How to avoid Generation Loss as much as possible?

[Undead Sega]

Hi, i dont know if this is the right place, but i was wondering, due to current circumstances, and as well due to the fact i would want to retain the quality of a video, would it be possible that if this method of capturing a MiniDVD by:

MiniDVD Camcorder > S-Video > TV Card/ Capturing Device (S-Video input) > Lossless .avi ?

or a using a S-Video to RGB to a RGB capturing device?

...be a way of trying to retain quality or a good way to try and eliminate some of the generation loss of quality in video as this method sometimes is known to do?

Or wat would be a recommended capturing solution?

P.S. Some people here might realise that i have made this over at the Videohelp forums, so i thought i would mention that here before anything of the obvious happening :D

[FlimsyFeet]

Well I'll ask the obvious: can't you just put the mini-DVD into your computer's drive and rip it?

[Undead Sega]

As i mentioned in the VideoHelp forums:

i have already tried ripping, but because of the dropped of frames while recording and having the computer perfectly read them, it will not be in sync as the camcorder will, as it cuts the audio by a few milisecs before a new scene or shot starts. Thus why i have to capture this way.

and reasons and hard experimentation:

http://forum.videohelp.com/topic355938.html

hope that helps.

[jmartinr]

The DVD plays fine in VLC. VLC can do some transcoding and remuxing. You could give that a try. I have no idea whether that works, but it should be easy to make a test run.

[Undead Sega]

i have tried the transcoding on VLC just now, but the problem might have to do with the GOP, also VLC can play the whole thing but only forcably, as on the bottom bar it says 10secs, when the whole video file is over 10-11mins.

tus, when i did the transcode, it could only transcode (or read) the first shot only (15secs) before it cuts to another.

[jmartinr]

Another approach is via directshow. If you can get it to play correctly in graphstudio, there might be some possibilities. You could also try ffmpeg for remuxing.

[Undead Sega]

I'll give that a go, however what just came into my mind was using FRAPS, to record directly off the screen (since VLC Player and PowerDVD plays it well) viewing in Fullscreen mode and into a lossless format.

would that be recommended?

[jmartinr]

If it works it works. If you can, set your display at 720x576@50. Than you have to hope the deinterlacing done by your player or videocard is any good, because the source is interlaced.:devil:

Take also a look at the video output modules of VLC. Take the right one. Or you might try "image file".

[Undead Sega]

When u say set ur display at 720x576, do u mean my desktop or the capture settings?

also, would i actually let it run at fullscreen mode or at the default window size when the video plays and capture that?

in additon, would this retain the quality 100%? and wouldnt i record it at 25fps, keeping the interlace fields?

[jmartinr]

I never used FRAPS. But anyway the capture must be 720x576. You can adjust the PAR of the output screen in VLC.

If you can record it at 25fps that's probably OK. But it will be deinterlaced. So that's not 100%, because the source is interlaced. But well, if you want to encode it you have to deinterlace it anyway.;)

[Undead Sega]

okay then, but if the capture has to be at 720x576 (duhhh...) will i record it from a windowed screen or fullscreen?

[jmartinr]

I don't know. Never used FRAPS.

Anther quite simple idea. Can't you edit the VOB in TMPGEnc Plus (it has some tools for that), and cut the right parts out?

[Undead Sega]

Naaah, tried that already, wont help the problem either, however last last night i have tried out FRAPS and it worked great! it will definately help solve my problem, only next problem is, when using players such as PowerDVD and Nero Showtime, it converts the video to RGB, thus giving the look as it if were shown on a TV (the footage would look slightly brighter or colours have changed).

is there a way to reverty back to how the footage exactly is?

[jmartinr]

You can make it YV12 via avisynth or so, but you can't get the original (MPEG2 interlaced) back. What do you want to do with it? Edit? Encode?

[Undead Sega]

Well it records into the lossless Fraps codec avi, i dont know if it will accept it, but so, if i did take it into avisynth with the script ConverttoYV12(), shoudl that revert it back to its original colours?

[jmartinr]

Sure.

