TsMuxer 1.8.30 Still wont work with Panasonic

[UltimatePain]

Hi Dean,

why do you think so?

The only thing that could cause a problem can be.

- truncate index.bdmv to 0x78 ( I will truncate file because from 0x78 to the end of the file placed BDMV extended data with AVCHD descriptor. Thus better to delete this descriptor from file).


The rest should make no harm at all.
It was definetly wrong to have soe of the files with 0100 and some others with 0200 - this could not meet the standard.

and

- putting to offset 0xf in index.bdmv value 0x00 (remove link to BDMV extended data).

should not cause any harm as youself have posted out that this is something that belongs to AVCHD.
So it's just the one point that could cause problems.

Until nobody knows the standard - we just have to try out ;-)

So I think the major players outside should be:
Sony PS3
Sony xxx
Panasonic xxx
Samsung xxx

If these player make no problems we could most likely imagine that we are meeting the standard somehow ;-)

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[laserfan]

Well let's all try out the new version and see where it breaks:

http://www.smlabs.net/tsMuxer/tsMuxeR_1.8.35(b).zip

[UltimatePain]

Test on Panasonic BD-35:

BluRay creation -> works fine in the Panasonic with Time displayed
AVCHD-Creation -> Crashed the Player.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[deank]

More about the Extension Data, version ID and my tests:

* Few tests proved that there is no difference in playback (PS3/Nero Showtime/TMT) when versionID is set to 0100 or 0200 in all files (bdmv/clpi/mpls).

* If extension data start address (offset 0x0c-0x0f) is zeroed PS3 will not recognize DVD/USB/SD card as AVCHD and will not initiate playback. It is possible that if data is written to a BluRay Disc (BD25) PS3 will play it. I have no means to test. Nero Showtime recognizes the content as BluRay if long names are used (clpi/bdmv/mpls). TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

* If extension data start address points to the extension data, but first four bytes (extension data lenght) is set to zero and index.bdmv ends with these four zeroes

1) Playstation3 will recognize the content as AVCHD only if written to DVD.
2) Playstation3 will not recognize the content and will not initiate playback if data is written to USB/SD card.
3) Nero Showtime recognizes the content as BluRay if long names are used (clpi/bdmv/mpls). TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

* If extension data start address points to the extension data and the extension data is present, Playstation3 will recognize the content as AVCHD and will initiate playback from all media (DVD/USB/SD card). 3) Nero Showtime recognizes the content as AVCHD. TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

I guess that this may help BD-Rebuilder to generate FullDisc backups that will play on PS3 when written to DVD5/9 (BD-5/BD-9).

Dean

[shon3i]

PowerDVD 8 recognize as BluRay, PowerDVD as AVCHD?? problably beacuse i write on BD9.

[G_M_C]

Test on Panasonic BD-35:

BluRay creation -> works fine in the Panasonic with Time displayed
AVCHD-Creation -> Crashed the Player.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

Hmm, strange. Just burned .35's output to a DVD-RW, and my BD30 says UNSUPPORT. The AVCHD played, but it took a veeeery long while before the pana finally started playing. Trying a mux with .33's output now.

EDIT: The same DVD-RW written with .33's output worked as perfectly, ffworwarding/reverse ok chapter skipping too. I'll stick with .33 for now.

[SLOVEHEART]

just wondering if anyone has any info about the 'new' panasonic BD-60 or BD-80 players, I am brand new here, my first post in Doom - I am a regular in dvdfab section of cdfreaks, Just starting into the world of bluray, so I have been reading your threads on bd rebuilder and others, Hello ALL:)

[idbirch2]

.35 is an extremely dodgy build and should not be used until the kinks are ironed out. As far as I can tell, it was the first release to include seperate AVCHD and BluRay output modes and as I posted here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1264588#post1264588), completely screws up when outputting split AVCHD because the filenames are not 8.3 compliant (and you can't rename them because they're referenced by the CLPI files!)

I emailed Roman about it a couple of days ago and he assured me that a new version is coming soon and also warned me to be very careful with the output from .35.

