Why dont you use EVR-CP as your renderer in MPC-HC?

[namaiki]

Oh geez. Another one with Frame Time Correction enabled, even though it's probably not doing anything here.

You've already tried both the "View-> Renderer Settings-> Reset" options?

Also, try enable or disable reclock vsync correction.

GL.

[Kazuya]

I tried all imaginable possibilities ! lol
This config is the best I found.

With or without FTC is the same result.

[Jong]

I think some occasional tearing at the top or bottom with the alternate vsync method is very very likely. With most renderers a buffer flip in hardware is done during vsync. All they do, I believe, is swap pointers around (don't have inside knowledge, but that's the textbook way) so it is almost instantaeous. Alternate sync as far as I can see writes straight to the front buffer in software. It takes time, and if Windows scheduling is a little late returning control to the rendering thread it will happen outside VBlank and you will see tearing. Not true with most other renderers. Vista and W7 will be better than XP as their scheduling is much improved.

[Kazuya]

And could some setup in the boot improved this feature ?

Actually I have this :

/noexecute=alwaysoff /fastdetect /usepmtimer /nodebug /timeres=9766

First my XP SP3 use this one :

/noexecute=optin /fastdetect /usepmtimer

Didn't see any differences but maybe an other ?

[Mark_A_W]

"Why dont you use EVR-CP as your renderer in MPC-HC? "


Confusion.


I don't know which version to pick.

I don't understand what settings to use.

I don't how I should use it with Reclock.

It would be very nice if you could make it a standalone renderer.


Currently, for critical playback on my projector, I use Zoomplayer with madVR and Reclock. It's very, very smooth, and looks very nice.

If EVR-Sync can eliminate the need for Reclock (or the resampling bit of reclock), and look as good as madVR, then I'm very interested.

If it is a standalone renderer, then I'll jump on it.

[Fadeout]

I posted the problem in the DXVA thread but it was unanswered and not related to DXVA:

I'm using SVN 1834 on W7 and latest ATI drivers, so with DXVA enabled, but the problem exists no matter if DXVA is on or off and is completely unrelated to CPU (since usage stays very low).

The problem is directly related to subtitles. When there's more than one line, or subtitles appearing more quickly than usual, then I get stutters in the video.

If using EVR Custom Pres I get some heavy stutters and the Statistics tab shows it's skipping blocks of frames. Instead with EVR Synch the stuttering is less noticeable, statistics show no frames are being dropped, but the details show a HUGE number of constant synch glitches.

As soon I disable subtitles, the problems goes away. The same no matter if I use DXVA or other software decoders, it's entirely related to subs and I see small or high spikes in the graph every time a sub is being shown. I also tried to change buffering of subs but nothing actually changes.

[namaiki]

I posted the problem in the DXVA thread but it was unanswered and not related to DXVA:

I'm using SVN 1834 on W7 and latest ATI drivers, so with DXVA enabled, but the problem exists no matter if DXVA is on or off and is completely unrelated to CPU (since usage stays very low).

The problem is directly related to subtitles. When there's more than one line, or subtitles appearing more quickly than usual, then I get stutters in the video.

If using EVR Custom Pres I get some heavy stutters and the Statistics tab shows it's skipping blocks of frames. Instead with EVR Synch the stuttering is less noticeable, statistics show no frames are being dropped, but the details show a HUGE number of constant synch glitches.

As soon I disable subtitles, the problems goes away. The same no matter if I use DXVA or other software decoders, it's entirely related to subs and I see small or high spikes in the graph every time a sub is being shown. I also tried to change buffering of subs but nothing actually changes.

What's the GPU? Sounds like it's too slow for your settings. Try lower the subtitle texture resolution or disable animation.

[Fadeout]

The GPU can do easily even 5.1 at 1080p. I have an ATI 4850, I guess it should be good enough. This happened with a lower resolution video, and even VLC can play it with subs and no stutters. Same for Windows Media Player, it seems to work without any stuttering.

EDIT: And now the problem vanished after it was there for various days. All the settings are the same, no idea what's up.

[namaiki]

The GPU can do easily even 5.1 at 1080p
.....
That has nothing to do with the rest.

VLC can play it with subs and no stutters. Same for Windows Media Player
.....
Different subtitle renderer.

If you want to more or less guarantee no stuttering with subtitles, you can use DirectVobSub, but there will be no DXVA option with that.