[Undead Sega]

Okay, Fraps seem to do the job, the player stutters/ delays itself inorder to help sync with the audio which is fine, however Fraps itself does not even capture the Video audio which is a problem now, does anyone know how to solve this?

[2Bdecided]

I never used FRAPS. But anyway the capture must be 720x576. You can adjust the PAR of the output screen in VLC.

If you can record it at 25fps that's probably OK. But it will be deinterlaced.Not necessarily - just set VLC deinterlace none.

Did you share one of these nasty VOBs anywhere Undead Sega?

Cheers,
David.

[smok3]

I never used FRAPS. But anyway the capture must be 720x576. You can adjust the PAR of the output screen in VLC.

If you can record it at 25fps that's probably OK. But it will be deinterlaced. So that's not 100%, because the source is interlaced. But well, if you want to encode it you have to deinterlace it anyway.;)

if you can set the specific player to return interlaced frames (with bunch of combing of course) that would be a nice start for post (then you can later decide what to do, encode interlaced or not). the comp screen is always progressive btw. fraps should be able to capture only the active directx surface.

[Undead Sega]

[QUOTE=2Bdecided;1193273]Did you share one of these nasty VOBs anywhere Undead Sega?QUOTE]

Not yet, but will do, but may i remind that the MiniDVDs where ripped using CladDVDXP (cant remember the spelling) into one VOB file, however it still retains exactly how it is played, so i will cut up a file with a few scenes.

by the way, i got Fraps working now, all i had to do was update the sound drive or software on my computer, and Stereo Mix is working nicely but very loud, so i set it around 3% to get close approximation to the original as possible.

[2Bdecided]

Was that better than windows copy and paste?

You're assuming I read the original thread carefully - I can't even remember where it was!

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

Either way, i have now got an uploaded sample from the original VOB file:

http://www.filefactory.com/file/cf3877/n/VTS_01_02_1_Sample_VOB

i know it may be abit big, but i purposely did this because i wanted to show its flaws.

i also now have completed screencapturing all the VOBs from PowerDVD player using FRAPS, it may (as some say) loose its Interlacing, but i can somewhat recover it by using a Deinterlacer (like MCBob, YadifMod or better if anyone can recommend etc.) and reinterlacing it, i would do this because of whatever weird capturing it may have done on the interlaced information, thus it can still Bob deinterlace it (retaining as much information) and then reinterlacing, and edit from that and then deinterlacing it :D

[jmartinr]

i also now have completed screencapturing all the VOBs from PowerDVD player using FRAPS, it may (as some say) loose its Interlacing, but i can somewhat recover it by using a Deinterlacer (like MCBob, YadifMod or better if anyone can recommend etc.) and reinterlacing it, i would do this because of whatever weird capturing it may have done on the interlaced information, thus it can still Bob deinterlace it (retaining as much information) and then reinterlacing, and edit from that and then deinterlacing it :D

I don't really get the point here.

I'll try to get a look at your sample later and see whether the graph-route will work. I'm curious to see that.

[Undead Sega]

Get back to me ASAP here, im waiting for a reply in response to this :D

[jmartinr]

The graph route didn't work out well (lost sync while muxing it to mkv).

But which version of VirtualDub did you try? I got quite good results with the latest VirtualDub (1.8.6) with the MPEG-importfilter (previous and latest version will do: http://home.comcast.net/~fcchandler/index.html)

I just recoded to huffyuy and PCM. MedioInfo gives -80ms videodelay for the VOB. In the audio/video interleaving option of VirtualDub I also put in -80.

It is not perfect yet (audio still was a tiny bit late, checked at 5:08, the slap on the shoulder) but it is not much. If you make it say -120 it should be OK. I guess that this is the most practical solution.

[Undead Sega]

i see, i was using VirtualDub (1.8.5) with he MPEG-importfilter, and it is through there where i discover the flaws within the VOB and thwe recording from a MiniDVD camcorder.

from the very start, it is sync until it would cut to a new shot somewhere, as the camcorder drops frames and continues (for a few ms) record audio.

