How to avoid Generation Loss as much as possible?

[Undead Sega]

Hi, i dont know if this is the right place, but i was wondering, due to current circumstances, and as well due to the fact i would want to retain the quality of a video, would it be possible that if this method of capturing a MiniDVD by:

MiniDVD Camcorder > S-Video > TV Card/ Capturing Device (S-Video input) > Lossless .avi ?

or a using a S-Video to RGB to a RGB capturing device?

...be a way of trying to retain quality or a good way to try and eliminate some of the generation loss of quality in video as this method sometimes is known to do?

Or wat would be a recommended capturing solution?

P.S. Some people here might realise that i have made this over at the Videohelp forums, so i thought i would mention that here before anything of the obvious happening :D

[FlimsyFeet]

Well I'll ask the obvious: can't you just put the mini-DVD into your computer's drive and rip it?

[Undead Sega]

As i mentioned in the VideoHelp forums:

i have already tried ripping, but because of the dropped of frames while recording and having the computer perfectly read them, it will not be in sync as the camcorder will, as it cuts the audio by a few milisecs before a new scene or shot starts. Thus why i have to capture this way.

and reasons and hard experimentation:

http://forum.videohelp.com/topic355938.html

hope that helps.

[jmartinr]

The DVD plays fine in VLC. VLC can do some transcoding and remuxing. You could give that a try. I have no idea whether that works, but it should be easy to make a test run.

[Undead Sega]

i have tried the transcoding on VLC just now, but the problem might have to do with the GOP, also VLC can play the whole thing but only forcably, as on the bottom bar it says 10secs, when the whole video file is over 10-11mins.

tus, when i did the transcode, it could only transcode (or read) the first shot only (15secs) before it cuts to another.

[jmartinr]

Another approach is via directshow. If you can get it to play correctly in graphstudio, there might be some possibilities. You could also try ffmpeg for remuxing.

[Undead Sega]

I'll give that a go, however what just came into my mind was using FRAPS, to record directly off the screen (since VLC Player and PowerDVD plays it well) viewing in Fullscreen mode and into a lossless format.

would that be recommended?

[jmartinr]

If it works it works. If you can, set your display at 720x576@50. Than you have to hope the deinterlacing done by your player or videocard is any good, because the source is interlaced.:devil:

Take also a look at the video output modules of VLC. Take the right one. Or you might try "image file".

[Undead Sega]

When u say set ur display at 720x576, do u mean my desktop or the capture settings?

also, would i actually let it run at fullscreen mode or at the default window size when the video plays and capture that?

in additon, would this retain the quality 100%? and wouldnt i record it at 25fps, keeping the interlace fields?

[jmartinr]

I never used FRAPS. But anyway the capture must be 720x576. You can adjust the PAR of the output screen in VLC.

If you can record it at 25fps that's probably OK. But it will be deinterlaced. So that's not 100%, because the source is interlaced. But well, if you want to encode it you have to deinterlace it anyway.;)

[Undead Sega]

okay then, but if the capture has to be at 720x576 (duhhh...) will i record it from a windowed screen or fullscreen?

[jmartinr]

I don't know. Never used FRAPS.

Anther quite simple idea. Can't you edit the VOB in TMPGEnc Plus (it has some tools for that), and cut the right parts out?

[Undead Sega]

Naaah, tried that already, wont help the problem either, however last last night i have tried out FRAPS and it worked great! it will definately help solve my problem, only next problem is, when using players such as PowerDVD and Nero Showtime, it converts the video to RGB, thus giving the look as it if were shown on a TV (the footage would look slightly brighter or colours have changed).

is there a way to reverty back to how the footage exactly is?

[jmartinr]

You can make it YV12 via avisynth or so, but you can't get the original (MPEG2 interlaced) back. What do you want to do with it? Edit? Encode?

[Undead Sega]

Well it records into the lossless Fraps codec avi, i dont know if it will accept it, but so, if i did take it into avisynth with the script ConverttoYV12(), shoudl that revert it back to its original colours?