[lych_necross]

@Mark_A_W
What about MPC-HC with MadVR and Reclock? Is it better than ZP w/MadVR and reclock?
EDIT: (Better as in perceived quality)

[Mark_A_W]

@Mark_A_W
What about MPC-HC with MadVR and Reclock? Is it better than ZP w/MadVR and reclock?
EDIT: (Better as in perceived quality)



Well, with the same filters, quality is going to be the same.


And...umm...I know this is blasphemy here...forgive me...but ZP is a more mature player than MPC. The filter control is much more powerful, and it has a built in front end (I use both), and the GUI is much nicer.

I do use MPC-HC, but usually for watching recorded TV shows on the PC, not in the HT on the projector. I actually use MPC-HC 10x more than ZP, just a different purpose.

Hence my request for a standalone EVR-CP renderer filter.

[lych_necross]

And...umm...I know this is blasphemy here...forgive me...but ZP is a more mature player than MPC.
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/02/06/body_snatchers_080128110655013_wideweb__300x210.jpg
:D :p
ZP also has a more stable development team and crashes less. I will have to look into it as MPC still has that annoying random crash while seeking.

[tetsuo55]

And...umm...I know this is blasphemy here...forgive me...but ZP is a more mature player than MPC. Your comparing expencive payware with an open source hobby project? (but yes ZP is a nice player)

The filter control is much more powerful, Can you explain in detail what, why and how it is more powerfull?

and it has a built in front end (I use both), and the GUI is much nicer.We dont believe a frontend or gui should slow down how fast the player opens and starts to play the video.
For eyecandy lovers we recommend XBMC(for windows) or Mediaportal, they're dshow players are based on mpc-hc. And we are trying to work closely with those devs to get all 3 players more in line as far as the dshow part is concerned.
ZP also has a more stable development team and crashes less. I will have to look into it as MPC still has that annoying random crash while seeking.We don't have any devs right now, some people are trying to create some free time over the weekend, but the economic crisis isnt helping

[Kazuya]

For eyecandy lovers we recommend XBMC(for windows) or Mediaportal, they're dshow players are based on mpc-hc. And we are trying to work closely with those devs to get all 3 players more in line as far as the dshow part is concerned.


Hi Tetsuo ! I made a setup for XBMC + MPC-HC, ffdshow and reclock fully tuned by myself for 1080P or 720P display.
It's here :

http://passion-xbmc.org/downloads/?sa=view;down=98

Sorry, french version only for the moment (but english with a little change).
And support page :

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1196&t=29937725

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5240/clip21resize.png

[Mark_A_W]

Your comparing expencive payware with an open source hobby project? (but yes ZP is a nice player)

Can you explain in detail what, why and how it is more powerfull?

We dont believe a frontend or gui should slow down how fast the player opens and starts to play the video.
For eyecandy lovers we recommend XBMC(for windows) or Mediaportal, they're dshow players are based on mpc-hc. And we are trying to work closely with those devs to get all 3 players more in line as far as the dshow part is concerned.
We don't have any devs right now, some people are trying to create some free time over the weekend, but the economic crisis isnt helping


I use XBMC on my TV HTPC. Hacked two xbox remotes receivers and use them on both my HTPCs.

Mediaportal...well...I tried, but it drove me barmy.


I'm not really comparing ZP with MPC-HC - like I said I use them both. The simple front end of ZP is good enough to drive with a remote when I use my main PC to drive my HT, without going to the effort of running a full front end (I'm typing this on the same PC now).


As for Filter control, well ZP is more powerful. It's also much harder to use.

I have a convoluted filter path to do Room Correction using Convolver Wrapper.

A typical Audio filter path is: MPC-HC Matroska Splitter-> madFlac->ffdshow audio->Convolver wrapper-> Reclock.

What ZP allows me to do is pic different, explicit filter paths for different file types or different codecs (by filter sub type). It's complex yet quite simple - in the end you just list them in order for that audio type and it does it.

MPC, with it's slightly improved merit based control, just can't give me the flexibility.

(On the other hand, if I want to turn off convolver in ZP I have to change about 5 different audio decoder filter paths to do so...).

And yes, ZP cost money. I bought it bit by bit over the last 10 years. But it's not commercial in quite the same way as TMT or Powerdvd.

MPC is better for just installing and using (but I do wish a good explanation of the EVR-CP renderer was available...I'm lost).


They are complementary, not competitors.

Mark

[namaiki]

(but I do wish a good explanation of the EVR-CP renderer was available...I'm lost)


This is just about as good as it gets: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1281093#post1281093

Though you've probably seen it already.

