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Old 1st December 2007, 16:50   #1  |  Link
Zep
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Need Suggestions for VERY GRAINY source

I have a 1280 x 720p source. it is VERY GRAINY to the point of be annoying and my enjoyment during viewing is adversely affected.

What is even worse and makes this grain even more noticeable is the fact that the grain DANCES around frame to frame so on as an example walls and sky your eye is drawn to this as if thousands of insects are buzzing about lol So I end up seeing that and not what I should be paying attention to.

I have tried DeGrainMedian(limitY=8,limitUV=15,mode=0) and it does not even come close to helping this. it gets rid of some grain but doe not fix the dancing.


I have tried

vbw1=MVAnalyse(isb=true,truemotion=true,delta=1,pel=2,chroma=true,blksize=8,overlap=2,idx=1,sharp=1)
vfw1=MVAnalyse(isb=false,truemotion=true,delta=1,pel=2,chroma=true,blksize=8,overlap=2,idx=1,sharp=1)
vbw2=MVAnalyse(isb=true,truemotion=true,delta=2,pel=2,chroma=true,blksize=8,overlap=2,idx=1,sharp=1)
vfw2=MVAnalyse(isb=false,truemotion=true,delta=2,pel=2,chroma=true,blksize=8,overlap=2,idx=1,sharp=1)
MVDegrain2(last,vbw1,vfw1,vbw2,vfw2,thSAD=100,idx=1)

Same result basically. However I have a feeling someone who knows MVDegrain2 very well could help me with parms to better make this work since I never used MVDegrain2 until to today.


I have tried HQDN3D with interesting results. It gets the grain semi ok but same problem in that any grain left over is dancing
so your eye is drawn to it.


I have tried FFT3DFilter and same as all of the above and it tend to blur a little more. Though using this after some of the above with a light setting helps.


I have also tried a temporal smoother after all the above and it helps some but starts to blur/lose detail.


ok you can get a 9 meg clip from this link which first shows a WALL with grain then the sky with mega grain.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Z8EUNJY4

any suggestions?

Thanks!

Last edited by Zep; 1st December 2007 at 17:28.
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Old 1st December 2007, 17:49   #2  |  Link
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file not avaiable

BHH
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Old 1st December 2007, 18:23   #3  |  Link
DeathAngelBR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep View Post
I have also tried a temporal smoother after all the above and it helps some but starts to blur/lose detail.
Maybe a sharpener after the denoise filter chain can fix that.
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Old 1st December 2007, 20:54   #4  |  Link
mikeytown2
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MVDegrain2(last,vbw1,vfw1,vbw2,vfw2,thSAD=100,idx=1)

If you increase this 10x to oh
MVDegrain2(last,vbw1,vfw1,vbw2,vfw2,thSAD=1000,idx=1)
it actually works fairly well. Add these and you got a nice looking video
FFT3dGPU()
LimitedSharpenFaster()


In terms of detail loss, the grain is what gives that clip its perceived detail.
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Old 2nd December 2007, 00:22   #5  |  Link
Spuds
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Hard to say exactly what to do with that since the vid does not have much detail to use as an anchor. I ran mc_spuds with various settings on the clip, pick what you think looks best to your eye if any.

Here is the wall:



Here is the sky:
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Old 3rd December 2007, 05:20   #6  |  Link
R3Z
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How about posting a non cropped original source ?

The source you posted has no detail apart from the noise, so any recomendations made on the source you posted might not work.
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Old 3rd December 2007, 05:22   #7  |  Link
Zep
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Originally Posted by buzzqw View Post
file not avaiable

BHH
that is strange I just Downloaded the file from the link fine.


hmmm...
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Old 3rd December 2007, 05:23   #8  |  Link
Zep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeytown2 View Post
MVDegrain2(last,vbw1,vfw1,vbw2,vfw2,thSAD=100,idx=1)

If you increase this 10x to oh
MVDegrain2(last,vbw1,vfw1,vbw2,vfw2,thSAD=1000,idx=1)
it actually works fairly well. Add these and you got a nice looking video
FFT3dGPU()
LimitedSharpenFaster()


In terms of detail loss, the grain is what gives that clip its perceived detail.

