Why dont you use EVR-CP as your renderer in MPC-HC?

[tetsuo55]

There has been a lot of talk about different problems with different renderers.

The last year team MPC-HC has spent of all its time on improving EVR-CP (we now even have a new EVR-SYNC branch which should improve a lot over the comming months)

From our standpoint, there is only one reason not to use EVR-CP and that is if you want to use h264 DXVA on XP.

What are the other reasons for you to not use EVR-CP?
Please provide as much information as possible, like screenshot comparisons and benchmarks.

Our intention is to keep working on EVR-SYNC and try to fix all the issues with it that force some users to use different renderers.

[Virtual_ManPL]

Some EVR-Sync bugs I reported here

Sync Offset
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1370324#post1370324

Glitches
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1372586#post1372586

And now Im using EVR-Custom, cause this glitches in EVR-Sync are extremely annoying...

[tetsuo55]

Some EVR-Sync bugs I reported here

Sync Offset
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1370324#post1370324

Glitches
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1372586#post1372586

And now Im using EVR-Custom, cause this glitches in EVR-Sync are extremely annoying...The sync renderer is undergoing refactoring right now, those bugs will have to be retested when a new update to it comes out.

[allak]

Performance on old hardware.

On my desktop PC I use EVR-CP, it has a Core2 Duo and a midrange Nvidia card and I do not have any problem.

But on my three year old laptop with a P4 and some integrated Intel graphics chip I am unable to playback 720p without glitches or slowdowns, so I use Haali renderer.

Obviously this scenario is going to disappear in the not so far future, as the old hardware is going to be retired.

FWIW, I do not have any use for all the other renderers integrated in MPC-HC.

[allak]

A somewhat related wish: I would love to see the FFdshow output option "High quality YV12 to RGB conversion" ported to mpc-hc.

For me right now it is the only reason I have FFdshow installed on my main computer.

I like that functionality because it makes it possible to bypass the often broken colorspace conversion functionality of the video card drivers.

The final result is sort of like the MadVR renderer, minus the 3dlut option.

[stax76]

I don't use it because it starts too slow. It appears to be a mistake using resources for internal components instead of supporting external components first. I can choose external components but they don't work properly, there are bugs and limitations that could be fixed or at least worked around. The unfortunate result is both internal and external things don't work properly.

[tetsuo55]

But on my three year old laptop with a P4 and some integrated Intel graphics chip I am unable to playback 720p without glitches or slowdowns, so I use Haali renderer.We are trying to solve this problem in EVR-SYNC, but i expect it will still take some months before performance is up to par with at least haali and hopefully vmr7 windowed
A somewhat related wish: I would love to see the FFdshow output option "High quality YV12 to RGB conversion" ported to mpc-hc.

For me right now it is the only reason I have FFdshow installed on my main computer.

I like that functionality because it makes it possible to bypass the often broken colorspace conversion functionality of the video card drivers.

The final result is sort of like the MadVR renderer, minus the 3dlut option.Can you add a feature request for this on the tracker? http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/mpc-hc/wiki/How_to_Report_Issues
I don't use it because it starts too slow. It appears to be a mistake using resources for internal components instead of supporting external components first. I can choose external components but they don't work properly, there are bugs and limitations that could be fixed or at least worked around. The unfortunate result is both internal and external things don't work properly.We fixed this bug some time ago, please try a nightly build --> http://www.xvidvideo.ru/content/category/1/1/2/

[Astrophizz]

Performance vs Haali's renderer (notably in the bicubic scaler). I've been told that Haali's scaler is flawed but I haven't seen any evidence or anything else to back that up.

[namaiki]

Personally, I hate Bicubic, though Bilinear is alright.. for a small screen.

I use EVR-CP on my laptop with the Intel graphics, but I prefer MadVR by a mile as it has an awesome scaling inbuilt that I don't have to manually set for resolution as in with FFDShow video.

I don't use Sync Renderer as I haven't had a try at figuring it out yet.. unlike EVR-CP which is fully automatic with default settings.


The final result is sort of like the MadVR renderer
What resizing algorithm are you using?

[burfadel]

I use EVR-CP at the moment but have disabled the internal XVID/h264 decoders to use ffdshow as well. The port of high quality yv12 to RGB conversion' would be great, as well as 'dithering'. I also use the deband filter set to around 1.4 (it does look nicer), and I add noise using the 'mplayer' noise, luma strength 9 (the only useful setting, if ported should be adjustable), no chroma noise, average, pattern, and uniform. The slight addition of the noise actually improves the visual quality (as long as its only sligh noise). Mplayer noise seems to be much more useful than the other noise.

I know that was slightly off topic, but it may relate to other people and the way they use the renderers etc!

[somy]

When EVR Sync expand video level to PC level (16-235 to 0-255), it always produces banding.

