Mpeg-4 mvc (aka 3D) inside MKV

[rica]

Originally Posted by Zerofool

So I hope all things related to MVC, stereo-format flags with different containers and so on (aside from the BluRay world) will be settled soon and encoder/decoder and player developers can concentrate on implementing support for them (if they wished to).

+1.
Congrats.

[mariner]

Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit

I believe frame alteration works like this:

View A = left eye
View B = right eye

ABABABABABABABAB etc...

So, in avisynth

lefteye=ffvideosource(...foo.avi)
righteye=ffvideosource(...bar.avi)

interleave(lefteye,righteye)

Greetings Blue_MiSfit.

1. Does one end up with frame rate getting doubled, ie 60p becomes 120p?

2. Should the --frame-packing 5 flag be used?

Many thanks and best regards.

[nm]

Originally Posted by mariner

1. Does one end up with frame rate getting doubled, ie 60p becomes 120p?

Yep.

2. Should the --frame-packing 5 flag be used?

Yes, but to actually make use of the flag, you also need a decoder and player that reads it and acts accordingly.

[BigPines]

Anyone know if the PS3 can take advantage of this flag? I believe it can but want to verify.

Mike

[mariner]

Originally Posted by nm

Yep.



Yes, but to actually make use of the flag, you also need a decoder and player that reads it and acts accordingly.

Thanks for the reply, nm.

1. Would you know of any system that will correctly handle 1920x1080/120p frame sequential (or is it called frame packed) 3D?

2. When I tried the script on 1920x1080/59.94p stream without specifying the frame rate, the result was reported as 119.596 fps. Is this a known issue?

Best regards.

[MukiEX]

When it comes down to it, there really is only one problem:

There isn't anyone around who has the coding capability to help with x264 or matroska development (mkvmerge and whatnot), who also cares about stereoscopic content.

If this person existed we'd see some preliminary patches already.

Well, I guess the other problem being that stereoscopic content (I don't like using 3D, we've been using that term for the last two decades to describe computer generated imagery with polygonal or bezier bases) hasn't picked up enough for the existing developers to find it an important enough feature to devote their resources to. That part you can probably blame on TV manufacturers.

(rant follows) As it stands, stereoscopic content is at a minimum. Current consoles either can't do it (360, Wii) or can't do it without major graphical compromises (PS3). And Cable/Satellite content is rare at best (sports programs require a replacement of every major camera in the stadium being filmed at). So the only current hope is Blu-Ray. And what does everyone do? Take what few Blu-Ray releases are coming out this year, and nab them up like a retarded game of "Hungry Hungry Hippos" to take a trickle of movies and turn them into a droplet. Right now, aside from "Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs", I don't know of a single stereoscopic Blu-Ray movie that's currently available outside of a bundle with a new TELEVISION. If Sony, Sharp, Toshiba, Panasonic, and Samsung want to know why nobody's buying these televisions, all they have to do is run to Best Buy and try to buy 3 movies for them.

Anyhoo, here's hoping that most of these issues will be resolved by next summer. At least by then we'll have some polarized televisions that don't need $150 glasses to work (RealD is licensing passive screen tech for spring). That and we'll have more than a couple of films to choose from. Hopefully by then we'll have some solid inroads into MKV and X264.

[BigPines]

I share your frustration with the greedy hardware and software companies and you make some good points but there are several Blu-ray 3D titles available for purchase without a television:

Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs
A Christmas Carol
Alice in Wonderland
Despicable Me
Guardians of Ga'Hoole
Clash of the Titans
Open Season
Several Imax Films

and a bunch of horror flicks I don't care about. Check out Amazon for more: http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...story%203%203d

Mike

[kurkosdr]

No Transformers? No Star Trek? Not even Iron Man? Who's gonna buy a 3D TV if some of the highest grossing films of 2010 aren't in 3D?

Most of the titles on the link above are cartoons, because computer generated cartoons are already in (polygonal) 3D, so releasing them into "bluray 3D" (aka bluray with mpeg4 mvc) is one export option away. But on real movies, additional cost is required for the special cameras etc. Most filmmakers think the potential benefit doesn't justify the cost.

