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Old 3rd September 2009, 01:51   #41  |  Link
Capsbackup
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
I'll tell you, though. I have both (external USB2 and SATA) and at least on my system they seem to transfer at about the same speed...
I have noticed a big difference in transfer times. I use my internal HD, which I rip the original Blu-Ray to and reencode with BD-RB, then transfer to my ESATA HD for long term storage. Much faster this way then with USB2.0. I have been keeping all my original rips too, like GaPony does, and maybe will have to look into the PS3 some day.
For now, I'm content on BD-5/9 and BD-R/RE.
Besides, I would NOT want to miss out on all this fun were having backing up/developing BD-RB, and for that we need to BURN!!
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Old 3rd September 2009, 03:29   #42  |  Link
GaPony
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Like I said Capsbackup... I still do plenty of burning, I've just added the additional excitement of streaming! I'll have my own little personal version of NetFlix around here soon! The good news is that BD-Rebuilder has functionality far beyond just copying and burning... as if that wasn't enough.
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Old 3rd September 2009, 14:54   #43  |  Link
jdobbs
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I'm afraid you may have a serious hardware issue. There is virtually no difference in data transfer of an eSATA and an internal SATA. USB 2.0 and even Firewire can't touch it! SATA/eSATA are about 6x faster than USB 2.0 in everyday use...not just some benchmark test.

In some activities it doesn't matter much. If you're talking about using BD-Rebuilder to an external USB drive vs. an eSATA drive, you might be correct, but its not the same thing. An eSATA DVD burner is alot faster than a USB DVD burner... in terms of burner speeds. If you copy 8GB of data to/from a USB HDD to your PC's internal drive and then that same data using an eSATA HDD, you'll be tempted to throw the USB drive into the closest dumpster.

I have to tell you that your software has cost me a ton of money... I keep all the original ripped movies and all the BD-Rebuilder copies on hard drives... along with the BD25 or BD9 copies on disc. I used to be blissfully ignorant that a Blu-Ray could even be copied. Now here I am 20 (1TB and 1.5TB) drives later....... j/k
You may want to do some testing -- as there's a huge difference as to what specs say and what really happens in a Windows environment. I get about the same speed if I copy from SATA to SATA drive (both internal) and if I copy from USB2. In both cases when copying a ripped BD directory, I get a true throughput of around 16MB/sec. I guess it could be hardware -- but is seems to be consistent across all four of my working/testing computers using Explorer to copy... the external USB2 drives I have all have SATA physical drives inside them anyway -- and cracking them open and installing them internally (as I have done) didn't make a bit of difference in speed.

As for burners/BD drives -- I only have one and it is SATA so I can't really make any comparisons...

Of course this is just my humble opinion and my humble experience.

You think the software has cost you a ton of money? In addition to the wall of drives I have now so I can keep copies online for testing -- and all the movies I buy just so I can find bugs in them (even though some pretty much suck) -- I'll need two or three years of donations just to break even...

Hmmm... I hope my wife isn't reading this... I'd hate to have to admit to it!
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Last edited by jdobbs; 3rd September 2009 at 15:35.
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Old 3rd September 2009, 15:29   #44  |  Link
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I think that goes along with what I was saying. For this purpose of using BD-Rebuilder, there probably won't be much, if any difference. The output of BD-Rebuilder isn't very fast. The same is true of copying from a DVD drive to the internal or external hard drives, the DVD drive is the limiting factor. If, on the other hand you copy from the internal hard drives, to an external hard drive, say like in backing up your C: drive to an external. You'll see a huge difference between USB and eSATA. A SATA interface with a USB connection, is still USB speed. Its not about the internal connections of the enclosure, but about the connection to the PC. You have an eSATA port on the PC in order to get the enhanced speed. I'll run a few different scenarios with an enclosure that has both a USB connection and an eSATA connection and post the comparison in a new thread.... since its definitely off topic for this thread.
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Old 3rd September 2009, 15:38   #45  |  Link
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I think that goes along with what I was saying. For this purpose of using BD-Rebuilder, there probably won't be much, if any difference. The output of BD-Rebuilder isn't very fast. The same is true of copying from a DVD drive to the internal or external hard drives, the DVD drive is the limiting factor. If, on the other hand you copy from the internal hard drives, to an external hard drive, say like in backing up your C: drive to an external. You'll see a huge difference between USB and eSATA. A SATA interface with a USB connection, is still USB speed. Its not about the internal connections of the enclosure, but about the connection to the PC. You have an eSATA port on the PC in order to get the enhanced speed. I'll run a few different scenarios with an enclosure that has both a USB connection and an eSATA connection and post the comparison in a new thread.... since its definitely off topic for this thread.
When I say I copy from drive to drive internally -- I mean from an SATA HDD to a SATA HDD. It copies at the same rate as from a USB-2 External to a SATA HDD. The resulting "true throughput rate" of 16MB per second is significantly below the highest possible throughput rate of either of the standards -- it comes out to about 168Mbs, and USB-2 should be able to handle (theoretically) up to around 400Mbs. I'm guessing it's limited by seek times, Microsoft overhead, latency, whatever -- but it's a lot less than either of the standards should accomodate.
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Last edited by jdobbs; 3rd September 2009 at 15:44.
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Old 3rd September 2009, 15:50   #46  |  Link
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Two recent examples I tested:
Internal SATA 7200RPM HD to ESATA Vantec SATA/USB2.0 HD Dock. Using the ESATA connector for both tests:
30.6GB took 8min. 4sec.
42.9GB took 11min. 37sec.
This, though just copy/paste from Internal HD to ESATA, is many times faster than if through the USB cable.