For me, I just want to find a render that works with DXVA and apply dither after luma conversion, and I know it is possible because PowerDVD can do without banding

[allak]

We are trying to solve this problem in EVR-SYNC, but i expect it will still take some months before performance is up to par with at least haali and hopefully vmr7 windowed

I was under the impression that the EVR-SYNC renderer is only useful for a monitor that has a refresh as close as possible to a multiple of the frame rate of the video.

So I've always thought that it is mostly useful for playback on television sets, because most PC and laptops monitor use 60Hz LCD.

Is that incorrect ?


Can you add a feature request for this on the tracker? http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/mpc-hc/wiki/How_to_Report_Issues


Done, ticket #312.

[tetsuo55]

Performance vs Haali's renderer (notably in the bicubic scaler). I've been told that Haali's scaler is flawed but I haven't seen any evidence or anything else to back that up.it would be helpfull if there was a benchmark and image quality comparison for these 2, so the difference in speed a quality was proven.I use EVR-CP at the moment but have disabled the internal XVID/h264 decoders to use ffdshow as well. The port of high quality yv12 to RGB conversion' would be great, as well as 'dithering'. I also use the deband filter set to around 1.4 (it does look nicer), and I add noise using the 'mplayer' noise, luma strength 9 (the only useful setting, if ported should be adjustable), no chroma noise, average, pattern, and uniform. The slight addition of the noise actually improves the visual quality (as long as its only sligh noise). Mplayer noise seems to be much more useful than the other noise.

I know that was slightly off topic, but it may relate to other people and the way they use the renderers etc!At this point we do not intend to include these types of post processing, other than the ones supported by videocard hardware, although the rgb conversion thing might be interesting.

When EVR Sync expand video level to PC level (16-235 to 0-255), it always produces banding.

For me, I just want to find a render that works with DXVA and apply dither after luma conversion, and I know it is possible because PowerDVD can do without bandingThis banding should not occur, can you try to explain what is going on and provide screenshots etc...??
Please read this for more info on how to provide a report for this issue: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/mpc-hc/wiki/How_to_Report_Issues

I was under the impression that the EVR-SYNC renderer is only useful for a monitor that has a refresh as close as possible to a multiple of the frame rate of the video.

So I've always thought that it is mostly useful for playback on television sets, because most PC and laptops monitor use 60Hz LCD.

Is that incorrect ?.That is just one of the many changes going on in EVR-SYNC a secondary goal is to bring system requirements down as much as possible.

[edigee]

I understand this is a thread for EVR-CP and EVR_Sync problems report not necessarly only the reasons for not using it .....
I've been using EVR Sync for quite a while because it gives me a smoother video playback on my 60Hz display. However, I experience some strange audio behaviors on 23.976 fps videos ;small scratch noises from time to time-randomly(like an old vinyl record). That issue is present, no matter what audio renderer i'm using. I discovered that the problem dissapears only when i tick the 44.1Khz downsample option in audio switcher. Still, I have some very short audio stops(a couple of ms) from time to time. When I'm checking the audio device during playback it shows some errors there-maybe that information is useful.
HD 3650 AGP, 10.2 ATI AGP hotfix, MPC_HC build 1694, EVR Sync ,Sync video to display, Realtek HD audio sound device integrated, Vista 32bit

[Dark Shikari]

EVR-CP is simply way too slow. Overlay is fast enough that I can play 3840x2160 video and it displays just fine. Anything larger than my monitor size tends to lag under Haali or EVR.

[somy]

This banding should not occur, can you try to explain what is going on and provide screenshots etc...??
Please read this for more info on how to provide a report for this issue: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/mpc-hc/wiki/How_to_Report_Issues


Hi Tetsuo,

Thanks for your reply.
The problem can be reproduced by feeding YV12 or NV12 to EVR CP. EVR CP needs to expand YV12 16-235 to RGB 0-255, and this step causes banding. I have to use FFDShow to convert from YUC to RGB in order to avoid banding. The screenshots are here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1371829#post1371829
Thanks a lot again!

[tetsuo55]

I understand this is a thread for EVR-CP and EVR_Sync problems report not necessarly only the reasons for not using it .....
I've been using EVR Sync for quite a while because it gives me a smoother video playback on my 60Hz display. However, I experience some strange audio behaviors on 23.976 fps videos ;small scratch noises from time to time-randomly(like an old vinyl record). That issue is present, no matter what audio renderer i'm using. I discovered that the problem dissapears only when i tick the 44.1Khz downsample option in audio switcher. Still, I have some very short audio stops(a couple of ms) from time to time. When I'm checking the audio device during playback it shows some errors there-maybe that information is useful.
HD 3650 AGP, 10.2 ATI AGP hotfix, MPC_HC build 1694, EVR Sync ,Sync video to display, Realtek HD audio sound device integrated, Vista 32bitdoes the same occur with EVR-CP, or only with EVR-SYNC?
If it happens in both please read this and open a ticket http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/mpc-hc/wiki/How_to_Report_Issues
If it only happens in EVR-SYNC please report it here(using the same method described in above document): http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=148221EVR-CP is simply way too slow. Overlay is fast enough that I can play 3840x2160 video and it displays just fine. Anything larger than my monitor size tends to lag under Haali or EVR.Can you provide us with a sample? We can use that for benchmarking speeds on faster pc's
Hi Tetsuo,