As i stated from the oringal thread in VideoHelp, when the orignal DVD is played on a player or on the camcorder itself, it cuts the audio by a few ms before the next shot comes in.

i need to know how you did this thus i can experiment abit myself, however can u also post or link me to this sample you have made yourself?
i would appreciate that and as well if u can further help me on this. Thanks again.

[jmartinr]

How much is it off after say 5 minutes? I only get minor problems. If the delay gets bad after 20 minutes, why don't you just select 5 minute video pieces at a time in VirtualDub, get that synced, and save them as huffyuv. That's would be exactly what I did, and I think it's quite good and, what's more important, the most practical way.

About posting the file. It's huffyuv now, so its a few Gigabyte big.;)

[Undead Sega]

for that VOB file, the whole footage is around 16mins to be exact, but i would want to get to the bottom of this to solve the problem because i do not want to be manually fixing 2hours and 1min of footage that is potentially out of sync.

however, for the VOB file, i believe the syncing differs only very slightly in each scene/shot but is crucial to have it all exactly the same.

Also in the original thread, because this is such a difficult situation on tryig to solve this, it was the reason why i made this thread in the first place, as i would want to be capturing off the original (as it would keep it in sync properly playing it from the camcorder) would be the best solution, but quality is top priority, thus why i asked if there is a way to avoid this problem of Generation loss, unless there was a way to capture it digitally bit by bit.

[jmartinr]

for that VOB file, the whole footage is around 16mins to be exact, but i would want to get to the bottom of this to solve the problem because i do not want to be manually fixing 2hours and 1min of footage that is potentially out of sync.

Might be the fastest and most practical way though.:D I don't have the time to look at other solutions at the moment. And I also doubt that perfection is really needed.

You could still go your FRAPS route. MPC with ffdshow plays the VOB file fine, interlaced and all if you want.

[Undead Sega]

Ahhh the FRAPS route almost worked, when i MCBob the footage, i get ghosting instead of solid deinterlacing, which i found strange, and indeed perfection is exactly i need in order to back up and reuse the footage very soon.

Either way, to the original question, which is why i asked after all of this, is there a way to avoid Generation Loss?

[jmartinr]

Aren't you overdoing your quest for quality? The footage is not of high quality itself.

[Undead Sega]

Precisely why i need to retain it.

also, is there such thing as a digital capture? abit like analog capturing to digital except the whole being digital itself?

[jmartinr]

If you have a DV camera, yes. But there's no solution there.

You're missing some basic points.

1. what is to be your end result, a DVD, an encode made for internet?

2. your FRAPS route might work, but will only be 100% when it stays interlaced, if not, you still might have a quite workable video.

3. shifting/stretching the audio is a practical approach. DGindex can index the VOB file, so you can open it in Avisynth and do a timestretch and resampling of the audio which enables you to work on 1 hour of video if you want.

[Undead Sega]

the FRAPS route almost worked, and as i stated in one of my previous post, when i MCBob the footage, i get ghosting instead of solid deinterlacing, which i found strange,

if i am able to resolve that, then its all gravy :D

[jmartinr]

You keep not answering nr.1.

And reinterlacing, MCBobbing etc. something that's been deinterlaced by the player is just plain nonsense.

[2Bdecided]

Undead Sega,

You're making your life unnecessarily difficult. There is a very easy solution to this.

Get VideoReDo (I have the TV suite version). Go to the Tools Menu, and select "QuickStream Fix". Point it at your VOB. It will fix it.

It works really well - it deletes all the extra frames that are causing desync, and syncs what remains perfectly. For example, DGIndex>AVIsynth handles the result without problems (whereas the original is, as you say, quite out of sync by the end). The result looks perfect on my PC, but I'd burn it to DVD and watch on a CRT to check.

Hope this helps. If it does, you owe me one.

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

I really do hope it does, but remember, i believe that it is the Video stream that is shorter (becdause of the dropped frames whilst recording) than the Audio stream itself. That i learnt from DGIndex>AVIsynth aswell. But...could this still work then?