Quote:
Hmmm... I hope my wife isn't reading this... I'd hate to have to admit to it!
I've already been discovered by mine, but it wasn't here at Doom9. The mail just isn't reliable, and CC statements are hard to cover up when she gets the mail first!

Last edited by Capsbackup; 3rd September 2009 at 16:07.
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Old 3rd September 2009, 16:51   #47  |  Link
jdobbs
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Originally Posted by Capsbackup View Post
Two recent examples I tested:
Internal SATA 7200RPM HD to ESATA Vantec SATA/USB2.0 HD Dock. Using the ESATA connector for both tests:
30.6GB took 8min. 4sec.
42.9GB took 11min. 37sec.
This, though just copy/paste from Internal HD to ESATA, is many times faster than if through the USB cable.


I've already been discovered by mine, but it wasn't here at Doom9. The mail just isn't reliable, and CC statements are hard to cover up when she gets the mail first!
It's about 4 times faster than either my SATA or USB2. But it's still 64MB/s which is only 28% faster than the theoretical maximum transfer rate of a USB-2 interface. The largest part of the difference is probably in the drives themselves (yours and mine).
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Old 4th September 2009, 00:01   #48  |  Link
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@DVD Maniac: I've seen this debate before and it all falls on personal tastes.

I'm old fashioned enough to like my movies on a disc, see the case and enjoy the beauty of a custom cover. Besides, I still haven't found a SW player that plays absolutely any movie without giving a problem with this or that.

So, for me it's the DVD, or BD-R in this case. For me in this case, the money difference is not that big enough as to make me want to change. But I'm happy you are happy with your HDD and that you save money with that. And I mean it, no irony intended

Regards

Edit: Forgot to say that HDD die... and mine have died on me several times. Another reason that makes it not worthwhile for me.
Well I hope your optical discs you have access to are more reliable long term than the ones I have tried Never had an HDD fail on me yet, but if I had 1 for every optical coaster or 2nd time around failure i've had I would have enough money to buy every single Blu-ray ever released! I hear you on the case and cover thing but its all just to much frustration and effort for me.
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Old 4th September 2009, 00:34   #49  |  Link
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Let's get off this subject, ok? Each person has the right to use whatever media/interface they want.

Everybody's right on this one. Because the method you prefer (personally) is the one that is obviously right for you.

My personal preference is to capture each individual frame and print it to a sheet of paper so I can play back the movie by flipping through it with my thumb. I've never had a single sheet go bad and it has never failed due to power outage. None of you high-tech'ers can make that claim.

This post is NOT directed at anyone in particular. Just to be fair, I know I'm just as guilty as everyone else in pulling this thread off topic.
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Old 4th September 2009, 01:16   #50  |  Link
DVD Maniac
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Let's get off this subject, ok? Each person has the right to use whatever media/interface they want.

Everybody's right on this one. Because the method you prefer (personally) is the one that is obviously right for you.

My personal preference is to capture each individual frame and print it to a sheet of paper so I can play back the movie by flipping through it with my thumb. I've never had a single sheet go bad and it has never failed due to power outage. None of you high-tech'ers can make that claim.

This post is NOT directed at anyone in particular. Just to be fair, I know I'm just as guilty as everyone else in pulling this thread off topic.
Jdobbs, if your current full time job and / or software development career ever not work out there is always politics

Agree with your comments, my posts are just intended to highlight a point that some may have not considered given the mass marketing of blank optical recordable media. In (my) full time job i have seen what goes into the pressed production of original CD/DVD media and I know for a fact that consumer optical media is intended to meet a deliberate inferior standard much like the old days of cassetts tape, VHS etc. Look no further than light bulbs or the car industry to see the same commercial analogy.

HDD's on the other hadn meet an enirely different broad market usage requring higher manufacturing standards and reliability. I'm done with coaster creation weekends - life's tto short!
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Old 6th September 2009, 23:35   #51  |  Link
Chefkoch_ico
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Hi.

To stick with topic, I buy most BD-Rs on ebay.com.

Always imports from Japan. At first Sony BD-R 4x printable.

Later then I switched to TDK BD-R 4x printable (20 pcs in a cakebox). Price is about 4 Dollars including shipping (approx 3 EUR per disc).

For me, living in Europe, a good price.

-----------

My NAS with 3 TB capacity I only use temporary. If I have no discs atm, I can play the ISO images over network in my HTPC (Mediaportal+PowerDVD). But later on I burn the files to BD-R.