Thanks for your reply.
The problem can be reproduced by feeding YV12 or NV12 to EVR CP. EVR CP needs to expand YV12 16-235 to RGB 0-255, and this step causes banding. I have to use FFDShow to convert from YUC to RGB in order to avoid banding. The screenshots are here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1371829#post1371829
Thanks a lot again!Ok please open a ticket for this issue on the tracker as explained in the link i gave

[ikarad]

problem with evr-sync and xp
I have problem with mpc-hc and syncronization parameter
I have geforce gtx280 195.62 and xp sp3 and 120 hz crt display at 1280*1024 (video at 23.97 fps)

I use evr sync parameter and sync to display parameter

I have problem with fullscreen

when fullscreen is activated
http://nsa13.casimages.com/img/2010/02/21/mini_10022106233791400.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=10022106233791400.jpg)

when seekbar is open in, fullscreen mode or in windowed mode
http://nsa12.casimages.com/img/2010/02/21/mini_10022106294432394.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=10022106294432394.jpg)

http://nsa13.casimages.com/img/2010/02/21/mini_100221062818285588.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=100221062818285588.jpg)

We can notice that red line is not synchronized with fullscreen is turn on.

It's the same thing with present at nearest vsync option

This problem appear also with evr custom and beliyaal optimization


same thing at 1280*1024 at 96 hz
fulscreen mode
http://nsa13.casimages.com/img/2010/02/21/mini_100221063821419656.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=100221063821419656.jpg)

seek bar on and windowed mode
http://nsa13.casimages.com/img/2010/02/21/mini_100221063818264420.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=100221063818264420.jpg)

http://nsa13.casimages.com/img/2010/02/21/mini_100221063823807993.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=100221063823807993.jpg)


this problem doesn't appeared at 72 hz

http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/mpc-hc/ticket/302

[pirlouy]

@Tetsuo55: here is a well-know sample of very high resolution:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4197285/Killer_Sample_-_Quad_Full_High_Definition (legal link)

I also use Overlay since it never crashes and with reclock, it works wery well in order to have sync. I also think seeking is faster with overlay.

But EVR Sync and EVR Custom are good alternatives.

[tetsuo55]

@Tetsuo55: here is a well-know sample of very high resolution:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4197285/Killer_Sample_-_Quad_Full_High_Definition (legal link)

I also use Overlay since it never crashes and with reclock, it works wery well in order to have sync. I also think seeking is faster with overlay.

But EVR Sync and EVR Custom are good alternatives.thanks

[edigee]

does the same occur with EVR-CP, or only with EVR-SYNC?
If it happens in both please read this and open a ticket http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/mpc-hc/wiki/How_to_Report_Issues
If it only happens in EVR-SYNC please report it here(using the same method described in above document): http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=148221

Thanks for the reply.
The sound problem occurs only in EVR Sync. I've already reported it in that thread. Still waiting for a reply there...
Maybe I should use Reclock to fix that issue...

[GrofLuigi]

I'm waiting this fix (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1372940#post1372940) to be incorporated in the main build. I can't believe noone else had the problem. :confused:

GL

[tetsuo55]

Please keep in mind that EVR-SYNC should be considered "Alpha" and is subject to many changes over the comming months.

[nightfly]

@ precisely 1:50:58 in the BD movie 2012 there is a terrible glitch using any recent build of MPC-HC, EVR CP/EVR Sync (any setting) that does NOT occur using VMR9, 7, overlay, etc.

The glitch occurs right after the Arabs on the catwalk and the cut back to the president's daughter and the scientist arguing about "selling tickets".

This is on a Nvidia 220 or i3-530 Clarksdale.

Also, in Ratatouille, the scene of the rat in the spice rack jumping down to the cook book and then subsequently jumping down to the table always results in some dropped frames - but I still get smooth playback.

[XhmikosR]

nightfly: Create a new ticket providing samples which contain those problematic scenes.

[THX-UltraII]

Why is EVR-SYNC needed anyway? EVR CP seems to do everything you need not?

[nightfly]

Why is EVR-SYNC needed anyway? EVR CP seems to do everything you need not?

Yeah, I wonder too. In testing build 1741 and trying to resolve the 2012/Ratatouille drop frames issue, I was never able to get EVR CP Sync to not drop any frames. Once I enabled "Alternate Vsync" for EVR CP, for Ratatouille at least, I didn't get any dropped frames at all so in my mind, that's clearly the best setup for now.

[nightfly]

nightfly: Create a new ticket providing samples which contain those problematic scenes.

Will do. I've resolved my Ratatouille issues using Alt Sync for EVR CP, but have been unable to affect the 2012 issue except for switching renderers.