[dansrfe]

EVR-CP has a higher jitter (10-11ms) than Haali Renderer does (3-4ms). madVR gives me 0ms jitter but I seriously think that's a lie considering that it "jitters" with obviousness to my eyes every 2 seconds or so. Also Anamorphic DVD Menu hotspot buttons are still not properly aligned in EVR-CP therefore that becomes another big reason not to use it. If those 2 issues are fixed then I'll set EVR-CP as my renderer permanently.

[madshi]

madVR gives me 0ms jitter
Where do you see that?

but I seriously think that's a lie considering that it "jitters" with obviousness to my eyes every 2 seconds or so.
That shouldn't be the case if your GPU is fast enough and your display refresh rate matches the movie frame rate. If you want to have help getting madVR to work properly, you may want to describe your problems in the madVR thread in more detail.

[dansrfe]

The jitter is what MPC-HC tells me in the stats and as far as GPU goes I have a ATi Radeon Mobility HD 4570 w/ 1GB GDDR3. On top of that I've never seen a 24fps refresh rate or a multiple of that widely available in a laptop or for that matter, even most desktop screens. Most people have a 60Hz monitor. The main problem I'm having with madVR is a slight "judder" every 2 seconds or so, which interrupts smooth motion. I'm using CoreAVC for decoding and there are absolutely no other filters interfering with the decoding process for the AVC stream. Haali Renderer on the other hand produces smooth motion 99.9% of the time on all MPEG-4/AVC material that I play. I like your renderer very much in terms of the actual render quality, however jittery motion causes viewing discomfort. There might be a substantial chance that I'm doing something wrong though :(

[Mark_A_W]

You can't have smooth motion for films at 60hz. So any comments about real smoothness are nonsense. What you may see is mistakes in the 3:2 cadence (vomit).

Most people who care about video don't watch film at 60hz. My analog projector is true multisync, and my plasma does 24p (displayed at 48hz).

[lych_necross]

You can't have smooth motion for films at 60hz. So any comments about real smoothness are nonsense. What you may see is mistakes in the 3:2 cadence (vomit).

Most people who care about video don't watch film at 60hz. My analog projector is true multisync, and my plasma does 24p (displayed at 48hz).
You can too watch movies smoothly at 60hz... if their fps is 29.97i.

[Mark_A_W]

You can too watch movies smoothly at 60hz... if their fps is 29.97i.

Not if they were shot on film.

29.97 is what you get with 3:2 pulldown.

[madshi]

The jitter is what MPC-HC tells me in the stats
Hmmmm... I don't see such a stat for madVR in my MPC-HC. Did I miss it somehow? How/where did you find those stats?

I've never seen a 24fps refresh rate or a multiple of that widely available in a laptop or for that matter, even most desktop screens. Most people have a 60Hz monitor. The main problem I'm having with madVR is a slight "judder" every 2 seconds or so, which interrupts smooth motion.
That shouldn't happen. Maybe it will be fixed with the next madVR version, or maybe not. Are you using Reclock? If so, turn VSync correction in Reclock off, when using madVR.

You can't have smooth motion for films at 60hz. So any comments about real smoothness are nonsense. What you may see is mistakes in the 3:2 cadence (vomit).
Many people are used to the 3:2 motion judder. It's not really smooth motion, but it's "ok". I'm quite sure that what dansrfe is seeing is much worse than the 3:2 motion judder.

[dansrfe]

I'm not using VSync or Reclock at all. The jitter stats the MPC-HC shows can be revealed with (Ctrl+4). All of the files I play back are 23.976 progressive or 24 fps progressive. There's absolutely no way I send a interlaced stream to any renderer. The audio renderer I'm using is the DirectShow one for my sound card under the output options in MPC-HC. The judder is not like a start/stop sort of problem but more of a "slow motion" for 0.5 seconds every 3-4 seconds. I guess it's something that wouldn't be noticeable to the average user but I definitely see a difference vs Haali's renderer at default settings. If it makes any difference I send a RGB32 stream to Haali and a yv12 stream to madVR through the different CoreAVC output options since Haali's renderer doesn't really do a good job in terms of colorspace presentation and level conversions.

[madshi]

The jitter stats the MPC-HC shows can be revealed with (Ctrl+4).
Interesting. Didn't know that one. Don't know where MPC HC gets the jitter information from.

