Scenarist 4.1 avc/vc1 assets

[Trahald]

but x264 don't produce HDDVD/BD compliant elementary stream because:
- vbv work correctly only in CBR mode for x264, vbv in multipass mode fail and crf mode too.
- x264 don't write HRD parameters in the bitstream.

Actually you can't use x264 for make HDDVD/BD compliant stream ... :-(

yeah... i looked at my x264 output and then the mainconcept output in the hex viewer.. and heres what i see.Reference h264 es (mainconcept)
0x00000001

gop header
09 10 ?? at the beginning of reference elementary h264 stream - no other data in header
67 64 ?? second header in reference elementary h264 stream - 40 bytes data
68 e8 ?? third header in reference stream 4 bytes
06 00 ?? fourth header in reference stream 18 bytes
65 88 ?? fifth header in reference stream large (picture header?)

picture
09 30 ?? after large segment (0x65) - no other data
06 01 ?? 14 bytes
41 9a ?? large (picture?)

or

picture
09 30 ?? after large segment (0x65) - no other data
06 01 ?? 14 bytes
01 9e ?? large (picture?)

above headers repeat


AVC I made test_avc_video.raw (x264 demulltiplex with yamb)

0x00000001

gop
06 05 ?? at the beginning .. contains open text of the encoder used and parameters used
67 4d ?? 21 bytes
68 ce ?? 3 bytes
65 88 ?? data segment (picture?)

picture
41 9a ?? data segment (picture?)

or

picture
01 9e ?? data segment (picture?)

repeat above (either 41 or 01)the x264 has the extra 0x06 header (which is just text of the settings used) which wasnt in the elementary stream. i dont think that hurts anything... but its missing headers info in the group header area and missing headers in the picture area.

im pretty sure once what is missing is under stood, that the file can just be updated with the extra header info and a reencoding would not be necessary

[chadamir]

Trahald, would it be possible to just replace the x264 header with the mainconcept header.

Also, I tried elecard converter studio which uses the same codec as mainconcept (15K free frames). It does not work. You might check the difference between those two encodes and see how the header has changed.

[Malow]

i think scenarist wants to sell their encodig software... ;)

i mean, really wants.

[chadamir]

i think scenarist wants to sell their encodig software... ;)

i mean, really wants.

It's possible, but they have to follow a standard like everyone else. It's more likely they have one of the few encoders that can meet the standard. The documentation in scenarist 4 is a little lacking in terms of what qualifies as compliant. There's also a huge price difference between the encoder and scenarist.

A small scale dvd place could afford scenarist, but not cinevision.

[chadamir]

http://www.dvd-logic.com/hddemuxer.htm someone posted this over on avsforum. Not sure if it will be helpful to anyone but its there.

[Trahald]

im gonna look at h264_parse source (what bond used to show the header info)to figure out the headers.. hopefully i can rig something to redo the streams.

[Trahald]

Trahald, would it be possible to just replace the x264 header with the mainconcept header.
while that actually might get the streams accepted. if info is blindly stuck in there it may misinterpret the stream and cause it to fail later at compile. or it will output a dvd that is unusable.

[chadamir]

I demuxed a ts with h264 from a broadcast and it would not take the raw (it was an incomplete file so I don't know if that'd matter). After the raw failed I muxed it into a vob, an mpv, and an mpg all of which failed. The original ts failed too.

[chadamir]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=696947 I hope that's of some interest.

Edit: and this http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=430427&SiteID=1

Edit: This guys blog is cool and has some info about why hd-dvd is better or something (he mentions picture in picture commentaries) and how to make cool menu stuff in xml. http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/ I think you might be able to pick up stuff about spec from msft blogs and that forum.

