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Old 19th May 2011, 15:29   #21  |  Link
Atak_Snajpera
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Basically I wanted to have easy to edit files. Seeking in Sony Vegas should be slightly faster for example. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that decoder has to fill in whole buffer before decoding selected frame.
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Old 19th May 2011, 15:38   #22  |  Link
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I don't think that's true, it only has to wait for the frame to be completely downloaded. But then again, I'm no expert.
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Old 20th May 2011, 05:56   #23  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
@Alex-Kid
I use x264 as intermediate codec for AVCHD files (camcorder)
Code:
x264.exe "script.avs" --tff --bitrate 50000 --vbv-bufsize 5000 --vbv-maxrate 50000  --preset superfast --tune fastdecode --keyint 1 --output "video.264"
It is not lossless (above cmd) ofcourse but still gives very good quality. During conversion from 24Mbps 1920x1080i I get ~37 fps on my Q6600@3ghz. If you are not satisfied with quality you can always increase bitrate
(--bitrate 75000 --vbv-bufsize 7500 --vbv-maxrate 75000)
I think this is a very good recommendation, considering the use of DGAVCDecDi, which is fast on decoding. Do you know if this settings work with DGAVCDecDi (specially the use of intra frame only)?

I tested Matrox codecs and the only ones that worked with my HD sources (1920x1080i) were the uncompressed codecs: not useful.

Saludos

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Old 20th May 2011, 09:41   #24  |  Link
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Quote:
Do you know if this settings work with DGAVCDecDi (specially the use of intra frame only)?
It would be weird if DGAVCDecDi couldn't decode AVC-INTRA ffmpeg-mt , libavcodec and microsoft decoder have no problems with decoding.
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Old 21st May 2011, 16:44   #25  |  Link
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Did someone already compared AVC-INTRA vs VP8-INTRA, i guess this could be really interesting also over several generations and in terms of speed
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Last edited by CruNcher; 21st May 2011 at 16:53.
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Old 22nd May 2011, 01:33   #26  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruNcher View Post
Did someone already compared AVC-INTRA vs VP8-INTRA, i guess this could be really interesting also over several generations and in terms of speed
That's true, but AFAIK WebM has only DS playback filters (as shown here). Are these ones frame accurate to use them with Avisynth's DirectShowSource?
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Old 23rd May 2011, 22:04   #27  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-Kid View Post
That's true, but AFAIK WebM has only DS playback filters (as shown here). Are these ones frame accurate to use them with Avisynth's DirectShowSource?
you can process them with ffms2.
libavcodec is the fastest VP8 decoder at now.
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Old 24th May 2011, 04:58   #28  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex-Kid View Post
That's true, but AFAIK WebM has only DS playback filters (as shown here). Are these ones frame accurate to use them with Avisynth's DirectShowSource?
I think so, because VP8 does not use B-frames.

Besides,

- ffdshow can decode VP8 through VfW

- as a last resort, one can always remux VP8 in AVI and use AVISource()

Last edited by space1999; 24th May 2011 at 05:29.
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Old 9th June 2011, 23:13   #29  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space1999 View Post
I think so, because VP8 does not use B-frames.

Besides,

- ffdshow can decode VP8 through VfW

- as a last resort, one can always remux VP8 in AVI and use AVISource()
Those are good options to consider.

I did two tests with the suggestion made by CruNcher: h.264 vs WebM.

h.264: used x264 (r1995) with the command line provided by Atak_Snajpera.
Code:
x264.exe "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\test.avs" --tff --bitrate 50000 --vbv-bufsize 5000 --vbv-maxrate 50000  --preset superfast --tune fastdecode --keyint 1 --ssim --output "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\GALV.mkv"
WebM: used ffmpeg (r25870-Sherpya) with the following command line
Code:
ffmpeg.exe -i "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\test.avs" -y -b 50000k "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\GALV.webm"
Used the SSIM index as an objective quality metric (Avisynth SSIM) and compared both videos. This is the result:
Code:
5759 frames, 29.97 fps, 1920x1080i

X264
36.88 fps, 50 mbps

SSIM: Structural Similarity Index Metric 0.23
Average SSIM= 88.66771698


FFMPEG VP8
~ 2 fps, 23.9 mbps

SSIM: Structural Similarity Index Metric 0.23
Average SSIM= 85.55319214
x264 took less than realtime to code. ffmpeg is still too much slow for doing this task, it didn't respect the bitrate (is less than a half of it), but showed to be very close to x264 SSIM.