[tetsuo55]

Why is EVR-SYNC needed anyway? EVR CP seems to do everything you need not?EVR-Sync is the next evolution of EVR-CP mostly aimed at perfect timing of videoframes to remove/reduce judder

[namaiki]

Is there going to be an automatic version of EVR-Sync?

[tetsuo55]

Please explain what you mean by "automatic"

[namaiki]

Are evr-sync default settings alright for use?

Would you expect 29.970fps on 61.8Hz screen to work fine? The red line has a sharp downward spike about twice a second, visible as for instance pans in the video are jerky twice a second. I have the same experience on EVR-custom pres. and have to use Reclock(29.970-> ~31fps), but I thought I would be able to get a away with it using EVR sync without Reclock.

[Razoola]

Are evr-sync default settings alright for use?

Would you expect 29.970fps on 61.8Hz screen to work fine? The red line has a sharp downward spike about twice a second, visible as for instance pans in the video are jerky twice a second. I have the same experience on EVR-custom pres. and have to use Reclock(29.970-> ~31fps), but I thought I would be able to get a away with it using EVR sync without Reclock.

I have a feeling that once evr-sync is completed there will be no need for reclock if judder is your only concern. It will be down to how MPC-HC handles audio in relation to evr-sync to stop lip sync issues that will decide if you want to still use reclock or not.

Currently I'm use EVR-sync with its 'present at nearest vsync' setting and reclock with its vsync option enabled (for evr only). Works great.

[tetsuo55]

Are evr-sync default settings alright for use?

Would you expect 29.970fps on 61.8Hz screen to work fine? The red line has a sharp downward spike about twice a second, visible as for instance pans in the video are jerky twice a second. I have the same experience on EVR-custom pres. and have to use Reclock(29.970-> ~31fps), but I thought I would be able to get a away with it using EVR sync without Reclock.there is no code yet to handle non-matching refreshrates. So yes the default mode is best for that condition, it will make sure the frames arrive at the best possible time considering your less than ideal situations

[nightfly]

I wanted to followup on my 2012 "major stutter" issue @ ~1hr 50min into film.

After further testing, I was able to reproduce the issue using just EVR using MPC-HC and Zoomplayer - so clearly not an EVR-CP issue. Methinks in fact that it's a EVR issue period as using any VMR renderer it does not occur.

[tetsuo55]

I wanted to followup on my 2012 "major stutter" issue @ ~1hr 50min into film.

After further testing, I was able to reproduce the issue using just EVR using MPC-HC and Zoomplayer - so clearly not an EVR-CP issue. Methinks in fact that it's a EVR issue period as using any VMR renderer it does not occur.We found out its caused by one of the newer nvidia drivers, a build from around january should not have this problem.

[Khaaan!]

Just checking out these sync settings, below is a screenshot showing my MPC-HC with VSync off (left side of graph) and with it on using Alternative Sync (right).

I assume the left side is how it should look or am I interpreting it incorrectly?

http://robbiekhan.co.uk/root/temp/mpcvsync.jpg

[mariush]

I'm not using EVR because both types didn't work properly when I last tried them (see the issue i had here:http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1387200#post1387200). VMR9 renderless worked great.

[tetsuo55]

The vsync "off" graph is what you would want yes, but its probably a lie because your refreshrates do not match, the vsync side more accurately represents whats going on.

[Khaaan!]

Ah thanks, everything seems nicely in sync though so will leave on I think!

[nightfly]

We found out its caused by one of the newer nvidia drivers, a build from around january should not have this problem.

Well, not for me, I am running 190.62, one of the more stable versions with predictable video levels. This was released last Oct.

More importantly, from what I understand, the newer drivers cause constant/semi-constant stutters. That's not the case for this issue. It's a one and done glitch. The entire movie plays back great except for this one issue (using EVR based renderers).

[Frank K Abbott]

I get horizontal tearing and I dvd menu hotspot buttons do not work with EVR-CP for some reason. That's why I'm still with Haali but if someone can improve EVR-CP and fix those issues then I would really like to set it as my default in MPC-HC.

[clsid]

DVD menu effects are essentially just subtitles. Subtitles do not work properly in MPC when playing DVD if a decoder is used that uses DXVA. It should work ok when using the internal MPEG-2 decoder (non-DXVA).

[Frank K Abbott]

DVD menu effects are essentially just subtitles. Subtitles do not work properly in MPC when playing DVD if a decoder is used that uses DXVA. It should work ok when using the internal MPEG-2 decoder (non-DXVA).

My configuration is (from filter list when playing dvd):

DVD Navigator, fffdshow video decoder (libmpeg2 w/dvd decoding), ffdshow audio decoder


I have DXVA off and the sup subtitles display properly.

It's just that the button hotspots do not function properly even though it shows the "highlight" of the hotspot the mouse is on top of.

