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Old 20th March 2018, 22:31   #49641  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
Things are different for me: I don't use any custom refresh modes. For this particular test, you can see the result - no dropped frames. What you see logged is from the very start of the video. Also, I use the same RGB 8/12bit 4:4:4. Except when I play 4K60p, the driver swaps automatically to 10BIT 4:4:4, not 8bit in this video mode. Desktop mode snaps to 8bit to conform with Windows as it should. 10bit also snaps for all other resolutions such as 23/24/25 Hz when applicable. Note this is FSE with 59.940fps @60Hz. Never uploaded a file here so bear with me if it doesn't upload.
HDMI 2.0 doesn't support 4K60p 4:4:4 at 10bits, it's above the 18Gb/s limitation, so it can't work. You have to output 8bits at 4K60p.

Have you selected 8bits in 4K60p when playing a first 4K60p video with a standard resolution? I think that's how the driver knows what to switch to in the first place, but I could be wrong.

Attachments here take ages to be approved, so better use other means (simplest is a link to an unlisted Youtube/Vimeo video). There is no need for a video, I believe you

Instead, can you list the information I suggested to list if the steps I outlined don't work for you?
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Old 20th March 2018, 22:36   #49642  |  Link
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I just installed the new Nvidia drivers for my GTX 1080 without using DDU or Clean Install. I created a restore point first, just in case.

Once again, the madVR custom refresh rate entries were still there, but not working. For each one, I clicked Optimize, ran the test and saved the change (no change, actually), then rebooted. Played a test movie, and the refresh rate changed as it should have.

I did this for each entry that I use (only three), and all is working normally now. So basically a new Nvidia driver includes a 3-reboot penalty for my setup, but I can install over the old version and keep my Nvidia and OS settings.
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Old 20th March 2018, 22:55   #49643  |  Link
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
Things are different for me: I don't use any custom refresh modes. For this particular test, you can see the result - no dropped frames. What you see logged is from the very start of the video. Also, I use the same RGB 8/12bit 4:4:4. Except when I play 4K60p, the driver swaps automatically to 10BIT 4:4:4, not 8bit in this video mode. Desktop mode snaps to 8bit to conform with Windows as it should. 10bit also snaps for all other resolutions such as 23/24/25 Hz when applicable. Note this is FSE with 59.940fps @60Hz. Never uploaded a file here so bear with me if it doesn't upload.

Attachment 16273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
HDMI 2.0 doesn't support 4K60p 4:4:4 at 10bits, it's above the 18Gb/s limitation, so it can't work. You have to output 8bits at 4K60p.

Have you selected 8bits in 4K60p when playing a first 4K60p video with a standard resolution? I think that's how the driver knows what to switch to in the first place, but I could be wrong.

Attachments here take ages to be approved, so better use other means (simplest is a link to an unlisted Youtube/Vimeo video). There is no need for a video, I believe you

Instead, can you list the information I suggested to list if the steps I outlined don't work for you?
So, I should ignore what madVR OSD shows, display info shows, and NVidia control panel shows? I agree it supposed to be impossible. But.....

I don't select anything before playing anything. I just play it and the rest happens behind the scenes.

I see my attachment if I log out or click on the pending attachment itself. I tried uploading many different ways direct from an uploaded url and straight from my PC. Then cropped to 200KB. Still won't go real time. I'm not good at uploading attachments cuz I've seen others do it right away. Sorry.

I updated my sig for the info you wanted. I'd give more but it's limited to 200 characters. What other info that's not there now would you suggest?
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Old 20th March 2018, 23:09   #49644  |  Link
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
While on the subject of madVR not enabling stereoscopic at driver level or NVidia drivers doing what they should so external means doesn't have to pick up the slack, you are familiar with DSPlayer, a popular front end said to perform pretty flawless. In this stereoscopic automated aspect, does it perform? If not, can a playercorefactory be used with DSP like it can with the official version?
I tested 3D once with DSPlayer. It worked as designed. If not, you can use a playercorefactory with other media players. It is no different than regular Kodi.
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Old 20th March 2018, 23:20   #49645  |  Link
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
So, I should ignore what madVR OSD shows, display info shows, and NVidia control panel shows? I agree it supposed to be impossible. But.....

I don't select anything before playing anything. I just play it and the rest happens behind the scenes.

I see my attachment if I log out or click on the pending attachment itself. I tried uploading many different ways direct from an uploaded url and straight from my PC. Then cropped to 200KB. Still won't go real time. I'm not good at uploading attachments cuz I've seen others do it right away. Sorry.