I think that WebM could be a candidate for intermediate codec when it gets faster encode times. This shouldn't be difficult considering it's a less complex format than h.264 (Or am I wrong?)

Saludos

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Old 9th June 2011, 23:47   #30  |  Link
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SSIM = 88.66771698 doesn't sound quite good enough for intermediate video, although I haven't used the AviSynth implementation on interlaced video. Anyway, I'd drop those VBV limits and use --crf 10 (or lower), and maybe pick a slower preset than superfast.

WebM might become an alternative at some point, but your test doesn't show how far it is. You compared x264 with very fast settings, intra-frame encoding, 50 mbps bitrate against WebM with slow settings, inter-frame encoding and 25 Mbps bitrate.

Last edited by nm; 9th June 2011 at 23:51.
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Old 10th June 2011, 04:57   #31  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nm View Post
SSIM = 88.66771698 doesn't sound quite good enough for intermediate video, although I haven't used the AviSynth implementation on interlaced video. Anyway, I'd drop those VBV limits and use --crf 10 (or lower), and maybe pick a slower preset than superfast.

WebM might become an alternative at some point, but your test doesn't show how far it is. You compared x264 with very fast settings, intra-frame encoding, 50 mbps bitrate against WebM with slow settings, inter-frame encoding and 25 Mbps bitrate.
I agree with you, but you can still use a higher bitrate (100 mbps perhaps) to raise up SSIM. I couldn't get vpxenc to work with Avisynth and as I said on previous post, ffmpeg didn't respect the bitrate specified. I have to admit I have little experience tweaking cli settings. Do you have any suggested settings, specially for WebM?
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Old 11th June 2011, 08:46   #32  |  Link
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a PSNR of @ least 50 is generally ok for intermediate purposes and visually loss less SSIM most probably would be quite high in the 9x range 0.98-0.99 i guess so 50-70-100 Mbit/s seems to be a good base, and then look @ the decrease over 10 generations
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Last edited by CruNcher; 11th June 2011 at 09:07.
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Old 12th June 2011, 12:50   #33  |  Link
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Why not XviD @ "ME=6, VHQ=1, no b-frames, chroma ME, EQM EHR, constant quantizer=2" (i.e., Editing only preset)
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Old 14th June 2011, 14:50   #34  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryho_hk View Post
Why not XviD @ "ME=6, VHQ=1, no b-frames, chroma ME, EQM EHR, constant quantizer=2" (i.e., Editing only preset)
better to use q1, low coef matrix (flat 8), ME=1, VHQ=0 with only Iframe. Intermediate codec must have the best possible quality with high speed.
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Old 15th June 2011, 00:53   #35  |  Link
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Some tests using XviD 1.3.2 (and its internal SSIM calculator)

Code:
Matrix      CQ    VHQ  KeyInt           Bytes       XviD SSIM    XviD DSSIM      SSIM 0.25        Mbps
EQM_EHR      2      1     240      2066947012      0.99756453        410.60      95.924313       61.31
FLAT8        2      1     240      2282251752      0.99719754        356.83      95.667952       67.70
EQM_EHR      2      0     240      2331591210      0.99705402        339.45      95.548083       69.16
FLAT8        2      0     240      2351546490      0.99704420        338.32      95.538876       69.75
EQM_EHR      2      0       1      2530233380      0.99758143        413.47      95.884627       75.06
EQM_EHR      2      1       1      2530233380      0.99758143        413.47      95.884627       75.06
FLAT8        2      0       1      4062787499      0.99728564        368.41      95.819092      120.52
FLAT8        2      1       1      4062787499      0.99728564        368.41      95.819092      120.52
EQM_EHR      1      1     240      4187715602      0.99925288      1,338.47      97.977496      124.22
EQM_EHR      1      0       1      4378203200      0.99907440      1,080.38      97.437817      129.87
EQM_EHR      1      1       1      4378203200      0.99907440      1,080.38      97.437817      129.87
FLAT8        1      1     240      4892268650      0.99971158      3,467.19      98.843035      145.12
EQM_EHR      1      0     240      5349473908      0.99987316      7,883.87      99.164567      158.68
FLAT8        1      0     240      5363731504      0.99987795      8,193.58      99.174940      159.11
FLAT8        1      0       1      5698372989      0.99954413      2,193.59      98.379881      169.03
FLAT8        1      1       1      5698372989      0.99954413      2,193.59      98.379881      169.03

