Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Capturing and Editing Video > New and alternative a/v containers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th July 2016, 03:33   #20921  |  Link
MrGlasspoole
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 22
Ok I'm lost.
If i understand it right then there is no way to decode Dolby Pro Logic on the PC. The same thing than also applies to "Dolby Digital EX" and "DTS-ES Matrix" where channel six is encoded into other channels?

What i can't find out if the receiver should auto detect Dolby Pro Logic and switch to it (and if does it work with RCA or just SPDIF)? Also how can i tell if a file has Dolby Pro Logic?
MrGlasspoole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2016, 05:45   #20922  |  Link
vood007
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGlasspoole View Post
Ok I'm lost.
If i understand it right then there is no way to decode Dolby Pro Logic on the PC.
FFDShow Audio can do this.
vood007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2016, 07:49   #20923  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 5,665
It is certainly possible to decode matrix surround formats on a PC. The decoder logic is usually known, at least in general, just as the encoder logic is (as used in DPL downmixes when converting multichannel audio to a format like MP3 which supports 2 channels at most); exceptions may exist, and license restrictions may exist as well. But there may be no way to detect it certainly in every digital audio stream. Some audio formats may support bitflags in their headers to indicate that the content may be matrix surround encoded, but on one hand this flag may not have been set by the encoding operator, and on the other hand there are also formats without such flags. So eventually it may be in the responsibility of the listener to enable surround decoding and check whether it sounds pleasant or not.
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2016, 17:17   #20924  |  Link
MrGlasspoole
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 22
Ok Wikipedia says DTS-ES Matrix has a flag and it seems right because MediInfo says about my file: Matrix and 7 channels.
But LAV Audio in MPC only shows DTS 6 channels in the status/output.

The DTS-ES Discrete file shows a BC...
But if you have 7.1 speakers shouldn't the BC not be copied to BL/BR?

I wonder how others deal with that kind of stuff if you want to use the 7.1 output on the sound card.
The thing is that the speakers i build are active and it makes no sense to buy a expensive AVR if you don't need or can use the amplifiers.
Then a lot of them also have no 7.1 input or mine is 7.1 but has just 5.1 in. So if i use the 5.1 in then 2 amplifiers are not used.

Then switching always by hand the modes on the AVR is also unpractical. Lets say i have a playlist mixed with Dolby Pro Logic music, stereo, mono...

If the PC could to Dolby Pro Logic/DTS-ES Matrix then i guess it would be possible to make a tag in JRiver MC and based on that tag let the PC switch?
MrGlasspoole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2016, 17:34   #20925  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 5,665
Dolby ProLogic and Dolby ProLogic II are made not to hurt material too much which does not contain ProLogic encoded surround information. There is a chance that it may be misinterpreted if it is just stereo, but the risk should be rather low. And if it is pure mono (left and right channels are identical), the result will be exactly in the center as desired, because the sum of both is all, and the difference of both is zero.
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2016, 19:42   #20926  |  Link
e-t172
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGlasspoole View Post
The DTS-ES Discrete file shows a BC...
But if you have 7.1 speakers shouldn't the BC not be copied to BL/BR?
In theory, what's supposed to happen in the case of DTS-ES Discrete is that LAV Audio will output 6.1 channels to the audio renderer, which (in the case of the default, standard renderer) will output 6.1 channels to the Windows audio engine, which (if the active speakers are configured as 7.1) will take care of upmixing BC to the appropriate rear speakers. I have no idea if that actually works in practice though, since I never play 6.1 files.
e-t172 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2016, 20:02   #20927  |  Link
MrGlasspoole
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by LigH View Post
Dolby ProLogic and Dolby ProLogic II are made not to hurt material too much which does not contain ProLogic encoded surround information. There is a chance that it may be misinterpreted if it is just stereo.
I thought stereo gets upmixed if you set the decoder to Dolby ProLogic?

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
DPL II processes any high quality stereo signal source into five separate full frequency channels (right front, center, left front, right rear and left rear).
MrGlasspoole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 07:08   #20928  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 5,665
Of course, using a ProLogic decoder always upmixes from 2 to more channels; whether or not their content makes sense, is a different issue. Ideally, the surround channels should contain audible content only in case the source was created from an original multi-channel audio with a ProLogic encoder. But due to the nature of the ProLogic systems, even stereo which has never been multi-channel audio before might get "decoded" to contain surround output, which would be a misinterpretation of general stereo with some unfortunate phase differences, and such scenes may sound weird. Or not. Depends on the specific case. And with "dual mono" sources, the output will still be multi-channel, but everything except the center channel should be rather silent.
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 11:39   #20929  |  Link
chros
Registered User
 
chros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
In theory, what's supposed to happen in the case of DTS-ES Discrete is that LAV Audio will output 6.1 channels to the audio renderer, which (in the case of the default, standard renderer) will output 6.1 channels to the Windows audio engine, which (if the active speakers are configured as 7.1) will take care of upmixing BC to the appropriate rear speakers. I have no idea if that actually works in practice though, since I never play 6.1 files.
Well, I'm not sure either that windows will upconvert it. It definitely doesn't for pure stereo sources, only if the soundcard supports it by hardware and driver (which most integrated ones don't).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGlasspoole View Post
Then switching always by hand the modes on the AVR is also unpractical. Lets say i have a playlist mixed with Dolby Pro Logic music, stereo, mono...
Not really, if you have a network capable AVR with full web setup interface, like my Yamaha RX-A830: you can set everything (! , every small bit of it) on the web inteface. After that you only need just a short time to come up with 3 small batch scripts for e.g. music, DPL, and pure movie profiles, like this:
Code:
REM set to Movie DPL mode: Vol -45 DB, Drama mode, Enhancer On, Straight Off , Adaptive_DRC Auto , Dialogue_Lvl 0
C:\Windows\wget.exe "http://192.168.1.71/YamahaRemoteControl/ctrl" --quiet -O NUL --header="Content-Type:text/xml" --post-data="<YAMAHA_AV cmd=\"PUT\"><Main_Zone><Volume><Lvl><Val>-450</Val><Exp>1</Exp><Unit>dB</Unit></Lvl></Volume><Sound_Video><Adaptive_DRC>Auto</Adaptive_DRC><Dialogue_Adjust><Dialogue_Lvl>0</Dialogue_Lvl></Dialogue_Adjust></Sound_Video><Surround><Program_Sel><HDMI_1><Enhancer>On</Enhancer><Sound_Program>Standard</Sound_Program><Straight>Off</Straight></HDMI_1></Program_Sel></Surround></Main_Zone></YAMAHA_AV>"
After that you can just double click on them, make them as scheduled task, or put it on your openwrt router (with a slight mod) and run it from cron. That's how I can wake up every morning listening to music as an alarm (with winamp+clockamp).