[G_M_C]

.35 is an extremely dodgy build and should not be used until the kinks are ironed out. As far as I can tell, it was the first release to include seperate AVCHD and BluRay output modes and as I posted here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1264588#post1264588), completely screws up when outputting split AVCHD because the filenames are not 8.3 compliant (and you can't rename them because they're referenced by the CLPI files!)

I emailed Roman about it a couple of days ago and he assured me that a new version is coming soon and also warned me to be very careful with the output from .35.

I really do hope that he makes the 8.3 naming sceme OPTIONAL. Since not all players require 8.3 filenames, and only developing this for a PS3 (wich is actually a computer) is a moot option imho.

[idbirch2]

No, you've misunderstood. TSMuxer has never output 8.3 filenames, that must be done manually or with a script/seperate app. The problem with .35 split output is that is has deviated from the standard filenames for M2TS files i.e 00000.m2ts, 00001.m2ts etc. Because the actual filename is now ridiculously long, those who need to rename to 8.3 no longer have the option to do so. Fixing this error (which has only apeared in .35) has no effect whatoever on all the other fixes incorporated so far so you can relax.

PS3 (wich is actually a computer)LOL.

[G_M_C]

No, you've misunderstood. TSMuxer has never output 8.3 filenames, that must be done manually or with a script/seperate app. The problem with .35 split output is that is has deviated from the standard filenames for M2TS files i.e 00000.m2ts, 00001.m2ts etc. Because the actual filename is now ridiculously long, those who need to rename to 8.3 no longer have the option to do so. Fixing this error (which has only apeared in .35) has no effect whatoever on all the other fixes incorporated so far so you can relax.

LOL.

The reason i wrote my comment on the PS3 is that i somehow find it a bit stupid, that we have to observe carefull "rules" for a thing that is actually a computer. If it was programmable or usable like the computer it, in fact, is; It would play MKV's / M2TS' straight from the disk., and this whole filename buisines wouldnt even matter. See my comment as sarcasm towards the PS3, cause Sony is clearly in the way of the PS3's maturing into a good machine.

PS: The comment was also given in by the fact that i "don't like Sony" (more sarcasm). I actually will go out of my way to prevent any appliance from the Sony brand in my house.

[idbirch2]

Thanks G_M_C for your shattering insight there on the Playstation 3 and Sony brand but there's really no need to try and justify a completely pointless comment by making another.

[G_M_C]

Thanks G_M_C for your shattering insight there on the Playstation 3 and Sony brand but there's really no need to try and justify a completely pointless comment by making another.

Well actually it is my opinion, but it is based on hard fact; If Sony would be more open to Open Source community there would have been MKV support. And when you have MKV support, you dont need to make BD9's would you ? You can simply transmux the original BD to MKV for backup, in stead of goint through the whole process of reencoding/muxing whatever, a simple (set of) DVD9's with an MKV on it would suffice.

In my opinion, the closed mindset of Sony prevents the PS3 beeing more flexible. But hey, it is a GAMEconsole, not an Home Theatre addition. So it can also be that we must not expect it to become one.

[idbirch2]

Seems to me that Sony aren't the only ones with a closed mindset, jeez. Remuxing to MKV is no eaiser or quicker than remuxing to .ts/.m2ts which the PS will play just fine.

If I want to to play a full BD on the PS, I can do it with one program in one mux. Having the option to mux to MKV, while nice, wouldn't make the process any easier or quicker, it's already incredibly easy.

[rotty]

Hi Ultimate pain

Have uploaded prog for you, you will need to have VB6 run time files on your PC to run it.

Cheers

[turbojet]

More about the Extension Data, version ID and my tests:

* Few tests proved that there is no difference in playback (PS3/Nero Showtime/TMT) when versionID is set to 0100 or 0200 in all files (bdmv/clpi/mpls).