Last edited by henryho_hk; 15th June 2011 at 15:55. Reason: SSIM Plugin 0.25 scores added
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Old 15th June 2011, 13:14   #36  |  Link
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Here the most important is not size but speed/size.
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Old 15th June 2011, 15:26   #37  |  Link
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Code:
"ffmpeg.exe" -threads 4 -i "E:\_Video_Samples\HDcam\00001.mts" -flags +ildct+ilme -b 50000000 -r 25.000 -vcodec libx264 -preset superfast -tune fastdecode -threads 4 -x264opts keyint=1:nal-hrd=vbr:vbv-bufsize=50000:vbv-maxrate=50000 -ab 512000 "C:\temp\AVC-INTRA.mp4"
While encoding with above command I get 30+ fps on my Q6600@3ghz. Source is AVCHD@24Mbps.

Decoding speed with libavcodec (1 thread) is ~55 fps
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Old 16th June 2011, 21:28   #38  |  Link
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Did some more tests, here is the info:

Code:
CLI   CODEC/CODER     BITRATE     SPEED(fps)     SSIM(v0.23)
-------------------------------------------------------------
(1)   x264            50 mbps     36.88 fps      88.66771698
(2)   VP8(ffmpeg)     23.9 mbps   ~2 fps         85.55319214
(3)   x264            100 mbps    33.23 fps      95.32942963
(4)   xvid_encraw     237 mbps    9.93 fps       96.94023053
(5)   lagarith        235 mbps    35.30 fps      100.00000954



5759 frames, 29.97 fps, C2Q Q6600@2.4 GHz

------------------------------------------------
(1)
x264.exe "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\test.avs" --tff --bitrate 50000 --vbv-bufsize 5000 --vbv-maxrate 50000  --preset superfast --tune fastdecode --keyint 1 --ssim --output "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\GALV.mkv"

36.88 fps, 50 mbps

SSIM: Structural Similarity Index Metric 0.23
Average SSIM= 88.66771698

------------------------------------------------
(2)
ffmpeg.exe -i "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\test.avs" -y -b 50000k "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\GALV.webm"

~ 2 fps, 23.9 mbps

SSIM: Structural Similarity Index Metric 0.23
Average SSIM= 85.55319214

------------------------------------------------
(3)
x264.exe "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\test.avs" --tff --bitrate 100000 --vbv-bufsize 20000 --vbv-maxrate 100000  --preset superfast --tune fastdecode --keyint 1 --output "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\GALV100.mkv"

33.23 fps, 100 mbps

SSIM: Structural Similarity Index Metric 0.23
Average SSIM= 95.32942963

------------------------------------------------
(4)
xvid_encraw.exe -i "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\test.avs" -max_bframes 0 -cq 1 -quality 1 -vhqmode 0 -qmatrix "c:\Archivos de programa\K-Lite Codec Pack\Tools\Xvid_Quant_Matrices\Flat 8-16.xcm" -interlaced 2 -qtype 1 -threads 4 -o "c:\Documents and Settings\Alex-Kid\Mis documentos\Mis vídeos\GALV.avi"

9.93 fps 237 mbps

SSIM: Structural Similarity Index Metric 0.23
Average SSIM= 96.94023053


------------------------------------------------
(5)
Lagarith (lossless, used as reference)

35.30 fps 235 mbps

SSIM: Structural Similarity Index Metric 0.23
Average SSIM= 100.00000954
I'm thinking that (3) cli settings is enough for intermediate codec, given its high SSIM. Maybe 120 mbps would be a little better.

Does anyone know if well known Cineform has better values? Being a wavelet codec, could that be an advantage to achieve higher performance and quality?
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Old 16th June 2011, 21:54   #39  |  Link
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Could you try x264 without VBV and with CRF rate control instead of CBR, as suggested earlier:

--crf 8 --preset superfast --tune fastdecode --keyint 1

and also with slower settings:

--crf 8 --preset veryfast --keyint 1

If you have time to play with it, adjust CRF so that you get a final bitrate close to 100 mbps. Then the result can be compared with your last numbers.

Last edited by nm; 17th June 2011 at 01:06.
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Old 17th June 2011, 01:27   #40  |  Link
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I thought you want a codec for capturing.

If u do have an AVS to start with, try four simultaneous runs of single-threaded xvid_encraw using EQM_EHR @ CQ=2, VHQ=0 and KeyInt=1.
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