[2Bdecided]

It works. I've done your 250MB VOB. That's why I posted.

Ye of little faith!

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

i see, would it be possible to have a look at this fixed video clip if you dont mind? i would really appreciate that! :D

[jmartinr]

You're a bit thick Undead Sega. It works. I just tried it too.

[Undead Sega]

Thanks very much for the kind words.

i tell you, i knwo this and that but its only this that i have not come across myself thus it being a new problem to me and have tried almost everything in the to which is why i brought the matter here and before in the VideoHelp forums.

[2Bdecided]

You're a bit thick Undead Sega. It works. I just tried it too.Anyone can try it - the full functionality is available in the free demo.

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

Fair enough, but i wouldnt have known at all, and i kinda saw VideoReDo as a 'really good' converter and nohing more, infact it didnt appeal to me that much in the begining, but since the introduction of HD-DVD and so forth, it plays an important role in that field, and it is pleasing after all what i have been though to get to a stage where i could close the book. I'll let you knwo how it goes.

[Undead Sega]

Okay, i tired it out with VideoReDo TVSuite and it recommends me to use QuickStream Fix, however when i do it, it keeps outputting 0 frames :(

how i ask, how do u do it exactly?

[2Bdecided]

Exactly what I said in my previous post.

Get VideoReDo (I have the TV suite version). Go to the Tools Menu, and select "QuickStream Fix". Point it at your VOB. It will fix it.

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

Ahhh i see the, well i got my first 2 VOB files working and synced with the Plus version, however, when i came to my .VRO file (which has 2 titles but only sees it as one through VLC Player) it only fixes the first title and i tried to get it to fix the other half but it doesnt work whatsoever.

[Undead Sega]

Hey guys, ive finally done after much difficulty with the software but managed to get it working by luck (done it using the Plus version), i was about to retire on the software and about to ask if there was an alternative to the specific funtion to VideoReDo, i have always wanted to achieve this result and i could have done it without you guys, especially 2Bdecided (yes, i do owe you one).

now i am at the stage of joining them all together in a lossless interlaced avi file to retain the quality that exist in it recorded from the MiniDVD camcorder. From here, it is now i will ask my next question, taking it either from a lossless avi or from the mpegs made to a DV codec, what effect would that have on the quality? or is it recommened at all?

thanks again! :D i really do appreciate your great help.

P.S. Both stated here (i think) and in the VideoHelp forums, this is a good example of using an early MiniDVD camcorder and i advice greatly not to get one! although if its a must, get one that can take DVD-RAM and use ONLY DVD-RAM discs for recordings. Yes, errors may have been fixed in more recent DVD cams in line, but this as well is a good example of wat to expect quality wise. Hope that helps.

[jmartinr]

I asked it it a few times before. What is going to be your end product?

And how are you going to edit it? For editing there's no need to join the source.

[Undead Sega]

My end product will obviously be for DVD (but that's one source for a backup) and i intend to make it like editing from a MiniDV thus why i asked what would the quality be like? would it compress it further? however, this is after i have done an edit, it will be exported back to a DV-AVI and that itself will be made into a DVD.

that is whyi needed to join the source, because we recorded in different discs that could only contain around 30mins max when adjusting for quality and speed, so it was more or less the whole footage was made up of 6-7 VOB/VRO files that needed to be slightly trimmed to cut out anything that isnt 'film' footage and using TMPGXPress to join and encode them into one lossless file.

[Jay Bee]

Stop all this conversion madness. Your source is MPEG-2. Your end goal is MPEG-2. Just use videoredo to make a DVD and be done with it. No compression or conversion involved.

And what is this generation loss you speak of anyway?

[Undead Sega]

Dont worry, and the whole Generation Loss thing was originally going to be my solution of backing up the video as i at the time couldnt not find any other way until it was suggested using VideoReDo, and thats the Plus version, i do not have the TVSuite version, i did, but it somewhat didnt like ym computer, tht is why it took longer for me to do the whole process, so i cannot use it to make DVDs.

