Wich codec does You use for 5.1 encoding? [Archive]

Malow

1st March 2006, 18:05

besweet+kurtnoise plugin+winamp ct dll
using normalize 92% + dialog normalization

im using this because the "overflow" levels in besweet not happen anymore. (strong spikes in audio)

and waiting for implementing more than 128kbps in encoding (for 5.1) like yours dimzon aacplus encoder.. ;)

encoding for dvd backup (matroska, 2 audios, subs, xcd..) using computer/DLP projector/5.1 setup for viewing..

shon3i

1st March 2006, 18:18

and waiting for implementing more than 128kbps in encoding (for 5.1) like yours dimzon aacplus encoderThats right

dimzon

1st March 2006, 18:32

Thats right
I can provide modified BeSweet plugin if you really need it ;)

shon3i

1st March 2006, 18:45

Yes i need. Thanx

dimzon

1st March 2006, 19:02

Yes i need. Thanx
Shit, my corporate firewall blocks download of http://kurtnoise.free.fr/BeLight/WA_aacPlus-2.1_src.zip
and I have noc C++ compiler at home. So I need to download it @ home then recompile at work...
So need to wait, sorry

SeeMoreDigital

1st March 2006, 19:09

I used to use Nero's AAC-LC/HE codec in-conjunction with Foobar2000.... but since the release of (their bloated) Nero7 package, I have abstained from using/installing any of Nero's products!

So, I would love to see more 6Ch AAC-LC and HE encoders!

I guess most people's basic requirements would be to have a "single windowed" GUI that can accept 6Ch AC3 streams (and 6Ch WAV's) and convert them 6Ch AAC.....

Well... that would be my dream requirement ;)

Cheers

shon3i

1st March 2006, 19:09

I try compile myself. This is Visual Studio C++ 6.0 source i am right. Or i send you this file via email

shon3i

1st March 2006, 19:11

@SeeMoreDigital did you encode to 6ch aac file via nero 6/7 encoder and what you think about quality compared to Coding Tehnologies

dimzon

1st March 2006, 19:15

I guess most people's basic requirements would be to have a "single windowed" GUI that can accept 6Ch AC3 streams (and 6Ch WAV's) and convert them 6Ch AAC.....
BeHappy
MeGUI
BeLight

Rockaria

1st March 2006, 20:07

I using Coding Tehnologies from lastest Winamp 5.2. Bitrate depend of movie but never under 96kbs and never above 128. I think is range for 5.1 encoding 96-128 in BeLight/BeHappy. For most encodings is 112kbs, using mpeg4 bitstream and PreGain option to incarase Volume.
The --cbr option of the encoder version you're using actually seems to be vbr at last, like the wimamp5 bundled 6ch aac sample.
Also the --chmode is not handled explicitly, only the --high option yields correct stereo outputs for me ATM.
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=788047&postcount=57
The +PS over the HE-AAC has the advantage of reducing the bit rate from 64k to 48k optimum on stereo, 164kbps to 128k on 6ch clips. Quality-wise, I honestly couldn't find any noticeable difference between CT & Nero versions on their optimum bit rates.

I am shifting to DPL II downmix(with my adjusted matrix) for maximum compatibility(portability) & minimum fidelity loss, because of my frequent travels. I feel it over 80% of surrounds seperations with normal music @ similar or better fidelity.
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=787789&postcount=149
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=788534&postcount=84

SeeMoreDigital

1st March 2006, 20:07

@SeeMoreDigital did you encode to 6ch aac file via nero 6/7 encoder and what you think about quality compared to Coding TehnologiesIf you're referring to Coding Technologies 6Ch MP3 codec then no.... I need to generate encodes with 6Ch audio streams that I can decode via a stand-alone player and forward to a DSS amplifier ;)

BeHappy
MeGUI
BeLightI was of the understanding these are all AVISynth based tools. Or have things changed?

