FAQ: How to correct luminance levels [Archive] - Page 4

mark0077

13th March 2009, 17:39

But if the TV was configured properly then 16 would give pure black and 235 would give pure white. Clipping should then have no visible difference since lower/higher values should also be pure black/white.

Video sources are almost always encoded as 16-235.

Yeah if the TV is setup to 16-235 and ffdshow's output display setting is 16-235 then all will be fine. You just have to make sure your GFX card and Display both use the same. ie if your display is setup to input 16-235 and your drivers arn't (or don't have the option in the case of NVidia) then you will run into problems.

Beliyaal

13th March 2009, 17:45

Yes it will display correctly with clipping to 16-235. All this talk about BTB and WTW however only has meaning if the values aren't clipped. Some colors for example might only be representable with values outside 16-235. For example a color that is "redder" than red.

The idea is basically to represent colors outside the color space with values below 0.0 and above 1.0

mark0077

13th March 2009, 17:53

I am still lost as to why anyone would want to see values above or below whats intended to be seen........ anyways... With ffdshow settings, 100% of content I have used in my lifetime can be seen in its entirity, the only clip i have seen using BTB or WTW is the THX test screens that contain information below 16 and above 235 that basically advises that you should never ever see this btb or wtw content (and ffdshows INPUT setting can be set to full range or 0-255 if you actually do want to see it, then it won't be clipped off), its there for you to adjust your display / software settings so that you don't see it.... yeah I'm still not sure why anyone would need what you talk about....

I am not sure why any BTB or WTW content should ever be visible. thats the definition of it in my mind, content that was never intended to be seen, and 99% of the time contains no data except for calibration purposes (to guide you that you should never see it)

Beliyaal

13th March 2009, 18:00

mark0077

13th March 2009, 18:05

There probably isn't any content that uses it anyway, which is why I don't bother with it. My tv has a xvYCC switch, but I have not been able to get the information to it correctly. Maybe it needs a 10 bit signal. Windows 7 is supposed to have some support for this, so I guess I will look into it when I start using Windows 7 full time.

A link explaining why you would want colors outside the gamut. (http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/207gear/)

Thanks for the link, but (even though we probably won't need those deep colour settings for a while or in the next 5 years see any content using it) if any content comes with this large gamut it won't be using BTB or WTW to represent that extra detail, we won't be dealing with 0-255 anymore. The extended gamut will use 10bit color so we will be using inputs of 0-1024 for 10-bit and 0-4096 for 12-bit color. To me BTB and WTW have nothing to do with these extended gamuts.... I can see how this stuff can confuse....

Interesting link, I would love to see some 10-bit movies in a couple of years :D:D

Beliyaal

13th March 2009, 18:10

Thanks for the link, but (even though we probably won't need those deep colour settings for a while or in the next 5 years see any content using it) if any content comes with this large gamut it won't be using BTB or WTW to represent that extra detail, we won't be dealing with 0-255 anymore. The extended gamut will use 10bit color so we will be using inputs of 0-1024 for 10-bit and 0-4096 for 12-bit color. To me BTB and WTW have nothing to do with these extended gamuts.... I can see how this stuff can confuse....

Interesting link, I would love to see some 10-bit movies in a couple of years :D:D

Actually, it is exactly this way that x.v.Color works, representing the information in the BTB and WTW areas. This is to remain backwards compatible with old TVs (10 bit color won't magically use another color space):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC

mark0077

13th March 2009, 18:18

oh :D thanks, never knew that :D

I guess if someone needed to use camcorder movies that can record in xvYCC then ffdshow would need these new settings. I guess the existing ones arn't enough...

iron2000

16th March 2009, 01:44

Seems like the ffdshow RGB32 trick is not working on my PC.
Colors looks washed out even with it on, looked better with the 16-235 -> 0-255 shader though.

clsid

16th March 2009, 12:23

That means one of three things:
- ffdshow is not getting used
- your haven't forced RGB32 output
- you need to adjust the RGB conversion settings

Delerue

19th March 2009, 07:36

Hmmm... Interesting topic. I already know about the Nvidia full range driver option. It helps a lot, and I can't understand why it still came disabled (i.e. 16-235) by default. BTW, I still can't get the right luminance level in these two videos (tried with FFDShow decoder, MPC decoder and WMP 11 decoder):

http://download.nvidia.com/downloads/nZone/videos/PureVideo_1080p.wmv

http://us.download.nvidia.com/downloads/videos/GF8800Demoreel_High_8000.wmv

All the rest (including this other WMV by Nvidia (http://us.download.nvidia.com/downloads/nZone/videos/nzm_Cascades_tech.wmv)), as far as I remember, are correct. I already see this problem with other videos, and the only solution I found was to enable DXVA (blerg), although it doesn't seem to correct the two videos above. Any idea?

