Cinavia DRM protection

[JJB]

Just for information about a new encryption method that was found/reported at http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41581

[setarip_old]

"Old" unsubstantiated news.

Click on the following Doom9 link and read the posts dated July 03 through July 07...

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1414174#post1414174

[kieranrk]

"Old" unsubstantiated news.


Clearly it isn't: http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41581&page=5

[setarip_old]

@kierank

Read carefully regarding the nature of the videos referred to in both your link and the one provided by "JJB".

As I mentioned in "the other thread", we'll know soon enough, when the legitimate version of "The Losers" BluRay is released next week...

[kieranrk]

As I mentioned in "the other thread", we'll know soon enough, when the legitimate version of "The Losers" BluRay is released next week...

There's no reason to believe that the disc is is illegitimate. Some retailers choose to sell before the official release date.

[laserfan]

Somehow I sense that if "The Losers" becomes the first official Cinavia release, that title will carry with it some not-insignificant irony one way (studios) or the other (end-users). ;)

[b66pak]

this is may be the end of BD(DVD) rebuilding for BD players!
_

[jdobbs]

this is may be the end of BD(DVD) rebuilding for BD players!
_????? Why? This is so easy to circumvent that it's almost laughable.

[b66pak]

how? butchering an already butchered (watermarked) audio? firmware mods for BD players?
_

N.B. my assumption is for BD players ONLY! (no PCs, MACs and especially NMTs)
_

[jdobbs]

how? butchering an already butchered (watermarked) audio? firmware mods for BD players?
_

N.B. my assumption is for BD players ONLY! (no PCs, MACs and especially NMTs)
_ You demux, fix the audio, and remux.

[b66pak]

This is so easy to circumvent that it's almost laughable. You demux, fix the audio, and remux.

sorry but this is a very funny (and vague!) statement!
_

[jdobbs]

Apparently you're new to this. I'm not. All DRM is laughable. AnyDVD HD kinda' proves that, doesn't it? Remember how BD+ was uncrackable and would take "hundreds of years" to break? Gee. It took a couple of months.

So what's your vested interest in this? You sure seem to be beating this dead horse. You sound almost as if you wrote it and want to make is sound better than it is.

[Sharktooth]

you wont loose anything from removing a watermark... protections are so useless...

[laserfan]

You demux, fix the audio, and remux.There's just gotta be more to it than that, or they wouldn't bother doing it, would they?

It seemed to me something akin to "no set-top player will be allowed to play BD-R or RE or DVD-5 or DVD-9" which would have hosed us all-up if all the mfrs had done this. So I thought the new discs required new firmware which said "no Cinavia on the disc, no worky at all".

Not that we're interested in discussing this at all of course! :eek:

[jdobbs]

There's just gotta be more to it than that, or they wouldn't bother doing it, would they?

It seemed to me something akin to "no set-top player will be allowed to play BD-R or RE or DVD-5 or DVD-9" which would have hosed us all-up if all the mfrs had done this. So I thought the new discs required new firmware which said "no Cinavia on the disc, no worky at all".

Not that we're interested in discussing this at all of course! :eek: Why would a MFR do something like that? He's trying to sell players.

Anyway... as you said, this really isn't that interesting.

[deank]

My 2 cents... Few months ago I got a 10min sample shoot with a camcoder in a movie theater - you can imagine the video and audio quality. So I tried the file in my Playstation3 and at one point PS3 ERRORS out with a "Cinavia protection error".

Just a thought.

Dean

[setarip_old]

@deank

Yes, from what I've read so far, it appears that this may be a protection scheme that can be added to the theater-presented movies as a deterrent for "cams" only, of which I previously said: only "peer-to-peer that contain Cinavia DRM: TS/CAM versions of The Wolfman and Shutter Island". (Pirated stuff to which I personally say good riddance)

And for all of those who offer speculation as fact, I'd once again remind you that we're just a few days away from the actual official release of "The Losers". Patience is a virtue ;>}

Also, I'd suggest that it would not be difficult to add a FAKE (meaning NO actual watermarking) "Cinavia protection error" notification to a disc via BD+, for example - meaning that SOME type of protection would be added (think of the multiple protections on "Avatar") but not watermarking...