I updated my sig for the info you wanted. I'd give more but it's limited to 200 characters. What other info that's not there now would you suggest?
What I meant was that you should select a standard mode at 60p, play a 4K60p video and select 8bits. Then the nVidia CP should remember this and switch to that mode automatically whenever you ask to play 4K60p. Once again, 10bits is NOT a valid choice at 4K60p, I don't even think the driver would allow you to select it. The only selectable/valid option should be 8bits when playing 4K60p content. Also make sure that your cables are up to the task as you'll get as close as can be to the 18Gb/s limit with 4K60p 4:4:4 8bits.

Nvidia CP you should ignore, it's greyed out in 4K60p if you are using a custom refresh mode. I have no idea if the above works with standard res. I'm only reporting what works for me.

MadVR you should ignore too. It tells you the way the video is encoded (10bits 4:20 for UHD bluray) or the way it dithers (10bits or 8bits), but it has no idea how you've set your GPU output. By the way you need to use profiles to select 8bit dithering for 4K60p if you use 10bits dithering for 30p and below content, otherwise the GPU is dithering behind MadVR's back which is not good.

Display info you should NOT necessarily ignore. If it tells you what it receives, that might be an indication, but the display might be set to a fixed bit depth in UHD Mode. My JVC does report RGB 12bits when I send 4K23 and RGB 8bits when I send 4K60p.

I have a HD Fury Vertex that tells me exactly what comes out of the HTPC before it goes into the display, so I know for a fact that I get RGB 12bits 4:4:4 in 4K23 and RGB 8bits 4:4:4 in 4K60p, which confirms the display info.

Whether the presence of the Vertex in the chain helps me get these results or not, I have no idea. I don't think it does, but it might because it overrides the display EDID and reports full capability. I don't have the time to mess up with my setup at the moment and test whether all works as well if I take it out.

I can confirm that all works as reported above with 390.24. No improvements that I can see, nothing broken either:

3D (FSE still needed), 12bits/8bits auto switch and custom refresh modes created with MadVR still work fine and survive a reboot, Asio4all compatibility and ability to switch bit depth in custom modes still broken.
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Last edited by Manni; 20th March 2018 at 23:43.
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Old 20th March 2018, 23:54   #49646  |  Link
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manni can you do a simple test and see if nvidia output 12 bit even with 8 bit selected as long as madVR send 10 bit (it was like this in the past)
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Old 21st March 2018, 00:12   #49647  |  Link
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manni can you do a simple test and see if nvidia output 12 bit even with 8 bit selected as long as madVR send 10 bit (it was like this in the past)
That cannot work at 4K60p. You can't send 12bits (or even 10bits) at 4K60p RGB 4:4:4, whether MadVR dithers to 8bits or 10bits. It exceeds the 18gb/s bandwidth of HDMI 2.0. It might work like this with 1080p, but that's not relevant with 4K60p. The only valid option at 4K60 RGB 4:4:4 is 8bits. This is why you should make sure (using profiles) that MadVR dithers to 8bits with 4K60p content if you dither to 10bits otherwise. Alternatively, you need to dither to 8bits always.
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Last edited by Manni; 21st March 2018 at 00:18.
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Old 21st March 2018, 00:15   #49648  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Budtz View Post
I was hoping that varriable refreshrate would enable the screen to sync up to whatever cadence the pc outputs without handshaking. if is something strange like 24.2013p the screen just adopts to that without handshaking. tv just shows whatever.
So you mean fixed refresh rate but with free timing? That would be of little help for video, as the useful refresh rates are standard. What would be useful is 119,88 Hz, to be able to display 24p and 60p without having to switch modes (plus having a smoother UI).
Quote:
switches from 60p to 24p without handshaking every time or it having to be specifik cadence to not have stutters.
This is a different feature called 'Quick Media Switching', which would be more useful for us video geeks than VRR, as it allows seamless refresh rate switching, i.e. no handshake when changing modes. However there is no guarantee that all displays will implement it, or even that those that implement it will correctly display all refresh rates without judder just like now.
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Old 21st March 2018, 00:54   #49649  |  Link
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Jeesh, what is it with this site and image uploads? It's not a video, it's a simple tiny image. Anxious for you guys to look it over. I see other folks post and their image shows immediately? Please, someone explain what I've done wrong.

In manage attachments I uploaded a 900k .jpg direct from my PC to here and posted. It said pending approval.
I removed attachment and checked post to see that it was gone.
Uploaded .jpg to imgur.com, then copied link to here. It said pending again. Noticed it said 200k max.
I removed pending image again.
I cropped image down to nothing (162KB), uploaded from my PC to here and posted. Pending this one too.
Removed and checked post to see it was gone.
Uploaded 162KB to imgur.com, copied url, and posted. Says pending again.
Help?
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Old 21st March 2018, 01:14   #49650  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
That cannot work at 4K60p. You can't send 12bits (or even 10bits) at 4K60p RGB 4:4:4, whether MadVR dithers to 8bits or 10bits. It exceeds the 18gb/s bandwidth of HDMI 2.0. It might work like this with 1080p, but that's not relevant with 4K60p. The only valid option at 4K60 RGB 4:4:4 is 8bits. This is why you should make sure (using profiles) that MadVR dithers to 8bits with 4K60p content if you dither to 10bits otherwise. Alternatively, you need to dither to 8bits always.
not my question and trust me i know this stuff...
can you try this at a resolution with 10 bit or more support?