[Jay Bee]

Then just output the video from videoredo and use your DVD authoring tool of choice to make a DVD, again without any reencoding.

[Undead Sega]

As i said, i have different VOB files that i had to repair so i will result the same amount as i began with, from there, i joined them into a lossless avi to preserve quality, now i can either take it into an MPEG-2 or a DV-AVI with little loss of quality as the encoder of TMPGXpress of making MPEG's is pretty effiencent.

[Jay Bee]

As i said, i have different VOB files that i had to repair so i will result the same amount as i began with, from there,

right


i joined them into a lossless avi to preserve quality,

Please explain. The quality is exactly the same before and after this step. Except now you have increased the filesize by about an order of magnitude.


now i can either take it into an MPEG-2 or a DV-AVI with little loss of quality as the encoder of TMPGXpress of making MPEG's is pretty effiencent.

What for? I thought you didn't want to lose quality?

[Undead Sega]

Please explain. The quality is exactly the same before and after this step. Except now you have increased the filesize by about an order of magnitude.

Size isnt a big factor now, as i have enough space on my Hard Drive (500GB to be precise) and that because i wanted to repair the files, i did not want to loose quality while doing so, therefore that was the method i have done.

from there, it is then when i will take to a DVD (by encoding at a high bitrate MPEG-2), or into a DV-AVI for editing, which will backed into a MiniDV tape as a source. I am pretty sure DV-AVI isnt as bad when it comes to compressing MPEG-2 itself.

[Jay Bee]

You either need to describe better what you're actually trying to do or try a bit harder to understand what people are telling you.

What is the reason you want to reencode your files?

[Undead Sega]

Reason why i did that is because i would only have to reencode once (to a file that would substantially loose quality), that would be if i would want to put it onto DVD or DV-AVI, and wouldnt have the loss of quality if i were to encode the files when i was repairing them.

[Jay Bee]

Reason why i did that is because i would only have to reencode once (to a file that would substantially loose quality), that would be if i would want to put it onto DVD or DV-AVI, and wouldnt have the loss of quality if i were to encode the files when i was repairing them.

If you want to put MPEG-2 on DVD there is no reencode. If you want to put it on DV-AVI there is. But why are you doing a DVD to DVD conversion anyway?

[Undead Sega]

If u have read the thread, the problem was that i have some MiniDVDs that were recorded from a cam, and knowing now its nature, it resulted with many problems, dropepd in frames and A/V syncing. Also, the discs did not belong to me there i was allowed to make backups of the 6 discs (couple of which contained 2 titles) and some where DVD-RAMs as well, onto my computer, just asimple copy and paste for the DVD-RAMs and a DVDRip into a large VOB file from the remaining MiniDVDs.

My intention was to combine all footage into one, instead of having serveral which to me deemed unprofessional and have it backed onto a DVD (yes without re-encode) and DV-AVI, but because of the serious problem i overcame to, this is the route i decided to choose.

[Jay Bee]

So to make it short this is about joining multiple VOB files while keeping the audio sync? And where exactly were the frames dropped? Surely if they are missing, even videoredo wouldn't be able to fix it?

[Undead Sega]

VideoRedo can do both of removing unsync Video frames and funny enough it mentioned Audio frames that would be removed.

[2Bdecided]

The backup of the original footage is the fixed VOBs. If these need to be joined, no problem.

Simple cut/paste editing is also possible in VideoReDo - this will give a "lossless" edit - i.e. the footage which to use in the final edit is an exact bit-for-bit copy of the MPEG-2 master, with no re-encoding except at the cut points (assuming the original had a DVD compatible bitrate, resolution, GOP length etc - if not, it'll all get re-encoded).

If you want to do more adventurous editing, then either use an NLE that can accept MPEG-2 as a source (note: unless it smart renders, this implies re-encoding the whole lot anyway), or transcode to either lossless, or DV-AVI, and use almost any NLE. At the end, re-encode to MPEG-2 for DVD.

I think this is what you are intending to do. I'm not sure what questions are left to answer. If it's "how bad will it look" - I don't know - try it!