And what did hollywood do? The took the only real movie available (Avatar), and made it an exclusive for a brand that most people don't even know it exists (Panasonic).

Anyway, the real problem isn't the lack of titles. The real problem is the fact the technology isn't ready yet. Most 3D TVs are shutter based and require glasses to work.

It's like those early "RCA color" televisions, which could only display red and green hues, and not real color. When NTSC (and YUV in general) came, which could do real color, those early adopters must have felt kinda duped. I predict that the early adopters of 3D are going to feel the same way when the real 3D televisions roll out.

"Buy a 3D player know, get a 3D television later" seems to be a good advice.

However, I still believe that the ability to *encode* 3D stuff in MKV must be implemented/standardised, so that every "bluray 3D" player will be able to play stereoscopic MKV.

[madshi]

FWIW, the MKV standard was recently (just a couple of weeks/months ago) polished for better 3D support. So MKV itself should be ready for 3D. We'd need to support from splitters and a decoder, obviously. CoreCodec has just announced today that they'll show an MVC decoder at CES this year. So they'll deliver the decoder. Maybe they'll also deliver a splitter for m2ts and mkv, we'll have to wait and see. Of course we'll then still need a renderer which can handle 3D, but that should not be such a big problem, I've that already on my to do list for madVR.

[arttext]

Iz3d claim to have a(n) (apparently) modified MPC 3D player that can play, together with their 3d driver, play all sorts of stereoscopic content. I haven't checked it out, since my anaglyph glasses were ordered but not delivered yet. I don't expect much out of it, seriously, but love to try new gimmicks, especially when the price of doing so is next to nothing . I will report back here.

[BlackSharkfr]

I have been using iZ3D's modified MPC for over 2 years. It's my default video player. I does not have all the modern features of the latest MPC-HC but it does all I need.
You can grab it from this page http://www.iz3d.com/3dsoftware

It reads Side-by-side, Over/Under and interlaced Stereo video files. (roughly all my files) It does not read frame sequential or MVC though.
Also iZ3D removed most codecs from the player, they said they didn't know if they were safe from patent claims if they let them in, so you'll have to rely on DirectShow codecs.

Set your type of 3D display in the options, it supports Anaglyph Red/Cyan, Anaglyph Red/Cyan with Dubois transform optimisation, iZ3D's own display and dual-projectors.
When you open a file you have to specify it's 3D in the file menu. iZ3D's MPC will remember the file format for each file you use.
I haven't tried the "brand new" version they just released, but I tried a beta version of it almost a year ago, they added support for interlaced displays such as Zalman Displays, LG/Vizio FPR 3DTVs and they made an attempt to do 2D to 3D conversion (which i didn't find convincing at all at that time)

iZ3D says the next version of the player will use their API to support all the 3D displays their current gaming driver supports (hdmi 1.4 3DTVs through AMD HD3D, generic 120Hz output, stereo-mirror, etc...)

EDIT :
Just tried their new version, it works very nicely with my Zalman display but it introduced quite a few very annoying bugs. (it not longer remembers the 3D settings on a file basis : it keeps using the last setting you were using the last time you used it, some features seem to be broken, more than were already broken before)

[arttext]

Thank you for the supportive answer. You have to, however, forgive me my ignorance, since I'm in unchartered waters here, but is was my impression that, on a 2d screen, I could play a half-sbs (for example) and choose for the output anaglyph and then watch it. It sounded too good to be true, so maybe it is.....

[BlackSharkfr]

Originally Posted by arttext

Thank you for the supportive answer. You have to, however, forgive me my ignorance, since I'm in unchartered waters here, but is was my impression that, on a 2d screen, I could play a half-sbs (for example) and choose for the output anaglyph and then watch it. It sounded too good to be true, so maybe it is.....

You can do this, no problem. It's actually one of the primary features of this software.

In the options, set stereo rendering as Anaglyph (or Anaglyph optimized), requires player restart if you had to change it.
Once you open your Side-by-side half file, go to file menu > stereo format and choose "Side by Side"

iZ3D MPC automatically applies an Aspect-ratio correction to stretch the half-resolution image.
If you've got a Side by Side full resolution file, you'll have to manually use the aspect ratio feature to prevent iZ3D MPC from stretching it.