I'm also sorry to say I'm unfamiliar with the AAC encoder filters any of the above mentioned tools use to generate 6Ch AAC streams :confused:

Cheers

nickolasemp

1st March 2006, 20:17

I'm using Belight...
Codec:Winamp's aacplus encoder
Bitrate:Always 128kbps with pregain. I don't want to lose any quality that can be given from the encoder. Even the 2 bytes can make the difference in soyund quality. Especially if the movie is a Star Wars' episode..!

shon3i

1st March 2006, 20:51

The --cbr option of the encoder version you're using actually seems to be vbr at last, like the wimamp5 bundled 6ch aac sample.
Also the --chmode is not handled explicitly, only the --high option yields correct stereo outputs for me ATM.
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=788047&postcount=57
The +PS over the HE-AAC has the advantage of reducing the bit rate from 64k to 48k optimum on stereo, 164kbps to 128k on 6ch clips. Quality-wise, I honestly couldn't find any noticeable difference between CT & Nero versions on their optimum bit rates.

I am shifting to DPL II downmix(with my adjusted matrix) for maximum compatibility(portability) & minimum fidelity loss, because of my frequent travels. I feel it over 80% of surrounds seperations with normal music @ similar or better fidelity.
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=787789&postcount=149
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=788534&postcount=84
Rockaria did you told me that nero 6/7 is same as CT in 6ch encoding. I dont think that. Nero 7 is terrible in quality. Nero 7 quality is same like mp3 @ <48kbs have nasty artifacts in sounds but only in 6ch encodes. Nero 6 is better but he something like center chanel is broken and some echo shows. Both are terrible. CT is good for every choice and i didn't hear any artifacts in ct encodings with 6ch in 96-128kbs range. Using Stereo,DPL,DPLII is same, btw winamp demo.aac is not vbr. is cbr. I don't know were you see that is vbr

Rockaria

1st March 2006, 22:17

Rockaria did you told me that nero 6/7 is same as CT in 6ch encoding. I dont think that. Nero 7 is terrible in quality. Nero 7 quality is same like mp3 @ <48kbs have nasty artifacts in sounds but only in 6ch encodes. Nero 6 is better but he something like center chanel is broken and some echo shows. Both are terrible. CT is good for every choice and i didn't hear any artifacts in ct encodings with 6ch in 96-128kbs range. Using Stereo,DPL,DPLII is same, btw winamp demo.aac is not vbr. is cbr. Pls, read again. I mentioned at their optimum bit rates(CT has PS option over Nero HE VBR, ATM).
The center is not broken to me. Maybe you need to test several versions of different nero dlls(also v6 & v7 are developped independantly, i don't trust v7 yet)
BTW, were you able to encode aac stereo with what version of the encoder and with which options?

I don't know were you see that is vbr
Kaje - Hey Buddy Aacplus Surround.aac (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=746885&postcount=83) is the original vbr aac from the initial version of winamp 5.x bundle.

shon3i

1st March 2006, 23:12

I tested Nero 6 from Nero 6.6.0.16 and from Nero 7.1.0.2-7.0.5.4 and lastes binary from Ivan Dimkovic somewhere found on HydrogenAudio forums. Please listen this files http://rapidshare.de/files/14365315/aac.rar.html. Nero 7 looks terible on 2.0 speakers and headphones and on 5.1 system litle different. Nero 6 on 2.0 and headphone when some start to talk voice has some echo or double voice, on 5.1 sistem i same. CT is perfect.

is the original vbr aac from the initial version of winamp 5.x bundle.Maybe i have only demo.aac.

I mentioned at their optimum bit rates(CT has PS option over Nero HE VBR, ATM).I understand you what is optimal bitrate. Normaly nero6/7/ct is same at 48kbs and other bitrates.

were you able to encode aac stereo with what version of the encoder and with which options? I mean for decoding 5.1 audio to 2.0 speakers excatly downsampling. When i use Stereo,DPL,DPLII modes in ffdshow audio decoder Nero6/7 looks terible and ct is same.

Rockaria

1st March 2006, 23:56

I downloaded and listened to the mp4s from other thread.
The second(v6) has slight sync problems between the channels, which I have never experienced in my environment.
The v7 and CT were almost identical(maybe my bad ears) on my 5.1ch headphone, but still comparing aacplus v1 & v2 @48k is kinda little sense to me.

is the original vbr aac from the initial version of winamp 5.x bundle.
Maybe i have only demo.aac.

