Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th March 2021, 17:59   #1  |  Link
spapakons
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 2
Sharing 4K videos with family and friends

I remember in the 80's and 90's when one wanted to share a home video with family and friends he would connect the camera to a VHS recorder to create a copy to tape.

A little before the end of the century he would create a copy on DVD to share.

For high definition video he would share a Blu Ray disc, but there is a much cheaper alternative, AVCHD-DVD which is a standard DVD-R disc containing high definition video and can be played in a standard Blu Ray player.

My question is, what is the alternative for 4K Ultra high definition video? Obviously it is not cost-effective to share a UHD Blu Ray, let alone I don't have an UHD BD-R drive in my computer. Is there any format that I can record 4K video on a standard 25GB BD-R disc, or even better a standard DVD-R disc? Does this format play on any standard UHD Blu Ray player? If I create a data disc with an AVI or MP4 or MKV file 4K video, does it play on a standalone UHD Blu Ray player? Does this plays automatically upon inserting the disc?

I use several applications (Virtualdub, TMPGEnc, Nero Video, MultiAVCHD, IFOEDIT etc) to create a standard DVD-Video or AVCHD-DVD with the maximum possible bitrate (maximum quality). I want to know what is the equivalent of AVCHD-DVD when it comes to 4K video. Which application can produce that format? Is there an application that can produce the format WITHOUT recompressing the original video (without reducing quality) ? For HD video I use MultiAVCHD that can produce an AVCHD-DVD without recompressing the original video. This is much faster and preserves the original video quality. For DVD-Video I separate the original MPG file into elementary streams (M2V file for video and AC3 file for audio) and then use IFOEDIT to create the DVD files (VOB) without recompressing the original video.

Thank you in advance.

PS: I have read about Sony's XAVC-S, but I'm afraid this is compatible only with Sony devices. Is there any alternative that works in any device? Can I just create a data disc with a single 4K video file and play on a standalone UHD Blu Ray player? What are the specs?
spapakons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2021, 19:09   #2  |  Link
videoh
Useful n00b
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,668
We can't help you to re-distribute copyrighted materials!
videoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2021, 01:09   #3  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,112
Quote:
Originally Posted by videoh View Post
We can't help you to re-distribute copyrighted materials!
I read the question as being specifically about home videos.

In that case...it is kind of a pain! A 4K HEVC .mp4 on a file sharing service can work. Most systems that can decode 4K also have HEVC, which can save a lot of bits at 4K resolutions. But file sharing often has a 100 MB cap or whatever, which can make long files challenging. A 2-pass VBR encode where --bitrate is set to whatever you can get given max file size and clip duration.

You could upload to YouTube, but their 4K quality is pretty terrible with some classes of content, and requires a pretty fast PC to decode without dropping frames.

Honestly, just inviting people over is what I've done to date. It's kind of like web video circa 1998; there's no single file that everyone can play out of the box, and works best for short content.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2021, 01:55   #4  |  Link
videoh
Useful n00b
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
I read the question as being specifically about home videos.
OK, deferring to your judgment.
videoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2021, 23:07   #5  |  Link
rwill
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 173
Yeah thats a tough one.

HEVC with common Audio in a .mp4 file can be played back by most UHD Smart TVs that have a USB port for thumb or hard drives or they integrate into Media Libraries available on the (W-)LAN. I think to remember that certain UHD Blu-Ray players have the same connectivity features. For data transfer I would use cloud services, although the capacity is limited. It appears the $$$ spent on VHS tapes or Disc media before has to be invested into extended cloud storage now.

But yeah technically its pretty segmented what one can and cant do.
rwill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2021, 12:01   #6  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Metropolitan City of Milan, Italy
Posts: 2,145
Quote:
Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
I remember in the 80's and 90's when one wanted to share a home video with family and friends he would connect the camera to a VHS recorder to create a copy to tape.
Ah, the 90s... I was young and "stupid" when I transferred all my DVs to VHS 'cause they were immediately available to see with family and friends... To this very day I regret doing that... ('cause I eventually threw away DVs...).




Anyway, back on topic.
To answer your question, if you wanna share files (and not physical supports) then your best "bet" for compatibility would be:

## For FULL HD SDR ##

- H.264 --ref 4 --level 4.1 --profile High in 1920x1080 yv12 (4:2:0) 8bit planar BT709 SDR

- AAC Audio 44100Hz or 48000Hz either Stereo or 5.1 at a decent bitrate, like at least 192kbit/s for stereo and 320 kbit/s for 5.1

## For UHD HDR ##

- H.265 --ref 4 --level 5.0 --profile main10 in 3840x2160 4:2:0 (either the regular one or type2) 10bit planar and either BT709 SDR or BT2020 SDR or BT2100 with HLG/PQ in HDR