* If extension data start address (offset 0x0c-0x0f) is zeroed PS3 will not recognize DVD/USB/SD card as AVCHD and will not initiate playback. It is possible that if data is written to a BluRay Disc (BD25) PS3 will play it. I have no means to test. Nero Showtime recognizes the content as BluRay if long names are used (clpi/bdmv/mpls). TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

* If extension data start address points to the extension data, but first four bytes (extension data lenght) is set to zero and index.bdmv ends with these four zeroes

1) Playstation3 will recognize the content as AVCHD only if written to DVD.
2) Playstation3 will not recognize the content and will not initiate playback if data is written to USB/SD card.
3) Nero Showtime recognizes the content as BluRay if long names are used (clpi/bdmv/mpls). TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

* If extension data start address points to the extension data and the extension data is present, Playstation3 will recognize the content as AVCHD and will initiate playback from all media (DVD/USB/SD card). 3) Nero Showtime recognizes the content as AVCHD. TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

I guess that this may help BD-Rebuilder to generate FullDisc backups that will play on PS3 when written to DVD5/9 (BD-5/BD-9).

Dean

I can test this if only I really understood what I need to do. Could this be done with a little tool or does it vary between every full backup?

[deank]

It can be done with a tool but here is what has to be done. You need HEX editor.

(1) is the extension data start address (offset 0x0c-0x0f)
(2) is where extension data starts
(3) is on the 4th line - offset 0x4e - 0x51 (in this image: 00 00 01 FA)

If the data in (1) is zero (00 00 00 00) then you have to set it to the value in (3)+0x52. In this example: 0x1fa+0x52 = 00 00 02 4C

If the file is shorter than the calculated value (0x24c) you need to add zeroes to fill it to get bigger in size (0x1fa+0x52+0x04).

At offset 0x24c in this example we have 00 00 03 24. It has to be zeroed to 00 00 00 00. The last zero HAS TO BE the last byte in the file.

http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/exdx.jpg

[turbojet]

Thanks, will give it a shot within a few days.

In a BD-RB full backup index.bdmv I noticed that (1) is zeroed and found (3) which is 00 00 00 86 but I have no idea how to calculate hex.

I uploaded the index.bdmv (http://www.sendspace.com/file/cpjrr0) though if someone is interested in taking a look at it.

[Ghitulescu]

:helpful:
I did over the past weeks a sort of a tests.

So I downloaded for this special purpose a copy of a ripped BD off the net and burned it onto a DVD. Then I took this DVD and test every BD-Player I found along.

Here are the results:

Not a single Panasonic and their clones (or Uniphier based players) were able to play the disc. The Pannies recognised the DVD as an AVCHD one but refused to cooperate.

On the other hand, all Pioneers, all Sonies, all Samsungs, all LGs could do this easily.

Now the list:
:mad:
Panasonic - 30, 50, 35, 55
Onkyo - 606 (Funai made upon Panasonic basis)
Yamaha - the only model (Panasonic basis)
Denon - 1800, 2500, 3800 (all Funai made on Panasonic basis)
Sharp - 20 and 21
Loewe - (it's a Sharp 20)

:)
Pioneer - 70, 71, 51, lx08, 91
Sony - 300, 500, 350, 550
Samsung - all models (about 5 or 6)
LG - all models (about 3)
JVC - the only model (that with loudspeakers)

---===---
I don't know anything about Marantz (they were not connected and the salesmen were not there during my visit).

All the players are EU models, those currently sold in Germany (Saturn, Mediamarkt, Conrad).

About the DVD: it's the "aich qiu vee" benchmark, that was simply decrypted (not demuxed/remuxed or any other manipulation - therefore STANDARD). It fits perfectly a DVD (few bytes less than the max. 4.7GB).

---===---

Conclusions:
The Panny "inability" to play such discs might have 2 causes:
-either the Uniphier chip is limited therefore the Pannies and any other Uniphier-based player would not play normal AVCHD discs EVER.
-or Matsushita is so scared by pirates (or threatened by RIAA) that its firmware would not permit such things, again NEVER.

I do not own a BD-RW unit so I cannot check BD compatibility, but I assume that the things are better (unless they alter the firmware on purpose).

Have a nice day,
and do not change the program for suiting Panasonic and sacrificing its BD compatibility - better focus on BD standard and create a patcher or so for Panasonic, separately.

Ghitulescu

[Ghitulescu]

:)
Pioneer - 70, 71, 51, lx08, 91
Sony - 300, 500, 350, 550
Samsung - all models (about 5 or 6)
LG - all models (about 3)
JVC - the only model (that with loudspeakers)


Forgot here the 2 models from Philips which are Samsungs in disguise.