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

results are excellent, thanks very much for that! :D

lastly, the recorded footage is 704x576. Is it safe to resize it to 720x576? due to the fact of the interlacing?

[2Bdecided]

Leave it as 704x576. No need to resize - that's a valid DVD resolution.

You could easily resize to 720x576 without breaking the interlacing (only vertical resizing break interlacing), but (a) there's no point, (b) it'll make the picture slightly softer, and (c) it will (arguably) introduce a slight aspect ratio error.

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

It's perfectly fine, the interlace is fine and the slightly softer and slight aspect ratio error is very minor. Putting to DVD is fine, but my main task now is to try and get it to MiniDV.

i took it into Adobe Premiere Pro and interpret the footage to 16:9, however i found again another syncing issue, but i think it is due to the fact that Premiere Pro is not great at handling MPEG footage. Can something like Canoupus DV File Converter help at what im trying to do?

[carlyse_09]

I think to avoid that we should follow how to take good care of it.But then thanks for the nice ideas....

[Undead Sega]

hey everyone, i just want to say thanks for all thw help here, VideoReDo has done many wonders to me and i am very grateful for it tob e mentioned here :D

however, the reason why i am messaging here once again is becase there is still kinda one question that still hasnt been answered, which is to avoid generation loss, and refering to that, my question is, using any good or jigh quality playback equipment and using an S-Video connector to a computer to capture at a lossless AVI, would this still introduce loss of quality by any chance?

like a Hi8, VHS-C or a Laserdisc player?

[henryho_hk]

DV --(1)--> S-Video --(2)--> Analogue Capture by TV Card --(3)--> AVI again.... There will be loss of quality at

(1) digital-to-analogue conversion by your minicam
(2) cable quality and interference
(3) analogue-to-digital conversion by TV card, not to mention aspect ratio issues, noise, etc.

The pure digital path is still much preferred.

[Ghitulescu]

Hi, i dont know if this is the right place, but i was wondering, due to current circumstances, and as well due to the fact i would want to retain the quality of a video, would it be possible that if this method of capturing a MiniDVD by:

MiniDVD Camcorder > S-Video > TV Card/ Capturing Device (S-Video input) > Lossless .avi ?

or a using a S-Video to RGB to a RGB capturing device?

...be a way of trying to retain quality or a good way to try and eliminate some of the generation loss of quality in video as this method sometimes is known to do?

Or wat would be a recommended capturing solution?

P.S. Some people here might realise that i have made this over at the Videohelp forums, so i thought i would mention that here before anything of the obvious happening :D

It's indeed a strange situation.

I still do not understand what do you mean by "lossless". To this dizziness of mine contributed also your post (http://forum.videohelp.com/topic355938.html), wherein you said that you losslessy encoded with TMPGenc. Which is impossible. Both ways.

Well, you already have a lossy compression since a DVD-camcorder stores the video as MPEG-2. Which is lossy.

Now, the question is why you would like to create an AVI? A lossless codec, like Huff, would require 10x the space to preserve the original quality. A space efficient codec needs a lossy compression.

But I think the synch problem you mentioned is a real one. Why don't you try TMPGenc DVD Author, I'm sure it can extract the video/audio info from your original DVDs, wherein you can also reauthor (menus etc.) them. I suggest use 1.5, unless only the latest version (3.x) understands your DVD.

[Undead Sega]

Hi, thanks for your replies, but the previous has been already resolved with VideoReDo, however the reason i brought this up again is bwecause i just want to know from my previous post, if having that method would be one way to avoid generation loss.

the make it clear once again, any player of analogue source (good quality that is), and having an S-Video cable connected from the source to the capture card, and have it captured into a lossless avi (yes, like HuffYuv and Lagarith).

[jmartinr]

however, the reason why i am messaging here once again is becase there is still kinda one question that still hasnt been answered, which is to avoid generation loss, and refering to that, my question is, using any good or jigh quality playback equipment and using an S-Video connector to a computer to capture at a lossless AVI, would this still introduce loss of quality by any chance?

