Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > MPEG-4 AVC / H.264

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 25th January 2011, 10:26   #1  |  Link
egrimisu
Registered User
 
egrimisu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania - neighbor of Dracula
Posts: 327
MB-Tree

It is advantageous to use mb-tree when using crf, will it get a smaller file resulting the same video quality? i'm encoding an anime, Heidi remastered edition exaclty.
__________________
I7 920 @ 3.60GHz + Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme
Asus P6T Deluxe, 6GB Corsair XMS3 1600MHZ 8-8-8-24
2x1TB Samsung + 1x500GB Samsung,
Corsair 520W, Thermaltake Soprano DX
GeForge GTX280

Last edited by egrimisu; 25th January 2011 at 10:55. Reason: typo
egrimisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2011, 11:26   #2  |  Link
nm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrimisu View Post
It is advantageous to use mb-tree when using crf
Certainly!

Quote:
will it get a smaller file resulting the same video quality?
Quality/bitrate should be better, but you may need to adjust CRF to get about the same quality or the same bitrate as previously.
nm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2011, 13:18   #3  |  Link
LoRd_MuldeR
Software Developer
 
LoRd_MuldeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Last House on Slunk Street
Posts: 13,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrimisu View Post
It is advantageous to use mb-tree when using crf, will it get a smaller file resulting the same video quality?
As nm already said, you should be able to get away with a lower bitrate for the "similar" visual quality, but you may have to re-adjust your CRF value for that.

Easiest method to compare "MB-Tree -vs- No MB-Tree" is making two encodes at the same target bitrate (2-Pass mode!) and then compare the results visually.

(Of course you must pick a "reasonable" target bitrate for such test. If the "No MB-Tree" encode looks great already, there isn't much to gain for MB-Tree)

Quote:
Originally Posted by egrimisu View Post
i'm encoding an anime, Heidi remastered edition exaclty.
MB-Tree should be especially helpful for Anime. Look at this 67 kbps example:
http://x264.nl/developers/Dark_Shika...rateanime.html
__________________
There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.



Last edited by LoRd_MuldeR; 25th January 2011 at 14:06.
LoRd_MuldeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2011, 13:37   #4  |  Link
egrimisu
Registered User
 
egrimisu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania - neighbor of Dracula
Posts: 327
thanks guys.
__________________
I7 920 @ 3.60GHz + Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme
Asus P6T Deluxe, 6GB Corsair XMS3 1600MHZ 8-8-8-24
2x1TB Samsung + 1x500GB Samsung,
Corsair 520W, Thermaltake Soprano DX
GeForge GTX280
egrimisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th January 2011, 17:33   #5  |  Link
Firebird
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 61
I was bored enough to reencode losslessmaikaze with latest build.

http://www.mediafire.com/?735o5zuu5kazysg
Firebird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2011, 16:30   #6  |  Link
egrimisu
Registered User
 
egrimisu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania - neighbor of Dracula
Posts: 327
thanks. i got the ideea but it seems that even at good bitrate grains are washed out, when encoding with no-mbtree thinks look more transparent with the source.
__________________
I7 920 @ 3.60GHz + Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme
Asus P6T Deluxe, 6GB Corsair XMS3 1600MHZ 8-8-8-24
2x1TB Samsung + 1x500GB Samsung,
Corsair 520W, Thermaltake Soprano DX
GeForge GTX280
egrimisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2011, 16:35   #7  |  Link
nm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,643
What settings are you using exactly in both cases?
nm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2011, 21:35   #8  |  Link
egrimisu
Registered User
 
egrimisu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania - neighbor of Dracula
Posts: 327
--no-mbtree --qcomp 0.8 --aq-strength 0.7 --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --thread-input --level 4.1 --merange 64 --ref 16 --rc-lookahead 150 --fade-compensate 0.8 --deblock -2:-2 --no-dct-decimate --no-fast-pskip --keyint 240 --min-keyint 24

and

--qcomp 0.8 --aq-strength 0.7 --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --thread-input --level 4.1 --merange 64 --ref 16 --rc-lookahead 150 --fade-compensate 0.8 --deblock -2:-2 --no-dct-decimate --no-fast-pskip --keyint 240 --min-keyint 24
__________________
I7 920 @ 3.60GHz + Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme
Asus P6T Deluxe, 6GB Corsair XMS3 1600MHZ 8-8-8-24
2x1TB Samsung + 1x500GB Samsung,
Corsair 520W, Thermaltake Soprano DX
GeForge GTX280
egrimisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2011, 22:05   #9  |  Link
LoRd_MuldeR
Software Developer
 
LoRd_MuldeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Last House on Slunk Street
Posts: 13,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrimisu View Post
--no-mbtree --qcomp 0.8 --aq-strength 0.7 --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --thread-input --level 4.1 --merange 64 --ref 16 --rc-lookahead 150 --fade-compensate 0.8 --deblock -2:-2 --no-dct-decimate --no-fast-pskip --keyint 240 --min-keyint 24

and

--qcomp 0.8 --aq-strength 0.7 --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --thread-input --level 4.1 --merange 64 --ref 16 --rc-lookahead 150 --fade-compensate 0.8 --deblock -2:-2 --no-dct-decimate --no-fast-pskip --keyint 240 --min-keyint 24
First of all "--no-fast-pskip" is a placebo option. See:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...29&postcount=7

Moreover "--qcomp" is something you shouldn't touch.
__________________
There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.