Thanks

P.S.: chros, Nvidia drivers after 180.42 seems to be broken. I tested a few ones with XP x64. The Nvidia Control Panel process doesn't close after you hit the 'x' (check the Task Manager), and it messes with some settings, including luminance level. You can try to apply 0-255 and open a video with the Nvidia Control Panel still opened; it'll work. I gave up, and back to 180.42.

madshi

20th March 2009, 20:40

The problem with ffdshow is that it clips to 16-235.
It does not. At least not the (some weeks old) build I have on my PC.

Beliyaal

20th March 2009, 21:10

It does not. At least not the (some weeks old) build I have on my PC.

Have you set input to 16-235 and output to 16-235 when this is the case?

LoRd_MuldeR

12th April 2009, 13:53

Method #1: Adjusting graphics driver settings

NVIDIA

Since version 177.84, the NVIDIA drivers have an option for configuring the luma range.

You can find the option here:
NVIDIA Control Panel -> Video & Television -> Adjust video color settings -> Select "With the NVIDIA settings" -> Advanced tab -> Set Dynamic Range to "Full (0-255)".

screenshot (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5002/sshot1pr2.jpg)

Unfortunately that settings is back at "With the video player settings" after I reboot the computer :rolleyes:

Is there any method to make the NVIDIA drivers remember that setting? Or do I really need to set this up every single time? :confused:

leeperry

12th April 2009, 13:56

a few more reboots maybe? I know my custom timings always vanish the first time I reboot, but afterwards they do stick :D

Delerue

12th April 2009, 15:50

Unfortunately that settings is back at "With the video player settings" after I reboot the computer :rolleyes:

Is there any method to make the NVIDIA drivers remember that setting? Or do I really need to set this up every single time? :confused:

Check my P.S. here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1263321#post1263321

I already tested with the last 185.68, and still the same problem (plus my USB mouse isn't working...) :rolleyes:

LoRd_MuldeR

12th April 2009, 19:50

Check my P.S. here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1263321#post1263321

I already tested with the last 185.68, and still the same problem (plus my USB mouse isn't working...) :rolleyes:

I see! So I'm not alone with the problem. Hopefully they'll fix it in a future driver version. I'm running 182.50 right now...

Mangix

12th April 2009, 21:02

182.47 remembers it. at least on my computer. beliyal's MPC builds have an option to set the levels(not pixel shader) and now i've pretty much stopped using that setting from the control panel.

LoRd_MuldeR

12th April 2009, 21:04

beliyal's MPC builds have an option to set the levels(not pixel shader) and now i've pretty much stopped using that setting from the control panel.

I need it for DVBViewer mainly ;)

Mangix

12th April 2009, 22:59

makes sense. only thing i can recommend is using driver sweeper and reinstalling the drivers.

i personally only use Xtreme-G (http://www.tweakforce.com) drivers :)

LoRd_MuldeR

13th April 2009, 01:54

I already tested with the last 185.68, and still the same problem (plus my USB mouse isn't working...) :rolleyes:

Same problem here. I wonder how a graphics driver can cause this :confused:

Anyway, it helps to unplug the mouse and plug it in again. But it sucks to do this after every reboot :rolleyes:

Delerue

13th April 2009, 03:02

Same problem here. I wonder how a graphics driver can cause this :confused:

Anyway, it helps to unplug the mouse and plug it in again. But it sucks to do this after every reboot :rolleyes:

Well, you know the 'Nvidia, the way it's meant to be bugged', don't you? :p

LoRd_MuldeR

13th April 2009, 03:28

Well, you know the 'Nvidia, the way it's meant to be bugged', don't you? :p

Thought that was ATI's motto :D

(The good news is that 185.68 seems to remember the "Dynamic Range" settings again)

chros

16th April 2009, 10:54

P.S.: chros, Nvidia drivers after 180.42 seems to be broken. I tested a few ones with XP x64. The Nvidia Control Panel process doesn't close after you hit the 'x' (check the Task Manager), and it messes with some settings, including luminance level. You can try to apply 0-255 and open a video with the Nvidia Control Panel still opened; it'll work. I gave up, and back to 180.42.
Hhmmm ... Indeed ! It's still running ! (nvcplui.exe) So maybe that's why it's working until reboot ...
So maybe we need a command line switc for it, and autorun on startup ...

I already tested with the last 185.68, and still the same problem
(The good news is that 185.68 seems to remember the "Dynamic Range" settings again)
So how could this be ???

I have reinstalled a computer at my friend: nvidia nforce4 ultra chipset + geforce 6600GT + v182.50 driver + an old analog CRT monitor : and it remembers this setting!!!

