HC Encoder Over CCE? [Archive]

dvdbackup

31st October 2005, 20:18

i use HC, and although it is slower than CCE, its quality is as good as CCE and at times better. i used to use CCE basic, it is also very good. there is not need to spend $58 on CCE.

1) That's comparing it to CCE basic.... not to CCE SP...

2) HC has a serious encoding bug. When you play a movie in reverse direction there are disorted picture frames...... What is the point of discussing quality of a encoder that even can't generate correct MPEG streams ??, or better even produces corrupted MPEG streams ?????

See no point in that one......

Rockas

31st October 2005, 20:43

@dvdbackup
HC Encoder is in a Beta stage... this means it is Beta :)

Reading your words... I just can't wait for a "dvdbackup Encoder"... it will be perfect even in Beta stage... I'm pretty sure ;)

elizerrojas

31st October 2005, 20:56

1) That's comparing it to CCE basic.... not to CCE SP...

2) HC has a serious encoding bug. When you play a movie in reverse direction there are disorted picture frames...... What is the point of discussing quality of a encoder that even can't generate correct MPEG streams ??, or better even produces corrupted MPEG streams ?????

See no point in that one......
no, i'm also talking about the CCE SP. HC is as good and sometimes better. you play movies in reverse direction? wow. i don't. that's why HC look so good to me.

roux

31st October 2005, 22:49

you play movies in reverse direction? wow. i don't. that's why HC look so good to me.

lol :)

You may want to give Procoder a try, i like this encoder for lower bitrates. I did saving private ryan at a low avg bitrate (2800) and the result was very sharp without any blockiness.

I'm also using HC and from what i have seen the results are similar or better then CCE.

Harrysmiith

1st November 2005, 00:04

1) That's comparing it to CCE basic.... not to CCE SP...

2) HC has a serious encoding bug. When you play a movie in reverse direction there are disorted picture frames...... What is the point of discussing quality of a encoder that even can't generate correct MPEG streams ??, or better even produces corrupted MPEG streams ?????

See no point in that one......

I know I'm gonna regret this but

why would I want to "play a movie in reverse direction" ?

As to the original question - I paid my $58 for CCE Basic but now use HC with a few basic filters and as I rarely watch the output at 8X zoom thinks its great

FredThompson

1st November 2005, 00:52

CCE 5-pass on high-motion gives more/larger blocks than CCE 2-pass. ProCoder mastering quality gave smaller than either. However, HC 2-pass is faster than ProCoder mastering and work well at medium to high bitrates. With low bitrates, ProCoder looks a little better because it has less distortion around edges. The distortion amount is about the same as HC, just a different location, so to speak. I noticed ProCoder will give some odd corruption in relatively smooth areas of animation where HC did not at low bitrates. CCE looks horrible at low bitrates and doens't handle interlaced source as well as HC or ProCoder. No navigation problem with reverse play and PowerDVD. Good decoder = good results. Bad decoder = bad results.

roux

1st November 2005, 00:58

Also, i think procoder has some kind of smoothner by default on. I've had a few source's with a bit grainy and it came out with less grain.

FredThompson

1st November 2005, 01:20

I used this script on Heavy Metal NTSC which is a very grainy transfer:

ConvertToYUY2()
PeachSmoother()
convertToYV12()
DeGrainMedian(limitY=5,limitUV=10,mode=0)
Msmooth()

Tests were done on the same segment and with Msmooth only, Msmooth and DeGrainMedian, then all three. They removed a lot of the grain and color swim but the ProCoder result was almost the same with or without the script. This makes me wonder if there is something related to edge detection in how ProCoder does the compression, not just pre-filtering.

I dd not keep the framegrabs from testing various filters and such because nothing worked well with a target bitrate of 1/2 the original size. A better transfer or natural images would have done better because there would be far less false motion (noisy transfer) or fewer sharp edges. I've removed the full-length rough sketch (onion skin and some complete frames) from the set because it didn't seem like something worth keeping so could simulate the results by restricting DVD-RB Pro's max destination size but couldn't perfectly duplicate them.

dvdbackup

1st November 2005, 02:32

I know I'm gonna regret this but

why would I want to "play a movie in reverse direction" ?

As to the original question - I paid my $58 for CCE Basic but now use HC with a few basic filters and as I rarely watch the output at 8X zoom thinks its great

Nope, you not gonna use reverse direction.....But you look at 8* zoom..... Yep, I got it :p

dvdbackup

1st November 2005, 02:36

1st November 2005, 15:14

Reverse play disruption is a known bug and also agreed to by the Author......