AFAIK, Winamp free versions include three types : light, full, bundle

I mentioned at their optimum bit rates(CT has PS option over Nero HE VBR, ATM).

I understand you what is optimal bitrate. Normaly nero6/7/ct is same at 48kbs and other bitrates.

The diagram (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=702809&postcount=11) shows it clearly : aavplus v1 + ps = aacplus v2, aacplus v1 == nero he(stereo optimal @ 64k)

I mean for decoding 5.1 audio to 2.0 speakers excatly downsampling. When i use Stereo,DPL,DPLII modes in ffdshow audio decoder Nero6/7 looks terible and ct is same.
Precisely speaking, the DPL & DPL II mixer options are downmix encoding.
BTW, the 'terrible' sounds to me 0~1 when 'the same' as 5 from 5(perfect fidelity). ;)

shon3i

2nd March 2006, 00:07

The second(v6) has slight sync problems between the channels, which I have never experienced in my environment. What you use to encode with nero 6 encoder. I tryed with BeLight/Behappy/Megui it's same

AFAIK, Winamp free versions include three types : light, full, bundle i have some pro downloaded form winamp forums but is full version.

The v7 and CT were almost identical(maybe my bad ears) on my 5.1ch headphone, but still comparing aacplus v1 & v2 @48k is kinda little sense to me.
But there is difference. PS is better. But Nero7 is much worse than CT. Nero 7 to me sounds like mp3 @ 48kbs. In silent scens starting big artifacts.

@Rokaria what you prefer Nero 6/7 or CT, How you encode sound for films. Thanx

Rockaria

2nd March 2006, 00:23

I use naac.exe cli for foobar2k and avisynth environment(linked above).
Also the foo_naac.dll plugin did not make any troubles to me except that it does not allow the 'forced he-vbr'.

Nero he is equivalent to aacplus v1(aac+SBR) which does not have PS option. Upto around 48k(stereo) & 128k(6ch) aacplus v2 seems to be the best option(economic).

shon3i

2nd March 2006, 00:29

Rockaria

2nd March 2006, 01:14

You need 'foobar2k v0.83 special' to decode dts & ac3.
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?act=SF&s=&f=28

The the 1st post of my second last link contains all the related links for avisynth environment including naac.

kotrtim

2nd March 2006, 03:54

Nero 7 He-AAC streaming

shon3i

2nd March 2006, 12:17

Rockaria

2nd March 2006, 16:20

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/foobar2000/
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/files/naac.zip

shon3i

2nd March 2006, 16:38

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/foobar2000/
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/files/naac.zip
Thanks Man

shon3i

3rd March 2006, 13:23

@Rokaria i tested foo_naac.dll via foobar and i get same result like Belight/BeHappy/MeGUI

Rockaria

3rd March 2006, 14:09

@Rokaria i tested foo_naac.dll via foobar and i get same result like Belight/BeHappy/MeGUI
I guess all the 3rd party encoders are using similar cli/dll modules utilizing nero's shared encoder/decoder dlls(aac.dll, aacEnc32.dll).
So unless the encoders are enabling any internal DSPs I believe the results would be pretty much identical.

Anyway, the aacPlus v2 multichannel encoding seems not using the PS option(parametric Stereo routine). So the ideal bitrate for multichannel encoding for any HE encoders(CT/NERO/...) would still be around (upto) 160(64*2.5)kbps.

shon3i

3rd March 2006, 14:25

So unless the encoders are enabling any internal DSPs I believe the results would be pretty much identical.
I am not using any dsp in foobar. I am doing test with 112kbs but see that in nero can be choosed HE profile in 128kbs. Why.

Anyway, the aacPlus v2 multichannel encoding seems not using the PS option(parametric Stereo routine). So the ideal bitrate for multichannel encoding for any HE encoders(CT/NERO/...) would still be around (upto) 160(64*2.5)kbps.
Yes but 96-128 can produce a good quality.

