Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion. Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules. |
7th August 2020, 06:35 | #2241 | Link | |
Angel of Night
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tangled in the silks
Posts: 9,559
|
Quote:
But they had to deal with getting things encoded and decoded in a reasonable time. AV1 seems slow, but it's miles ahead of what it could have been. Like MPEG, it chops out anything that isn't fast enough to make the cut, and maybe a refinement will make it next generation. |
|
7th August 2020, 09:14 | #2242 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 171
|
Quote:
Yes, I think there are new ideas/processings in the NHW Project that can give interesting "state-of-the-art" results, I don't think they are patended because I never saw them described in the Internet nor in the litterature, and so I am totally willing to give them to AOM patent-free. The "big" problem is that these new ideas/processings are completely tailored for wavelet coding and wavelet decomposition, I don't think they are adaptable/transposable to DCT AV1 codebase for example... And so that's maybe why AOM always answered me that they were not interested in NHW? Cheers, Raphael |
|
9th August 2020, 17:59 | #2243 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 171
|
Hello,
Just a quick reply, it seems that wavelets are not well-suited for current highly-efficient video codecs with block-based motion compensation/estimation, and so I don't think AOM wants to include then NHW in one of its video codec... However NHW seems well-suited for an image codec, because it has state-of-the-art results for 0.4bpp to 2bpp which is the Internet range (NHW is not good for extreme compression for now, which can also be a problem for a video codec...), it is also very fast which is an advantage for mobile devices... Again I am totally open to give my technology to AOM for free, and maybe they'll review it, but for now, all the answers I had from AOM, Google, are: "sorry, we are not interested" or "sorry, we don't have time to study your work"... This is very brief... @foxyshadis, I am very sorry for my impoliteness, maybe you would have contact within AOM and maybe you could inform me what's blocking with NHW? What would need to be changed/improved? Because it would help me a lot to have such advice, and to eventually know what to improve and maybe then become of consideration/interest for AOM? Cheers, Raphael Last edited by nhw_pulsar; 9th August 2020 at 22:24. |
11th August 2020, 00:27 | #2244 | Link | |
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,770
|
Quote:
++ on the intra paint plugin idea! |
|
11th August 2020, 10:16 | #2245 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 171
|
Quote:
Very quickly, I wanted to rectify my previous post because I completely forgot that an engineer from Google told me that NHW has serious aliasing and discoloration artifacts that must be corrected.For aliasing, I thought about a post-processing function in the decoder which will detect aliasing and remove it from the decoded Y luma comp, but I must admit that I am ultra lazy and also demotivated for now... For discoloration, it can be corrected but I want to do this with Chroma from Luma technique because it will also save quite a lot of bits. So yes NHW has some drawbacks, and there is a reason why the industry has chosen AVIF and JPEG XL as the new image compression standards.I think they have certainly evaluated the pros and the cons of the different solutions/codecs, and so made that choice, and I totally respect it of course because they are a lot more skilled than me to evaluate it. Just to finish, if I can advertise my skills, I think I have a good knowledge of wavelet coding, and if you would have such projects, I am very interested and could work on it with a freelance contract for example... Image/video compression is a passion for me (and also as I struggle hard with jobs here), and I would like to live of it now... I will try not to pollute that much the AOM thread now. Cheers, Raphael Last edited by nhw_pulsar; 11th August 2020 at 10:23. |
|
13th August 2020, 20:05 | #2246 | Link | ||
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,770
|
Quote:
Quote:
Code:
- stillimage (psy tuning): --aq-strength 1.2 --deblock -3:-3 --psy-rd 2.0:0.7 Given the huge increase in tools available in AV1, HEVC, and VVC, I'm sure optimal tunings would be correspondingly more complex. And improving content adaption is a huge deal. Coding a pure natural image photograph is very different from encoding a screen shot, which is different from an iamge that combines rendered text, graphics, and natural photography. |
||
13th August 2020, 20:47 | #2247 | Link | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 171
|
Quote:
Quote:
