exist.

[PhrostByte]

I don't think it fits to treat this community as a business. Moderators should be volunteering for the community that they are part of, and be respected and held accountable by that community. Businesses cover up wrongdoing by employees because, for better or worse, they don't want clients/shareholders to perceive them as having problems. There should be no need for cover ups here.

I wonder if Doom9 could make a couple of the more active people into moderators. If there are more moderators, it would be easier to avoid conflicts of interest, and hopefully allow the moderators to talk frankly among themselves to keep each-other in line.

[Hagbard23]

Your account is a total misrepresetation of the facts and you do nobody any good by posting it and thereby creating new controversies that don't exist.
Says who?

That exactly is the point:
You misuse your mod status to make your ->opinion<- a objective truth, which is not always right. And that leads to a habit which is causing problems.

That's what i meant with: "Arrogance" - i bet you have read only a few words of the whole post of HJRodrigo.

I Totally agree with B11,tremens and godofagap.

BTW: The Business of Dark Shikari is a lot more friendly to the scene, than your way - at least this is my opinion.I can find nothing offending in his offer. Burn me for that.

Anyway, before i got deleted i shut up - nothing to win here for democratic senses.

[Doom9]

imagine stax was a mod/dev and you were just a dev. stax says within his own thread that megui is crappy software written by braindead idiots and when you go defend yourself, he immediately deletes your posts. Well, assuming that we still operate under the same set of rules as in my example, I do have two options
1) I ask stax why he's calling me a braindead idiot because I feel that that is in violation of the forum rules. I also ask why my response was deleted. If I'm not happy with the response, or god firbid if I should get a strike for me asking, then
2) I would contact the administrator and ask the same questions (plus if I got a strike ask if it was appropriate).

If the outcome of the above was not satisfactory, then it depends. If other than that one statement I never had any issues, I'd probably let it go because the forum is still important for what I do and pretty much all my users are here. If I were being constantly harassed, then I'd have think hard whether it is worth the hassle. But, even if I dediced it wasn't and I had the power to take megui someplace else and the users would come with me, I would state my reasons for leaving politely, and then leave it at that. A couple of years ago, I would not have taken it so well but I believe that it's just not worth the effort to hold a grudge. Also, (now we're going hypothetical..) if my professional work would involve coding and I was using megui as part of my resume, I would be concerned that my online conduct with regards to megui would be considered by prospective clients and / or employees - so, retaliating in kind would probably not be in my best interest.

I wonder if Doom9 could make a couple of the more active people into moderators.Oh absolutely.. if their previous conduct on these board shows that they are up to the task. I already have two names under consideration.

I'm afraid that's all I can respond to for today.. it's way past my bedtime again.

[Nic]

Hmmm, I think back and forth bickering and "what if" questions between mods and users (especially those with post counts lower than 100) is probably going to be pretty unproductive.

Not that a low post count means an opinion is worthless, but just that it's probably hard for such a user to understand how these rules have evolved and the issues we have had in the past when they are not strictly enforced.

I think Doom9 has been more than clear and, afterall, it is his forum, not ours. Can we not draw a line under this now? Close this thread and move on?

I would suggest to those that really do disagree with the approach and rules as outlined here by Doom9 to either try and get along with them as best as they can, or perhaps even, sadly, move on. As, I'm sure this is getting tiresome for all involved.

-Nic

[Bi11]

If other than that one statement I never had any issues, I'd probably let it go because the forum is still important for what I do and pretty much all my users are here.
So you make a decision based only on your own needs; you think only about yourself. What if a megui user/evangelist defends megui in stax's thread and got banned, would you turn a blind eye?

IMHO, there is a fundamental difference between the workplace analogy and the courts analogy. Business clients are considered independent entities with no knowledge of each other. A court system serves justice to users of a community; those users necessarily interact with each other as part of being members of the community.

Community members look out for each other, clients do not! Your workplace analogy completely ignores the organic nature and dynamic relationships that unfold as the community evolves.
Corollary: Employees are the driving force of a business; they do all the productive work. Community members, not moderators, are the driving force of a community-driven forum; they do all the productive work.

[Sharktooth]

you forget one thing. doom9 forums are not a community. the forum has an owner (doom9), the webspace has an owner as well.
doom9 forums are a private space made available for the public. that means you can browse the forums and learn from ppl.
on the other hand if you want to post something you have to abide the rules of this forum.
there is no democracy here since this is NOT a community. obviously everyone has the right to choose if they can accept the rules of this forum or not as well as everyone has the right to leave or stay.
keep in mind this is a private place where you have no rights to make the rules. the rules are made by the admin.
that said, the admin has the "power" of deciding on every user on this forum (i mean warn, suspend, ban, etc.), moderators included. if, for example, he wants to shut it down you can do nothing about that... coz it's HIS forum.
so, all this mumbo jumbo is pointless. the reality is this forum exists and has rules, if you can accept them then you're welcome, if you cant, there are plenty of other spaces with different rules, doom10 in first place.

