How to avoid Generation Loss as much as possible?

[Undead Sega]

Dont worry, and the whole Generation Loss thing was originally going to be my solution of backing up the video as i at the time couldnt not find any other way until it was suggested using VideoReDo, and thats the Plus version, i do not have the TVSuite version, i did, but it somewhat didnt like ym computer, tht is why it took longer for me to do the whole process, so i cannot use it to make DVDs.

[Jay Bee]

Then just output the video from videoredo and use your DVD authoring tool of choice to make a DVD, again without any reencoding.

[Undead Sega]

As i said, i have different VOB files that i had to repair so i will result the same amount as i began with, from there, i joined them into a lossless avi to preserve quality, now i can either take it into an MPEG-2 or a DV-AVI with little loss of quality as the encoder of TMPGXpress of making MPEG's is pretty effiencent.

[Jay Bee]

As i said, i have different VOB files that i had to repair so i will result the same amount as i began with, from there,

right


i joined them into a lossless avi to preserve quality,

Please explain. The quality is exactly the same before and after this step. Except now you have increased the filesize by about an order of magnitude.


now i can either take it into an MPEG-2 or a DV-AVI with little loss of quality as the encoder of TMPGXpress of making MPEG's is pretty effiencent.

What for? I thought you didn't want to lose quality?

[Undead Sega]

Please explain. The quality is exactly the same before and after this step. Except now you have increased the filesize by about an order of magnitude.

Size isnt a big factor now, as i have enough space on my Hard Drive (500GB to be precise) and that because i wanted to repair the files, i did not want to loose quality while doing so, therefore that was the method i have done.

from there, it is then when i will take to a DVD (by encoding at a high bitrate MPEG-2), or into a DV-AVI for editing, which will backed into a MiniDV tape as a source. I am pretty sure DV-AVI isnt as bad when it comes to compressing MPEG-2 itself.

[Jay Bee]

You either need to describe better what you're actually trying to do or try a bit harder to understand what people are telling you.

What is the reason you want to reencode your files?

[Undead Sega]

Reason why i did that is because i would only have to reencode once (to a file that would substantially loose quality), that would be if i would want to put it onto DVD or DV-AVI, and wouldnt have the loss of quality if i were to encode the files when i was repairing them.

[Jay Bee]

Reason why i did that is because i would only have to reencode once (to a file that would substantially loose quality), that would be if i would want to put it onto DVD or DV-AVI, and wouldnt have the loss of quality if i were to encode the files when i was repairing them.

If you want to put MPEG-2 on DVD there is no reencode. If you want to put it on DV-AVI there is. But why are you doing a DVD to DVD conversion anyway?

[Undead Sega]

If u have read the thread, the problem was that i have some MiniDVDs that were recorded from a cam, and knowing now its nature, it resulted with many problems, dropepd in frames and A/V syncing. Also, the discs did not belong to me there i was allowed to make backups of the 6 discs (couple of which contained 2 titles) and some where DVD-RAMs as well, onto my computer, just asimple copy and paste for the DVD-RAMs and a DVDRip into a large VOB file from the remaining MiniDVDs.

My intention was to combine all footage into one, instead of having serveral which to me deemed unprofessional and have it backed onto a DVD (yes without re-encode) and DV-AVI, but because of the serious problem i overcame to, this is the route i decided to choose.

[Jay Bee]

So to make it short this is about joining multiple VOB files while keeping the audio sync? And where exactly were the frames dropped? Surely if they are missing, even videoredo wouldn't be able to fix it?

[Undead Sega]

VideoRedo can do both of removing unsync Video frames and funny enough it mentioned Audio frames that would be removed.

[2Bdecided]

The backup of the original footage is the fixed VOBs. If these need to be joined, no problem.

Simple cut/paste editing is also possible in VideoReDo - this will give a "lossless" edit - i.e. the footage which to use in the final edit is an exact bit-for-bit copy of the MPEG-2 master, with no re-encoding except at the cut points (assuming the original had a DVD compatible bitrate, resolution, GOP length etc - if not, it'll all get re-encoded).