I hope you love the 5000 backup's you've already on DVD..........

i'm glad that hardly ever do i have to read so much crap in these entire forums like i have read from a couple of your replies

feedback

1st November 2005, 18:07

i'm glad that hardly ever do i have to read so much crap in these entire forums like i have read from a couple of your replies
I agree with you DK. ;)

As dvdbackup appears to have a bad attitude.

Concerning dvdbackup's diatribe, I also agree with Amnon82 Here, (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=731374&postcount=3) in addition to neuron2 Here (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=731451&postcount=7) and lastly FredThompson Here. (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=727838&postcount=12)
Regards,:)

dvdbackup

1st November 2005, 19:29

I agree with you DK. ;)

As dvdbackup appears to have a bad attitude.

Concerning dvdbackup's diatribe, I also agree with Amnon82 Here, (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=731374&postcount=3) in addition to neuron2 Here (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=731451&postcount=7) and lastly FredThompson Here. (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=727838&postcount=12)
Regards,:)

I thought youre signed with "DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING FIRST VERIFY", or something like that.

Probably not trying HC, because it's not about bad attitude, it's about the FACTS you so dearly seem to love........

Even yesterday I tried HC again and my sony DVD-PLAYER even switched off using reverse direction.......... and yep it's a SONY one, never having any problem with CCE.......

If you want such DVD's, use HC and try to compare the compressing results using forwards and bachwards stepping, then you'll see, because that's what I tried.

HC is better in encoding from what I've seen in normal playback, but useless as long as these bugs are in it, that's my point. And if the bugs are gone, what about compressing results then ???

And for all that don't believe ask HANK about the bug(s) there are.

Or better, let me quote him:

Quote:
I tried HC-encoder and it even generates bugs in the MPEG stream.

Bugs in the MPEG stream? Could you be more specific what kind of bugs except not playing reverse correct.

Quote:
CCE SP has a long development history and costs about 1995,-.
But HC is still Beta, and using Beta has risks.....

Both are absolutely true...
Using beta freeware is a risky business, but it is free

That was HANK's answer, anobody any questions ?????

Thank you.....

1st November 2005, 19:42

ok, let's agree on this:

you enjoy your cce sp version, which you spent $2000 on and the rest of us will enjoy latest hc betas and its excellent value for *money*

because all of us seem to be f******s and you're the only one here with necessary intelligence i suggest we leave it at that

roux

1st November 2005, 19:50

If you don't like HC don't use it, whats the big deal.

elizerrojas

1st November 2005, 20:01

again. CCE SP or whatever=money, lots of money, depending on which one you buy.
HC as good or better than money, lots of money, depending on which one you buy.
since i don't watch my movies in reverse or whatever dvdbackup means, and since HC while watching you movie like the rest of us watch them, look so good, and since HC cost nothing, i'll stick with HC.

dvdbackup

1st November 2005, 20:08

If the quality of HC will be as from what I've seen and the bugs are gone, even I'm going to use it, despite of what I've spend on CCE or not.

But I prefer dvd-compliant backups over a player getting messed up playing fast/slow reverse.....

The intention was just to point out the bugs in HC which make it useless for DVD-compliant backups AT THIS MOMENT.........

End of discussion.....

elizerrojas

1st November 2005, 20:22

quote"fast/slow reverse....."
quote" DVD-compliant backups AT THIS MOMENT........."
i'm out of here.

rendez2k

1st November 2005, 20:22

Talking of HC, is anyone using 0.16 with DVD-RB? Is there any benifit?

Harrysmiith

1st November 2005, 20:30

I've only been using HC for a couple of weeks but so far have had no problems.
Unfortunately I don't have a sony but I do have 3 stand alones ( Liteon, LG and Pioneer) plus 3 re-writers ( BenQ1640, 1620 and Plextor 716A).

If by problems with reverse direction you mean going to the end of a movie and then "rewinding" I have not been able to replicate the problem.

Perhaps this is an issue with Sony rather than HC ?