[drmih]

I seem to think that dvd-audio was protected by something very similar to this and I don't think that was ever broken. Having a quick look at the technical information this could be much harder to circumvent than bd+. It appears that if the audio has the buried protection, then you would also need to have valid aacs encryption present as well. Going by the fact that this can be picked up by a CAM in a theatre (this seems to have been corroborated by more than just one person), it's very insensitive to quality, so tremendously difficult to filter out without seriously corrupting the actual audio. The agreement for this implementation has it incorporated in future standalone players, and I assume mainstream players like powerdvd and tmt. Obviously old players or ones without the latest firmware will play discs, but future discs will have keys which will require new firmware. One solution would be to modify the player firmware to turn this off, but it will be very difficult (how many firmwares are there which have been modified to merely switch off the region checking?) and need doing across a range of machines. The other options would be to be able to filter the signal out (I think that this will be the most difficult as it's the key to the system and defeating proprietary systems tends not to be easiest by tackling them head on), or reproducing encryption for copied discs.

[kieranrk]

Why would a MFR do something like that? He's trying to sell players.

It is a mandatory part of the new AACS.

[setarip_old]

@drmih

Hi! I seem to think that dvd-audio was protected by something very similar to this and I don't think that was ever broken.

The following appears to indicate that Foobar/Foobar2000 has the capability of identifying and eliminating audio watermarking (Post #3):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1302992#post1302992

[setarip_old]

It may not mean anything but - The website for "Verance" (the old name for Cinavia) that was available right through a week ago, linked to in a July 2007 thread started by "Ron Spencer", is now gone. I mention this because (not verbatim) even three years ago, the same folks were touting the imminent use of the same general concept 3 years ago, "pending approval by AACS LA":

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1021206#post1021206

[jdobbs]

It is a mandatory part of the new AACS.That sucks. Oh well...

[drmih]

@drmih

Hi!

The following appears to indicate that Foobar/Foobar2000 has the capability of identifying and eliminating audio watermarking (Post #3):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1302992#post1302992



Thanks for that. I am still not sure if it is possible to decrypt the discs to make new ones to play in standalone players. This seems to be a pc based solution but I will try it out.

[deank]

It may not mean anything but - The website for "Verance" (the old name for Cinavia) that was available right through a week ago, linked to in a July 2007 thread started by "Ron Spencer", is now gone. I mention this because (not verbatim) even three years ago, the same folks were touting the imminent use of the same general concept 3 years ago, "pending approval by AACS LA":

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1021206#post1021206

You can find the page here:

http://www.verance.com/AdminSavR/news/news_item.php?news_id=1&arch_yr=1

They just changed the archive section (http://www.verance.com/AdminSavR/news/archive.php).

[deank]

Again about Cinavia and PS3:

http://www.myce.com/news/sony-pushes-out-ps3-drm-to-halt-illegal-movie-playback-32640/

http://static.myce.com/images_posts/2010/08/Cinavia-PS3.jpg

[Ghitulescu]

The automatic FW update procedure always worries me, since the good ole times of the CD. The same is true for FW updates that won't allow you to downgrade.

[Wolfe999]

I seem to think that dvd-audio was protected by something very similar to this and I don't think that was ever broken.

Don't know if it's of any relevance here, but the Oppo (don't remember the model's number) wasn't affected by this watermark.

I just bought from Amazon the Pioneer DV-610AV, having read that it was a clone of the Oppo (besides being multiregion and multivoltage... do you say it like this? :) and capable of reading DVD-A, SACD & -I think- HDCD), and where my Panasonic DVD capable of readind DVD-A got stuck in the fatidic 15/30" of the watermark, the Pioneer sails on triumphantly.