[Trahald]

this post describes some of whats missing.. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=865484#post865484 thats what i get for not keeping up with x264 threads. :rolleyes:

i tried to hex edit the type access unit info (0x09) with search and replace into my entire test file and didnt help, so it appears i need the sei (0x06) info too. the sei data is a tad more meaningful than the access unit info i dont know if i will have time to really figure it out or even if the data is recreatable from the original stream. so still hoping i find something that already exists or someone else makes it. (or support is added to x264 :) )

[chadamir]

Well do they know what to add to x264 or is it all hddvd spec that no one has access to.

[Malow]

It's possible, but they have to follow a standard like everyone else. It's more likely they have one of the few encoders that can meet the standard.

scenarist should come with a demuxing tool or accept program streams.... :(

[chadamir]

scenarist should come with a demuxing tool or accept program streams.... :(

What we actually need is for someone to come out with a tool that checks if the stream is spec (which I believe there is, not sure) and we need a tool that can properly mux that into a format that works. Mainconcept's encoder works, but you're locked in. Also, cinevision probably has a demuxing tool.

[Golgot13]

Hi all,

First, x264 can not make compliant H264 file (play fine on HD DVD player from Toshiba or X360).
There is some problem with VBV, SEI,... I test it the last summer (you can see my post this forum and x264 developper known it).

Second, there is lot of H264 software compliant with HD DVD :
- Mainconcept software (because Sonic with CineVision use Mainconcept SDK)
- Ateme software because you have access at all options
- KDDI software (KDDI company work with MemoryTech)
- Tiger AVC from Thomson (developped for HDDVD and BD)
- Fraunhofer software (all H264 options)

Third, there is only, now, PEP encoder from Microsoft which can make compliant VC1 video file.
All other solutions from Microsoft can not make compliant VC1 file.
All VC1 video file in HD DVD sell on the market was encoded with Microsoft software (may be 1/100
or 2/100 was made with Inlet tool, I'm not sure).


Last, all HD DVD on market (HD DVD with HDi function) was made with MemoryTech software
(98/100, may be 99/100). There were lot of problem with Sonic tool (correct now) to do compliant HD DVD.
To test the compliance of video file you can use DCA software.
And to test HD DVD disk compliance, you can use MemoryTech/Toshiba software.



Golgot13

[Sagittaire]

Here the compliant setting for HDDVD/BD compliant stream:
HDDVD use MPEG4 AVC HP@L4.1:
- for the profil: CABAC, 8*8dct, inloop, CQM, wpred, Pref, Bref
- for the level: Max GOP at 0.6006 sec, max adaptative bframe at 2, max reference frame at 4 for P and 3 for B, max motion vector lenght at 512 pixels, max bitrate at 29.4 Mbps, cpb at 30000 Kbits

Sonic scenarist accept only elementary stream:
- .264, .h264 ... for MPEG4 AVC
- .m2v, .m2p ... for MPEG2
- .vc1 or something like that ... for VC1

x264 produce perfect compliant stream but there are not good information in the bitstream.
Actualy you can't use x264 for HDDVD/BD multiplexing ... :-(

[chadamir]

Sagi, how much modification would be needed to make x264 compliant?

[Sagittaire]

Sagi, how much modification would be needed to make x264 compliant?

hmmm ...

1) x264 fail to respect vbv setting in multipass mode, you must use CBR mode for that.

2) For bitstream:
- HRD parameters
- EOS code
- SEI parameters

[chadamir]

So I've done some test encodes and I've noticed that playback in windvd is choppy and weird. When I mux to mp4 it's fine though (as opposed to scenarist). I wonder if it's windvd or scenarist.

Edit: Not sure if its cause it was a 24 fps source and I converted it to 29.97 or what. 25 fps h264 (reencoded) from european broadcast is perfect at 1080p.

Edit 2: 29.97 source worked fine. =/

Edit 3: Ok the original source I was talking about worked better with tomsmocomp plugin instead of anything else. I need to try a whole movie though before I can comment for sure.

[MuTeK]

elecard uses the same encoding engine, but i can't make a compilant stream
try, this prifile.

