Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > New and alternative video codecs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 25th March 2024, 16:53   #961  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selur View Post
'AAC True VBR mode' https://github.com/nu774/qaac/wiki/Command-Line-Options
https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.ph..._AAC#afconvert
There have been some discussions over at HydrogenAudio about whether vbr or tvbr are better.
Ah. So "vbr" there is a CVBR (Constrained VBR) ala setting --crf with a --vbv-maxrate and --vbv-bufsize. That's going to be preferable for streaming and combined video/audio delivery, as peak bitrates worst case can be defined. We need that for video as profile/level define a maximum bitrate for compatibility which we want to stay under.

TVBR would be an uncapped VBR, ala just using --crf or --qp without any profile/level VBV limitations. Potentially slightly better sound quality, and preferable for file-based playback.

Since there's only so high a bitrate can go with a codec, in practice there's not likely to be that much a difference unless the constrained bitrate is quite constrained.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2024, 17:06   #962  |  Link
kurkosdr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
100 Kbps can matter if targeting mobile devices, and xHE-AAC decode is effectively universal on mobile: Android, iOS, and Fire OS have all supported xHE-AAC decode for a couple of replacement cycles now.

And with new codecs like VVC, we can push video bitrates down enough that audio becomes an increasingly large part of the total payload.
As long as xHE-AAC stays away from video broadcast (DVB and ATSC), I am happy. Streamers can always encode an HE-AAC fallback for older devices and serve accordingly (I don't like the idea of throwing away good smartphones in the name of "replacement cycles"/planned obsolescence, I still use my Nexus 5 and 5X as secondary phones). Although on streaming you won't save 100kbps but 30kbps (in our example above) because you are not streaming all 3 languages (audio streams) simultaneously like you do on broadcast. So, I highly doubt the usefulness of it, but as long as they provide a fallback (as they do usually), it's not an issue.

Last edited by kurkosdr; 25th March 2024 at 17:10.
kurkosdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2024, 17:57   #963  |  Link
MoSal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurkosdr View Post
As long as xHE-AAC stays away from video broadcast (DVB and ATSC), I am happy. Streamers can always encode an HE-AAC fallback for older devices and serve accordingly (I don't like the idea of throwing away good smartphones in the name of "replacement cycles"/planned obsolescence, I still use my Nexus 5 and 5X as secondary phones). Although on streaming you won't save 100kbps but 30kbps (in our example above) because you are not streaming all 3 languages (audio streams) simultaneously like you do on broadcast. So, I highly doubt the usefulness of it, but as long as they provide a fallback (as they do usually), it's not an issue.
This whole discussion was weird, since it managed to ignore the two facts that:

1- Opus exists.
2- Audio codecs don't need hardware (accelerated) support. Platform-level support is not an absolute requirement either. Apps can add software decoding for any audio codec without a noticeable downside like too much battery drainage (assuming no unusual complexity requirements).

There is a reason why xHE-AAC is not that exciting.

---

There is a third fact that HE-AAC is shit for anyone who has any respect for their ears. But let's not get into that.
__________________
https://github.com/MoSal
MoSal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2024, 00:56   #964  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,771
[QUOTE=kurkosdr;1999619]As long as xHE-AAC stays away from video broadcast (DVB and ATSC), I am happy. Streamers can always encode an HE-AAC fallback for older devices and serve accordingly (I don't like the idea of throwing away good smartphones in the name of "replacement cycles"/planned obsolescence, I still use my Nexus 5 and 5X as secondary phones).[QUOTE]
xHE-AAC is supported on really old phones. As long as it can upgrade to Android 9 or iOS 13, the decoder is there. That's all the way back to the iPhone 6s for Apple. Android updates are up to the whim of the OEM, of course, but five years is enough to get a pretty complete ecosystem refresh for mobile. Certainly most streaming apps don't support OS versions earlier than those.

But yeah, for broadcast broadcast, introducing new codecs is fraught and generally part of a massive shift. ATSC 1.0 to 3.0, for example (which still exists more in theory than practice). DVB seems to be able to get an update in more than once every few decades .