[Ghitulescu]

About the DVD: it's the "aich qiu vee" benchmark, that was simply decrypted (not demuxed/remuxed or any other manipulation - therefore STANDARD). It fits perfectly a DVD (few bytes less than the max. 4.7GB).

Also I used 2 discs, one having and empty CERTIFICATE folder and one not having it. I knew there might be a problem with this folder.

No changes in the list - the players either played both discs or none, no mixted results.

[deank]

In a BD-RB full backup index.bdmv I noticed that (1) is zeroed and found (3) which is 00 00 00 86 but I have no idea how to calculate hex.

You could've opened windows calculator (scientific mode), select (o) HEX and do the math: 86+52=D8

Here is the file with changed offset $0f from 00 to $d8:

http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/index-orig.bdmv

@Ghitulescu: You can edit your first post. No need to post one after another :)

[turbojet]

Thanks deank will try soon. Do I have to do anything else to this file like change header to 00100 and/or zero out to (2) in your diagram?

Ghiteulescu: Is that VC-1 or H.264 on the BD5 you burned?

If it's VC-1 that's what this thread is mainly about

If it's H.264 you'll probably need to disable 24p playback in settings.

You do have some unique players that haven't been identified as (in)compatible on the list (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144674) Your test could be very helpful if you used H.264 BD5.

[Ghitulescu]

Thanks deank will try soon.

Ghiteulescu: Is that VC-1 or H.264 on the BD5 you burned?

If it's VC-1 that's what this thread is mainly about

If it's H.264 you'll probably need to disable 24p playback in settings.

You do have some unique players that haven't been identified as (not) compatible on the list (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144674) Your test could be very helpful if you used H.264 BD5.

1. It's VC-1, at least the part I've seen.

2. I do not own any of them. I did the test in order to buy one :)

3. I would gladly repeat the test but I need a BD5 with H.264. And it has to be an industrial one (100% compliant) not a self-made one, otherwise the results are compromised.

[Ghitulescu]

You do have some unique players that haven't been identified as (in)compatible on the list (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144674) Your test could be very helpful if you used H.264 BD5.

It might be useful to say that this thread lists BD-Players that are compatible to the output of BD-rebuilder on BD5. Holywood uses Sonic Scenarist, a software that guarantees 100% compliance because they have acces to the original specifications (not available to the author of BD-RB unless he sold his house to pay them and also agreed NOT to disclose these to anyone).:p

[turbojet]

Oh ok, I don't think a retail H.264 BD5/9 exists, but I didn't think a VC-1 BD5/9 existed either.

That compatibility list is based upon BD5/9 encoding with x264 (using settings that have been figured out to be as compliant as it can be).

If you ever feel up to to doing that test you can run aich qiu vee through BD-RB as movie only or you could use a trailer and run it through RipBot264 using bluray output and bluray/standalone profile, or I could encode a trailer that is compliant for you.

[turbojet]

It might be useful to say that this thread lists BD-Players that are compatible to the output of BD-rebuilder on BD5. Holywood uses Sonic Scenarist, a software that guarantees 100% compliance because they have acces to the original specifications (not available to the author of BD-RB unless he sold his house to pay them and also agreed NOT to disclose these to anyone).:p

Could be but all but 2 known players working with all free tools isn't half bad.

I'd be interested in seeing if those 2 Sharp players can even play Scenarist output on a red laser, I'd lean towards it can't.

[Ghitulescu]

If it's H.264 you'll probably need to disable 24p playback in settings.

You do have some unique players that haven't been identified as (in)compatible on the list (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144674) Your test could be very helpful if you used H.264 BD5.

Well, I've read almost everything mentioned here about BD-players, so it must be worth mentioning that the BD5 I've burned has the following characteristics:

-it was a 16x verbatim made by Taiyo Yuden burned at 4x with PX716 (almost 0 errors ;-)
-it's a VC-1
-has menus (I'm a beginner, I cannot tell if there are DVD-like or BD-Java - but since it's a benchmark BD it must be java-driven)
-I've also tested DVD+R, DVD-R and their rewritables - the same result
-it was NOT a movie-only BD5 (it seems that some players are more compliant to movie-only BD5s)

and the models were exclusively European and region/zone locked (A/2). Maybe the US models are more strict or more relaxed ...