- AAC Audio 44100Hz or 48000Hz either Stereo or 5.1 at a decent bitrate, like at least 192kbit/s for stereo and 320 kbit/s for 5.1


Both should be muxed in .mp4 to be safe, but sometimes also .mov is accepted. Not everything accepts .mkv, though, so it might or might not work, but most smart TV will probably be able to handle this kind of contents via USB, so are the BD Players via USB.
There are some additional parameters that one can try to use to improve compatibility at the expense of compression, like setting the keyint exactly like the framerate; for instance, if a clip is 23.976fps progressive, it would be: --min-keyint 1 --keyint 24. Anyway, aside from that, you should be able to play with other settings like the preset, crf, me and subme etc without affecting compatibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
Is there any format that I can record 4K video on a standard 25GB BD-R disc, or even better a standard DVD-R disc?
It's highly unlikely that it will play...

The bitrate cap must be really low for DVD 'cause the read-speed is low, so, if you put a DVD with an HEVC at high bitrate inside it in a UHD-BD player (assuming that it reads it which is by no means guaranteed) it will be stuttering all the time unless it's below 7 Mbit/s and a UHD encoded with "standard" settings below 7Mbit/s is... well... worse than YouTube...


Quote:
Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
If I create a data disc with an AVI or MP4 or MKV file 4K video, does it play on a standalone UHD Blu Ray player? Does this plays automatically upon inserting the disc?
No.
And if they do, it will be out of pure luck.
Many UHD BD players have USB ports and ethernet and can connect to other devices and play files which are not UHD-BD complaint, however, when you insert a disk, I'm pretty sure they expect an .m2ts which follows exactly the specs... 'cause... you know... it's a disk...
It might play, but it would be out of pure luck...


Quote:
Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
I want to know what is the equivalent of AVCHD-DVD when it comes to 4K video.
An m2ts encoded in H.265 with the --uhd-bd flag which will force a series of parameters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
Which application can produce that format?
x265 to encode the .hevc and FFMpeg to mux it in an .m2ts.
About the audio, it would be an AC3 48'000Hz at 384 kbit/s or a TrueHD file. About the folder structure in the BD, I think Scenarist can do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
Is there an application that can produce the format WITHOUT recompressing the original video (without reducing quality) ?
What do you mean? Making a UHD-BD from a UHD-BD? Uhm... I think Scenarist should be able to do that, but what's the point? Between the cost of buying a UHD-BD Compatible Disk and cloning it, your friends might as well just buy the original BD and get the cover as a bonus.



Quote:
Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
PS: I have read about Sony's XAVC, but I'm afraid this is compatible only with Sony devices.
XAVC is a professional broadcast format used by cameras and studios based on H.264. It has constant bitrate according to the Class (50, 100, 200, 300, 480) Mbit/s and it changes with the framerate, for instance Class 300 is 500 Mbit/s for 50p as those bitrates are specified for 29.970fps, it has --slices 8 --no-cabac --nal-hrd cbr and other settings, but it is NOT for home users, so DON'T use it.
FranceBB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2021, 21:36   #7  |  Link
ReinerSchweinlin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 404
You might want to give Plex and Emby a look for "sharing stuff with your friends". Given you have encoded the material like proposed above and your bandwith is high-enough - your family and friends can access your media librara from all over the world - and in cases where bandwith is not enough or resolution or playback capabilities are limited - plex can do realtime transcoding. Installed on a windows machine with a half decent intel_iGPU (Kaby Lake or newer will do fine), the transcoding can be done via hardware...

Itīs just one possibilty, but since both plex and Emby run on a lot of playback devices (from smartphones, firetvs, google chromecasts, BD-Players, smart,tvs, etc...), the chances of "easy access" are quite good... It might happen that some participants canīt enjoy 4K as intended - but better to then watch a 720p Version than to be excluded

The already discussed route of chossing an optical disc has itīs pros and cons, too... Maybe streaming is worth a thoughz for you.
ReinerSchweinlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2021, 20:53   #8  |  Link
spapakons
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 2
My next camcorder will be 4K, assuming I can afford one, and I want a disc format to archive my footage. I could just copy all the footage to a large hard disk but if anything happens to that disk would lose all my memories. Keeping a copy on BD-R XL disc is not cost effective, so I was asking for a copy on standard 25GB BD-R disc or even DVD-R disc for small duration videos. Is there any format like AVCHD DVD is for HD video? Would just copy the video file on a disc (data mode) play on a standalone 4K player?