[jmartinr]

Sure.

[Undead Sega]

Okay, Fraps seem to do the job, the player stutters/ delays itself inorder to help sync with the audio which is fine, however Fraps itself does not even capture the Video audio which is a problem now, does anyone know how to solve this?

[2Bdecided]

I never used FRAPS. But anyway the capture must be 720x576. You can adjust the PAR of the output screen in VLC.

If you can record it at 25fps that's probably OK. But it will be deinterlaced.Not necessarily - just set VLC deinterlace none.

Did you share one of these nasty VOBs anywhere Undead Sega?

Cheers,
David.

[smok3]

I never used FRAPS. But anyway the capture must be 720x576. You can adjust the PAR of the output screen in VLC.

If you can record it at 25fps that's probably OK. But it will be deinterlaced. So that's not 100%, because the source is interlaced. But well, if you want to encode it you have to deinterlace it anyway.;)

if you can set the specific player to return interlaced frames (with bunch of combing of course) that would be a nice start for post (then you can later decide what to do, encode interlaced or not). the comp screen is always progressive btw. fraps should be able to capture only the active directx surface.

[Undead Sega]

[QUOTE=2Bdecided;1193273]Did you share one of these nasty VOBs anywhere Undead Sega?QUOTE]

Not yet, but will do, but may i remind that the MiniDVDs where ripped using CladDVDXP (cant remember the spelling) into one VOB file, however it still retains exactly how it is played, so i will cut up a file with a few scenes.

by the way, i got Fraps working now, all i had to do was update the sound drive or software on my computer, and Stereo Mix is working nicely but very loud, so i set it around 3% to get close approximation to the original as possible.

[2Bdecided]

Was that better than windows copy and paste?

You're assuming I read the original thread carefully - I can't even remember where it was!

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

Either way, i have now got an uploaded sample from the original VOB file:

http://www.filefactory.com/file/cf3877/n/VTS_01_02_1_Sample_VOB

i know it may be abit big, but i purposely did this because i wanted to show its flaws.

i also now have completed screencapturing all the VOBs from PowerDVD player using FRAPS, it may (as some say) loose its Interlacing, but i can somewhat recover it by using a Deinterlacer (like MCBob, YadifMod or better if anyone can recommend etc.) and reinterlacing it, i would do this because of whatever weird capturing it may have done on the interlaced information, thus it can still Bob deinterlace it (retaining as much information) and then reinterlacing, and edit from that and then deinterlacing it :D

[jmartinr]

i also now have completed screencapturing all the VOBs from PowerDVD player using FRAPS, it may (as some say) loose its Interlacing, but i can somewhat recover it by using a Deinterlacer (like MCBob, YadifMod or better if anyone can recommend etc.) and reinterlacing it, i would do this because of whatever weird capturing it may have done on the interlaced information, thus it can still Bob deinterlace it (retaining as much information) and then reinterlacing, and edit from that and then deinterlacing it :D

I don't really get the point here.

I'll try to get a look at your sample later and see whether the graph-route will work. I'm curious to see that.

[Undead Sega]

Get back to me ASAP here, im waiting for a reply in response to this :D

[jmartinr]

The graph route didn't work out well (lost sync while muxing it to mkv).

But which version of VirtualDub did you try? I got quite good results with the latest VirtualDub (1.8.6) with the MPEG-importfilter (previous and latest version will do: http://home.comcast.net/~fcchandler/index.html)

I just recoded to huffyuy and PCM. MedioInfo gives -80ms videodelay for the VOB. In the audio/video interleaving option of VirtualDub I also put in -80.

It is not perfect yet (audio still was a tiny bit late, checked at 5:08, the slap on the shoulder) but it is not much. If you make it say -120 it should be OK. I guess that this is the most practical solution.