As a side question regarding Haali and maybe some other renderers: Is it abnormal for the button hotspot of the dvd to be offcenter from the hotspot "highlight" most of the time or is it just that most dvds have screwed up hotspot placements and are not right on top of the highlight? Some dvds work with a click right on the hotspot highlight but most dvds I come across have it offcenter most of the time so I have to end up "hunting" for the clicking place even the the highlight of the hotspot seems "selected".

[Frank K Abbott]

^Please help anyone?

[namaiki]

Try change the aspect ratio of the video menu.

[Frank K Abbott]

still doesn't work

[Frank K Abbott]

I guess it can be concluded that EVR-CP cannot handle DVD menus correctly proven through testing on an NTSC/PAL 4:3,16:9 dvds.

[Kazuya]

Is this thread still usefull ?

I found a reason to not use EVR Custom : when you found the extreme smoothness you want, there's always a little annoying tearing at the top of the screen !
Sometimes rock stable, sometimes erratic.

And I'm pretty sure all people using Alternative Vsync mode on EVR custom with Reclock get this problem, with XP SP3 anyways.

Jong, which is making reclock support, explain me it like this :

IMO it is your Vsync offset that is causing your problem. You are presenting the frame too close to vsync. Trouble is, with that renderer and using alternate vsync I think moving it away from vsync will show tearing. If a remember correctly EVR Custom in alternate vsync mode writes straight to the front buffer, so tearing is easily visible unless hidden in VBlank.

DO you think you can make something to fix it ?
Maybe add a tune for the presenting frame timing ? (like EVR Sync)

[Kazuya]

I can't capture tearing by a screenshot, but it appears in the same time of the little waves on this screenshot in the top of the screen (around the third line starting from the top) :
(pretty rare so much)

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7662/clip22resize.jpg

[namaiki]

Oh geez. Another one with Frame Time Correction enabled, even though it's probably not doing anything here.

You've already tried both the "View-> Renderer Settings-> Reset" options?

Also, try enable or disable reclock vsync correction.

GL.

[Kazuya]

I tried all imaginable possibilities ! lol
This config is the best I found.

With or without FTC is the same result.

[Jong]

I think some occasional tearing at the top or bottom with the alternate vsync method is very very likely. With most renderers a buffer flip in hardware is done during vsync. All they do, I believe, is swap pointers around (don't have inside knowledge, but that's the textbook way) so it is almost instantaeous. Alternate sync as far as I can see writes straight to the front buffer in software. It takes time, and if Windows scheduling is a little late returning control to the rendering thread it will happen outside VBlank and you will see tearing. Not true with most other renderers. Vista and W7 will be better than XP as their scheduling is much improved.

[Kazuya]

And could some setup in the boot improved this feature ?

Actually I have this :

/noexecute=alwaysoff /fastdetect /usepmtimer /nodebug /timeres=9766

First my XP SP3 use this one :

/noexecute=optin /fastdetect /usepmtimer

Didn't see any differences but maybe an other ?

[Mark_A_W]

"Why dont you use EVR-CP as your renderer in MPC-HC? "


Confusion.


I don't know which version to pick.

I don't understand what settings to use.

I don't how I should use it with Reclock.

It would be very nice if you could make it a standalone renderer.


Currently, for critical playback on my projector, I use Zoomplayer with madVR and Reclock. It's very, very smooth, and looks very nice.

If EVR-Sync can eliminate the need for Reclock (or the resampling bit of reclock), and look as good as madVR, then I'm very interested.

If it is a standalone renderer, then I'll jump on it.

[Fadeout]

I posted the problem in the DXVA thread but it was unanswered and not related to DXVA:

I'm using SVN 1834 on W7 and latest ATI drivers, so with DXVA enabled, but the problem exists no matter if DXVA is on or off and is completely unrelated to CPU (since usage stays very low).

The problem is directly related to subtitles. When there's more than one line, or subtitles appearing more quickly than usual, then I get stutters in the video.

If using EVR Custom Pres I get some heavy stutters and the Statistics tab shows it's skipping blocks of frames. Instead with EVR Synch the stuttering is less noticeable, statistics show no frames are being dropped, but the details show a HUGE number of constant synch glitches.

As soon I disable subtitles, the problems goes away. The same no matter if I use DXVA or other software decoders, it's entirely related to subs and I see small or high spikes in the graph every time a sub is being shown. I also tried to change buffering of subs but nothing actually changes.

[namaiki]

I posted the problem in the DXVA thread but it was unanswered and not related to DXVA:

I'm using SVN 1834 on W7 and latest ATI drivers, so with DXVA enabled, but the problem exists no matter if DXVA is on or off and is completely unrelated to CPU (since usage stays very low).

The problem is directly related to subtitles. When there's more than one line, or subtitles appearing more quickly than usual, then I get stutters in the video.

If using EVR Custom Pres I get some heavy stutters and the Statistics tab shows it's skipping blocks of frames. Instead with EVR Synch the stuttering is less noticeable, statistics show no frames are being dropped, but the details show a HUGE number of constant synch glitches.