So maybe the connection between the card and the display is the problem ? What about yours? (See mine in my signature ...)

Thanks

Delerue

16th April 2009, 14:13

Hhmmm ... Indeed ! It's still running ! (nvcplui.exe) So maybe that's why it's working until reboot ...
So maybe we need a command line switc for it, and autorun on startup ...

Too much work for a little (or no...) gain with the new driver, don't you think?

I have reinstalled a computer at my friend: nvidia nforce4 ultra chipset + geforce 6600GT + v182.50 driver + an old analog CRT monitor : and it remembers this setting!!!

So maybe the connection between the card and the display is the problem ? What about yours? (See mine in my signature ...)

Don't think so. I use an 'old' Philips CRT 22', and doesn't matter what driver version after 180.42 I try; all of them have this same bug.

chros

18th April 2009, 09:06

Too much work for a little (or no...) gain with the new driver, don't you think?
What do you mean with this? (Sorry, I can't understand ...)

Thanks

Delerue

19th April 2009, 16:00

What do you mean with this? (Sorry, I can't understand ...)

Thanks

What I mean is that you're searching for command lines and other things to make the new driver work perfectly, but I think that these new versions aren't worth this pain; simply don't use them. Use the 180.42 version and be happy, or wait for a decent version.

Well, this is just my opinion. ;)

LoRd_MuldeR

19th April 2009, 23:35

So how could this be ???

I have reinstalled a computer at my friend: nvidia nforce4 ultra chipset + geforce 6600GT + v182.50 driver + an old analog CRT monitor : and it remembers this setting!!!

I have no idea. May even be my multi-monitor setup.

I can only say the v182.50, the first ForceWare I ever installed, doesn't remember the luminance levels. At least it has that option, ATI CCC didn't have such an option.
The 185.68 version does remember the settings, but it disables my USB mouse every reboot until I unplug and re-connect it. That's not really an improvement...

So maybe the connection between the card and the display is the problem ? What about yours? (See mine in my signature ...)

See my signature too ;)

Peuj

20th April 2009, 09:19

@LoRd_MuldeR,

Maybe you can try drivers from http://www.laptopvideo2go.com ?

chros

20th April 2009, 10:45

See my signature too ;)
"My specs" isn't available ... :)

Use the 180.42 version and be happy, or wait for a decent version.
Thanks, now I'm waiting for a newer version ... :)

LoRd_MuldeR

20th April 2009, 14:58

"My specs" isn't available ... :)

Obviously that ImageShack server went down. Re-uploaded to another server and updated my sig ;)

LoRd_MuldeR

4th May 2009, 23:24

Argh, ForceWare 185.81 finally fixed the USB mouse problem, but once again doesn't remember the "dynamic range" settings. That was already fixed in 185.68 :rolleyes:

Delerue

5th May 2009, 03:42

Argh, ForceWare 185.81 finally fixed the USB mouse problem, but once again doesn't remember the "dynamic range" settings. That was already fixed in 185.68 :rolleyes:

Hehehe. It's impossible to understand Nvidia's drivers. I gave up. 180.42 FTW. :)

chros

11th May 2009, 18:07

Hehehe. It's impossible to understand Nvidia's drivers. I gave up. 180.42 FTW. :)
Well ... :)
The latest whql v185.85 driver doesn't remember the "dynamic range" settings, too ... :)

LoRd_MuldeR

11th May 2009, 18:09

Well ... :)
The latest whql v185.85 driver doesn't remember the "dynamic range" settings, too ... :)

Indeed :rolleyes:

Inspector.Gadget

12th May 2009, 00:37

185.85 causes BSODs and lock-ups here on an 9650M GT... so much for "Hardware Quality"...

thewebchat

12th May 2009, 04:43

I've followed most of this thread and seen a good deal of discussion about PC vs TV luma levels, but what about BT709 vs. BT601? I tried switching the modes in Haali, but was hard-pressed to find a difference. It seems some colors are slightly different in one mode or the other, but is there any way to tell which mode is right for X random file (assuming the source media is unknown), i.e. is there something in particular to look for in a BT709 or a BT601 color video.

Pulstar

21st May 2009, 15:21

Something that puzzled me is why laptop LCD's (powered by GMA chipsets) display 'more correct' colours than desktop LCDs (Nvidia/ATI output)? Even if VMR9 is the renderer for both platforms? Does Intel which produces subpar graphic chipsets care enough to implement colour correction in their drivers?

LoRd_MuldeR

7th June 2009, 16:38

It seems the ForceWare v186.08 Beta drivers will finally remember the luminance range after reboot.

