Sony is pissing me off! [Archive]

Revgen

11th November 2005, 06:26

In light of the recent news that the PS3 might employ DRM technology on it's games, I definately am not going to buy it if it does.

It amazes me that companies are willing to lose customers by being so arrogant to their interests. I'm not exactly surprised though, selling pre-owned games has been illegal in Japan for awhile now, thanks to Sony's influence with Japanese politicians.

I'm also seriously considering boycotting all Sony merchandise if more incidents like the rootkit scandal continue.

EDIT

More shocking statements (http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2005/11/sony_exec_warne.html) from Sony Executives in a blog by Brian Krebs of the Washington Post.

Sony CEO Howard Stringer mentioned this back in March 2001 about the "Naptster" controversy.

“Right now it would be possible for us, and I’ve often thought it would cheer me up to do it, you could dispatch a virus to anybody whose files contain us or Columbia records, and make them listen to four hours of Yanni ... but in the end we’re going to have to get serious about encryption and digital-rights management and watermarking.”

Another Sony executive was interviewed last friday on NPR about the rootkit scandal and exclaimed,

"Most people, I think, don’t even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"

Doom9

11th November 2005, 08:26

I was kinda going to put that in a review I'm planning of the PSP (with focus on its video capabilities), but here's a preview: it's no wonder Sony had to fire 10'000 people. They've developed from a company looking after their customers and making useful products like MiniDisc players (which were sold and advertised as a portable add-on to CD players, and due to SCMS were not that terribly customer unfriendly when it comes to copy management), to a company artificially cripping their products (PSP and custom made video as an example, releasing CDs that made even one generation of copy (to your Sony MiniDisc player for instance) impossible because they set the SCMS no copy flag from he getgo in their albums released in the last two years) and trying to push their own formats against the market standard (digital music players that only played ATRAC3). If I were a shareholder, I'd worry a bit more about that negative trackrecord than copy protection mechanisms which further alienate consumers.

Even in this day an age, the good old "customer is king" mantra still applies and Sony is a prime example of what happens if you go into the other direction.

dani82

11th November 2005, 09:41

i'll still get one, most likely it's going be off ebay around '09, just hope modchip aren't outlaw worldwide by then

DAvenger

11th November 2005, 10:22

charleski

11th November 2005, 13:46

Sony is not a happy company, according to Bloomberg Asia (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=aaQZxTCJ4A6g) - looks like they'll be posting their first loss in 11 years.

Now that even the technologically-challenged have heard (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/174096756/m/617001826731/r/913003826731#913003826731) about Sony's disregard for their customers I expect the situation will only get worse.

Sirber

11th November 2005, 14:21

I might get an xbox360 to replace my PS2 in few years. I don't like the "batman style" controllers :D

feedback

11th November 2005, 15:15

Well, the truth is that most people don't give a shit. Sony would be stupid to pass the opportunity to make more $$$. Sure, it could backfire but you really sure few people boycotting Sony products would take the company down? :)
That is actually a pragmatic view IMO. The truth is unless there is a groundswell of Anti-Sony sentiment, with consumers boycotting ALL Sony products, because of Sony's misdeeds, they have no reason to change a thing.

The only thing they understand is the bottom line and unless we as a group at doom9, among many others, boycott their products nothing is going to change.

I have a Sony DCR-HC40 DV camera that I need to replace soon, as a personal statement from me I will now no longer consider a Sony product as a replacement.

DAvenger is right most people don't care IMO. They rant but if they see a new product or movie that is a must have they have no compunction in not denying themselves that product.

The community will have to make Sony bleed Green money before they take notice.
The only reason the rootkit problem they now have is getting noticed is because it has the potential to cost them some serious money in lawsuits.

Lastly, you must vote with your feet and walk away from ALL Sony products to ever make a lasting impression on them.

If all doom9 members made just two alternative purchases, in other words, buying some other manufacturers product instead of a Sony product that would hit them where it hurts...in the pocketbook.

This all just my opinion.

Regards,:)

P.S. This Link Here (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/11/secfocus_sony_analysis/) is quite entertaining.:)

charleski

11th November 2005, 15:49

As I pointed out above, Sony is already bleeding 'Green Money' (though I think the yen is sort of purple-green), so they're particularly vulnerable to concerted consumer action at the moment.

feedback

11th November 2005, 15:58

As I pointed out above, Sony is already bleeding 'Green Money' (though I think the yen is sort of purple-green), so they're particularly vulnerable to concerted consumer action at the moment.
concerted consumer action is the key as you noted.