Has anyone else found that they can not reverse to an earlier scene ?

elizerrojas

1st November 2005, 20:54

hey, my dvd standalone is sony, no problems yet. thats because i don't watch movies on reverse. i do fast foward though, specially with the pornos LOL..

raquete

1st November 2005, 21:10

hey, my dvd standalone is sony, no problems yet. thats because i don't watch movies on reverse. i do fast foward though, specially with the pornos LOL..
lol...reverse for pornos is really useless.
this not means that HC is best for pornos,right?! LOL....

oh no, this was one good thread when start :p

FredThompson

1st November 2005, 21:44

Guys,

Just add dvdbackup to your ignore list in the User CP. It's the first time I've had to do this in about 2 years. No sense in feeding the troll.

m1ckran

1st November 2005, 23:26

:D :D :D :D :D :D

I'm glad I joined Doom9. Haven't laughed so much for ages!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

dragongodz

2nd November 2005, 00:16

Or better, let me quote him:
That was HANK's answer, anobody any questions ?????
ok well i will throw a quote from hank315 right back at you then.
@dvdbackup
You reported this already in the DVD-RB forum, so it's old news.
If people report a valid error I will always try to fix it but for now this one is not in that category.
this comes from
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=102110
which YOU started but have not gone back and replied to. so provide hank315 with real information and you may get somewhere. simply badmouthing HC doesnt fix any possible bugs or help make improvements. its ungrateful attitudes like this that make people wonder why the hell they bother spending all the hours they do writing software.

Guest

2nd November 2005, 00:19

@DK

I'd guess you have several hours in which to edit out the profanity before you get struck for rule 4.

FredThompson

2nd November 2005, 00:52

Perhaps this is an issue with Sony rather than HC ?Sony has a somewhat notorious reputation for sticking to the DVD specs which use a subset of legal MPEG2, so to speak. Other makes tend to me more inclusive of legal MPEG2. This is why Sony DVD players tend to hate 2/3 D1 source. I've got a localized version of an IEEE article which discussed some simple mods to cheapo DVD players to give far better results for audio and video quality. The original is no longer on the IEEE website.

@neuron2, do you want to mirror the pages? Check your email.

dragongodz

2nd November 2005, 01:28

This is why Sony DVD players tend to hate 2/3 D1 source.
by that do you mean 480x480(576) ? if so then that isnt a legal dvd resolution of course. as such no manufacturor is required to support that when done as dvd. you cant really complain that they dont support an out of spec resolution even if others do.

Sony has a somewhat notorious reputation for sticking to the DVD specs which use a subset of legal MPEG2, so to speak.
again sticking to specs cant really be complained about. however sony has more of a reputation to being hyper sensative to anything that pushes the boundries of the specs. that is a stream that is still in spec but only just(because of max bitrate or MV lengths or sudden jump in bitrate etc) can cause some models of sonys to have some playback issues.
its not only sony though, certain models of panasonic for example have also been known to show the same behaviour.

the real issue is that dvdbackup has provided next to nothing information to go from. ok he said he has a sony but what model, how old ? has he tried other encoders besides CCE to see if they have problems ? has he tried other authoring programs to rule these out as a factor ? etc etc etc. so far all i see is some complaining and very little real information. ;)

FredThompson

2nd November 2005, 01:43

I'm not complaining about Sony. They sell players which are certified to meet the specs. What that really means is another issue.

The DVD specs are "minimum requirements" not "maximum capability." There's a slight disconnect between Sony's reputation for quality and the frustration people have when they try to run non-standard stuff on the Sony.

Personally, I like JVC as a brand but that's just me...

2nd November 2005, 03:08

I'd guess you have several hours in which to edit out the profanity before you get struck for rule 4.

i'll be glad to do so if that's all that is needed in order to turn this thread into something useful again

dragongodz

2nd November 2005, 03:26

The DVD specs are "minimum requirements" not "maximum capability."
for the player yes. they are also a maximum for the encode aswell of course. ;)

There's a slight disconnect between Sony's reputation for quality and the frustration people have when they try to run non-standard stuff on the Sony.
yes i generally ignore when people complain about something out of spec not working on any hardware. this however isnt about that. this is really about HC producing compliant streams and if so then where may his problem be.

some things we dont know(or maybe i missed them)
1. what version of HC ?
2. what version of DVD-RB ?
3. what model sony and age ?
4. what settings used for both ?
5. did he try changing any settings ?
6. has he done tests with other software, eg. authoring a HC encode to dvd with a different program(such as muxman) and still had problems or not ?

i could keep going but that should cover some basic sort of stuff that a person should post if they seriously wanted help and/or to help identify a possible problem in a program.