Thank you again.
spapakons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th March 2021, 00:21   #9  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,340
Burnable bluray and DVDs die pretty fast unless you get MDisk blanks (expensive). They are not a good archival format.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th March 2021, 01:33   #10  |  Link
Blue_MiSfit
Derek Prestegard IRL
 
Blue_MiSfit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,925
I just do an unlisted youtube link for anything non sensitive. The quality is good enough for most
Blue_MiSfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th March 2021, 09:32   #11  |  Link
ReinerSchweinlin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 404
Optical Discs are very bad as an archive solution (Asmodian mentioned one exception - MDisc), some MO-Formats are a little better, but still not good. Archives around the world had to learn that lesson the hard way..
Making a Copy on several harddrives, stored at several places, putting it on a NAS, copying the content on new drives every few years, etc.... are better "strategies". Spread storage places and make multiple copies.
ReinerSchweinlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th March 2021, 18:17   #12  |  Link
rbauer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReinerSchweinlin View Post
Optical Discs are very bad as an archive solution (Asmodian mentioned one exception - MDisc), some MO-Formats are a little better, but still not good.
To me bd-r panasonic premium (original, from japan, by ebay) + dvdisaster are the better solution for archive strategy (I started around 10 years ago).

About dvdisaster (it's not a dead project), from manual:

---------------------
Advantages of reading at the image level. Reading at the image level uses direct communication with the drive firmware to access the data sectors.
The number of readable sectors depends only on the reading capabilities of the drive, but not on the state of the file system. A read error in one sector does not block access to other data sectors. Since all sectors are recovered which are still readable by the hardware, this method provides the best foundation for the error correction.
Another consideration is that the image contains all data sectors of the medium. When the image is completely recovered the file system stored within is also fully repaired. A protection at the image level is therefore more extensive than error correction at the file level.

dvdisaster is working exclusively at the image level to take advantage of these properties. The RS02 and RS03 methods even allow for storing the error correction data at the same medium.
This is possible since reading the error correction information at the image level can not be blocked by errors at other medium locations (damaged sectors with error correction data will reduce the error recovering capacity, but not make recovery impossible).
The RS01 method protects media at the image level, too, but stores the error correction data in files. The next section hints at some pitfalls arising from that.

Consequences for error correction file storage.
The error correction data created by dvdisaster protects media at the image level. But how are the error correction files protected?
Since error correction files are read at the file level they are subject to the problems discussed above. If the medium containing the error correction files becomes damaged it may not be possible to access or read them completely.
Therefore it is important to protect error correction files at the image level as well: Media containing error correction files must be protected with dvdisaster, too.
Since image level protection is assumed there is no further damage protection contained in the RS01 error correction files! This would not help much, anyways: Error correction files could be created in a way that allows them to provide a reduced data recovering capacity even when being damaged.
But however such internal protection would be designed, the error correction file would still be only protected at the file system level with all the disadvantages discussed above!
In addition, the computing time and redundancy used for internal protection is better spent at the image level: The Reed-Solomon error correction works best when error correction information is spread over huge amounts of data. It is better to protect the image as a whole than individually protecting each file within.
---------------------

Edit: forgot the url, dvdisaster

Last edited by rbauer; 27th March 2021 at 21:20.
rbauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th March 2021, 21:42   #13  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbauer View Post
To me bd-r panasonic premium (original, from japan, by ebay) + dvdisaster are the better solution for archive strategy (I started around 10 years ago).
Those things are expensive!

You can get 25 M-Disk single layer bluray disks for the price of two or three of those. M-Disk is rated for several hundred years instead of fifty. I don't see the point.

You can use dvdisaster on M-Disks too.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th March 2021, 23:07   #14  |  Link
rbauer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Those things are expensive!

You can get 25 M-Disk single layer bluray disks for the price of two or three of those.
I don't think so:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-B...IAAOSwZJlXMobd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
M-Disk is rated for several hundred years instead of fifty. I don't see the point.
That's just an Advertising slogan : bd-r M-Disk (I'm talking about bd-r, not dvds) are not better than good manufactured htl (not lth) bd-r discs (like premium or normal japan panasonic)

--------------------------------
The selling point of M-Disc DVD was that they used an inorganic phase change data layer instead of a organic dye. They also lacked a reflective layer.

Regular off-the-shelf HTL BD-R already use an inorganic phase change data layer. Plus the M-Disc BD-R do have a reflective layer unlike the M-Disc DVD.

They also read and write in standard Bluray burners and M-Disc did not perform any comparative testing on their BD-Rs in the way that they did with their DVDs.

M-Disc BD-R don't appear to differ in any significant way from a regular HTL BD-R. At best they are a good grade.

get any brand of HTL 50GB discs, works with most drives, and the HTL standard is the same as M-Disc, but not as costly."
--------------------------------
I thought that this was an interesting observation worth sharing: http://yss.la.coocan.jp/mdisc/mdisc_top.htm

Regular Panasonic HTL BD-R seems to hold better when boiled compared to Verbatim M-Disc BD-R.
--------------------------------
on: Optical Disc Data Rot

M-DISC is mostly irrelevant these days unless you want to use DVD for some reason.
The biggest benefit of M-DISC for DVDs was that it didn't use an organic dye, as those dyes tend to decay over time. The dominant BD-R recording mechanism (HTL) uses an inorganic recording medium so isn't affected by this problem.