If you want to do more adventurous editing, then either use an NLE that can accept MPEG-2 as a source (note: unless it smart renders, this implies re-encoding the whole lot anyway), or transcode to either lossless, or DV-AVI, and use almost any NLE. At the end, re-encode to MPEG-2 for DVD.

I think this is what you are intending to do. I'm not sure what questions are left to answer. If it's "how bad will it look" - I don't know - try it!

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

results are excellent, thanks very much for that! :D

lastly, the recorded footage is 704x576. Is it safe to resize it to 720x576? due to the fact of the interlacing?

[2Bdecided]

Leave it as 704x576. No need to resize - that's a valid DVD resolution.

You could easily resize to 720x576 without breaking the interlacing (only vertical resizing break interlacing), but (a) there's no point, (b) it'll make the picture slightly softer, and (c) it will (arguably) introduce a slight aspect ratio error.

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

It's perfectly fine, the interlace is fine and the slightly softer and slight aspect ratio error is very minor. Putting to DVD is fine, but my main task now is to try and get it to MiniDV.

i took it into Adobe Premiere Pro and interpret the footage to 16:9, however i found again another syncing issue, but i think it is due to the fact that Premiere Pro is not great at handling MPEG footage. Can something like Canoupus DV File Converter help at what im trying to do?

[carlyse_09]

I think to avoid that we should follow how to take good care of it.But then thanks for the nice ideas....

[Undead Sega]

hey everyone, i just want to say thanks for all thw help here, VideoReDo has done many wonders to me and i am very grateful for it tob e mentioned here :D

however, the reason why i am messaging here once again is becase there is still kinda one question that still hasnt been answered, which is to avoid generation loss, and refering to that, my question is, using any good or jigh quality playback equipment and using an S-Video connector to a computer to capture at a lossless AVI, would this still introduce loss of quality by any chance?

like a Hi8, VHS-C or a Laserdisc player?

[henryho_hk]

DV --(1)--> S-Video --(2)--> Analogue Capture by TV Card --(3)--> AVI again.... There will be loss of quality at

(1) digital-to-analogue conversion by your minicam
(2) cable quality and interference
(3) analogue-to-digital conversion by TV card, not to mention aspect ratio issues, noise, etc.

The pure digital path is still much preferred.

[Ghitulescu]

Hi, i dont know if this is the right place, but i was wondering, due to current circumstances, and as well due to the fact i would want to retain the quality of a video, would it be possible that if this method of capturing a MiniDVD by:

MiniDVD Camcorder > S-Video > TV Card/ Capturing Device (S-Video input) > Lossless .avi ?

or a using a S-Video to RGB to a RGB capturing device?

...be a way of trying to retain quality or a good way to try and eliminate some of the generation loss of quality in video as this method sometimes is known to do?

Or wat would be a recommended capturing solution?

P.S. Some people here might realise that i have made this over at the Videohelp forums, so i thought i would mention that here before anything of the obvious happening :D

It's indeed a strange situation.

I still do not understand what do you mean by "lossless". To this dizziness of mine contributed also your post (http://forum.videohelp.com/topic355938.html), wherein you said that you losslessy encoded with TMPGenc. Which is impossible. Both ways.

Well, you already have a lossy compression since a DVD-camcorder stores the video as MPEG-2. Which is lossy.

Now, the question is why you would like to create an AVI? A lossless codec, like Huff, would require 10x the space to preserve the original quality. A space efficient codec needs a lossy compression.

But I think the synch problem you mentioned is a real one. Why don't you try TMPGenc DVD Author, I'm sure it can extract the video/audio info from your original DVDs, wherein you can also reauthor (menus etc.) them. I suggest use 1.5, unless only the latest version (3.x) understands your DVD.

[Undead Sega]

Hi, thanks for your replies, but the previous has been already resolved with VideoReDo, however the reason i brought this up again is bwecause i just want to know from my previous post, if having that method would be one way to avoid generation loss.

the make it clear once again, any player of analogue source (good quality that is), and having an S-Video cable connected from the source to the capture card, and have it captured into a lossless avi (yes, like HuffYuv and Lagarith).