As soon I disable subtitles, the problems goes away. The same no matter if I use DXVA or other software decoders, it's entirely related to subs and I see small or high spikes in the graph every time a sub is being shown. I also tried to change buffering of subs but nothing actually changes.

What's the GPU? Sounds like it's too slow for your settings. Try lower the subtitle texture resolution or disable animation.

[Fadeout]

The GPU can do easily even 5.1 at 1080p. I have an ATI 4850, I guess it should be good enough. This happened with a lower resolution video, and even VLC can play it with subs and no stutters. Same for Windows Media Player, it seems to work without any stuttering.

EDIT: And now the problem vanished after it was there for various days. All the settings are the same, no idea what's up.

[namaiki]

The GPU can do easily even 5.1 at 1080p
.....
That has nothing to do with the rest.

VLC can play it with subs and no stutters. Same for Windows Media Player
.....
Different subtitle renderer.

If you want to more or less guarantee no stuttering with subtitles, you can use DirectVobSub, but there will be no DXVA option with that.

[lych_necross]

@Mark_A_W
What about MPC-HC with MadVR and Reclock? Is it better than ZP w/MadVR and reclock?
EDIT: (Better as in perceived quality)

[Mark_A_W]

@Mark_A_W
What about MPC-HC with MadVR and Reclock? Is it better than ZP w/MadVR and reclock?
EDIT: (Better as in perceived quality)



Well, with the same filters, quality is going to be the same.


And...umm...I know this is blasphemy here...forgive me...but ZP is a more mature player than MPC. The filter control is much more powerful, and it has a built in front end (I use both), and the GUI is much nicer.

I do use MPC-HC, but usually for watching recorded TV shows on the PC, not in the HT on the projector. I actually use MPC-HC 10x more than ZP, just a different purpose.

Hence my request for a standalone EVR-CP renderer filter.

[lych_necross]

And...umm...I know this is blasphemy here...forgive me...but ZP is a more mature player than MPC.
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/02/06/body_snatchers_080128110655013_wideweb__300x210.jpg
:D :p
ZP also has a more stable development team and crashes less. I will have to look into it as MPC still has that annoying random crash while seeking.

[tetsuo55]

And...umm...I know this is blasphemy here...forgive me...but ZP is a more mature player than MPC. Your comparing expencive payware with an open source hobby project? (but yes ZP is a nice player)

The filter control is much more powerful, Can you explain in detail what, why and how it is more powerfull?

and it has a built in front end (I use both), and the GUI is much nicer.We dont believe a frontend or gui should slow down how fast the player opens and starts to play the video.
For eyecandy lovers we recommend XBMC(for windows) or Mediaportal, they're dshow players are based on mpc-hc. And we are trying to work closely with those devs to get all 3 players more in line as far as the dshow part is concerned.
ZP also has a more stable development team and crashes less. I will have to look into it as MPC still has that annoying random crash while seeking.We don't have any devs right now, some people are trying to create some free time over the weekend, but the economic crisis isnt helping

[Kazuya]

For eyecandy lovers we recommend XBMC(for windows) or Mediaportal, they're dshow players are based on mpc-hc. And we are trying to work closely with those devs to get all 3 players more in line as far as the dshow part is concerned.


Hi Tetsuo ! I made a setup for XBMC + MPC-HC, ffdshow and reclock fully tuned by myself for 1080P or 720P display.
It's here :

http://passion-xbmc.org/downloads/?sa=view;down=98

Sorry, french version only for the moment (but english with a little change).
And support page :

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1196&t=29937725

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5240/clip21resize.png

[Mark_A_W]

Your comparing expencive payware with an open source hobby project? (but yes ZP is a nice player)

Can you explain in detail what, why and how it is more powerfull?

We dont believe a frontend or gui should slow down how fast the player opens and starts to play the video.
For eyecandy lovers we recommend XBMC(for windows) or Mediaportal, they're dshow players are based on mpc-hc. And we are trying to work closely with those devs to get all 3 players more in line as far as the dshow part is concerned.
We don't have any devs right now, some people are trying to create some free time over the weekend, but the economic crisis isnt helping


I use XBMC on my TV HTPC. Hacked two xbox remotes receivers and use them on both my HTPCs.

Mediaportal...well...I tried, but it drove me barmy.


I'm not really comparing ZP with MPC-HC - like I said I use them both. The simple front end of ZP is good enough to drive with a remote when I use my main PC to drive my HT, without going to the effort of running a full front end (I'm typing this on the same PC now).


As for Filter control, well ZP is more powerful. It's also much harder to use.

I have a convoluted filter path to do Room Correction using Convolver Wrapper.

A typical Audio filter path is: MPC-HC Matroska Splitter-> madFlac->ffdshow audio->Convolver wrapper-> Reclock.

What ZP allows me to do is pic different, explicit filter paths for different file types or different codecs (by filter sub type). It's complex yet quite simple - in the end you just list them in order for that audio type and it does it.