[rotty]

I am certain that ALL AVCHD discs are H264 encoded. This is the AVCHD standard. The Panasonics will play AVCHD bd5/9 encoded H264. If you use RipBot or BD Rebuilder, the blu ray files are re encoded to H264 regardless of the original encoding.

[turbojet]

I am certain that ALL AVCHD discs are H264 encoded. This is the AVCHD standard. The Panasonics will play AVCHD bd5/9 encoded H264. If you use RipBot or BD Rebuilder, the blu ray files are re encoded to H264 regardless of the original encoding.

Indeed AVCHD only supports H.264 video.

I'm not sure what you think AVCHD is but RipBot264 and BD-RB both use TSMuxer which doesn't support proper AVCHD output, yet. Even when it does I can't see it being of much use to these programs but we'll see.

If you are referring to "-either the Uniphier chip is limited therefore the Pannies and any other Uniphier-based player would not play normal AVCHD discs EVER.' I'm a bit confused on what he meant as well.

[Ghitulescu]

Oh ok, I don't think a retail H.264 BD5/9 exists, but I didn't think a VC-1 BD5/9 existed either.

That compatibility list is based upon BD5/9 encoding with x264 (using settings that have been figured out to be as compliant as it can be).

If you ever feel up to to doing that test you can run aich qiu vee through BD-RB as movie only or you could use a trailer and run it through RipBot264 using bluray output and bluray/standalone profile, or I could encode a trailer that is compliant for you.

That's exactly my point.

The HQV Benchmark is authored in Scenarist and it's therefore 100% compliant to standards. What other people do is to guess the specifications, like they did with DVD. A big :thanks: to them, but they will never obtain a 100% compliance except for one-movie-BD or any other simple BD5s.

The players are REQUIRED to play standard BDs so the goal would be to obtain self-made BD5s that are 100% compliant. And not to patch compliant BDs to suit Pannies, Sonies or other producer.

On the other hand I find it quite stupid to drop 24p in order to watch a movie if H.264 encoded. Come on! If I have a HDTV camera that can 24p (yes, there are such models) should I reencode the film, each film, to please the f**ing Panasonic? Please! I better buy Pioneer, or Sony or Samsung or or or ...

[rotty]

Yes, it was just that I saw mentioned earlier that someone was making or had made a VC-1 AVCHD disc. As far as im aware there's no such thing.
As for Ripbot, every AVCHD disc I have made works on the Panasonic BD35.
Have had NO luck with BD Rebuilder, none of the discs worked.

[turbojet]

Yes, it was just that I saw mentioned earlier that someone was making or had made a VC-1 AVCHD disc. As far as im aware there's no such thing.
As for Ripbot, every AVCHD disc I have made works on the Panasonic BD35.
Have had NO luck with BD Rebuilder, none of the discs worked.

What's your definition of AVCHD?
As I stated earlier TSMuxer doesn't output AVCHD. So I'd be interested to know what program you are using to mux AVCHD.
I really think you mean a movie only BD muxed by TSMuxer.

Ghitulescu: 100% compliance is the goal for tools produced on this forum I believe. DVD was able to accomplish this, it just took some time. A lot of players seem to be playing games when it comes to red versus blue laser. Panasonic's do seem to be the most pesky player that has had at least some success, which makes it a great candidate for a testing box.

[Ghitulescu]

If you are referring to "-either the Uniphier chip is limited therefore the Pannies and any other Uniphier-based player would not play normal AVCHD discs EVER.' I'm a bit confused on what he meant as well.

English is not my mother tongue ;-)

If the limitation to play VC-1 encoded BD5 is in the Uniphier then there is no hope, the players will never be able to play such discs, because it's a hardware limitation and no firmware can change this.

In case Uniphier is the problem and not the grammar, then Uniphier is the chip around which the BD-play is centered. The first generation of Uniphier was in 30, 50, the second one is in 35 and 55. 30, 50, 35 and 55 are the Panasonic models.