[dvdboy]

So I've done some test encodes and I've noticed that playback in windvd is choppy and weird. When I mux to mp4 it's fine though (as opposed to scenarist). I wonder if it's windvd or scenarist.

I've just encoded some content with MainConcept 2.1, and finally managed to get all the settings correct for a succesful import into Scenarist 4.01 SCA.

My footage was captured from NTSC Digi, and so encoded as 720x480 video, with an average of 6Mbps and a max of 8Mbps.

Audio was 192Kbps AC-3

Files play back fine on the PC, as elementary streams, but I get the weird choppy playback like chadamir when playing back on a Toshiba HD-A1 with latest firmware.

I've done two encodes to rule out a field dominance issue.

Bitrate is low enough that it shouldn't be causing problems...

Could Scenarist be only fully compatible with the Cinevision encoder? Could this be some kind of funky muxing issue with Scenarist?

Any other thoughts?

[chadamir]

What frame rate? If the footage is interlaced do not deinterlace it, rather encode it as interlaced.

[Susana]

What did you used to burn? In which burning mode ?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146

¿
4. Burn your HD DVD folder to a DVD recordable using Nero Burning ROM.

Technique 1 - preferred (works with Nero version 7):

(Contributed by pteittinen.)

a. Launch Nero Burning ROM and select "DVD-ROM (UDF)" on the left side of the screen (you may need to scroll down).
b. Under the "Multisession" tab, select the "No Multisession" radio button.
b. Click on the "UDF" tab.
c. In the "Options" pull-down (or the checkbox under "Advanced," depending on your version of Nero), select "Enable Xbox (TM) compatibility mode."
d. Disregard any warnings and continue.
e. Click "New."
f. Drop the HVDVD_TS folder you just created into the root directory of the compilation (column on the far left).
g. Burn the disc by clicking on the Disc/Lit Match icon at the top.

?

[dvdboy]

What frame rate? If the footage is interlaced do not deinterlace it, rather encode it as interlaced.

The footage was 29.97, interlaced so I tried both top field and bottom field dominance on the encoding. No De-Interlacing.

What did you used to burn? In which burning mode ?.

I used Nero Burning Rom > DVD VIDEO with a dummy IFO / BUP in the VIDEO_TS folder. I'm not in work now, but I will try the process you listed on tuesday.

I'm running Scenarist 4.01, and I'm wondering if there is an update because this does seem like some strange muxing bug. Does anyone know what the latest version is?

[chadamir]

I misread. I don't have a standalone. Try having scenarist make an image and then burn the image. I don't think you should be burning as dvd.

[dvdboy]

It's a 'hack' I'll grant you, but the disc is recognised as a HD DVD in the player.

Chadamir, did you manage to fix your playback issues?

[chadamir]

It's a 'hack' I'll grant you, but the disc is recognised as a HD DVD in the player.

Chadamir, did you manage to fix your playback issues?

Yea, it was the deinterlacing. Also, don't rule out the media.

[bond]

try, this prifile.anyone tried those settings? Malow?

[Sagittaire]

Here if you want a 1080p HDDVD image demo at only 6Mbps:
http://dl-3.free.fr/52616e646f6d495682d305d84f3697a3c53da2d90867da86bd9d081cf33826cf/Departed.iso

Encoding with H264 (Elecard beta) and quality is really high (more than 47 dB for OPSNR)
Audio is simple DD at 448 Kbps.
Mux by Scenarist (but not my work for muxing part ... I don't have Scenarist).

With H264 it will be possible to put compliant HDDVD structure file on simple DVD9 with very high quality ("HDDVD like quality"):
+ Video: H264 1080p at 6-8 Mbps
+ Audio: Multiple DD 5.1 at 448 Kbps or DD+ 7.1 at 640 Kbps
+ avdanced HDDVD menu, chapters, subtitles

[bond]

With H264 it will be possible to put compliant HDDVD structure file on simple DVD9 with very high quality ("HDDVD like quality"):
+ Video: H264 1080p at 6-8 Mbps
+ Audio: Multiple DD 5.1 at 448 Kbps or DD+ 7.1 at 640 Kbps
+ avdanced HDDVD menu, chapters, subtitlesthe question is whether the hddvd specs allow 1080p on dvd media or only normal D1 dvd resolutions...