@brazen1
uploads on this forum need admin approval just use a link.
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Old 21st March 2018, 01:49   #49651  |  Link
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Thank you huhn. Direct link working. Can you look it over and tell me if I'm out of my mind?
This is the Sony 'Camp' video. You can d/l it here: http://4kmedia.org/sony-camping-in-nature-4k-demo/

https://i.imgur.com/QuV5CVT.jpg
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Old 21st March 2018, 02:24   #49652  |  Link
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you are sending 10 bit to the GPU driver.
it's using NV HDR.
the decoder should be lavfilter.
the file is maybe faulty no HDR meta data.

what i'm supposed to see here?
sending 10 bit to the GPU driver at UHD 60 hz us something i would never with HDMI 2.0 do but do as you please...
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Old 21st March 2018, 02:43   #49653  |  Link
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I use LAV Filters otherwise it wouldn't decode HDR in MPC-HC without them afaik.
Maybe the file is faulty. I just played a different 60fps UHD HDR.
This one shows meta data, BT 2020 upstream and downstream, HDR 1000 nits BT2020->DCI-P3 which tells me what it was mastered in.
What is wrong with sending 10bit UHD 60Hz with HDMI 2.0? That is the native rate and I always match them. My display is native 120Hz fwiw. I have others that I send at their native rates at 23Hz too.

We were having a discussion about how it's impossible to play 60Hz titles at 10bit due to the HDMI 2.0 limitation spec. Does that OSD reading confirm or deny that I'm indeed playing 60Hz at 10bit or is it not relevant at all?
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Old 21st March 2018, 03:03   #49654  |  Link
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like said before you can't send UHD 60 hz10 bit RGB with HDMI 2.0 and madVR OSD has nothing todo with that.


you are just sending stuff the GPU driver. if you like to MPDN can do 16 bit and if madshi wants to he could add that too(the last time i heard something about this is pretty broken) but that has little to nothing todo what the GPU send the display.

so not sure why you comapre the OSD to what is send to the display device.
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Old 21st March 2018, 03:33   #49655  |  Link
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Thank you. Now I understand. madVR OSD only shows what is being input from the GPU and shows nothing about output to the display. I don't know everything about deciphering the madVR OSD like most of you. I'm learning. Thanks again.
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Old 21st March 2018, 05:35   #49656  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkauff View Post
I just installed the new Nvidia drivers for my GTX 1080 without using DDU or Clean Install. I created a restore point first, just in case.

Once again, the madVR custom refresh rate entries were still there, but not working. For each one, I clicked Optimize, ran the test and saved the change (no change, actually), then rebooted. Played a test movie, and the refresh rate changed as it should have.

I did this for each entry that I use (only three), and all is working normally now. So basically a new Nvidia driver includes a 3-reboot penalty for my setup, but I can install over the old version and keep my Nvidia and OS settings.
this happened to me to after latest driver.
but a simply checking all custom resolution within nvidiacp do the work
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Old 21st March 2018, 08:26   #49657  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
It's not converted to DCI-P3. It just lets you know that the content was mastered to DCI-P3 using a BT-2020 container. So you are correct to use a BT2020 calibration.

I suggested to Madshi to change the sign he uses to convey this information, as I think it is confusing to many users, but for some reason he didn't think it was confusing so it's stayed like that because he is the boss .



It would be nice if people could refrain from making blanket statements such as this. Yes, new drivers often break things for some. Yes, sometimes they break things for the majority.

But as far as I'm concerned, the latest 390.x drivers work fine, at least in 4K. I'm set to 4K23p with a custom refresh mode created by MadVR giving me a frame drop every 1-2 hours, and I use RGB 12bits 4:4:4. When I play 4K60p, the driver swaps automatically to 8bits 4:4:4. That survives a reboot and works fine here, as it has always done.

There are two limitations that I am aware of:

1) Like all the drivers after 285.28, you have to select 12bits from a non custom refresh mode. Once a custom refresh mode is selected, the resolution is greyed out and can't be changed, but it's still 12bits in 23p and 8bits in 60p if 12bits was selected from a non-custom refresh mode (at 30p max).

2) Compatibility is broken with Asio4all and most Asio drivers. Thanks to a kind member, I was able to find Flexasio, which works fine with some limitations.