-For the little story, I did not intend to create a new standard, it's just I had very interesting course at university on wavelets in 2004-2005, and I absolutely did not have knowledge on DCT, and so naturally I orientated towards wavelets and played at home with them to try to see how far they can go...- Many thanks again for your answer and your time Sir. Cheers, Raphael Last edited by nhw_pulsar; 13th August 2020 at 20:54. |
||
21st August 2020, 05:46 | #2248 | Link | |
Angel of Night
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tangled in the silks
Posts: 9,559
|
Quote:
AV1 does have a few pieces that really were designed specifically to benefit non-standard use cases, like still images and desktop streaming, so it's not entirely done for. But they won't take anything for AV2 that doesn't pass the patent minefield. And yeah, you'll have to make some attempt at integrating the tool to prove it can help some use case, otherwise it's just another idea on the Mount Everest of ideas. |
|
21st August 2020, 08:37 | #2249 | Link | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 171
|
Quote:
>AV1 does have a few pieces that really were designed specifically to benefit non-standard use cases That's great news, and it gives me a little hope now with AOM, thank you for letting me know, even if I know that it will be very difficult.But first how can I clear the patent concern? Quote:
Cheers, Raphael |
||
21st August 2020, 23:26 | #2250 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 171
|
@foxyshadis (and to the other members),
I have read your post today that SVT-AV1 will become the AV1 "production" encoder because of its reasonable complexity, and you also wrote: "aomenc will continue as a research codec for AV2 development." So AV2 will be based on aomenc and so I guess encoding time won't certainly be the problem.I have even read that a AOM founding member researcher said that for AV2, they are deeply devoted to really introduce ML/AI, for example for the good representation(/segmentation) of objects/shapes and better understand their motion and so further improve compression. So from my understanding, AV2, based on aomenc, will be an experimental research codec that will further compress over AV1 and VVC and so will have exceptional PSNR and SSIM scores at the expense of a very "huge" encoder(/decoder) complexity/time.When I try to think about NHW in that picture, it seems contrary actually, because NHW strong point is extremely fast encoder/decoder with very good visual aspect but poor PSNR and SSIM scores. So I start to have big doubts again that AOM could be interested in NHW for AV2, plus all the negative answers I had from AOM these last years, all this makes me very pessimistic again... @foxyshadis, could you confirm what you said and do you really think AOM could be interested in NHW for few non-standard use cases like still image? It would be great if you could give me your point of view for NHW and AOM codecs, even if it would be severe and negative (would still help me). Cheers, Raphael |
25th August 2020, 14:46 | #2251 | Link |
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 6,782
|
New uploads: (MSYS2; MinGW32 / MinGW64: GCC 10.2.0)
AOM v2.0.0-762-g7e235b0d9 rav1e 0.3.0 (325ae51 / 2020-08-25) dav1d 0.7.1 (d0e50cac / 2020-08-25) |
26th August 2020, 07:10 | #2252 | Link |
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 6,782
|
avif-0.8.1 p20200818-10-g325ae515 (MSYS2/MinGW, GCC 10.2.0, current rust for rav1e library)
|
28th August 2020, 09:15 | #2254 | Link |
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 6,782
|
Vivaldi 3.3.2022.6 is based on Chrome/85.0.4183.84 and displays the Netflix samples.
Firefox 80.0 does not. |
29th August 2020, 00:22 | #2255 | Link | |
Artem S. Tashkinov
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 345
|
Quote:
|
|
29th August 2020, 08:39 | #2256 | Link |
Angel of Night
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tangled in the silks
Posts: 9,559
|
Nice, flipping that right now! Looking at the bug history (particularly #1625363), it looks like turning it on by default was held up first because they wanted to switch to dav1d, and now because they're overhauling the entire media handling stack and it's sort of in limbo until that's done. At least there's an easy way to test it out, though.
|
1st September 2020, 17:55 | #2258 | Link | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 362
|
Quote:
Quote:
Good news for AV1 in general having AV1 support from Intel and Nvidia in their next gen GPUs. Only AMD is missing, we have to wait for RNDA2 if it supports AV1 as well. |
||
1st September 2020, 18:34 | #2260 | Link | |
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,770
|
Quote:
AMD does typically lag NVidia for a year or more in video capabilities, so I wouldn't make any assumptions about their next gen before they announce something. At this point, it's really Qualcomm and AMD needed. Although given the much slower replacement rate of PCs these days, it'll still be at least a decade before it'll be safe to assume all PCs would have HW AV1 decode. IIRC, it was around 2012 before it was quite rare to have a PC without HW H.264. |
|
|
|