[dvdboy]

I've certainly done MPEG-2 1080i for a tradeshow using Ulead's Movie Factory 5, so there should be no reason for doing H264.

Certainly, at the moment with the lack of HD DVD-R media, authoring houses are having to cut their projects up to test parts on DVD media.

[Susana]

Here if you want a 1080p HDDVD image demo at only 6Mbps:
http://dl-3.free.fr/52616e646f6d495682d305d84f3697a3c53da2d90867da86bd9d081cf33826cf/Departed.iso

Encoding with H264 (Elecard beta) and quality is really high (more than 47 dB for OPSNR)
Audio is simple DD at 448 Kbps.
Mux by Scenarist (but not my work for muxing part ... I don't have Scenarist).

With H264 it will be possible to put compliant HDDVD structure file on simple DVD9 with very high quality ("HDDVD like quality"):
+ Video: H264 1080p at 6-8 Mbps
+ Audio: Multiple DD 5.1 at 448 Kbps or DD+ 7.1 at 640 Kbps
+ avdanced HDDVD menu, chapters, subtitles

I cannot extract image files to my hard drive :confused:
file corrupt ? or it's me (downloaded twice)

Edited: I was using wrong soft, :)

[crypto]

Hi Sagittaire,

Thanks for the sample. It plays fine on the Xbox 360 Addon and on PDVD 6.5.

This is really cool. You brought us big step forward in HD-DVD authoring. Are the encoding parameters those you have posted earlier?

[Sagittaire]

Hi Sagittaire,

Thanks for the sample. It plays fine on the Xbox 360 Addon and on PDVD 6.5.

This is really cool. You brought us big step forward in HD-DVD authoring. Are the encoding parameters those you have posted earlier?

MPEG4 AVC HP@L4.1:
- for the profil: CABAC, 8*8dct, inloop, wpred, Pref
- for the level: Max GOP at 0.6006 sec (15 for PAL), max adaptative bframe at 2, max reference frame at 4 for P and 0 for B, max motion vector lenght at 512 pixels, max bitrate at 20.0 Mbps, cpb at 14745 Kbits

Highest possible quality mode for Elecard (done same metric result than x264 at max quality). I think that quality is really good for only 6 Mbps (IMO really better than HDTV quality) and this movie trailer is really difficult source.

[crypto]

I can confirm, the PQ is exceptional. And this is why it is such a breakthrough. Until now all HD-DVD 9 disks (homebrew) I saw, used mpeg-2 compression with much less quality.

[Susana]

@Sagittaire
How did you create the iso? Thanks

[McCrash]

Encoding with H264 (Elecard beta) and quality is really high (more than 47 dB for OPSNR)
Audio is simple DD at 448 Kbps.
Mux by Scenarist (but not my work for muxing part ... I don't have Scenarist).


I am sorry, can you elaborate your encoding process ? What do you mean by Elecard beta ? thx

[Malow]

anyone tried those settings? Malow?

scenaruist says:
Error : AVC profile or level or their combination are wrong.

:mad:

[CruNcher]

The only Problem i see is that those (official) HD-DVD Players don't seem to be able to Play 720p @ 25/30 fps but only @ 50/60 fps most of my own HDV cam stuff i did in 720p 25 fps automaticly becomes non playable then even if HD-DVD complaint from the VBV structure this is bad and i hope im wrong. Someone please tell me 720p @ 25/30 fps is working PLEASE and everyone a Happy new Year.

[dvdboy]

As far as I'm aware all Hardware (Toshiba) players currently only accept NTSC framerates. There will be an update for the european players some point in the new year, but no promise of an update for the US players.