So instead of making blanket statements simply because it doesn't work for you, please post details about your rig (OS version and build, GPU model, driver version) so that we can see if there is a common link between those for whom 390.x works fine, and those for whom 390.x doesn't work.

My rig is detailed in my sig.

By the way, 391.24 was just released today, I'm about to try it.
I posted details of the issue a bunch of times, anyway, it's GTX970 connected to a 1080P HDTV via HDMI running on Latest Windows 10 and with latest nvidia drivers, same issue with 391.24.

Tried, DDU in safe mode, clean installed nvidia drivers, same issue.
Last 3 driver releases cannot save tweaked custom resolution when set to 1080P23. Same for madVR, it throws driver error in your face if you try to apply a tweaked refresh rate setup.

And it's obviously a driver issue since the 390.77 works fine while 391.01, 391.05 and 391.24 do not.

Last edited by FDisk80; 21st March 2018 at 08:37.
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Old 21st March 2018, 10:35   #49658  |  Link
Manni
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Thank you huhn. Direct link working. Can you look it over and tell me if I'm out of my mind?
This is the Sony 'Camp' video. You can d/l it here: http://4kmedia.org/sony-camping-in-nature-4k-demo/

https://i.imgur.com/QuV5CVT.jpg
This screenshot shows that content is 4K60 4:2:0 10bits and you’re asking MadVR to dither to 10bits, which is wrong because the GPU can’t output 4K60p in 10bits over HDMI 2.0 in RGB 4:4:4. This doesn’t tell you anything about what is actually sent by the GPU to the display. Most likely, if using RGB 4:4:4 as you should be, the GPU is sending 4K60p 8bits, dithering behind MadVR’s back.

You should ask MadVR to dither to 8bits with 4K60p (using profiles to do this automatically) so that there is no dithering from the GPU driver done behind MadVR’s back. That or use 8bits dithering in MadVR all the time.

If you use YCB 4:2:2 then you can send 4K60p 10 or 12bits at 4K60p, but it’s not recommended as the worse chroma upscaling is probably wiping out any (very marginal) benefit of dithering to 10bits vs 8bits.
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Old 21st March 2018, 10:58   #49659  |  Link
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Originally Posted by takenori View Post
this happened to me to after latest driver.
but a simply checking all custom resolution within nvidiacp do the work
I only use madVR custom refresh rates so I can use madshi's optimization data. I don't have any custom resolutions in Nvidia CP.
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Old 21st March 2018, 11:12   #49660  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
I use LAV Filters otherwise it wouldn't decode HDR in MPC-HC without them afaik.
Maybe the file is faulty. I just played a different 60fps UHD HDR.
This one shows meta data, BT 2020 upstream and downstream, HDR 1000 nits BT2020->DCI-P3 which tells me what it was mastered in.
What is wrong with sending 10bit UHD 60Hz with HDMI 2.0? That is the native rate and I always match them. My display is native 120Hz fwiw. I have others that I send at their native rates at 23Hz too.

We were having a discussion about how it's impossible to play 60Hz titles at 10bit due to the HDMI 2.0 limitation spec. Does that OSD reading confirm or deny that I'm indeed playing 60Hz at 10bit or is it not relevant at all?
Not relevant at all as explained earlier on a few occasions. 18gb/s is the max bandwidth for HDMI 2.0. That's a hardware limitation and a best case scenario (some older devices can only do 10Gb/s). 4K60p RGB 4:4:4 8bits requires 17.62Gb/s. So as you can see, it's simply impossible to send anything higher than 8bits unless you lower chroma or frame rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDisk80 View Post
I posted details of the issue a bunch of times, anyway, it's GTX970 connected to a 1080P HDTV via HDMI running on Latest Windows 10 and with latest nvidia drivers, same issue with 391.24.

Tried, DDU in safe mode, clean installed nvidia drivers, same issue.
Last 3 driver releases cannot save tweaked custom resolution when set to 1080P23. Same for madVR, it throws driver error in your face if you try to apply a tweaked refresh rate setup.

And it's obviously a driver issue since the 390.77 works fine while 391.01, 391.05 and 391.24 do not.
I am not doubting you have an issue, I am only asking you to stop saying it is an issue for everyone, as you keep posting, because it's misleading and not true.

Saying "390.x drivers are broken" doesn't help anyone.

Saying that in 1080p23 you can't save tweaked custom resolution with a GTX970 on Windows 10 since 390.77 becomes more useful, because from there we can see who else has the same issue and whether they use the same GPU model or default resolution.

So thanks for posting the additional details, I hope that others with the issue will post detailed info as well, and others for whom it works fine (like myself) will do too, so we can gather more data and see if there are common points between those for whom it still works exactly the same and those for whom it's broken.
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Last edited by Manni; 21st March 2018 at 11:17.
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