I will give that a go thanks!
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Old 3rd December 2007, 05:28   #9  |  Link
Zep
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Originally Posted by Spuds View Post
Hard to say exactly what to do with that since the vid does not have much detail to use as an anchor. I ran mc_spuds with various settings on the clip, pick what you think looks best to your eye if any.

ahhh very good results with some of those settings.

The in between settings work very well. Leave a little grain
and still keeps all the detail.


thanks
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Old 3rd December 2007, 05:35   #10  |  Link
Zep
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Originally Posted by R3Z View Post
How about posting a non cropped original source ?

The source you posted has no detail apart from the noise, so any recomendations made on the source you posted might not work.

I will make one and put it up tomorrow along with
a clip I did that came out very well in my first dozen or so
tests with all the above suggestions. In fact I will un crop
the original clip so you all get an better idea of the detailed stuff
as well as able to compare to what I feel is the best filtered
clip thus far.

thanks!
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Old 3rd December 2007, 06:50   #11  |  Link
Sagekilla
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This looks like a clip from 300, because the grain looks very similar to the one in it. But that's just what I think.
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Old 3rd December 2007, 07:11   #12  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagekilla View Post
This looks like a clip from 300, because the grain looks very similar to the one in it. But that's just what I think.
If it is, I would recommend a combination of HQdn3D and RemoveGrain(19), as thats what I used.
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Old 3rd December 2007, 07:34   #13  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
If it is, I would recommend a combination of HQdn3D and RemoveGrain(19), as thats what I used.
Yeah, I'm quite certian now that it is.. Those clouds look like the ones from 300. Also, could you post a sample screenshot of before and after? I'm curious as to how well that works, since I plan on re-encoding 300 (Despite the fact that I managed to get it to about 1.5 GB at full DVD resolution somehow without any external filters..) Here's what I mean:



Looks almost identical to the types of clouds up there, and the noise too. It's kind of hard to tell in the picture I have here because this was post-encode, not the source file. Even if it's not 300, the grain type looks very similar to 300, and that combination you used might work just as well.

Last edited by Sagekilla; 3rd December 2007 at 07:41.
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Old 3rd December 2007, 08:14   #14  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagekilla View Post
Yeah, I'm quite certian now that it is.. Those clouds look like the ones from 300. Also, could you post a sample screenshot of before and after? I'm curious as to how well that works, since I plan on re-encoding 300 (Despite the fact that I managed to get it to about 1.5 GB at full DVD resolution somehow without any external filters..) Here's what I mean:



Looks almost identical to the types of clouds up there, and the noise too. It's kind of hard to tell in the picture I have here because this was post-encode, not the source file. Even if it's not 300, the grain type looks very similar to 300, and that combination you used might work just as well.
I got 300 at 720p to 700MB without serious quality issues (slight background blocking, detail loss, but nothing atrocious) so you should be able to shrink it well beyond that at standard definition.

Basically the issue is that any noise reduction that actually gets rid of the grain is going to cut the detail enough to make it very compressible.
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Old 4th December 2007, 21:48   #15  |  Link
Zep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagekilla View Post
This looks like a clip from 300, because the grain looks very similar to the one in it. But that's just what I think.
you are correct! great eyes!

I have been ripping the BluRay over and over trying to get rid of the damn grain which almost
ruins the movie for me ( I love the movie enough to try and fix it for my own personal tastes)

I'm uploading an original clip and my best effort at grain removal now. note the size difference as
well. The original clip 98 megs and the grain removal 73 megs. I compressed the clips single
constant quality of Q=1 in xvid and no bframes and everything turned up to max for these clips.
It shows very well the huge difference grain removal has on this movie.

anyway,

I thought about turning up the grain removal even more and trying a sharpen filter after
but I'm afraid of losing too much detail so for now I'm trying to find a grain removal amount
that I can stand and that does not hurt the detail much. I think this latest round it damn good
as you will see after you DL both clips and compare.

here are the clips

Original

With grain removal

Thanks

Last edited by Zep; 4th December 2007 at 22:35.
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Old 4th December 2007, 22:07   #16  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep View Post
you are correct! great eyes!