There are differences in how BD-Rs are manufactured that can lead to big differences in longevity [0] but there are regular retail BD-Rs that outperform M-DISC in accelerated aging tests [1]. There are also DVD variants that outperform M-DISC [2].

Also, M-DISC hasn't produced any evidence for their BD-R discs. For their DVDs there were a few scientific studies they could point to that demonstrated their longevity, for BD-R they have no such evidence.

[0]: https://www.lne.fr/sites/default/fil...alite-bd-r.pdf

[1]: https://www.lne.fr/sites/default/fil...12-lambert.pdf

[2]: https://www.lne.fr/sites/default/fil...ing-report.pdf
--------------------------------

Last edited by rbauer; 28th March 2021 at 02:45.
rbauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2021, 01:35   #15  |  Link
Stereodude
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Region 0
Posts: 1,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Burnable bluray and DVDs die pretty fast unless you get MDisk blanks (expensive). They are not a good archival format.
Most Blu-ray blanks are HTL which should be good for decades as they are inorganic. Buy good ones and they'll outlast you.

Edit: I see rbauer has beaten me to the punch.

Last edited by Stereodude; 28th March 2021 at 01:37.
Stereodude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2021, 06:43   #16  |  Link
RanmaCanada
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 278
Everyone commenting about blurays is due to the Memorex discs that had inferior Ritek dye. The discs died in days/weeks and by months they were completely UN-readable. I used to be a news poster for cdfreaks waaaaaaaaay back in the day, and this was one of the biggest stories during that time. Also, LTH discs should be avoided like the plague. Only buy HTL, and ensure they are made in Japan, as anything made anywhere else 99% of the time uses inferior dye. Though we are off track here.

Last edited by RanmaCanada; 30th March 2021 at 22:03. Reason: fixing typo noticed by StainlessS
RanmaCanada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2021, 11:19   #17  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 10,152
Well if RanmaCanada is CdFreaks guy, then he should know his onions.

Typo, fix
Quote:
The discs died in days/weeks and by months they were completely UN-readable.
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2021, 12:13   #18  |  Link
ReinerSchweinlin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 404
For me, one important issue with backups is convinience.. Storing/ backuping everyting on distributed harddrives / NAS can easily be automated. Taking an old harddrive out of service and copying everything to a new storage is much easier than jugling with discs. With Smart-TVs, almost everyone owning a PC or Laptop, fire-tv/chromecast/etc. for a few bucks - the distribution over the internet is much easier than shipping discs around the world. Of course, it all depends on personal preferences.
ReinerSchweinlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2021, 23:00   #19  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Metropolitan City of Milan, Italy
Posts: 2,145
Just popping in to comment again here: from a professional point of view, everything other than LTO5, LTO6 etc is considered "unreliable" and those media are kept in a safe place without light and within a controlled environment (i.e constant temperature and very low humidity). In those conditions they can last 25 years. Data is generally stored on RAID6 storage solutions (ISIS, NEXIS, Isilon etc) and then "sent" to LTO for long term archive and if and only if the file is needed after a very long time, it is then "restored" and copied back from LTO to the RAID6 so that people can work on it.
Now, I know that we're talking about home users here, but this is just to put a bit of context and to disprove some "myths".
I mean, guys, nothing lasts forever, even with professional solutions, so if a professional LTO in a controlled environment has a life expectancy of 25 years, how long do you think a cheap writable Verbatim DVD is going to last?
Listen to those guys, they've been around for years and we know that those kind of storage types are not reliable, so don't put anything valuable in there.
And just to reiterate something that has already been said: you can have an old-fashioned RAID using a NAS like those from Synology etc to keep your data safe, which is far more reliable than using a CD/DVD or, since it's 2021, you can go to the cloud and pay one of the cloud storage providers to keep your data safe and backed up like Amazon, Google (Drive), Microsoft (One Drive) etc. Sure, you have to pay them, but those companies have been around for quite some time and it's very unlikely they'll go away anytime soon, so... you might just give it a go.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, the decision is of course yours; after all, I'm just a guy working in broadcast spending yet another sleepless night...

Last edited by FranceBB; 29th March 2021 at 23:02.
FranceBB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30th March 2021, 17:47   #20  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 10,152
Apparently, original DVD spec was supposed to be stable for something like 1000 years, when they
realized that it was a bit over-spec'ed then spec had longevity knocked down quite a bit. [fewer error detection/correction layers]
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
uhd 4k disc

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 19:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.