[Undead Sega]

i see, i was using VirtualDub (1.8.5) with he MPEG-importfilter, and it is through there where i discover the flaws within the VOB and thwe recording from a MiniDVD camcorder.

from the very start, it is sync until it would cut to a new shot somewhere, as the camcorder drops frames and continues (for a few ms) record audio.

As i stated from the oringal thread in VideoHelp, when the orignal DVD is played on a player or on the camcorder itself, it cuts the audio by a few ms before the next shot comes in.

i need to know how you did this thus i can experiment abit myself, however can u also post or link me to this sample you have made yourself?
i would appreciate that and as well if u can further help me on this. Thanks again.

[jmartinr]

How much is it off after say 5 minutes? I only get minor problems. If the delay gets bad after 20 minutes, why don't you just select 5 minute video pieces at a time in VirtualDub, get that synced, and save them as huffyuv. That's would be exactly what I did, and I think it's quite good and, what's more important, the most practical way.

About posting the file. It's huffyuv now, so its a few Gigabyte big.;)

[Undead Sega]

for that VOB file, the whole footage is around 16mins to be exact, but i would want to get to the bottom of this to solve the problem because i do not want to be manually fixing 2hours and 1min of footage that is potentially out of sync.

however, for the VOB file, i believe the syncing differs only very slightly in each scene/shot but is crucial to have it all exactly the same.

Also in the original thread, because this is such a difficult situation on tryig to solve this, it was the reason why i made this thread in the first place, as i would want to be capturing off the original (as it would keep it in sync properly playing it from the camcorder) would be the best solution, but quality is top priority, thus why i asked if there is a way to avoid this problem of Generation loss, unless there was a way to capture it digitally bit by bit.

[jmartinr]

for that VOB file, the whole footage is around 16mins to be exact, but i would want to get to the bottom of this to solve the problem because i do not want to be manually fixing 2hours and 1min of footage that is potentially out of sync.

Might be the fastest and most practical way though.:D I don't have the time to look at other solutions at the moment. And I also doubt that perfection is really needed.

You could still go your FRAPS route. MPC with ffdshow plays the VOB file fine, interlaced and all if you want.

[Undead Sega]

Ahhh the FRAPS route almost worked, when i MCBob the footage, i get ghosting instead of solid deinterlacing, which i found strange, and indeed perfection is exactly i need in order to back up and reuse the footage very soon.

Either way, to the original question, which is why i asked after all of this, is there a way to avoid Generation Loss?

[jmartinr]

Aren't you overdoing your quest for quality? The footage is not of high quality itself.

[Undead Sega]

Precisely why i need to retain it.

also, is there such thing as a digital capture? abit like analog capturing to digital except the whole being digital itself?

[jmartinr]

If you have a DV camera, yes. But there's no solution there.

You're missing some basic points.

1. what is to be your end result, a DVD, an encode made for internet?

2. your FRAPS route might work, but will only be 100% when it stays interlaced, if not, you still might have a quite workable video.

3. shifting/stretching the audio is a practical approach. DGindex can index the VOB file, so you can open it in Avisynth and do a timestretch and resampling of the audio which enables you to work on 1 hour of video if you want.

[Undead Sega]

the FRAPS route almost worked, and as i stated in one of my previous post, when i MCBob the footage, i get ghosting instead of solid deinterlacing, which i found strange,

if i am able to resolve that, then its all gravy :D

[jmartinr]

You keep not answering nr.1.

And reinterlacing, MCBobbing etc. something that's been deinterlaced by the player is just plain nonsense.

[2Bdecided]

Undead Sega,

You're making your life unnecessarily difficult. There is a very easy solution to this.

Get VideoReDo (I have the TV suite version). Go to the Tools Menu, and select "QuickStream Fix". Point it at your VOB. It will fix it.

It works really well - it deletes all the extra frames that are causing desync, and syncs what remains perfectly. For example, DGIndex>AVIsynth handles the result without problems (whereas the original is, as you say, quite out of sync by the end). The result looks perfect on my PC, but I'd burn it to DVD and watch on a CRT to check.