Rockaria

3rd March 2006, 14:42

I am not using any dsp in foobar. I am doing test with 112kbs but see that in nero can be choosed HE profile in 128kbs. Why.

Yes but 96-128 can produce a good quality.
The listening perception is very much subjective. So if the bit rate for your preferred codec suits your needs, go for it.

I am just trying to generalize the optimal bit rates based on the objective point of views through the given facts and experiences.

I really don't know why your nero he (vbr) 112/128kbps v6 result has that artefacts, which I couldn't reproduce at all in my pc environment...

shon3i

3rd March 2006, 15:02

I really don't know why your nero he (vbr) 112/128kbps v6 result has that artefacts, which I couldn't reproduce at all in my pc environment... I don't know. I aslo tested on my friend pc and always get same. I am not using vbr. Always use cbr. I think nero6 have only problems when downsampled to stereo. On 5.1 speakers that artefacts is not much terrible.

Rockaria

3rd March 2006, 15:10

I am not using vbr. Always use cbr.
My tests in the past with Nero He CBR below 100kbps were terrible, since when I never use CBR at all. I use ABR if VBR is not available...

shon3i

3rd March 2006, 15:19

My tests in the past with Nero He CBR below 100kbps were terrible, since when I never use CBR at all. I use ABR if VBR is not available...
That's very interesting i never use vbr mode in nero6/7 in 6ch encode and that can be explanation vhy is so terrible. But CT always use cbr. But i doing test's in 96-128kbs and aslo in nero @ 128kbs can select HE profile.

Rockaria

3rd March 2006, 15:29

That's very interesting i never use vbr mode in nero6/7 in 6ch encode.Why?
But CT always use cbr. Are you sure? It seemed to me VBR(or ABR at least) as I said before.
Maybe it's your encoder problem if it supports only CBR.
But i doing test's in 96-128kbs and aslo in nero @ 128kbs can select HE profile.I know you can select the 128 he CBR. But I am sure nobody can say it's optimal for 6ch encoding.

shon3i

3rd March 2006, 15:34

WhyBeacouse CT is cbr and i compare this three codecs with same options.

Are you sure? It seemed to me VBR(or ABR at least) as I said before.
Maybe it's your encoder problem if it supports only CBR.
I don't know what is catch in CT encoder but maybe is vbr/abr

Rockaria

3rd March 2006, 15:52

I don't know what is catch in CT encoder Based on the CT aacPlus v1/v2 reference encoder library(dll), they buids their own versions of encoders(exe) and possibly own libs(dll) depending on the understandings and needs. I hope this clear it out.

shon3i

3rd March 2006, 19:54

I tryed vbr modes in both Nero 6/7 streaming 100-120kbs and quality is now very good with booth encoder but i get big oversize. The file can't be bigger than 100mb and get 170mb.

Rockaria

3rd March 2006, 20:23

Then you can try the nero aac he vbr DPL II encoded(with the adjusted matrix) 2ch @ around 64kbps as I mentioned before.

shon3i

3rd March 2006, 20:44

I newer get problems with stereo or DPLII encodes. Only with 6ch.

Rockaria

3rd March 2006, 21:22

I newer get problems with stereo or DPLII encodes. Only with 6ch. Who said you have problems with 2ch mode encoding?:confused:
In order to reduce the 170mb to 100mb, I guess you must reduce the bit rate to around 64kbps, try 6ch aac-he/ps vbr/cbr with whatever encoder, if you really want to.

shon3i

3rd March 2006, 22:18

Who said you have problems with 2ch mode encoding?You toold me to use DPLII matrix.