FredThompson

2nd November 2005, 03:44

I think you're feeding the troll. Look at the thread where I made the "classic position" statement. It's a waste of time to treat this person seriously until they act responsibly. Humor is one thing, malicious behavior is another. No sense in rewarding it. FWIW, my typical response to people who continually run into problems with a particular DVD player is, "Buy a different player. Your time is worth more than it will cost."

dragongodz

2nd November 2005, 05:55

I think you're feeding the troll.
hmm and i think i could easily accuse others in this thread of doing that much more than i. i have not tried to argue with him but suggested how to post a proper bug report. :D

It's a waste of time to treat this person seriously until they act responsibly.
however it is not a waste to tell them what they should do,such as give proper information, so they can be taken seriously and get help if they really do need it.

its all rather irrelevant however unless dvdbackup is willing to think about whats been said and make the effort to reply properly. if he just continues to throw out the same types of statements or not reply at all then his own actions will make it clear to all what his intent was. so lets just wait and see if he follows this up or not and how.

Guest

2nd November 2005, 13:48

i'll be glad to do so if that's all that is needed in order to turn this thread into something useful again Adherence to forum rules is not negotiable.

ron spencer

2nd November 2005, 15:14

what could me messed in the MPEG stream that would not allow reverse play?

Rippraff

2nd November 2005, 15:22

@ron spencer
A restriction in PUO like "Backward scan"

Cu Rippraff

Guest

2nd November 2005, 16:05

Is that not a multiplexing issue rather than an MPEG2 syntax issue?

Rippraff

2nd November 2005, 16:19

Donald, your probably right, I interpreted this as a general question.
It's really hard to get the essential thing in this thread. :D

Cu Rippraff

FredThompson

2nd November 2005, 17:04

Adherence to forum rules is not negotiable.I don't think he was arguing. He changed the post pretty quickly. I saw it more as playful exasperation, IOW, "fine, let's get things back on track."

We don't really have an emoticon or little graphic for that. Maybe one of these? http://home.mindspring.com/~fredthompson/Smiley-Naughty.gifhttp://home.mindspring.com/~fredthompson/Smiley-Wacko.gifhttp://home.mindspring.com/~fredthompson/Smiley-RollEyes.gifhttp://home.mindspring.com/~fredthompson/Smiley-Whistle.gifhttp://home.mindspring.com/~fredthompson/Smiley-Tongue.gif

jdobbs

2nd November 2005, 17:15

Is that not a multiplexing issue rather than an MPEG2 syntax issue?Absolutely. It it won't play backwards its a lot more likely that the cause is in the NAVPACKS than in the MPEG stream...

dvdbackup

2nd November 2005, 18:21

Let's go back to the start en evaluate what happened:

HC Encoder over CCE......

1) A lot of people were verry happy with HC's quality....
2) I just showed another aspect of "quality", that's the quality of the DVD reencoded with HC and what you get with it. A DVD with bugs in it, that causes problem's when playing back in at LEAST the Sony player (which I always use to compare DVD-BACKUP quality, hence using a lot slow forward/backwards stepping to see how many blocks there are to count :) ), using fast/slow reverse functions.
3) A lot of irrelevant and personalized abusive comments and feedback to my direction, which I didn't ask for. I think it's because of the people who are frustrated about HC's bug, taking it out on me. Sorry guys, that's youre own ignorance, not mines....
4) Some people getting awareness of the bug and wanted to know more about it, that was all I wanted to add in the first place. There is no way of comfortable driving, if the car won't start (too black/white, I admit).

FACT: HC has the Bug, but encoding is better.

FACT: CCE hasn't this bug, but encoding is worse on lower bitrates.

That's all there is....

Just shouting 'HC is better or as good as CCE/CCE SP' is like looking with one eye. I used the second eye too.

Probably this was too much for some people to handle, not my problem.

Just the x people more aware of ALL the FACTS including reverse playback problems when using HC , is more important to me then personalized negative remarks in my direction from some persons that are making fools of them selves.

I really ignore these messages (although REPORT some of them ehich are really disturbing and really have nothing to do with 'HC over CCE', were it was all about finally).

So now probably everyone who has read the posts will now know the consequences of using HC as it is at this moment....

That's all I ever wanted to add in addition to the 'oh my god HC is free and so so much better then CCE' shouting, which some people like to do all over the forum and not just in this post.

Luckely those people add me to their ignore list, so I will not get any comments like these here in this thread in the future...... I'
ll stick to that one (bye bye freddy !) :)

I still hope Hank will soon release HC without this problem, because to be honest, I just gonna give it a serious try again, and when HC wins, it just wins.

There will be people not using reverse as they claim (that why every remote control has this button , I pressume ??!!!), and they can go on verry happy with it.