Bye
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Old 7th September 2009, 00:30   #52  |  Link
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When I say I copy from drive to drive internally -- I mean from an SATA HDD to a SATA HDD. It copies at the same rate as from a USB-2 External to a SATA HDD. The resulting "true throughput rate" of 16MB per second is significantly below the highest possible throughput rate of either of the standards -- it comes out to about 168Mbs, and USB-2 should be able to handle (theoretically) up to around 400Mbs. I'm guessing it's limited by seek times, Microsoft overhead, latency, whatever -- but it's a lot less than either of the standards should accomodate.
To clarify this subject, the theoretic transfer speed of USB2 is 480bmps which is 60MB/s. But transfers are half-duplex, meaning you get up to half of that in each direction so that's a maximum of 30MB/s. Additionally, Windows reserves about 10% of bandwidth for other devices if I remember correctly.

You may be able to increase the speed of transfers by raising the polling rate of the usb connectors but not by much.

So 16MB/s is little, but not that much lower than the maximum possible. If you see speeds higher than that with USB sticks or small devices it's just Windows caching reads and writes.
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Old 7th September 2009, 14:19   #53  |  Link
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To clarify this subject, the theoretic transfer speed of USB2 is 480bmps which is 60MB/s. But transfers are half-duplex, meaning you get up to half of that in each direction so that's a maximum of 30MB/s. Additionally, Windows reserves about 10% of bandwidth for other devices if I remember correctly.

You may be able to increase the speed of transfers by raising the polling rate of the usb connectors but not by much.

So 16MB/s is little, but not that much lower than the maximum possible. If you see speeds higher than that with USB sticks or small devices it's just Windows caching reads and writes.
I have never experienced any issues with SATA / USB 2 docking stations playing back any current HD sources so I can only assume USB 2 has sufficient bandwidth to work in this way with my partucular setup. Had this not worked I always have a spare Internal SATA connector and power lead available patched into the front panel of my MPC but with the obvious downside of Power Down / Up cycles to swap out the HDD. My new MB has an AHCI BIOS which (allegedly) allows for Internal SATA hot swapping but to be honest i've never trusted it enough to try it!
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Old 7th September 2009, 22:23   #54  |  Link
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To clarify this subject, the theoretic transfer speed of USB2 is 480bmps which is 60MB/s. But transfers are half-duplex, meaning you get up to half of that in each direction so that's a maximum of 30MB/s. Additionally, Windows reserves about 10% of bandwidth for other devices if I remember correctly.

You may be able to increase the speed of transfers by raising the polling rate of the usb connectors but not by much.

So 16MB/s is little, but not that much lower than the maximum possible. If you see speeds higher than that with USB sticks or small devices it's just Windows caching reads and writes.
Ok... I have to correct my self here. When I was looking at transfers previously I was measuring from my BD drive to either the USB-2 or SATA. Just to satisfy myself I did a couple of BD copies from SATA to SATA HDDs... No comparison. The SATA drives were well above 45MB/sec (almost 3 times faster than what I'm seeing on the USB-2s). So this time I have to raise the B.S. flag on myself this time.


Additional note:
Is that how they measure half-duplex on USB-2? I pretty sure it isn't. Most of the time half-duplex means you can go full speed but only in one direction at a time, not half-speed in two directions. From what I've read, the maximum transfer rate (reality) is about 40MB/sec for a dedicated USB-2 interface on a HDD. 60MB/sec is the maximum theoretical rate, but it can never actually be reached.
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Old 7th September 2009, 22:54   #55  |  Link
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I went to a debate on this very subject of USB-2 in comparison to SATA II.Speed claims for any format or drive rarely rise to its makers claims.

http://www.rt.db.erau.edu/655s08/655webUSBSAT/index.htm
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Old 8th September 2009, 00:04   #56  |  Link
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Back to BD-R media: Memorex 4x BD-R, which has the same mfg ID as the RiData, just Blue in color (Ritek) $29.99 for a 15 pack spindle at Fry's.
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Old 8th September 2009, 00:42   #57  |  Link
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For you Ritek lovers.. $2.95 ea.
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Old 8th September 2009, 04:01   #58  |  Link
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You gotta love seeing the prices dropping. Maybe BD-Rebuilder's popularity is effecting the market?
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Old 8th September 2009, 22:39   #59  |  Link
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Yikes, I'm jealous of you Americans..

in Canada, the cheapest BD-R media I've come across is $4 per disc (In Canadian dollars), and that's a brand known as 'Microboards': https://www.blankmedia.ca/prodsubcats.asp?id=171

Anything less the $3 per disc is a bargain for me..
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Old 9th September 2009, 00:37   #60  |  Link
DVD Maniac
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Yikes, I'm jealous of you Americans..

in Canada, the cheapest BD-R media I've come across is $4 per disc (In Canadian dollars), and that's a brand known as 'Microboards': https://www.blankmedia.ca/prodsubcats.asp?id=171

Anything less the $3 per disc is a bargain for me..
@SilverBlade

Don't be jealous, just get smart, BD-R media is a mugs game. Find yourself a competitive HDD source and waive goodbye to endless coasters and tedious quality checks . Europe is the same deal, inflated prices indicative of media suppliers manipulated by Holywood lawyers scared shitless of the source of the next gin palace yacht on the med. Use your options
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