[jmartinr]

however, the reason why i am messaging here once again is becase there is still kinda one question that still hasnt been answered, which is to avoid generation loss, and refering to that, my question is, using any good or jigh quality playback equipment and using an S-Video connector to a computer to capture at a lossless AVI, would this still introduce loss of quality by any chance?

Yes, it would.

[Undead Sega]

So, from taking an analogue source as prementioned, is there any way to avoid generation loss when wanting to digitize them?

[Ghitulescu]

So, from taking an analogue source as prementioned, is there any way to avoid generation loss when wanting to digitize them?

What is a generation loss in your opinion?

Because the general meaning in the art is that a generation loss occurs during copying. You're not doing a copy but a capture. Well, it's like having a baby: s/he will not be you alike - that's a generation loss. But if you take a photo of youself - that's digitizing or capture.

There is a sticky somewhere about digitising analog sources, also some good guides in the net, google is your friend.

The best analog transmission would be YUV (or alternatively the more consumer RGB), then comes S-Video.

However, if your capture-card is not good enough (or you have to capture separately the sound with a sound card), then you will have AV synch problems. But if you use a digital connection (like firewire), then the sound is better in synch with audio (read about "locked audio").

[Undead Sega]

Generation loss as in loosing quality through copying, and this mainly takes place through analogue situations.

so preferably you are saying that YUV or RGB connections would provide no generation or quality loss? if thats the case, how would one do it with a VHS player? the only component ever to exist on a high end consumer player is an S-Video socket. Unless one would have to have a splitter or something?

[Ghitulescu]

the only component ever to exist on a high end consumer player is an S-Video socket. Unless one would have to have a splitter or something?

Nope, there's RGB.

Unfortunately, I know no VHS player/recorder with S-Video in/out, only Composite.

Unfortunately again, you have no clear idea of what you want to do. Take your time, study this sticky ->http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78797 and the references within then ask specific questions.

But coming back to your very first post: I'm really really really interested in how can a camcorder generate dropped frames during recording. If it's DVD-RAM you'll have ABSOLUTELY no dropped frame as DVD-RAM has built-in defect sectors management. If it's DVD-R (or a beyond reparation DVD-RAM) then you'll loose the sound as well. So the safest assumption is that you played the DVD back in your camcorder then captured the analogue video with a PC card.

[Undead Sega]

Nope, there's RGB.

Unfortunately, I know no VHS player/recorder with S-Video in/out, only Composite.

i am nto entirely understanding this, because there are many high end consumer VHS players that does S-video in/out and not only composite, the best example i can give is a VCR that i have been desperately been trying to get for the past 3 years, the Panasonic NV HS-960.

Unfortunately again, you have no clear idea of what you want to do. Take your time, study this sticky ->http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78797 and the references within then ask specific questions.

please dont say that :( otherwise i wouldnt be so welcomed in this board, or havent been doing the thing for awhile. Anyways, of course i have checked that guide out, and indeed it is very detailed, do i merely have to follow it specifically? i dont know if am able to measure the signals. So thre is no way to capture an analogue source purely?

But coming back to your very first post: I'm really really really interested in how can a camcorder generate dropped frames during recording. If it's DVD-RAM you'll have ABSOLUTELY no dropped frame as DVD-RAM has built-in defect sectors management. If it's DVD-R (or a beyond reparation DVD-RAM) then you'll loose the sound as well.

As i have said before, that problem has been solved, however you are right about the DVD-RAM, it has an error correction and really from my experience and advice i can is that anyone who has a miniDVD camcorder make sure it can record DVD-RAM and only record in DVD-RAM discs (thats if u have a DVD-RAM player) otherwise u can be screwed so badly. However as bad as it was, the recordings on the DVD-RAM were tons better than wat was recorded on a DVD-R, but when it came to ripping them, it was abit problematic as there was still syncing issues, and i dont think there was really any dropped frames as i would get with the latter.

It was again with VideoReDo to helm the problem better. The discs would have to go through a more extensive ripping, instead of something like DVDDecrypter (which can stil do the job), i used CDRoller to thoroughly extract the data from the discs frmo any disfections. It was from here, i took each VOB file into VideoReDo, fixed the streams and merged them together.