Last edited by LoRd_MuldeR; 3rd February 2011 at 22:10.
LoRd_MuldeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2011, 22:16   #10  |  Link
egrimisu
Registered User
 
egrimisu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania - neighbor of Dracula
Posts: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoRd_MuldeR View Post
First of all "--no-fast-pskip" is a placebo option. See:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...29&postcount=7

Moreover "--qcomp" is something you shouldn't touch.
i saw you had a somkind of x264 parameters explaination manual on your web site that is down, could so send it to me, i would like to read more. It seems that i miss a lot of thing and i would be better reading more than disturbing people .
__________________
I7 920 @ 3.60GHz + Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme
Asus P6T Deluxe, 6GB Corsair XMS3 1600MHZ 8-8-8-24
2x1TB Samsung + 1x500GB Samsung,
Corsair 520W, Thermaltake Soprano DX
GeForge GTX280

Last edited by egrimisu; 3rd February 2011 at 22:19.
egrimisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2011, 22:25   #11  |  Link
LoRd_MuldeR
Software Developer
 
LoRd_MuldeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Last House on Slunk Street
Posts: 13,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrimisu View Post
i saw you had a somkind of x264 parameters explaination manual on your web site that is down, could so send it to me, i would like to read more.
Have a look here:
http://avidemux.org/admWiki/doku.php?id=tutorial:h.264

(I know that the article needs update)
__________________
There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.


LoRd_MuldeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2011, 02:46   #12  |  Link
Sharktooth
Mr. Sandman
 
Sharktooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Haddonfield, IL
Posts: 11,768
here's a list of commandline options to COMPLETELY replace yours:
--level 4.1 --preset veryslow --tune film --keyint 240 --min-keyint 24

or (if you're insane)

--level 4.1 --preset placebo --tune film --keyint 240 --min-keyint 24

if you're not satisfied by the grain retention try also --tune grain in place of --tune film
Sharktooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2011, 07:48   #13  |  Link
egrimisu
Registered User
 
egrimisu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania - neighbor of Dracula
Posts: 327
i'll give it a try see what's diferent , does the --tune film good for grainy animations?
the grain preset s good but eats a lot of bitrate that's why i'm avoiding it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharktooth View Post
here's a list of commandline options to COMPLETELY replace yours:
--level 4.1 --preset veryslow --tune film --keyint 240 --min-keyint 24

or (if you're insane)

--level 4.1 --preset placebo --tune film --keyint 240 --min-keyint 24

if you're not satisfied by the grain retention try also --tune grain in place of --tune film
__________________
I7 920 @ 3.60GHz + Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme
Asus P6T Deluxe, 6GB Corsair XMS3 1600MHZ 8-8-8-24
2x1TB Samsung + 1x500GB Samsung,
Corsair 520W, Thermaltake Soprano DX
GeForge GTX280
egrimisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2011, 11:59   #14  |  Link
nm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrimisu View Post
the grain preset s good but eats a lot of bitrate that's why i'm avoiding it.
Always compare quality at the same bitrate or bitrate at the same quality!
nm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2011, 12:45   #15  |  Link
nurbs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,460
--min-keyint 24 is redundant, because if you set --keyint 240 it will be set to 24 automatically.
nurbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2011, 12:53   #16  |  Link
LoRd_MuldeR
Software Developer
 
LoRd_MuldeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Last House on Slunk Street
Posts: 13,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by nm View Post
Always compare quality at the same bitrate or bitrate at the same quality!
That plus: The "--tune grain" is for preserving grain at high bitrate encodes, where the complexity caused by random grain/noise dominates all the rest (that's why it lowers AQ strength, for example).

At medium to low bitrates you won't be able to preserve the grain, to begin with. So you'll be better off with "--tune film" in that case.
__________________
There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.



Last edited by LoRd_MuldeR; 4th February 2011 at 12:56.
LoRd_MuldeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2011, 13:40   #17  |  Link
egrimisu
Registered User
 
egrimisu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania - neighbor of Dracula
Posts: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoRd_MuldeR View Post
That plus: The "--tune grain" is for preserving grain at high bitrate encodes, where the complexity caused by random grain/noise dominates all the rest (that's why it lowers AQ strength, for example).

At medium to low bitrates you won't be able to preserve the grain, to begin with. So you'll be better off with "--tune film" in that case.
and what is a high bitrate for a dvd resolution film? >should 5000 be enough ?
__________________
I7 920 @ 3.60GHz + Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme
Asus P6T Deluxe, 6GB Corsair XMS3 1600MHZ 8-8-8-24
2x1TB Samsung + 1x500GB Samsung,
Corsair 520W, Thermaltake Soprano DX
GeForge GTX280
egrimisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2011, 13:47   #18  |  Link
nm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrimisu View Post
and what is a high bitrate for a dvd resolution film? >should 5000 be enough ?
Should be high enough for good grain retention.
nm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2011, 22:21   #19  |  Link
egrimisu
Registered User
 
egrimisu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Romania - neighbor of Dracula
Posts: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoRd_MuldeR View Post
That plus: The "--tune grain" is for preserving grain at high bitrate encodes, where the complexity caused by random grain/noise dominates all the rest (that's why it lowers AQ strength, for example).

At medium to low bitrates you won't be able to preserve the grain, to begin with. So you'll be better off with "--tune film" in that case.
i have noted that with mb-tree on the encode at the same bitrate as the no-mbtree one has lower quality in dark grainy areeas, even with crf 15.
__________________
I7 920 @ 3.60GHz + Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme
Asus P6T Deluxe, 6GB Corsair XMS3 1600MHZ 8-8-8-24
2x1TB Samsung + 1x500GB Samsung,
Corsair 520W, Thermaltake Soprano DX
GeForge GTX280
egrimisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2011, 22:37   #20  |  Link
nm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrimisu View Post
i have noted that with mb-tree on the encode at the same bitrate as the no-mbtree one has lower quality in dark grainy areeas, even with crf 15.
A sample clip (source and encoded video) might help with finding the cause.
nm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 19:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.