Yes, it would.

[Undead Sega]

So, from taking an analogue source as prementioned, is there any way to avoid generation loss when wanting to digitize them?

[Ghitulescu]

So, from taking an analogue source as prementioned, is there any way to avoid generation loss when wanting to digitize them?

What is a generation loss in your opinion?

Because the general meaning in the art is that a generation loss occurs during copying. You're not doing a copy but a capture. Well, it's like having a baby: s/he will not be you alike - that's a generation loss. But if you take a photo of youself - that's digitizing or capture.

There is a sticky somewhere about digitising analog sources, also some good guides in the net, google is your friend.

The best analog transmission would be YUV (or alternatively the more consumer RGB), then comes S-Video.

However, if your capture-card is not good enough (or you have to capture separately the sound with a sound card), then you will have AV synch problems. But if you use a digital connection (like firewire), then the sound is better in synch with audio (read about "locked audio").

[Undead Sega]

Generation loss as in loosing quality through copying, and this mainly takes place through analogue situations.

so preferably you are saying that YUV or RGB connections would provide no generation or quality loss? if thats the case, how would one do it with a VHS player? the only component ever to exist on a high end consumer player is an S-Video socket. Unless one would have to have a splitter or something?

[Ghitulescu]

the only component ever to exist on a high end consumer player is an S-Video socket. Unless one would have to have a splitter or something?

Nope, there's RGB.

Unfortunately, I know no VHS player/recorder with S-Video in/out, only Composite.

Unfortunately again, you have no clear idea of what you want to do. Take your time, study this sticky ->http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78797 and the references within then ask specific questions.

But coming back to your very first post: I'm really really really interested in how can a camcorder generate dropped frames during recording. If it's DVD-RAM you'll have ABSOLUTELY no dropped frame as DVD-RAM has built-in defect sectors management. If it's DVD-R (or a beyond reparation DVD-RAM) then you'll loose the sound as well. So the safest assumption is that you played the DVD back in your camcorder then captured the analogue video with a PC card.

[Undead Sega]

Nope, there's RGB.

Unfortunately, I know no VHS player/recorder with S-Video in/out, only Composite.

i am nto entirely understanding this, because there are many high end consumer VHS players that does S-video in/out and not only composite, the best example i can give is a VCR that i have been desperately been trying to get for the past 3 years, the Panasonic NV HS-960.

Unfortunately again, you have no clear idea of what you want to do. Take your time, study this sticky ->http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78797 and the references within then ask specific questions.

please dont say that :( otherwise i wouldnt be so welcomed in this board, or havent been doing the thing for awhile. Anyways, of course i have checked that guide out, and indeed it is very detailed, do i merely have to follow it specifically? i dont know if am able to measure the signals. So thre is no way to capture an analogue source purely?

But coming back to your very first post: I'm really really really interested in how can a camcorder generate dropped frames during recording. If it's DVD-RAM you'll have ABSOLUTELY no dropped frame as DVD-RAM has built-in defect sectors management. If it's DVD-R (or a beyond reparation DVD-RAM) then you'll loose the sound as well.

As i have said before, that problem has been solved, however you are right about the DVD-RAM, it has an error correction and really from my experience and advice i can is that anyone who has a miniDVD camcorder make sure it can record DVD-RAM and only record in DVD-RAM discs (thats if u have a DVD-RAM player) otherwise u can be screwed so badly. However as bad as it was, the recordings on the DVD-RAM were tons better than wat was recorded on a DVD-R, but when it came to ripping them, it was abit problematic as there was still syncing issues, and i dont think there was really any dropped frames as i would get with the latter.

It was again with VideoReDo to helm the problem better. The discs would have to go through a more extensive ripping, instead of something like DVDDecrypter (which can stil do the job), i used CDRoller to thoroughly extract the data from the discs frmo any disfections. It was from here, i took each VOB file into VideoReDo, fixed the streams and merged them together.

[jmartinr]

Generation loss as in loosing quality through copying, and this mainly takes place through analogue situations.