Quote:
Although on streaming you won't save 100kbps but 30kbps (in our example above) because you are not streaming all 3 languages (audio streams) simultaneously like you do on broadcast. So, I highly doubt the usefulness of it, but as long as they provide a fallback (as they do usually), it's not an issue.
There are several big benefits of xHE-AAC for streaming
  1. Seamless switching between all bitrates. That wasn't supported between LC and HEv1 or HEv1 and HEv2.
  2. Single codec scalable from perceptually lossless music down to very low bitrate speech
  3. Better speech quality in general at lower bitrates
  4. Better compression efficiency than any legacy AAC variant at any given bitrate or perceptual quality threshold.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2024, 13:02   #965  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 345
MPC-HC 2.2.0 by clsid2 now supports VVC decoding natively, hooray!

https://github.com/clsid2/mpc-hc/releases

Probably uses native FFmpeg decoding which is far from being fully/properly optimized (vvdec is 2-3 times faster) but it's still freaking amazing.
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2024, 10:14   #966  |  Link
TDS
Formally known as .......
 
TDS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Down Under.
Posts: 1,006
I'm not sure if I'm in the correct thread, but I'm trying to use this VCC Encoder:-

https://github.com/Disa-Kizonda/VVC-GUI-Encoder

And after setting up the "Ready to Use Pack", and loading a file, I get this error:-


Code:
'ffmpeg_vvceasy.exe' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
operable program or batch file.
Exception in Tkinter callback
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Program Files\WindowsApps\PythonSoftwareFoundation.Python.3.9_3.9.3568.0_x64__qbz5n2kfra8p0\lib\tkinter\__init__.py", line 1892, in __call__
    return self.func(*args)
  File "C:\Users\Geoff\Downloads\VVC_GUI_Encoder\VVC_GUI_Encoder.py", line 10, in SelectButton
    imgone=Image.open('temp.jpg')
  File "C:\Users\Geoff\AppData\Local\Packages\PythonSoftwareFoundation.Python.3.9_qbz5n2kfra8p0\LocalCache\local-packages\Python39\site-packages\PIL\Image.py", line 3277, in open
    fp = builtins.open(filename, "rb")
FileNotFoundError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'C:\\Windows\\System32\\temp.jpg'

'C:\\Windows\\System32\\temp.jpg' this doesn't look right, either...

double \\ ???
__________________
Long term RipBot264 user.

RipBot264 modded builds..
TDS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2024, 10:41   #967  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 6,786
Regarding the double backslash: I am almost sure this is not the problem, just a required convention on Windows; but expecting a temporary JPEG file in Windows\system32 is an issue: No application should try to create files there. I guess the converter searches there for a file it did not find elsewhere, maybe because a verbose path to that file is missing. Searching alternatively in the system directory of Windows may be fine when looking for required DLLs, but not when looking for general data files.

Also note:
Quote:
'ffmpeg_vvceasy.exe' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
Your package might be incomplete. Or it is not set up correctly with verbose paths to find the used tools.
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2024, 10:48   #968  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 6,786
Looking for "VVC encoder GUIs", I also found this project which might be interesting for some Linux users:

aviator - https://github.com/gianni-rosato/aVVCator
A Flatpak-first easy-to-use GUI for encoding with VVenC & aac.
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2024, 10:55   #969  |  Link
TDS
Formally known as .......
 
TDS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Down Under.
Posts: 1,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by LigH View Post
Looking for "VVC encoder GUIs", I also found this project which might be interesting for some Linux users:

aviator - https://github.com/gianni-rosato/aVVCator
A Flatpak-first easy-to-use GUI for encoding with VVenC & aac.
I need something pretty easy to use, don't like CLI stuff.

This one looks interesting:-

https://github.com/MartinEesmaa/VVCEasy
__________________
Long term RipBot264 user.

RipBot264 modded builds..
TDS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2024, 11:10   #970  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 345
Please exercise extra caution when using random github projects or anything you download from the Internet.

In a perfect world you either run such things under a separate limited user account (given your system is 100% up to date/still supported/fully updated), or better yet in a virtual machine (virtualbox, vmware, qemu/kvm, etc), again under a limited user account.