MPC, with it's slightly improved merit based control, just can't give me the flexibility.

(On the other hand, if I want to turn off convolver in ZP I have to change about 5 different audio decoder filter paths to do so...).

And yes, ZP cost money. I bought it bit by bit over the last 10 years. But it's not commercial in quite the same way as TMT or Powerdvd.

MPC is better for just installing and using (but I do wish a good explanation of the EVR-CP renderer was available...I'm lost).


They are complementary, not competitors.

Mark

[namaiki]

(but I do wish a good explanation of the EVR-CP renderer was available...I'm lost)


This is just about as good as it gets: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1281093#post1281093

Though you've probably seen it already.

[dansrfe]

EVR-CP has a higher jitter (10-11ms) than Haali Renderer does (3-4ms). madVR gives me 0ms jitter but I seriously think that's a lie considering that it "jitters" with obviousness to my eyes every 2 seconds or so. Also Anamorphic DVD Menu hotspot buttons are still not properly aligned in EVR-CP therefore that becomes another big reason not to use it. If those 2 issues are fixed then I'll set EVR-CP as my renderer permanently.

[madshi]

madVR gives me 0ms jitter
Where do you see that?

but I seriously think that's a lie considering that it "jitters" with obviousness to my eyes every 2 seconds or so.
That shouldn't be the case if your GPU is fast enough and your display refresh rate matches the movie frame rate. If you want to have help getting madVR to work properly, you may want to describe your problems in the madVR thread in more detail.

[dansrfe]

The jitter is what MPC-HC tells me in the stats and as far as GPU goes I have a ATi Radeon Mobility HD 4570 w/ 1GB GDDR3. On top of that I've never seen a 24fps refresh rate or a multiple of that widely available in a laptop or for that matter, even most desktop screens. Most people have a 60Hz monitor. The main problem I'm having with madVR is a slight "judder" every 2 seconds or so, which interrupts smooth motion. I'm using CoreAVC for decoding and there are absolutely no other filters interfering with the decoding process for the AVC stream. Haali Renderer on the other hand produces smooth motion 99.9% of the time on all MPEG-4/AVC material that I play. I like your renderer very much in terms of the actual render quality, however jittery motion causes viewing discomfort. There might be a substantial chance that I'm doing something wrong though :(

[Mark_A_W]

You can't have smooth motion for films at 60hz. So any comments about real smoothness are nonsense. What you may see is mistakes in the 3:2 cadence (vomit).

Most people who care about video don't watch film at 60hz. My analog projector is true multisync, and my plasma does 24p (displayed at 48hz).

[lych_necross]

You can't have smooth motion for films at 60hz. So any comments about real smoothness are nonsense. What you may see is mistakes in the 3:2 cadence (vomit).

Most people who care about video don't watch film at 60hz. My analog projector is true multisync, and my plasma does 24p (displayed at 48hz).
You can too watch movies smoothly at 60hz... if their fps is 29.97i.

[Mark_A_W]

You can too watch movies smoothly at 60hz... if their fps is 29.97i.

Not if they were shot on film.

29.97 is what you get with 3:2 pulldown.

[madshi]

The jitter is what MPC-HC tells me in the stats
Hmmmm... I don't see such a stat for madVR in my MPC-HC. Did I miss it somehow? How/where did you find those stats?

I've never seen a 24fps refresh rate or a multiple of that widely available in a laptop or for that matter, even most desktop screens. Most people have a 60Hz monitor. The main problem I'm having with madVR is a slight "judder" every 2 seconds or so, which interrupts smooth motion.
That shouldn't happen. Maybe it will be fixed with the next madVR version, or maybe not. Are you using Reclock? If so, turn VSync correction in Reclock off, when using madVR.

You can't have smooth motion for films at 60hz. So any comments about real smoothness are nonsense. What you may see is mistakes in the 3:2 cadence (vomit).
Many people are used to the 3:2 motion judder. It's not really smooth motion, but it's "ok". I'm quite sure that what dansrfe is seeing is much worse than the 3:2 motion judder.

[dansrfe]

I'm not using VSync or Reclock at all. The jitter stats the MPC-HC shows can be revealed with (Ctrl+4). All of the files I play back are 23.976 progressive or 24 fps progressive. There's absolutely no way I send a interlaced stream to any renderer. The audio renderer I'm using is the DirectShow one for my sound card under the output options in MPC-HC. The judder is not like a start/stop sort of problem but more of a "slow motion" for 0.5 seconds every 3-4 seconds. I guess it's something that wouldn't be noticeable to the average user but I definitely see a difference vs Haali's renderer at default settings. If it makes any difference I send a RGB32 stream to Haali and a yv12 stream to madVR through the different CoreAVC output options since Haali's renderer doesn't really do a good job in terms of colorspace presentation and level conversions.