And so far it seems they don't brake anything important here. Even my USB mouse still works ;)

Delerue

7th June 2009, 20:36

It seems the ForceWare v186.08 Beta drivers will finally remember the luminance range after reboot.

And so far it seems they don't brake anything important here. Even my USB mouse still works ;)

Ok. I'll give it a try. Let's hope...

Delerue

11th June 2009, 03:53

Well, it doesn't work for me with XP x64. Although the setting remains 'Full (0-255)', videos don't have the correct luminance level. Nvidia is amazing...

LoRd_MuldeR

11th June 2009, 13:22

Well, it doesn't work for me with XP x64. Although the setting remains 'Full (0-255)', videos don't have the correct luminance level.

Definitely works for me! I'm on WinXP x64 too. Very strange :confused:

Nvidia is amazing...

Not as "amazing" as ATI. Compared to ATI'S CCC the Nvidia Control Panel is MUCH better, still far from being perfect though ;)

Delerue

11th June 2009, 15:56

Definitely works for me! I'm on WinXP x64 too. Very strange :confused:

Take a look:

180.42:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/Delerue/18042.jpg

186.08:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/Delerue/18608.jpg

You can try this video here: http://us.download.nvidia.com/downloads/nZone/videos/nzm_Cascades_tech.wmv

LoRd_MuldeR

11th June 2009, 18:03

There's no such problem here:

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7350/cascades.th.png (http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7350/cascades.png)

(Renderer used was VMR9. When I switch back from "full" to "limited", then I get wrong luminace levels again. So the option works as expected)

Delerue

11th June 2009, 18:46

There's no such problem here:

[...]

(Renderer used was VMR9. When I switch back from "full" to "limited", then I get wrong luminace levels again. So the option works as expected)

Ah! Thanks! I finally discover the problem. It seems that VMR7 Windowed (the only one that doesn't stutter here) doesn't like the Nvidia Dynamic Range driver option with these new versions. With VMR9 (both Windowed and Renderless) it works perfectly. Try it, please.

Another thing. If I try VMR 7 Windowed with Nvidia Control Panel opened, it applies the correct luminance level. But if I close it, it messes the colors again. You have to close MPC and open it to see this weird thing. :rolleyes:

LoRd_MuldeR

11th June 2009, 18:55

I can confirm that the "Dynamic range" setting obliviously doesn't apply to VMR7 in "windowed" mode, but the "renderless" version works just fine for me!

VMR9 works fine for me in both modes, "windowed" and "renderless".

The same applies to both versions of EVR. But with the None-"Custom Pres" version of EVR the black borders (not the video itself!) are too bright.

Delerue

11th June 2009, 18:59

I can confirm that the "Dynamic range" setting obliviously doesn't apply to VMR7 in "windowed" mode, but the "renderless" version works just fine for me!

Hehehe. Why 'obliviously'? It works with 180.42 and older driver versions. :)

Anyway, thanks for your help.

But with the None-"Custom Pres" version of EVR the black borders (not the video itself!) are too bright.

Hahaha! I can confirm. Really odd. :D

LoRd_MuldeR

11th June 2009, 19:04

Hehehe. Why 'obliviously'? It works with 180.42 and older driver versions. :)

"Obviously" because on my system I can clearly reproduce that "Dynamic range" doesn't have any effect on the VMR7 (windowed) renderer, but works as expected with all the others.

I did not test VMR7 (windowed) with the 180.42 drivers on my system though. I use VMR9 in DVBViewer and I use Haali Renderer in applications that support it (e.g. MPC-HC).

Delerue

11th June 2009, 19:29

"Obviously" because on my system I can clearly reproduce that "Dynamic range" doesn't have any effect on the VMR7 (windowed) renderer, but works as expected with all the others.

I see. BTW, I noticed that EVR Custom makes the Sync Offset (CTRL+4) goes to the moon, hehehe. It keeps running ad eternum. With default EVR it doesn't happen. You can see this with the video I told you before.

sarastro

14th June 2009, 11:45

LoRd_MuldeR

14th June 2009, 13:23

Thanks to CLSID's Tool for changing the preferred DirectShow filters in Windows 7 I can now use the DXVA decoder of MPC-HC in Windows Media Center. Unfortunately the picture suffers from the luminance level problem discussed in this topic. In MPC-HC this also occurs, but I just use the pixelshaders to correct this problem.

How does one correct this on an ATI system? I've read (and reread) the start post, but don't know what to try in this case.

The easiest way would be using Haali's Renderer (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/) and set the desired luminance range in the renderer's option dialog.

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/3272/haaliluma.th.png (http://img34.imageshack.us/i/haaliluma.png/)

Also I think registry hacks exist for ATI hardware to adjust the luminance range, but I never used those. And now I'm not on ATI anymore...