The same applies to various PPA/COPR/AURs/whatever.
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2024, 11:14   #971  |  Link
TDS
Formally known as .......
 
TDS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Down Under.
Posts: 1,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
Please exercise extra caution when using random github projects or anything you download from the Internet.

In a perfect world you either run such things under a separate limited user account (given your system is 100% up to date/still supported/fully updated), or better yet in a virtual machine (virtualbox, vmware, qemu/kvm, etc), again under a limited user account.

The same applies to various PPA/COPR/AURs/whatever.
Most of that didn't make any sense to me at all...

What do you suggest I use, that is an easy to use GUI ??
__________________
Long term RipBot264 user.

RipBot264 modded builds..
TDS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2024, 10:41   #972  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 345
And now FFmpeg 7.0 as well!

"A new major release, FFmpeg 7.0 "Dijkstra", is now available for download. The most noteworthy changes for most users are a native VVC decoder (currently experimental, until more fuzzing is done)"

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
MPC-HC 2.2.0 by clsid2 now supports VVC decoding natively, hooray!

https://github.com/clsid2/mpc-hc/releases

Probably uses native FFmpeg decoding which is far from being fully/properly optimized (vvdec is 2-3 times faster) but it's still freaking amazing.
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th April 2024, 19:50   #973  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 345
It's weird, Qualcomm boasts about Adreno being able to decode 4K 60fps VVC video in real time in software mode on Snapdragon 8 Gen 2.

Meanwhile aside from MX Player no one seems to be interested.
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2024, 22:01   #974  |  Link
oibaf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
It's weird, Qualcomm boasts about Adreno being able to decode 4K 60fps VVC video in real time in software mode on Snapdragon 8 Gen 2.

Meanwhile aside from MX Player no one seems to be interested.
https://blog.chiariglione.org/a-future-without-mpeg/
oibaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2024, 17:20   #975  |  Link
kurkosdr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
It's weird, Qualcomm boasts about Adreno being able to decode 4K 60fps VVC video in real time in software mode on Snapdragon 8 Gen 2.

Meanwhile aside from MX Player no one seems to be interested.
It's rather simple: Every chip or software player I've seen so far that can decode VVC can also decode AV1, but the reverse isn't always true. There are chips and software players out there that can decode AV1 but not VVC. Whatever marginal better performance VVC has over AV1, it's not worth breaking compatibility with those chips and software players. I'd even say it's not worth paying the royalties to implement a VVC decoder in smartphones, tablets, PCs, and software players. No streaming content in VVC means no reason to pay to implement a decoder.

Last edited by kurkosdr; 19th April 2024 at 17:40.
kurkosdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2024, 17:25   #976  |  Link
kurkosdr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by oibaf View Post
So what? MPEG has no god-given right to exist, and neither do the for-profit companies that contribute the technologies (patents) behind it. As I've said elsewhere, now that MPEG doesn't have an automatic compatibility advantage (like HEVC has over VP9) and now that AV1 can do HDR10+, the companies behind MPEG have to earn their royalty dollars by competing with AV1 in the streaming space, for example by offering a performance delta over AV1 to be worth the royalty costs (including decoder royalties, encoder royalties, and content royalties). Simply put, no smartphone SoC vendor or software player vendor is obligated to support VVC. My guess is that VVC will eventually get some success in broadcasting (and as a result be supported in TVs alongside AV1), because broadcasters are obligated to use ISO or ETSI standards, but not elsewhere. Whether this is enough to keep the companies behind MPEG interested in developing new standards remains to be seen.

Last edited by kurkosdr; 19th April 2024 at 17:40.
kurkosdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2024, 14:40   #977  |  Link
ksec
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
It's weird, Qualcomm boasts about Adreno being able to decode 4K 60fps VVC video in real time in software mode on Snapdragon 8 Gen 2.

Meanwhile aside from MX Player no one seems to be interested.
Because MX Player ( And Tencent ) are the only ones streaming VVC at the moment.
__________________
Previously iwod
ksec is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.