[deank]

On the bright side, those of you who have Panasonic Viera TVs with AVCHD support can play protected content, authored with multiAVCHD. The same structure causes my PS3 to mute the audio with 'cinavia' error, but the Panasonic plays it just fine :) That's in case you don't need subtitles and HD/DTS audio (chapters and AC3 audio only)... I'm using optical connection from the TV to the AV receiver so 640kbps 5.1 AC3 + 1920x1080 AVC/H.264 works just fine for me. :) No need to burn discs, too, because all is available via USB HDD.

Dean

[happycase]

Are old movie backups affected by this or only new release movie backups?

[setarip_old]

@happycase

Hi!

Thusfar, the ONLY commercial BluRay release proven to contain "Cinavia" protection is "The Losers". It was released a few weeks ago. No earlier BluRay releases are/can be affected. No subsequent releases have thusfar been proven to contain "Cinavia" protection (No way of knowing if specific recent releases may still be in production)...

[happycase]

@happycase

Hi!

Thusfar, the ONLY commercial BluRay release proven to contain "Cinavia" protection is "The Losers". It was released a few weeks ago. No earlier BluRay releases are/can be affected. No subsequent releases have thusfar been proven to contain "Cinavia" protection (No way of knowing if specific recent releases may still be in production)...

Is it only BD 5/9 that are affected because they are read as AVCHD or are BD-R 25/50/RE affected as well?

[deank]

For Playstation 3 it affects all types of discs (Blu-ray, AVCHD) be it BD5, BD9, BD25, BD50, USB-HDD playback and simple file playback of MP4, M2TS or other supported files/formats which use audio tracks protected by Cinavia. For other players (updated to suport Cinavia DRM) - BD5/BD9/BD25/BD50.

[Ch3vr0n]

Anyone know if the panasonic with latest firmware (2.50) is affected ?

[setarip_old]

@Ch3vr0n

Hi!

I've not seen any postings about that model and firmware.

Presently, the only certain way for you to find out would be by trying to play the BluRay "The Losers" on that player...

[Chiamos]

On the bright side, those of you who have Panasonic Viera TVs with AVCHD support can play protected content, authored with multiAVCHD. The same structure causes my PS3 to mute the audio with 'cinavia' error, but the Panasonic plays it just fine :) That's in case you don't need subtitles and HD/DTS audio (chapters and AC3 audio only)... I'm using optical connection from the TV to the AV receiver so 640kbps 5.1 AC3 + 1920x1080 AVC/H.264 works just fine for me. :) No need to burn discs, too, because all is available via USB HDD.
Dean

Thanks Dean for the information, then the way to go for now around cinavia is PC Software Players and USB HDD connected to Viera TV that supports AVCHD for uninterrupted playback.:)

[Ch3vr0n]

@Ch3vr0n

Hi!

I've not seen any postings about that model and firmware.

Presently, the only certain way for you to find out would be by trying to play the BluRay "The Losers" on that player...

You mean by creating a fair-use backup on a BD-R with BDRB and playing on it ? If it was affected it would trigger the the cinavia ? If not how should i use BDRB alternate's output to see if it triggers.

Before i go out and purchase the disc, i need to know how i can know for sure if its affected. I'm currently in the process of moving into my own place so i don't exactly have the cash lying arround. Moving is expensive ^^

[setarip_old]

@Ch3vr0n

According to what's been posted, playing any type of burned disc backup of "The Losers" (made using an original BluRay disc, sellthrough or rental version, as the source) will trigger the Cinavia protection, if the particular player contains it...

[laserfan]

Of course, "The Losers" is a disc that you would never want-or-need a backup of, because you will watch it once and throw it in the trash. So truly its only value is as a Cinavia-checker! ;) :rolleyes:

[jdobbs]

Of course, "The Losers" is a disc that you would never want-or-need a backup of, because you will watch it once and throw it in the trash. So truly its only value is as a Cinavia-checker! ;) :rolleyes: I gotta' agree with that one. Worst villian-actor ever. :)

[Ch3vr0n]

@Setarip_old: thx for the explanation. Guess i got a shop to visit :)

[setarip_old]

@Ch3vr0n

As always, my pleasure ;>}

No rush - I don't think they're exactly "flying off the shelves"...

[deank]

Just a heads up: Karate Kid (2010) will be/is also protected by Cinavia. When the official blu-ray comes out we'll know for sure.