Also there will be people not so glad with this bug and not using HC while this is a topic.

ron spencer

2nd November 2005, 19:00

the poster said the video looked poor on reverse...a PUOP would not affect reverse quality as you would not be able to see it ;-)

dvdbackup

2nd November 2005, 19:10

for the player yes. they are also a maximum for the encode aswell of course. ;)

yes i generally ignore when people complain about something out of spec not working on any hardware. this however isnt about that. this is really about HC producing compliant streams and if so then where may his problem be.

some things we dont know(or maybe i missed them)
1. what version of HC ?
2. what version of DVD-RB ?
3. what model sony and age ?
4. what settings used for both ?
5. did he try changing any settings ?
6. has he done tests with other software, eg. authoring a HC encode to dvd with a different program(such as muxman) and still had problems or not ?

i could keep going but that should cover some basic sort of stuff that a person should post if they seriously wanted help and/or to help identify a possible problem in a program.

Hank is not interested in the problem, so I don't go into doing things that are not helpfull..........

I just warn for this problem, I don't use HC for this and only this reason, because a DVD-compliant DVD DOES PLAY correctly, even if I do reverse only for the whole movie.......

And all CCE encoded discs work fine on the same player......

Why spend more time on it ????

Don't see the point.

A lot of people don't believe it anyway, so let it just be.....

The future will tell.....

Guest

2nd November 2005, 19:15

@dvdbackup

Please state the nature of the claimed "bug" in HC. In other words, what MPEG2 syntax violation or DVD non-compliance are you claiming?

Please link to the post where you claim that Hank has acknowledged a bug in HC that causes your issue.

@Hank

Are you in fact aware of any violation of MPEG2 syntax by HC when creating DVD compliant streams that can account for this problem?

@all

Is anyone else experiencing this problem?

elizerrojas

2nd November 2005, 19:22

quote"Is anyone else experiencing this problem?"
i have a sony dvdplayer, no problems here.

roux

2nd November 2005, 19:25

I just did a test with a disc i encoded with HC and it plays perfectly and also no problems with scanning backwards.

And dvd playback has nothing to do with the mpeg stream but with the navpacks just as jdobbs mentioned. So i would say dvdbackup is doing something wrong with is backup method.

dvdbackup

2nd November 2005, 19:59

@dvdbackup

Please state the nature of the claimed "bug" in HC. In other words, what MPEG2 syntax violation or DVD non-compliance are you claiming?

Please link to the post where you claim that Hank has acknowledged a bug in HC that causes your issue.

I cannot go into the technical details, as I'm just not in to that....

I don't wanna know either....

I just want to make backups of the most highest quality that are compatible with EVERY player in the market (as far as they comply to the standards and do function well).

Why ? Simply because now I have a Sony player and maybe tomorrow I have a different brand. Don't want to be 'pleased' noticing my backups are not OK.

For Hanks acknowledment, see thread "Should i change matrix on high compression ratio?" were he implied he DOES know about the reverse error......

I see the problem on my Sony DVD player model DSP-NS405.

I'm 99.9% (always be carefull) it's HC...

I always use this player and it NEVER gives any problems except with HC encoded DVD-RW's I use constantly. The exact same DVD's I use for CCE encoded checkings, before deciding to burn on a DVD-R. It's a set of 5 discs I always use, so it isn't media/player related.

The only variable factor was the use of HC.

Now I just even tried a sample form LORD OF THE RINGS THE 2 TOWERS, and AGAIN playing revrse is corrupted at some points.

It can however play fine reverse for just a while, and then suddenly gives something like "a B or P frame, without the corresponding I frame" effect.

So pure blocks on a black background.

It's always at the same spot if you have youre hands on it.

AND EVEN MORE WIERD THINGS HAPPEN:

While playing a HC encoded disc in reverse step by step once, it even SWITCHED OF totally !!!! I was suprised and tryed again. Every time at exactly the same spot in reverse the player DID switch off at this point....

I'm ABSOLUTELY sure it isn't the player.....

There are some weird things happening.

I have tried HC encoding different times, and this was ALWAYS a problem on the Sony.

Never have had any trouble using CCE.
Never have had any trouble using original DVD's.

The two facts above makes me thinking it's clearly a HC problem.

Version of DVD-RB-PRO: 1.01final (yep, have to update).
Version of HC: 0.15 Beta. (yep, probably have to update too).

Now I'm making a new LORD OF THE RINGS sample.

I'll try it on the Sony to see the problems first.

Then a try 2 different players.

It's possible it's only Sony related....... But then again 1 is 1 2 much !!