I posted a link above called "Sony BMG faces digital-rights seige" that is interesting as things are escalating.

unskinnyboy

11th November 2005, 16:53

If you type in 'sony rootkit' into Google, you get 4,190,000 hits.
If you type in 'music piracy into Google, you get 8,200,000 hits.

Not bad for a 2-week old screw-up compared to the phenomenon they are trying to combat with it, lol.

Ron70

11th November 2005, 22:57

According to Computer Associates, the Sony software makes itself a default media player on a computer after it is installed. The software then reports back the user's Internet address and identifies which CDs are played on that computer. Intentionally or not, the software also seems to damage a computer's ability to "rip" clean copies of MP3s from non-copy protected CDs, the security company said.

"It will effectively insert pseudo-random noise into a file so that it becomes less listenable," said Sam Curry, a Computer Associates vice president. "What's disturbing about this is the lack of notice, the lack of consent, and the lack of an easy removal tool."

charleski

12th November 2005, 15:00

In case you haven't read it already, Sony has now suspended (http://blog.sonymusic.com/sonybmg/archives/xcp.html) use of the 'XCP' rootkit technology devised by First4Internet.

shevegen

12th November 2005, 16:42

Money fighting people, sony corporation isnt just any worse than others. However the blunt statement from that Sony guy really amazed me. He basically tells you that you are screwed now. I cant see it anymore clear that a considerable amount of viruses and trojans are exactly used by companies on purpose.
I wonder that they dont really get punished for this, they should be held responsible for creating "faulty" software like how Sony did.

If intellectual property becomes such a big oooh, I wonder why your right to keep YOUR information is crippled happily with biochips (next stage will be RFLP-DNA lab-on-chips on passports forced on all) and much more.

SeeMoreDigital

12th November 2005, 17:19

Sony BMG Statement:

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5502/sonybmgstatement7rh.jpg

Koti

12th November 2005, 18:20

The only way Sony is gonna make this right is by recalling, compensating and pulling all effected CD's from the consumer market.
That's not to much to ask for using the public to beta test DRM is it ;)

charleski

12th November 2005, 18:34

The rootkit remained undetected for over 6 months. Sony got away with this stunt for a long time and it only appeared because a protected CD was played by someone with a great deal of knowlege of Windows kernel routines. Unless Sony and First4Internet are made to pay for their arrogant and intrusive attitude, I suspect they will just take home the message that they can get away with stunts like this for a long time before people discover it.

Mr. Monte

12th November 2005, 20:02

Too bad Justice isn't blind now. Money talks...justice walks

charleski

12th November 2005, 20:29

The message here is not that we are powerless against a large Japanese corporation, it's that we need to act effectively to ensure that our rights are not further infringed. While a certain amount of cynicism is justified, it ultimately leads nowhere.

Write to your law-makers. Don't buy Sony products (of whatever kind: electronics, music, movies). Spread the word.

Don't get mad, get even.

Sony is vulnerable. It's losing money and much of its future depends on the success of the PS3 and Blu-Ray.

dragongodz

13th November 2005, 02:05

hmm is it me or is this thread getting a bit rant'ish ? :D

lets get something straight first off. this is NOT something that is confined to just sony, far from it. if you read in the other sony thread you will see i mention where emi have stated they dont use rootkit tech but also let slip they have been trialing 3 other types of protection. so if anyone thinks just boycotting sony will make all right in the world they are off with the fairies. ;)

now sony has probably pushed harder/faster with these and is deservedly getting a heap of flack for it. lets just hope it sends a nice clear message to other companies aswell. wont hold my breath on that though.

just to add a little fuel to the fire we also have this little revelation
http://dewinter.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=215

as you can read,at the bottom of that page, sony have yet to reply back about it. not surprising really. i emailed first4internet last week about the magic lists in the installer etc that contains programs like DVDx ,which has nothing to do with audio cds, and have got no reply from them either. i think if i emailed sony i would get the same response too, none.

Revgen

13th November 2005, 06:59

hmm is it me or is this thread getting a bit rant'ish ?

It's just you. :p

Seriously though, I don't consider this a rant at all. I take it personal when I pay for a product with my own money and find out that it maliciously affects my equipment. This is a serious matter that IMHO deserves an honest discussion.

so if anyone thinks just boycotting sony will make all right in the world they are off with the fairies. ;)

I don't believe that boycotting Sony will make everything right in the world.