HTH

[lazyn00b]

scenaruist says:
Error : AVC profile or level or their combination are wrong.

:mad:

Malow, I get this same error with anything encoded by Elecard except 720p59.940.

UPDATE: OK, so I switched to MainConcept 2.1 and am getting much better results - encodings of 480p and 1080p film sources with 3:2 pulldown applied by the encoder for a target frame rate of 29.97 are now accepted by Scenarist. I encoded to 6000 kbps (max 24000 kbps), High profile at Level 4.1, max GOP 12, 4 reference frames, 2 B-frames, and NO B-slices as references. Strangely, Mainconcept sets the VBV buffer size (bytes!) to 11,718,656; that can't be right, can it - it must really be using bits, not bytes?

[Malow]

Mainconcept sets the VBV buffer size (bytes!) to 11,718,656; that can't be right, can it - it must really be using bits, not bytes?

i think the encoder has some problems or only gui problems. someday i was getting weird values on VBV, even if i put the recomended value indicated in the encoder, it still accuse "warning".

im using the default of it for tests... pc test... dont have standalone player...

[bond]

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=928347#post928347

[cakuhnen]

These are my tests in HD Profile AVC in Mainconcept with Scenarist 4.1 Standard Content

NTSC

Frame Size: 720x480
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 or 4:3
Bitrate: 2000 max 15000 Mbps
GOP: 12 or 36
Frame Rate: 29.97 or 23.976, 24 pulldown 3:2
Audio: Dolby Digital Plus 5.1
Profile Level: 3.0 to 4.1 only
(100% compatible with Scenarist)

I'm making more test i will post the HD resolution later :)

[Golgot13]

The HD DVD don't support a bitrate less than 2.5Mbps.
You use 352x240, 352x288, 352x480, 352x576, 704x480, 704x576 and
1280x720 for frame size(may be more but I 'm sure).



Golgot13

[vsv]

These are my tests in HD Profile AVC in Mainconcept with Scenarist 4.1 Standard Content

NTSC

Frame Size: 720x480
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 or 4:3
Bitrate: 2000 max 15000 Mbps
GOP: 12 or 36
Frame Rate: 29.97 or 23.976, 24 pulldown 3:2
Audio: Dolby Digital Plus 5.1
Profile Level: 3.0 to 4.1 only
(100% compatible with Scenarist)

I'm making more test i will post the HD resolution later :)

What encoder for Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 ?

[Golgot13]

What encoder for Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 ?

Only "Dolby" company encoder, only in Mac OS :(..........

There is not now another encoder than Dolby Media Producer for DD+.
It can make all dolby file: Dobly Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD
and MLP. It support DVD, HD DVD and BluRay export (not same specifications).




Golgot13

[RBF]

Elecard Converter Studio HD-DVD PAL profile (http://rbf.nm.ru/RBF-HD) for Scenarist 4.

[chadamir]

The HD DVD don't support a bitrate less than 2.5Mbps.
You use 352x240, 352x288, 352x480, 352x576, 704x480, 704x576 and
1280x720 for frame size(may be more but I 'm sure).



Golgot13


Really? a 352x240 avc needs to be 2500? Scenarist definitely accepted lower bitrates for 720x480 stuff.

[vsv]

Elecard Converter Studio HD-DVD PAL profile (http://rbf.nm.ru/RBF-HD) for Scenarist 4.

Why Level -auto instead of 4.1 ?
In advanced settings you have used AVC preset Blue-Ray
instead of HD-DVD and motion estimation search range -255 when for HD-DVD possible is max 511.

[Golgot13]

Really? a 352x240 avc needs to be 2500?

Yes, it is a specification....
May be VC1 need 2500 for 352x240 ;) ?
A movie of 2 hours need a HD DVD of 30Go...

When the first HD DVD in H264 on DVD disc in Europe ?




Golgot13