All of the files I play back are 23.976 progressive or 24 fps progressive. There's absolutely no way I send a interlaced stream to any renderer. The audio renderer I'm using is the DirectShow one for my sound card under the output options in MPC-HC. The judder is not like a start/stop sort of problem but more of a "slow motion" for 0.5 seconds every 3-4 seconds. I guess it's something that wouldn't be noticeable to the average user but I definitely see a difference vs Haali's renderer at default settings.
If this problem still occurs with the next (not released yet) version of madVR, then it would help if you could create a log. The next madVR version will ship with a debug version which will create logs, so I can analyze such judder / slow motion problems...

[tetsuo55]

It almost looks like the dshow graph provides this information, but we wont be sure untill someone looks in the code.

[dansrfe]

I will be waiting for it :)

[madshi]

It almost looks like the dshow graph provides this information
That would make sense, I think.

[tetsuo55]

We use this interface to get it
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd376915(VS.85).aspx

[namaiki]

If it makes any difference I send a RGB32 stream to Haali and a yv12 stream to madVR through the different CoreAVC output options since Haali's renderer doesn't really do a good job in terms of colorspace presentation and level conversions.
By the way, you should have a look at ffdshow video's RGB32 + dither output, if you're like most users who have to convert from TV levels to PC levels for your monitor.

[dansrfe]

By the way, you should have a look at ffdshow video's RGB32 + dither output, if you're like most users who have to convert from TV levels to PC levels for your monitor.

I use ffdshow's HQRGB32 output as well but only for material other than H.264/AVC. All H.264/AVC material is strictly set for decoding with CoreAVC and no other filter interferes with it.

[namaiki]

I use ffdshow's HQRGB32 output as well but only for material other than H.264/AVC. All H.264/AVC material is strictly set for decoding with CoreAVC and no other filter interferes with it.

What I mean is I wouldn't use CoreAVC for level conversions, nor for conversion to RGB32. CoreAVC-> YV12 is fine as long as there are not any level conversions (possible with CoreAVC).

I'm still doing testing of this though..

Refer to: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1371829#post1371829 which marks ffdshow video RGB32+Dithering as king IMO for all video renderers that aren't MadVR.


By the way, I actually do use EVR-CP. Just with FFDshow Video feeding it RGB32+Dithered output.

[madshi]

We use this interface to get it
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd376915(VS.85).aspx
Thanks!

[dansrfe]

Any update madshi?

[namaiki]

dansrfe, what are the rendering times, and the frame rate of video?

[mikeggsm]

What are the other reasons for you to not use EVR-CP?
The EVR Custom Presenter doesn't take into account the display aspect ratio of the file when taking screenshots (File->Save Image). If the ratio of horizontal pixels by vertical pixels of the video is different from the display aspect ratio of the file, then screenshots look distorted.

This is a deal breaker for me so I use EVR instead.

[namaiki]

mikeggsm, if you have a decent Radeon or GeForce graphics card, please use Overlay Mixer. The scaling is so much better.

[mikeggsm]

I have tried all renderers and EVR is the only one which works for everything, I spent some time and headaches on this.

In any case overlay mixer can't take screenshots, as indicated by the * next to it. Deal breaker for me.

[namaiki]

Video quality matters more for me. Maybe you could try use VMR7(don't know which one) if it inherits the quality scaler of Overlay.

[neoufo51]

For the past 2 weeks, the latest builds of MPC-HC have been skipping in terms of playback whenever I move the progress bar and switching to EVR from EVR-CP fixed the problem entirely.

[namaiki]

nVidia card and latest drivers and avi?

[XhmikosR]

The Nvidia drivers issue is not an .avi specific issue. It happens with every video with MPC-HC + EVR CP.

[namaiki]

My bad. I've never experienced it, probably because I'm on Forceware 186.84.


..I just happened to hear from a couple of people that it only occurred when they were playing avi files. Doesn't make sense, but then again, no one seems to know the cause.

[XhmikosR]

Well, the Nvidia people should know the cause; they introduced it. But I guess they never listen to bug reports.

[neoufo51]

The Nvidia drivers issue is not an .avi specific issue. It happens with every video with MPC-HC + EVR CP.
I can confirm this.

[Mark_A_W]

I've been playing with EVR-CP and EVR-Sync on my dual monitor system.

When playing on the secondary monitor, EVR-CP corrected detects the refresh rate as 95.904hz.

But EVR-Sync incorrectly detects the primary monitor refresh rate instead.

[TinTime]

From our standpoint, there is only one reason not to use EVR-CP and that is if you want to use h264 DXVA on XP.

Having just moved from XP to Windows 7 I've found a similar reason to this. I've got an nvidia 8600GT which offers partial DXVA for VC-1 with WMVideo Decoder DMO, but (it seems) only with VMR-7 / 9.