In order to reduce the 170mb to 100mb, I guess you must reduce the bit rate to around 64kbps, try 6ch aac-he/ps vbr/cbr with whatever encoder, if you really want to. Yes i want,I try that later but if i put around 64 how i know wich quality is used. That is vb-tape it is

Rockaria

4th March 2006, 02:01

Yesi wantI tryi put i know
That is vb-tape it is
:confused: :confused: :confused: ... Instead,Who said you have problems with 2ch mode encoding?
In order to reduce the 170mb to 100mb, I guess you must reduce the bit rate to around 64kbps... & still having the DPL II's 80~95% of 6ch seperations(surrounds) & decent he vbr quality...;)

shon3i

4th March 2006, 12:22

@Rockaria can you explain me where i can use DPLII matrix in 6ch encode and wich nero vbr present to use to be around 96kbs but without oversize

Rockaria

4th March 2006, 13:17

@Rockaria can you explain me where i can use DPLII matrix in 6ch encode and wich nero vbr present to use to be around 96kbs but without oversize
The problem I've been feeling is that you are repetedly assuming(based on your knowledge or pursue) what I didn't say.:scared:
The DPL II is dolby's another format imbeding 6ch signals to some efficient 2ch formats, where includes the aac-he as a carrier or container.
The DPL II aac-he decoded to DPL II pcm(2ch) in the pc players will be decoded again(not the perfect reconstruction though) to 6ch pcm in the external dpl II decoder. If the receiver has the aac decoder together, you don't need the pc player as a perprocessor(aac decoding).
..I am shifting to DPL II downmix(with my adjusted matrix) for maximum compatibility(portability) & minimum fidelity loss, because of my frequent travels. I feel it over 80% of surrounds seperations with normal music @ similar or better fidelity.
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=787789&postcount=149
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=788534&postcount=84
The first link contains how to encode DPL II(2ch) aac-he vbr(with cli avisynth environment which is also including the gui tools you mentioned) @ 64kbps or whatever he-vbr bit rate you want. check [EDIT]
The second link contains some background talks and test results.

BTW, the Audio FAQ sticky thread still contains lots of information for me to learn before any sharing.;)

[edit Mar 08 2006] The higher freq of the spectrum used for SBR will be reconstructed mixed. So the lower bit rate(less than 64k) will lose the some spatial data of high freq, although not entirely broken rear like PS. For this reason, he vbr 64~96kbps is suggested for DPL II encoding, or other more efficient codecs @ lower bit rate like vorbis.

shon3i

4th March 2006, 13:43

Ok i realize that but this is not original 6ch. btw nevermind what you think about aud-x codec and his surround.

Rockaria

4th March 2006, 14:10

Ok i realize that but this is not original 6ch. It is true. But the correct expression is ' it's not a discrete 6ch encoding'.
btw nevermind what you think about aud-x codec and his surround.Did you really need to express this another irrelevant assumption?:confused:
I am not asking you (absolute no need) to do anything, It's you who understands and decides and whom I have been trying to help.

I concluded, I can not help you at all for your pursue to reduce the 170mb(aac he vbr 128kbps ) to 100mb with whatever 6ch aac bit rate without degradating the fidelity significantly, may be 10 years later it would be possible.

Btw, my major concern about the aud-x was the two-way compatibility of the ds filter. It should be the end-user who controls the use.

shon3i

4th March 2006, 14:52

It is true. But the correct expression is ' it's not a discrete 6ch encoding'.
I now finished encoding with DPLII and i amazing with quality and pseudo 6ch

may be 10 years later it would be possible.
Maybe :-)

I concluded, I can not help you at all for your pursue to reduce the 170mb(aac he vbr 128kbps ) to 100mb Yes you help me. I am now using DPLII instead real 6ch and i get realy 100mb

It's you who understands and decides and whom I have been trying to help.
Thanks for all help and i am realy happy with CT 6ch encodings and my general interests is to view why is nero6/7 so terrible with real 6ch encoding

FFWD

4th March 2006, 18:42

Nero Recode 7.0's 5.1 High Efficieny (HE) Nero Digital Audio 128 kbit/s 48000 Hz

Skelsgard

5th March 2006, 05:46

Vegas AC3 Encoder - 448kbps 48kHz with Dolby EX flags on for SEX decoding (to be read as Surround EX :D ). Full DVD compliant.
Nero HE-AAC VBR Streaming 5.1 when space is a luxury.

Just wait till i get my hands on the DTS Series Encoders for DTS-ES. But if AAC decoders were able to play >7ch (6.1 or 7.1) streams, won´t even need to use EX/ES.