Hope this helps. If it does, you owe me one.

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

I really do hope it does, but remember, i believe that it is the Video stream that is shorter (becdause of the dropped frames whilst recording) than the Audio stream itself. That i learnt from DGIndex>AVIsynth aswell. But...could this still work then?

[2Bdecided]

It works. I've done your 250MB VOB. That's why I posted.

Ye of little faith!

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

i see, would it be possible to have a look at this fixed video clip if you dont mind? i would really appreciate that! :D

[jmartinr]

You're a bit thick Undead Sega. It works. I just tried it too.

[Undead Sega]

Thanks very much for the kind words.

i tell you, i knwo this and that but its only this that i have not come across myself thus it being a new problem to me and have tried almost everything in the to which is why i brought the matter here and before in the VideoHelp forums.

[2Bdecided]

You're a bit thick Undead Sega. It works. I just tried it too.Anyone can try it - the full functionality is available in the free demo.

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

Fair enough, but i wouldnt have known at all, and i kinda saw VideoReDo as a 'really good' converter and nohing more, infact it didnt appeal to me that much in the begining, but since the introduction of HD-DVD and so forth, it plays an important role in that field, and it is pleasing after all what i have been though to get to a stage where i could close the book. I'll let you knwo how it goes.

[Undead Sega]

Okay, i tired it out with VideoReDo TVSuite and it recommends me to use QuickStream Fix, however when i do it, it keeps outputting 0 frames :(

how i ask, how do u do it exactly?

[2Bdecided]

Exactly what I said in my previous post.

Get VideoReDo (I have the TV suite version). Go to the Tools Menu, and select "QuickStream Fix". Point it at your VOB. It will fix it.

Cheers,
David.

[Undead Sega]

Ahhh i see the, well i got my first 2 VOB files working and synced with the Plus version, however, when i came to my .VRO file (which has 2 titles but only sees it as one through VLC Player) it only fixes the first title and i tried to get it to fix the other half but it doesnt work whatsoever.

[Undead Sega]

Hey guys, ive finally done after much difficulty with the software but managed to get it working by luck (done it using the Plus version), i was about to retire on the software and about to ask if there was an alternative to the specific funtion to VideoReDo, i have always wanted to achieve this result and i could have done it without you guys, especially 2Bdecided (yes, i do owe you one).

now i am at the stage of joining them all together in a lossless interlaced avi file to retain the quality that exist in it recorded from the MiniDVD camcorder. From here, it is now i will ask my next question, taking it either from a lossless avi or from the mpegs made to a DV codec, what effect would that have on the quality? or is it recommened at all?

thanks again! :D i really do appreciate your great help.

P.S. Both stated here (i think) and in the VideoHelp forums, this is a good example of using an early MiniDVD camcorder and i advice greatly not to get one! although if its a must, get one that can take DVD-RAM and use ONLY DVD-RAM discs for recordings. Yes, errors may have been fixed in more recent DVD cams in line, but this as well is a good example of wat to expect quality wise. Hope that helps.

[jmartinr]

I asked it it a few times before. What is going to be your end product?

And how are you going to edit it? For editing there's no need to join the source.

[Undead Sega]

My end product will obviously be for DVD (but that's one source for a backup) and i intend to make it like editing from a MiniDV thus why i asked what would the quality be like? would it compress it further? however, this is after i have done an edit, it will be exported back to a DV-AVI and that itself will be made into a DVD.

that is whyi needed to join the source, because we recorded in different discs that could only contain around 30mins max when adjusting for quality and speed, so it was more or less the whole footage was made up of 6-7 VOB/VRO files that needed to be slightly trimmed to cut out anything that isnt 'film' footage and using TMPGXPress to join and encode them into one lossless file.

[Jay Bee]

Stop all this conversion madness. Your source is MPEG-2. Your end goal is MPEG-2. Just use videoredo to make a DVD and be done with it. No compression or conversion involved.

And what is this generation loss you speak of anyway?