When I mentioned the possibility of boycotting Sony it was more of a personal statement. I'm just not interested in putting my money into a company that considers themselves holier than me. I wasn't trying to spark a revolution.

Feedback and Charleski did that for me :)

charleski

13th November 2005, 10:41

@dragongodz: Advice to people to avoid cynicism is not a rant

MACC

13th November 2005, 17:45

Regarding DRM spyware and SONY

http://dewinter.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=215.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004144.php
Are you infected with Sonys rootkit.

Sirber

13th November 2005, 19:28

Concerning Sony EULA...

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004145.php

Mug Funky

14th November 2005, 04:00

boycotting sony is an intersting prospect... but unrealistic.

you'd have to stop playing CDs entirely as sony/philips developed them.

you'd have to give up your digital connections between DVD players and amps (and also AES/EBU if you're an audio-pro) because sony/philips developed that.

a lot of us would have to ditch our mobile phones (not a big deal for me).

i'd have to quit work... every direction i look here there's something made by sony that i can't do without. in particular the digibeta decks and all tapes that go in them, plus monitoring TVs and DV equipment.

although, i really dislike sony's policies and have for a long time. if only sony didn't have a monopoly on crucial broadcast equipment... does anyone know if JVC or some other company make DBcam decks?

Revgen

14th November 2005, 04:48

@ Mug Funky

Am I correct in assuming that you live in Australia?

The market there may be smaller than it is here in America and boycotting Sony may indeed be uphill battle.

The NTSC consumer and professional market probably offers more choice.

Panasonic (http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=35308) for instance makes DV equipment and MiniDV Cameras to go with them.

I took a one semester course in broadcasting at my local community college and we used Panasonic Cameras and JVC VTR's. The only thing that was made by Sony was the Trinatron studio monitors.

Mug Funky

14th November 2005, 05:31

DV != digibeta, unfortunately. DV50 comes close, but it's still only 50mbps rather than 90mbps.

i've yet to see a digibeta deck made by anyone other than sony, more's the pity, because sony could make them a little better. one of the decks here has a nasty habit of not stopping when re-winding long tapes. it'll just keep pulling at it until it snaps. also, digibeta has horrible error resilience. the slightest ridge in the tape spool will turn into a "splat" of green and pink crap-blocks that lasts several frames.

Revgen

14th November 2005, 22:49

DV50 is used by CBS News for their studio broadcasts. If it's good enough for CBS why wouldn't it be good enough for what you do?

Look here (http://www.dvcentral.org/DV-Beta.html) for more info.

In other news, it looks like I'm not the only one (http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,69559,00.html?tw=rss.TOP) thinking about it.

Elias

15th November 2005, 00:43

Mug Funky

15th November 2005, 05:13

DV50 is used by CBS News for their studio broadcasts. If it's good enough for CBS why wouldn't it be good enough for what you do?

because there's around AUD$ 150000 worth of digibeta deck here that'd be a shame to stop using... that and the majority of our masters come in digibeta (we get DV as well, and often hard disks too).

Joe Fenton

15th November 2005, 05:29

Sony is pissing a lot of people off at the moment. Not only is this DRM CD issue backfiring every day, they now have that new DRM for not being able to play used games. The question is: which company is worst now: Sony or Microsoft?

Well, the "used game" DRM is just under consideration. It hasn't been added to anything - yet. Sony does have some DRM laden discs, but they are all from the media division (CDs and DVDs). I am not aware of Sony abusing its power to steal from other companies and drive competitors out of business, so MS still leads the pack.

Considering Sony is a leading advocate of linux and plans to ship it with the PS3, I'd say we're looking at mixed signals from different divisions of Sony. Remember that Sony is not one big company, it's a bunch of losely affiliated divisions that don't depend on each other to do business. While MS uses Windows and Office to keep XBox afloat, the PS2/PSP/PS3 has to live or die on its own merits.

In fact, according to the last financial report from Sony, the Playstation division is one of the few that made a good profit last year. The TV division was a big loss because Sony discontinued their CRTs, while the LCDs plummeted in price due to fierce competition.