[madshi]

The jitter stats the MPC-HC shows can be revealed with (Ctrl+4).
Interesting. Didn't know that one. Don't know where MPC HC gets the jitter information from.

All of the files I play back are 23.976 progressive or 24 fps progressive. There's absolutely no way I send a interlaced stream to any renderer. The audio renderer I'm using is the DirectShow one for my sound card under the output options in MPC-HC. The judder is not like a start/stop sort of problem but more of a "slow motion" for 0.5 seconds every 3-4 seconds. I guess it's something that wouldn't be noticeable to the average user but I definitely see a difference vs Haali's renderer at default settings.
If this problem still occurs with the next (not released yet) version of madVR, then it would help if you could create a log. The next madVR version will ship with a debug version which will create logs, so I can analyze such judder / slow motion problems...

[tetsuo55]

It almost looks like the dshow graph provides this information, but we wont be sure untill someone looks in the code.

[dansrfe]

I will be waiting for it :)

[madshi]

It almost looks like the dshow graph provides this information
That would make sense, I think.

[tetsuo55]

We use this interface to get it
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd376915(VS.85).aspx

[namaiki]

If it makes any difference I send a RGB32 stream to Haali and a yv12 stream to madVR through the different CoreAVC output options since Haali's renderer doesn't really do a good job in terms of colorspace presentation and level conversions.
By the way, you should have a look at ffdshow video's RGB32 + dither output, if you're like most users who have to convert from TV levels to PC levels for your monitor.

[dansrfe]

By the way, you should have a look at ffdshow video's RGB32 + dither output, if you're like most users who have to convert from TV levels to PC levels for your monitor.

I use ffdshow's HQRGB32 output as well but only for material other than H.264/AVC. All H.264/AVC material is strictly set for decoding with CoreAVC and no other filter interferes with it.

[namaiki]

I use ffdshow's HQRGB32 output as well but only for material other than H.264/AVC. All H.264/AVC material is strictly set for decoding with CoreAVC and no other filter interferes with it.

What I mean is I wouldn't use CoreAVC for level conversions, nor for conversion to RGB32. CoreAVC-> YV12 is fine as long as there are not any level conversions (possible with CoreAVC).

I'm still doing testing of this though..

Refer to: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1371829#post1371829 which marks ffdshow video RGB32+Dithering as king IMO for all video renderers that aren't MadVR.


By the way, I actually do use EVR-CP. Just with FFDshow Video feeding it RGB32+Dithered output.

[madshi]

We use this interface to get it
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd376915(VS.85).aspx
Thanks!

[dansrfe]

Any update madshi?

[namaiki]

dansrfe, what are the rendering times, and the frame rate of video?

[mikeggsm]

What are the other reasons for you to not use EVR-CP?
The EVR Custom Presenter doesn't take into account the display aspect ratio of the file when taking screenshots (File->Save Image). If the ratio of horizontal pixels by vertical pixels of the video is different from the display aspect ratio of the file, then screenshots look distorted.

This is a deal breaker for me so I use EVR instead.

[namaiki]

mikeggsm, if you have a decent Radeon or GeForce graphics card, please use Overlay Mixer. The scaling is so much better.

[mikeggsm]

I have tried all renderers and EVR is the only one which works for everything, I spent some time and headaches on this.

In any case overlay mixer can't take screenshots, as indicated by the * next to it. Deal breaker for me.

[namaiki]

Video quality matters more for me. Maybe you could try use VMR7(don't know which one) if it inherits the quality scaler of Overlay.

[neoufo51]

For the past 2 weeks, the latest builds of MPC-HC have been skipping in terms of playback whenever I move the progress bar and switching to EVR from EVR-CP fixed the problem entirely.

[namaiki]

nVidia card and latest drivers and avi?

[XhmikosR]

The Nvidia drivers issue is not an .avi specific issue. It happens with every video with MPC-HC + EVR CP.

[namaiki]

My bad. I've never experienced it, probably because I'm on Forceware 186.84.


..I just happened to hear from a couple of people that it only occurred when they were playing avi files. Doesn't make sense, but then again, no one seems to know the cause.

[XhmikosR]

Well, the Nvidia people should know the cause; they introduced it. But I guess they never listen to bug reports.

[neoufo51]

The Nvidia drivers issue is not an .avi specific issue. It happens with every video with MPC-HC + EVR CP.
I can confirm this.

[Mark_A_W]

I've been playing with EVR-CP and EVR-Sync on my dual monitor system.

When playing on the secondary monitor, EVR-CP corrected detects the refresh rate as 95.904hz.

But EVR-Sync incorrectly detects the primary monitor refresh rate instead.

[TinTime]

From our standpoint, there is only one reason not to use EVR-CP and that is if you want to use h264 DXVA on XP.

Having just moved from XP to Windows 7 I've found a similar reason to this. I've got an nvidia 8600GT which offers partial DXVA for VC-1 with WMVideo Decoder DMO, but (it seems) only with VMR-7 / 9.