[SallyDog]

Jeez, how has this thread evolved into the animal that it's become. Just close the beast. Doom9 is Doom9's to do with as he pleases, and I for one think he's doing (and done) a pretty damn fine job.

[Bi11]

doom9 forums are not a community.
http://forum.doom9.org/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_waitingperiod
I don't have anything against you Sharktooth, but please let Doom9 speak for himself.

[Sharktooth]

well, doom9 also said that: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=52597
the "community" term is not appropriately used in the text of that FAQ.
or better, the doom9 forums HOSTS a community of ppl but it's not community driven.
btw, im not against anyone im just trying to explain why ppl has no right to make decisions (forum related decisions) here.

[Bi11]

Your're not making much sense. The thread you linked to says the opposite of what you're saying. "Community" is used there to mean "community-driven", i.e. it's mostly community members who contribute to the body of knowledge on this forum.

[Sharktooth]

yes that's true, maybe i did not explain myself enough. what im trying to say is this forum is not owned by the community so the community can not make the rules and can not make decisions.
at best the community can make suggestions.

[PhrostByte]

@Sharktooth doom9.org it is not owned by the community, but that does not make it wrong to question and discuss its owner's rules and the people who enforce in his name. Being given something for free is not a reason to hold your tongue.

[Sharktooth]

i didnt say that. i just said we cant make the rules. we can discuss about them with the admin but we cant expect doom9 to accept all our (read: users) requests. afterall this site (forum, web, etc) is his site...

[HJRodrigo]

@HJRodrigo
Your account is a total misrepresentation of the facts and you do nobody any good by posting it and thereby creating new controversies that don't exist.

Please elaborate. None of the info I have provided is new, hence how can there be new controversies? I just read what everyone was writing and tried to put it in chronological order. The problem is you have deleted so much it is hard to put things back together to get a clear picture, all we can see are bits and peices. According to the IRC logs, PMs, and archived comments I have read, I have the progression of events correct. I will agree that my interpretation maybe wrong, since I am just saying what I was told afterall.

If I am wrong or inaccurate anywhere please tell me how so, rather than just flat out saying my account is a "total misrepresentation". I like knowing the truth and being accurate.

First I was curious as to the origins of your issues with ffmpeg and DS and I was pointed to this link (https://roundup.ffmpeg.org/issue1451) and was told you were uspset with FFMPEG and DS because of this and was told it was due to this you incorrectly made claims about FFMPEG violating MPEGLA licensing without checking your facts first.
Dark_Shikari found a possible license violation by DGAVCDec (http://neuron2.net/dgavcdec/dgavcdec.html).

And the following excerpts directly from several of your posts seem to clearly demonstrate you are upset, so I believed what people are saying as they have supporting posts to point me to.
...nobody bothered to email me about it before putting me in a Hall of Shame? This has caused me distress as I have always been a champion of OSS... I just want this entry removed as it is affecting my reputation as an OSS developer... In the meantime, do I have to continue to be help up to shame and ridicule? This is ridiculous... Why can't this whole silly busy go away. I did nothing wrong and you are runing my reputation... I don't need to do it. I do the work for free and offer it to the community. I have tried to adhere to the licensing and a misunderstanding occurred due to a mistake in another software distribution. Now you're going to punish everyone because you don't like me?!... I'm not selling this thing. From day one, I offered the source code, credited Michael, and tried to do the right thing. And now I find myself in a nightmare situation because someone wouldn't extend me the courtesy of emailing or PMing me to alert me that ffdshow had compiled for GPL but not changed the license file... I don't deserve all this and I have to wonder whether someone has an agenda.

I have no idea if you fairly banned DS or not, as all related posts that you could have pointed to have been deleted by you. But your actions seem highly suspect, as DS was the person who originally pointed out the issue with your software. I always thought that you were a good guy and I STILL do. So If my understanding is wrong, simply explain your side in an informative/detailed way and I will correct my understanding of the situation.

[Guest]

I have no idea... Exactly my point.

[HJRodrigo]

Exactly my point.

I agree, I really don't have any idea ;)

[lych_necross]

Jeez, how has this thread evolved into the animal that it's become. Just close the beast. Doom9 is Doom9's to do with as he pleases, and I for one think he's doing (and done) a pretty damn fine job.
Seconded!! Until the users start paying for the privilege of accessing this forum, Doom9 runs the show. End of discussion. Quit arguing over semantics. Jesus, tHe WoRd CoMmUnItY iS uSeD iNcOrReCtLy!?! LET IT GO!!!!