For me, as a humble BD-watcher, it plays no role whether VC-1 or H.264 are part of the AVCHD specifications or not, my test had a different purpose: to find out what players can do BD5, which is a BD25/BD50 "light". The very same way as MiniDVD, which was a CD-R containing DVD files and burned as a DVD-Video not as a CD.

I'm glad that the BD5 I've used contained VC-1 since it must be possible to watch H.264 on any player produced by a company that also markets HDTV-camcorders, right?! Like Pansonic, Sony, you know.... Unless they are really really stupid ...

[deank]

The HQV Benchmark is authored in Scenarist and it's therefore 100% compliant to standards.

HD HQV Benchmark original is a Bluray Disc, not DVD, so let's not generalize players' performance based on it if you burned it to a DVD disc.

What other people do is to guess the specifications, like they did with DVD. A big :thanks: to them, but they will never obtain a 100% compliance except for one-movie-BD or any other simple BD5s.

We shall see to it.

The players are REQUIRED to play standard BDs so the goal would be to obtain self-made BD5s that are 100% compliant.

It is impossible to achieve this, because BD standard is for BD discs not DVD (BD5/9) and hw manufacturers are not required to support the latter - in fact it seems they intentionally started to remove support for BD content written on DVD.

[rotty]

Sony and Panasonic hold copyright on the standard they call AVCHD. As far as I understand it, it is an MPEG4 H264 compression standard mostley used for camcorders. There are also audio standards within this as I undertand it.
I have no personal view on what the AVCHD standard is, I just accept that as is.
Is your undertanding different because i'm sure its not as clear cut as i've described it.

[nwg]

Yes, it was just that I saw mentioned earlier that someone was making or had made a VC-1 AVCHD disc. As far as im aware there's no such thing.
As for Ripbot, every AVCHD disc I have made works on the Panasonic BD35.
Have had NO luck with BD Rebuilder, none of the discs worked.

AVCHD can be AVC, Mpeg2 or VC-1. It does not have to have AVC video.

[deank]

http://www.avchd-info.org/

http://www.avchd-info.org/format/OverviewChart1.GIF (http://www.avchd-info.org/)

If it had support for anything else than AVC it wouldn't have been given the name AVCHD.

[rotty]

Ive just looked up the definition and paste it below:

AVCHD is a standard for the recording and playback of high definition video. Video is compressed in MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 format, and audio is recorded in Dolby Digital.[1] AVCHD and the AVCHD logo are trademarks of Panasonic corporation and Sony corporation.[2]

[turbojet]

Ghitulescu: In this thread there's already a fix for VC-1 muxed by TSMuxer on panasonic (maybe all uniphiler players) which may fix your test case for all those players except the sharp based ones. But with a menu a lot of players are unsupported but I think eventually it will be cracked.

rotty: Oh ok, I just got kind of confused when you were stating RipBot and AVCHD together.

deank: does that index.bdmv still need some thing done to it before test?

[Ghitulescu]

Yes, it was just that I saw mentioned earlier that someone was making or had made a VC-1 AVCHD disc. As far as im aware there's no such thing.
As for Ripbot, every AVCHD disc I have made works on the Panasonic BD35.
Have had NO luck with BD Rebuilder, none of the discs worked.

You mean here probably that's not a standard AVCHD.

I did not create an AVCHD with VC-1, I simply had a BDMV folder from an original BD, that was burned onto a regular DVDR in UDF2.50, in order to obtain a BD5. Nobody said anything about AVCHD.

And the Pannies and all other Uniphier-players failed this simple test, while Pioneer, Sony, Samsung, LG, JVC passed. And that happened also in UDF 2.60, which is BTW the format the AVCHD-DVDs from Panasonic burners are created (I thought this might be the problem, that I used UDF 2.50).

I didn't want to start a polemique here, wanted just to explain that the only solution to Panasonic is to patch 100% compliant files/headers. At least this was my conclusion.

Now you have all the details to my test (DVD, files, players, conditions, format) so you can derive your own conclusions. Or you can simply download yourselves the HQV benchmark and experiment. That's your choice, too.

[deank]

deank: does that index.bdmv still need some thing done to it before test?

No... It will either work this way or not at all :)

[rotty]

BD5 is wording used to describe AVCHD blu ray disc (disc=DVD disc).