And from Cinavia website:Explanation

The audio track of the video that you are playing contains a Cinavia code indicating that it is an unauthorized copy of professionally-produced content.
Recommendations

If the video that you are playing is a professionally produced video (such as a movie or television show), you will need to obtain a copy that was made with the permission of the copyright owner.

If the video that you are playing is a home movie or other personal recording that includes some professionally produced content (including the audio track of a professionally produced video), to play your recording without muting you may either:

* Pause the video, wait 30 seconds for the audio to be un-muted, then skip over those portions where the professionally produced material is used and continue playing the rest of the video, or
* Pause the video, wait 30 seconds for the audio to be un-muted, then play video from a different optical disc for at least 10 minutes before continuing playback of this video.


:)

And about 'home content'...

Guidelines for use of protected content in home movies

The following guidelines can be used to ensure that Blu-ray Disc players will not use Cinavia technology to limit the playback and copying of your home movies or other personal recordings that include some professionally produced content (including the audio tracks of professionally produced movies or television shows):

1. Each use of the professionally produced content of up to 10 minutes must be separated from other uses of professionally produced content by at least 10 minutes of video.
2. The professionally produced content must not be used on a repeated or ongoing basis for any period of time longer than 10 minutes.

The above guidelines apply both to the use of professionally produced content in individual recordings as well as to the sequential playback or copying of these recordings by Blu-ray Disc players. In order to avoid having successive playback or copying of these videos interrupted, you should play 10 minutes of video from another optical disc that does not include any unauthorized usage of professionally produced content between each use.

For these guidelines to apply, the professionally produced content must be video that was originally distributed directly to consumers for use in their in-home or mobile devices. If the content was intended for duplication and use on professional equipment only (such as theatrical, airline, or hotel “on-demand” services), then these guidelines do not apply and use of this content in home movies and other personal recordings is never permitted.

[k-c-ksum]

so the audio mutes after 20mins. has anyone demuxed and cut the first 20 mins then remuxed to see if it mutes straight away?

[setarip_old]

@deank

Sounds like "timing" is everything - and is, perhaps, adjustable ;>}

[Ch3vr0n]

Quick question about loser & cinavia seta, if i use BDRB to output to diff format, and play the file from usb stick will it also trigger ?

[setarip_old]

@Ch3vr0n

Hi!

Fortunately (for me), my equipment pre-dates "Cinavia" so, unfortunately I can't provide any meaningful response to your question.

On the other hand, if your standalone player recognizes "Cinavia", have YOU tried playing a BD-RB-altered "The Losers" via a USB stick?

Also (I guess I'm a little behind the times here), what standalone players accept thumbdrives for input?

[happycase]

What would happen if I were to connect my PS3 to my tv through RGB component and ran the audio through a receiver via fiber optic? This would not trigger Civandia, right?

[jdobbs]

What would happen if I were to connect my PS3 to my tv through RGB component and ran the audio through a receiver via fiber optic? This would not trigger Civandia, right? I can't imagine why that would make a difference. The PS3 would stop playing the audio and therefore nothing goes to the receiver, fiber optic or not.

[RB Newbie]

What would happen if I were to connect my PS3 to my tv through RGB component and ran the audio through a receiver via fiber optic? This would not trigger Civandia, right?

It should trigger it.

If the PS3 sees the audio watermark and the video is not copy protected, it triggers. The watermark survives re-encoding and is robust enough that even if you filmed the original BluRay playing on your tv with a camcorder (with audio), it will trigger when playing the camcorder footage on the PS3.

I saw some stories that their are (unverified) claims that the HDCP master key has been cracked. If true, I'd expect a lot more interest in Cinavia from the content providers and a push to get it into TV sets. If Cinavia were publicly traded, I would have bought the stock on today's market opening.

[jdobbs]

If Cinavia were publicly traded, I would have bought the stock on today's market opening. Based on history, I'd predict that to be a bad investment. I'd put my bet on Slysoft... :) But then again, that would take all the fun drama out of this thread, wouldn't it?