Elias

15th November 2005, 10:26

I know that Sony really had not anything to do with this latest CD rootkit story, because that was all due to Sony BGM, which is not the same company after all.

dragongodz

15th November 2005, 10:54

Well, the "used game" DRM is just under consideration.
even if implamented i would not expect it to go well here in Australia. mod chips have been found to be legal, in a court of law, here so people can play games from other countries. i would expect a similar situation would happen with that type of DRM aswell.

also lets be realistic for just 1 second. the whole "dont buy sony and make them hurt" just will not work unless the average joe does it aswell. while the normal public keeps buying then a tiny group boycotting them means nothing. of far more damage and more concern for them is bad worldwide press, which they are getting, and legal action, again which they are getting. THOSE are the reasons sony has done a backflip and not because some people in the know decided to boycott them.

Wilbert

15th November 2005, 12:01

Some updates on the rootkit, Lame and LGPL. I guess it's still not certain if Sony violated the LGPL:

http://www.the-interweb.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/51-Is-Sony-in-violation-of-the-LGPL.html

The GO.EXE doesn't appear to contain LAME code even though it has been linked against it, however at least ECDPlayerControl.ocx on the CD (packed in XCP.DAT, installed along DRM) does contain code from LAME. It also uses Id3lib and mpglib, without attribution or any licenses shipped along. I spotted bladeenc dll there as well.

Check the bottom of my research page for info, http://hack.fi/~muzzy/sony-drm/ [hack.fi]
There's not much there at the moment but I'll be adding information as soon as everything can be properly confirmed and evidence gathered.
from slashdot (http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=168346&cid=14033949).

It seems that Sony is indeed violating (http://www.the-interweb.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/52-Is-Sony-in-violation-of-the-LGPL-Part-II.html) the LGPL.

--------------------

SONY and a different drm scheme (MediaMax):

But before the agreement appears, MediaMax installs around a dozen files that consume more than 12 MB on the hard disk. ...These files remain installed even if you decline the agreement. One of them, a kernel-level driver with the cryptic name “sbcphid”, is both installed and launched. This component is the heart of the copy protection system. When it is running, it attempts to block CD ripping and copying applications from reading the audio tracks on SunnComm-protected discs. MediaMax refrains from making one final change until after you accept the license—it doesn’t set the driver to automatically run again every time Windows starts. Nevertheless, the code keeps running until the computer is restarted and remains on the hard disk indefinitely, even if the agreement is declined.

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20051115001431715

Doom9

15th November 2005, 12:19

mod chips have been found to be legal, in a court of law, here so people can play games from other countries. i would expect a similar situation would happen with that type of DRM aswell.You're forgetting that once the US-Australia free trade agreement goes into affect, all those things become illegal. Long live free trade...

dragongodz

15th November 2005, 15:29

no i am not. the FTA doesnt mean we automatically adopt all u.s. laws. yes we are expected to accept u.s. patents and copyrights etc but even then not for the same period of time. going from memory the u.s. is something like death+90 years while with the FTA the aus part extends ours to death+70. i will look up it up later to confirm those, its late and i am off to bed shortly so cant right now.

it is a given that u.s. companies will have more power to try and ramrod their spurious patents and copyrights down our throats. however country locking, and i suspect single device locking, is a different thing and if they try to enforce that here could be challenged in court as anti-competative. it is however very up in the air at the moment so really we will just have to wait and see who tries to do what.

rushin_911

16th November 2005, 01:16

From the Inquirer:

Sony DRM infection removal vulnerability uncovered (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=27714)

-Click on the quote to get to the page

Shows how Sony really gives a damn about its costumers :p

Neo Neko

16th November 2005, 01:34

Lastly, you must vote with your feet and walk away from ALL Sony products to ever make a lasting impression on them.

I would like to disagree on that point. Walking away from all their products does not send them specific messages. A better tactic is to walk away from only offending products. Sure walking away from everything would protect the user more. But most likely at to high a cost. What message would it send to the company if sales of all non-DRM laden products were normal and even increasing. While DRM laden products were performing abysmally? That is a pretty specific message. Just walking away would send them into a litigeous pannic state. Reward them when they do right. But smack em on the nose when they do wrong.

I still plan on buying a PS3 at this point though. As XBOX has always been off limits due to my large scale boycott of Microsoft. When sony gets to behaving the same as Microsoft as a whole then I will consider wider boycott. Unfortunatly that would just leave my with the Nintendo Revolution which so far sounds anything but revolutionary. :p

Elias

16th November 2005, 01:40

Neo Neko, I cannot agree more with you. Well put!

adam

16th November 2005, 05:45

going from memory the u.s. is something like death+90 years while with the FTA the aus part extends ours to death+70.