I have been ripping the BluRay over and over trying to get rid
of the damn grain which ruins the movie for me (well sorta since
I love the movie enough to try and fix it for my own personal tastes)


I'm uploading an original clip and my best effort at grain removal now
and will post link in a few minutes once both are all up.
I got 300 to under 700 megabytes and completely denoised, so you should be able to do it too.

As I said, HQDN3D, RemoveGrain(19), and fft3dfilter are your friends.
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Old 4th December 2007, 23:40   #17  |  Link
Sagekilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep View Post
you are correct! great eyes!

I have been ripping the BluRay over and over trying to get rid of the damn grain which almost
ruins the movie for me ( I love the movie enough to try and fix it for my own personal tastes)

I'm uploading an original clip and my best effort at grain removal now. note the size difference as
well. The original clip 98 megs and the grain removal 73 megs. I compressed the clips single
constant quality of Q=1 in xvid and no bframes and everything turned up to max for these clips.
It shows very well the huge difference grain removal has on this movie.

anyway,

I thought about turning up the grain removal even more and trying a sharpen filter after
but I'm afraid of losing too much detail so for now I'm trying to find a grain removal amount
that I can stand and that does not hurt the detail much. I think this latest round it damn good
as you will see after you DL both clips and compare.

here are the clips

Original

With grain removal

Thanks
Indeed, if you can manage a 25% reduction in file sizes perhaps I can get the same (If not more, since I'm not using matrixes that suck up extra bitrate) reduction in bitrate using Dark Shikari's suggestions.


@Dark Shikari: What settings did you use for HQdn3D to get it to such low bitrates?
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Old 4th December 2007, 23:55   #18  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagekilla View Post
Indeed, if you can manage a 25% reduction in file sizes perhaps I can get the same (If not more, since I'm not using matrixes that suck up extra bitrate) reduction in bitrate using Dark Shikari's suggestions.


@Dark Shikari: What settings did you use for HQdn3D to get it to such low bitrates?
I think I used (I no longer have the script):

src=last
removegrain(19)
removegrain(19)
DeGrainMedian(mode=0)
fft3dgpu(precision=2)
hqdn3d(0,0,3,6)
fft3dfilter(sigma=0,sharpen=1)
last.mergechroma(src)
Lanczos4Resize(1280,720)
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Old 5th December 2007, 00:12   #19  |  Link
Sagekilla
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
I think I used (I no longer have the script):

src=last
removegrain(19)
removegrain(19)
DeGrainMedian(mode=0)
fft3dgpu(precision=2)
hqdn3d(0,0,3,6)
fft3dfilter(sigma=0,sharpen=1)
last.mergechroma(src)
Lanczos4Resize(1280,720)
Hm, wish I could do the same with my source but seeing as it's SD-only I'd lose too much sharpness. The following seems to do the job well though, cutting the needed bitrate by over 66%

hqdn3d()
RemoveGrain(19)
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Old 5th December 2007, 04:01   #20  |  Link
Zep
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
I got 300 to under 700 megabytes and completely denoised, so you should be able to do it too.

As I said, HQDN3D, RemoveGrain(19), and fft3dfilter are your friends.
there is is NO WAY in hell you can get 300 to 700 megs at 1280 x 720p even with max settings in x264. Even at 4.4 gigs I tell the difference in quality VS direct from the bluray.

I cringe at what the quality must be on your encode

I tried HQDN3D, RemoveGrain(19), and fft3dfilter.

none were good on their own but maybe all 3 together would be ok but I would expect loss of detail. Note if you are doing the low rez DVD then the grain will not as bad and you will need different methods and more light weight filters could do the job odds are. IMHO of course


so did you look at the clips? what did you think?

Last edited by Zep; 5th December 2007 at 04:04.
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