That's one assumption you shouldn't make. Encoding with a codec is (apart from the lossless ones, huffyuv and the like) lossy.

[Undead Sega]

That's one assumption you shouldn't make. Encoding with a codec is (apart from the lossless ones, huffyuv and the like) lossy.

Precisely why i mentioned a good few times, and even in the original post 'lossless' codec or avi.

so in regards to that, can i make an analogue capture without any loss of quality?

[Ghitulescu]

i am nto entirely understanding this, because there are many high end consumer VHS players that does S-video in/out and not only composite, the best example i can give is a VCR that i have been desperately been trying to get for the past 3 years, the Panasonic NV HS-960.


This model is an S-VHS, not a VHS. Even the VHS players that can SQPB do not have S-Video.

As i have said before, that problem has been solved, however you are right about the DVD-RAM, it has an error correction and really from my experience and advice i can is that anyone who has a miniDVD camcorder make sure it can record DVD-RAM and only record in DVD-RAM discs (thats if u have a DVD-RAM player) otherwise u can be screwed so badly. However as bad as it was, the recordings on the DVD-RAM were tons better than wat was recorded on a DVD-R, but when it came to ripping them, it was abit problematic as there was still syncing issues, and i dont think there was really any dropped frames as i would get with the latter.
That you have A/V not in synch is not purely due to dropped frames.
If the original recording were ok, then use TMPGenc DVD Author (this is a repeated hint see post 69 -> http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1293486#post1293486), it will work 30 days as a demo, plenty of time.
----

so in regards to that, can i make an analogue capture without any loss of quality?

You cannot. If you had the time to read the sticky http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78797, you would know this by now.

Unfortunately again, you have no clear idea of what you want to do. Take your time, study this sticky ->http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78797 and the references within then ask specific questions.

please dont say that otherwise i wouldnt be so welcomed in this board, or havent been doing the thing for awhile. Anyways, of course i have checked that guide out, and indeed it is very detailed, do i merely have to follow it specifically? i dont know if am able to measure the signals. So thre is no way to capture an analogue source purely?

I still do not understand what's "capture an analogue source purely", but since you refuse to understand the terminology and continue to mix up the things, nobody here I think can help you further.

For the last time:
1.analogue capturing is converting an analogue source into a digital one.
2.generation loss occurs only during copying ie making similar copies from a given source. It is not necessarily linked to analogue to analogue, it may be also related to digital-digital, although very rare.
3. analogue cannot be lossy or not, that's an attribute for digital
4. quality loss depends on your taste. especially when you said you cannot measure the parameters.
and
5. now, since you copied the discs on your computer is quite interesting for me that you want to do an analog capture, maybe you'll connect the video-out of your graphic card to the video-in of your capture card?

So you can now either do your own experimentations, or follow the guides ad literam.

[Undead Sega]

This model is an S-VHS, not a VHS. Even the VHS players that can SQPB do not have S-Video.

This model and many others DO have an S-Video In and Out.

That you have A/V not in synch is not purely due to dropped frames.
If the original recording were ok, then use TMPGenc DVD Author (this is a repeated hint see post 69 -> http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...86#post1293486), it will work 30 days as a demo, plenty of time.

Dropped frames or corrupt frames during recording can happen, and this was the case when using an early miniDVD camcorder on DVD-Rs, the problem is fixed now! with VideoReDo as i said many times, and the reason Why i brought this back up is because of the generation loss of quality when taking from one source to another.

The things u have listed, many of which i am already aware of, my taste of quality loss is simply quality loss, like not having to loose any detail on what already exist. Analogue capturing is what i am interested in this new matter, which i am asking is there any way to capture it without any quality loss? mind u once again, i will be capturing it top a lossless avi, so codecs is no problem on the matter here.

would i loose detail if i took a VCR to an analogue capture card connecting it by S-Video? if so, is there any way to retain the quality when being digitized.

[jmartinr]

You cannot. If you had the time to read the sticky http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78797, you would know this by now.

@Undead Sega: You can keep asking, but it's been answered quite a few times now.