[arttext]

Excellent! Thank you. And now I only have to wait for my spectacles!

[arttext]

I did everything you said. Still iz3D shows two images (not stretched) side by side. Renderer set to either "anaglyph" or "optimized anaglyph". File set to "side by side". Haali renderer. When I test with the driver settings I get a perfect anaglyph picture, so that is not the problem. Is it possible that the "normal" version of MPC-HC, that I also have installed, gets in the way?

[BlackSharkfr]

I don't think it supports Haali's renderer.
Try EVR custom or VMR 7 or 9 renderless

[arttext]

Originally Posted by BlackSharkfr

I don't think it supports Haali's renderer.
Try EVR custom or VMR 7 or 9 renderless

That worked! (VMR9) Thank you . Another thing though; Altough I loaded the identically named subtitle file (.srt) the subs don't show up on the screen. Any suggestions for that?

[BlackSharkfr]

Yes there seems to be a bug with subtitles, they aren't displayed at all on my side either.
To circumvent, the issue if you are using FFDshow you can load the subtitles in FFDshow and use the stereoscopic option (it clones the subtitles horizontally : it works great if you have side by side files and/or use the avisynth filter to transfor your file into side by side on the fly on playback)
However it still has a little positioning bug if your file has BluRay's native bitmap based subs. I don't have any subs with SRTs files at the moment but I read they work.

[arttext]

Ok, I'm gonna push this one step further. I've searched for answers to this one but couldn't find a complete one.

Many, many years ago I had a video card and active glasses for 3d gaming. Worked on a CRT monitor.

Now I use my 42" Panasonic Viera plasma screen as monitor for my htpc.
Say: I buy a video 3d capable video card (nVidia?) and active shutter glasses.

1. Would that work on my Panasonic plasma because of the needed high refresh rate > 120hz etc. (nobody at Panasonic could give me that info) I read somewhere that plasma screens could do that.
2. Will I be able, given the right software player, to watch different format 3d movies then (I already can do anaglyph )

[BlackSharkfr]

Many many years ago, Stereoscopic 3D was a small niche market that didn't bring much money. Hardware manufacturers had to make sure stuff would be compatible, and Nvidia was the god that made the software to support everything for free.

That was the old times.
Nowadays, the market is exploding and manufacturers have taken radical decisions to try and take over the market and make sure they get every possible dollar from your pocket before the others.

To make an express summary :
You need to buy a 3D ready display (120Hz+ TVs are not 3D ready, they only have 60Hz input with frame interpolation to reach 120/200/600Hz)
You need to buy the 3D glasses from the same manufacturer (There are some so called "universal" 3D glasses, but they are expensive, and they only work with some displays, not all of them)
Most TV manufacturers provide the absolute minimum compatibility : hdmi 1.4 formats, which require hdmi1.4 compatible 3D Blu Ray players, hdmi 1.4 graphics cards, hdmi 1.4 enabled drivers (Nvidia makes you pay 40$ for it !!! AMD's one is free but does not have all the features and reputation of Nvidia's)
There are 3D formats that work perfectly with any source or graphics card, 3DTVs easily support them but TV manufacturers make it as hard as they can to use them or sometimes even make them buggy, or worse : block them (Sony)
If you want an acceptable new 3D display (I consider all of them flawed at the moment, so I mean the least worse), get a Samsung 3D Plasma : LCDs have too much crosstalk (all brands), Panasonic's Plasmas are overpriced and Samsung provides compatibility mode with almost all the "old" formats that work with anything.
Nvidia is no longer the friend of the 3D enthusiast : they sell their proprietary product (Nvidia 3D Vision) that only works with their partner's certified displays and which main goal is not to provide you with 3D (that's only a secondary goal) but actually is to provide it's customers something AMD can't do so that when they upgrade their GPUs they'll be more attracted by the "green side" (they apply the exact same strategy as with CUDA and Physix). You may accept this or not, their product might suit you (because it _is_ excellent). But you just need to remember what you're stepping into if you were to buy it.