Its the same in the US, though we have a slightly less morbid description. Its life + 70 years. But same difference.

dragongodz

16th November 2005, 07:08

though we have a slightly less morbid description
you knew what i meant though. :D

Its life + 70 years. But same difference.
not quite. i should have been more explicit. its true U.S. for author copyright is life + 70 aswell however it is not for corporation copyright. for that its life + 95. since i would think the majority of tv and movies etc are under corporate copyright this makes things interesting. :)
maybe this will explain better than i can.

taken from http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:BT17dh0tTCEJ:www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/CIB/2004-05/05cib03.pdf&hl=en
the change mentioned at the start is the life + 70 change.
They have also argued that even with this change, Australian law on the duration of copyright will not be harmonised with that of the United States, which provides a variety of different rules for calculating duration. The most significant difference is that where copyright is authored by a corporation (as the employer of the actual author), copyright lasts for 95 years from the date of publication or 120 years from the creation of the material. In Australia, although such a corporation would be owner of copyright, the human author would (normally) be considered the author for the purposes of calculating the copyright duration; that is, the life of the actual author plus 70 years. In some cases Australian copyright will last longer; in some cases US copyright will last longer. As a result, harmonisation is not achieved.

adam

16th November 2005, 08:54

I think that may just be a typo but corporate copyrights last for 95 years, not life + 95 years since a corporation is potentially immortal. Actually, major works are most typically taken out under the name of an individual, even when the work is contracted out for by the corporation, because the copyright tends to last longer that way. Its a gamble, but with long lifespans these days odds are against corporate copyrights. Its really the life + 70 years term that people are complaining about as being too long.

That excert you posted is basically saying that in AUS works for hire are owned by the employer (same as US) but their term is calculated as if owned by the employee. No offense to your legislators of course but that sounds like a silly way to calculate it to me.

dragongodz

16th November 2005, 11:52

Actually, major works are most typically taken out under the name of an individual, even when the work is contracted out for by the corporation, because the copyright tends to last longer that way.
not in regards to movies and tv shows i think. check out a dvd sometime and see who the copyright is held by. ;)

That excert you posted is basically saying that in AUS works for hire are owned by the employer (same as US) but their term is calculated as if owned by the employee. No offense to your legislators of course but that sounds like a silly way to calculate it to me.
maybe but it was just to illustrate that the FTA doesnt mean that everything here will change to the U.S.A. way. which is why if sony was to add single machine locking to games there is the possability it could be challenged here regardless of what other countries do. for example the U.K found mod chips illegal under bypassing copy protection while the courts here they were found legal even though we also do have a similar law, the circumvention of legitimate copyright protection devices/measures provisions of the Copyright Amendment (Digital Agenda) Act 2000 to be more exact. however the courts here agreed that a mod chip doesnt allow you to copy a game but rather allows you to play a game you legally buy from anywhere in the world. in a similar way 99% of dvd players here are region free so you can play a dvd you legally buy in another country. of the 1% that are region locked you should be able to ask the retailer or manufacturer for the unlock code anyway and i have read of people doing that. most big commercial dvds discs are region protected(usually regions 2(U.K. etc) and 4(Aus etc)) but thats more for anyone wanting to buy dvds here and play them in other countries i guess.

so as i said, if sony does try to a single machine locking protection it could be atleast challenged here. or they could release a mod chip that defeats it. all anyone can do is wait and see really because at the moment its a guessing game. i have doubts though that after all this mess sony would be quite so stupid to go that route. then again big business isnt always known for taking a hint.

hmm i think i managed to tie all that back in to the actual thread topic. :D

charleski

16th November 2005, 14:38

Walking away from all their products does not send them specific messages. A better tactic is to walk away from only offending products.
...
I still plan on buying a PS3 at this point though.
I have to point out that the PS3 will probably prove to be the most DRM-laden product Sony has ever produced :/.

adam

16th November 2005, 14:39

I honestly think those articles on the Sony patent (for limiting games to the first console used on, in order to control pirating and second hand sales) are ridiculous. To suggest that this technology is going to be used on the PS3 is pretty naive I think considering the timeline of things. At this point, its just one of many patents owned by a major corporation. Sony's got many years to decide what to do with it. Its not even the kind of technology that needs to be implemented during its patent term in order to be cost effective. It could be 50 years before its ever used, if its ever even used at all.

Such technology could be challenged on multiple grounds in multiple countries. For instance, in most countries the preventing of second hand sales would violate the First Sale Doctrine. This would certainly be true in the US where the patent is being applied for.