[jmartinr]

Generation loss as in loosing quality through copying, and this mainly takes place through analogue situations.

That's one assumption you shouldn't make. Encoding with a codec is (apart from the lossless ones, huffyuv and the like) lossy.

[Undead Sega]

That's one assumption you shouldn't make. Encoding with a codec is (apart from the lossless ones, huffyuv and the like) lossy.

Precisely why i mentioned a good few times, and even in the original post 'lossless' codec or avi.

so in regards to that, can i make an analogue capture without any loss of quality?

[Ghitulescu]

i am nto entirely understanding this, because there are many high end consumer VHS players that does S-video in/out and not only composite, the best example i can give is a VCR that i have been desperately been trying to get for the past 3 years, the Panasonic NV HS-960.


This model is an S-VHS, not a VHS. Even the VHS players that can SQPB do not have S-Video.

As i have said before, that problem has been solved, however you are right about the DVD-RAM, it has an error correction and really from my experience and advice i can is that anyone who has a miniDVD camcorder make sure it can record DVD-RAM and only record in DVD-RAM discs (thats if u have a DVD-RAM player) otherwise u can be screwed so badly. However as bad as it was, the recordings on the DVD-RAM were tons better than wat was recorded on a DVD-R, but when it came to ripping them, it was abit problematic as there was still syncing issues, and i dont think there was really any dropped frames as i would get with the latter.
That you have A/V not in synch is not purely due to dropped frames.
If the original recording were ok, then use TMPGenc DVD Author (this is a repeated hint see post 69 -> http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1293486#post1293486), it will work 30 days as a demo, plenty of time.
----

so in regards to that, can i make an analogue capture without any loss of quality?

You cannot. If you had the time to read the sticky http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78797, you would know this by now.

Unfortunately again, you have no clear idea of what you want to do. Take your time, study this sticky ->http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78797 and the references within then ask specific questions.

please dont say that otherwise i wouldnt be so welcomed in this board, or havent been doing the thing for awhile. Anyways, of course i have checked that guide out, and indeed it is very detailed, do i merely have to follow it specifically? i dont know if am able to measure the signals. So thre is no way to capture an analogue source purely?

I still do not understand what's "capture an analogue source purely", but since you refuse to understand the terminology and continue to mix up the things, nobody here I think can help you further.

For the last time:
1.analogue capturing is converting an analogue source into a digital one.
2.generation loss occurs only during copying ie making similar copies from a given source. It is not necessarily linked to analogue to analogue, it may be also related to digital-digital, although very rare.
3. analogue cannot be lossy or not, that's an attribute for digital
4. quality loss depends on your taste. especially when you said you cannot measure the parameters.
and
5. now, since you copied the discs on your computer is quite interesting for me that you want to do an analog capture, maybe you'll connect the video-out of your graphic card to the video-in of your capture card?

So you can now either do your own experimentations, or follow the guides ad literam.

[Undead Sega]

This model is an S-VHS, not a VHS. Even the VHS players that can SQPB do not have S-Video.

This model and many others DO have an S-Video In and Out.

That you have A/V not in synch is not purely due to dropped frames.
If the original recording were ok, then use TMPGenc DVD Author (this is a repeated hint see post 69 -> http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...86#post1293486), it will work 30 days as a demo, plenty of time.

Dropped frames or corrupt frames during recording can happen, and this was the case when using an early miniDVD camcorder on DVD-Rs, the problem is fixed now! with VideoReDo as i said many times, and the reason Why i brought this back up is because of the generation loss of quality when taking from one source to another.

The things u have listed, many of which i am already aware of, my taste of quality loss is simply quality loss, like not having to loose any detail on what already exist. Analogue capturing is what i am interested in this new matter, which i am asking is there any way to capture it without any quality loss? mind u once again, i will be capturing it top a lossless avi, so codecs is no problem on the matter here.

would i loose detail if i took a VCR to an analogue capture card connecting it by S-Video? if so, is there any way to retain the quality when being digitized.

[jmartinr]

You cannot. If you had the time to read the sticky http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78797, you would know this by now.

@Undead Sega: You can keep asking, but it's been answered quite a few times now.