What you did if I understand it is leave the encoding as it was and took a portion of the file and recorded it to a DVD disc. This is not called BD5 or BD9, as I stated above, BD5/9 implies AVCHD.

[turbojet]

deank: ok thanks

rotty: Oh even more confusing. BD5/9/25/50 and AVCHD are 2 different standards entirely but now I know you really meant BD5.

[Ghitulescu]

HD HQV Benchmark original is a Bluray Disc, not DVD, so let's not generalize players' performance based on it if you burned it to a DVD disc.



We shall see to it.



It is impossible to achieve this, because BD standard is for BD discs not DVD (BD5/9) and hw manufacturers are not required to support the latter - in fact it seems they intentionally started to remove support for BD content written on DVD.

I perfectly agree with you.

There is however a point I disagree. BD5 and BD9 are standardized as well, since they want to sell HDTV camcorders too. Actually the specifications for BD5 and BD9 were ready before those of "real" BD25/BD50.

And I know HQV was a BD, I've said that from the beginning. That was the goal!!!!! To see if the players can cope with other stuff than HDTV camcorder files or not. And of course with 100% compliant files on a purpotedly different medium.

I simply do not understand the logic of the first phrase. I thought people here are interested in having their home-made films on BDR and DVDR (way much cheaper). Since the SD cards are generally 4GB or 8GB (the cheaper ones), probably the DVDR will be the target medium, they can easily accomodate the size + some menus.

I do have hundreds of DVDs, I do consider DVD/DVDR/BD5/BD9 performance as well. It's actually my first creterium in picking up a BD-player.

In fact, the real difference is in the scaling performance, not in BD-HDMI one. In a blind test the normal citizen would not notice (unless told where to look) the differences between the Pio 91 and the Sharp 21, both connected to the same model of TV through identical HDMI-cables - and it's a 10 fold difference in price. I would pay more for fiability, not for an 0.0001% increase in quality.

[rotty]

Yes it sure is fella. Its very confusing. I think (this is only my understanding) that if you put a Blu Ray file (that would of course normally be on a Blu Ray disc) and then re encoded to AVCHD standard and put it on a DVD then they call that a BD5 or BD9. This disc is of course NOT a BD disc and the 5 or 9 tells you that its a DVD sort of posing as a Blu Ray disc (sort of)

[nwg]

If it had support for anything else than AVC it wouldn't have been given the name AVCHD.

Well my player recognises VC-1/Mpeg2 as AVCHD.

[Ghitulescu]

deank: ok thanks

rotty: Oh even more confusing. BD5/9/25/50 and AVCHD are 2 different standards entirely but now I know you really meant BD5.

There are actually 3 different concepts.
1. BD5 or BD9 - they are DVDR containing blu ray files and folders, exactly as a BD but having only 4.7GB (bzw. 8.5GB)
2. AVCHD - this is the format intended for camcorders, in order to put the home made movies to a cheaper medium (DVDR). At the time this standard was developed BD-R/E just hit the market and cost I think some 50€ a piece. AFAIK there were camcorders that shot in MPEG2 (some JVC) and other that used AVC (most others). Therefore AVCHD was not restricted to any of the 3 codecs used in his elder brother, the BD
3. BD - it's an extention to AVCHD (which was the starting point)

But you can read all these in wikipedia ;-)

[rotty]

LOL well im bailing out of this one, I can only say that the paste from the standard I did earlier and the full info that DEAN wrote says AVCHD is MPEG4(H264) transported using MPEG2 data stream but what do I know.
Well fellas im even more confused.

[Ghitulescu]

Yes it sure is fella. Its very confusing. I think (this is only my understanding) that if you put a Blu Ray file (that would of course normally be on a Blu Ray disc) and then re encoded to AVCHD standard and put it on a DVD then they call that a BD5 or BD9. This disc is of course NOT a BD disc and the 5 or 9 tells you that its a DVD sort of posing as a Blu Ray disc (sort of)

If I need to reencode I would not put this on a DVDR (cheap) but on a BDR (expensive). No encoding was meant. Blu rays files and folders that were put on a DVDR in UDF 2.50+ format. Period.
pass - fail.
The rest is philosophy.