(I even control my milight/easybulb light bulbs in a similar way. )
__________________
Ryzen 5 2600,Asus Prime b450-Plus,16GB,MSI GTX 1060 Gaming X 6GB(v385.28),Win10 LTSB 1607,MPC-BEx64+LAV+MadVR,Yamaha RX-A870,LG 55LD650(1080p@23/24/50/59/60Hz)

Last edited by chros; 12th July 2016 at 11:43.
chros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 13:23   #20930  |  Link
e-t172
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
Well, I'm not sure either that windows will upconvert it. It definitely doesn't for pure stereo sources, only if the soundcard supports it by hardware and driver (which most integrated ones don't).
That's not the same thing. If you're playing stereo (LR content) over 5.1, no processing is necessary - Windows just maps input channel L to speaker L and input channel R to speaker R, as it should. The situation is different when playing 6.1 over 5.1/7.1 - there the input contains a BC channel, but there is no BC speaker. In that case Windows has to reroute BC to other speakers (such as BL or BR), otherwise you would lose the channel.

The same situation occurs when you play 5.1 content on a stereo setup - the Windows audio engine will automatically mix C, SL, SR and LFE into the L and R speakers as appropriate.

When playing stereo over a 5.1 setup, Windows will play the content as-is. It will not apply any kind of "clever" upmixing algorithm. Which is perfectly reasonable: stereo is stereo, it was mixed in stereo, mastered in stereo, and is meant to played in stereo. You might disagree, but that would be a matter of preference/taste, not accuracy. Windows is just being conservative and following the principle of least surprise.
e-t172 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 13:25   #20931  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,440
Windows likes to choke on 6.1 content, the back channel might vanish without mixing even on a 7.1 output, which is why LAV has the option to expand the back channel to two back surround channel for 7.1.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 14:33   #20932  |  Link
Sunset1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 261
Quote:
Some users in the madvr forum reported, that with AMD RX480 DXVA CB does not work with HEVC and 10bit files ( using latest LAV filters ). Is this a driver problem with AMD?
I think it was me.

Figured this out when comparing RX480 with GTX1070.

Is anyone here already using a new AMD rx480? Are you experiencing the same issues? (green screen when selecting copyback decoding in LAV when running HEVC files)

Is HEVC decoding working on older AMD cards?

If this problem can be corrected, I would buy an RX480...
__________________
Intel i5 6600, 16 GB DDR4, AMD RX480 8 GB, Windows 10 x64, Kodi DS Player 17.6, MadVR (x64), LAV Filters (x64), XySubfilter .746 (x64)
LG 4K OLED (65C8D), Denon X-4200 AVR, Dali Zensor 5.1 Set
Sunset1982 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 15:46   #20933  |  Link
blaubart
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 42
Lately I stumbeled over a rare 10-bit UHD demo containing some banding in the backgrounds.

To try it with madVR I had to switch LAV from DXVA2 native to copy-back (GTX960). First i thought madVR did the imressive dithering. But later I switched back to MPC-HC's EVR Custom and the dithering was still the same. Then LAV back to DXVA2 native and the banding came back.

So I wondered 'is copy-back so good or native so bad?' and switched LAV to 'None' > good - nearly the same as copy-back.
Since native at the moment is best for UHD-TV with DVBViewer (Nvidia GTX950/960 and AMD RX480) - would it be possible to give native the dithering of copy-back?

Has anybody a working 10-bit setup? How about the banding in a 10-bit TV?

In the video I collected the banding scenes - sorry for some bad cuts - my cutting soft is still not so good with HEVC without rerendering.
https://dc2.safesync.com/FdSVjnr/off...?a=zAINxh7PTtc

native-banding:


copy-back
blaubart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 15:51   #20934  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,440
LAV just outputs the image as close to the original as possible. With DXVA2 Native its output entirely untouched, no conversion and no dithering, and any further processing is up to the video renderer (this also cannot be changed, its just an inherent property of native decoding)
With DXVA2-CopyBack, the video renderer doesn't even know that LAV is performing hardware decoding and just gets an ordinary image (just like software decoding), in whichever format it accepts. For madVR this will be pure 10-bit, for EVR this will be dithered 8-bit.

Its certainly possible that 10-bit DXVA2 Native results in a poor conversion in the video renderer, for madVR depending on the settings chosen (specifically the DXVA settings in the trade quality for performance section), and for EVR in general.
Note that madVR on NVIDIA cards will always produce a bit of chroma bluring when used with DXVA2-Native, so its not recommended for the highest quality results.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 16:16   #20935  |  Link
blaubart
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 42
Thanks for the info.
Well, scenes as seen in the video are really rare in 'normal' UHD-life at the moment. So I'm happy with 'native'.

Quote:
Note that madVR on NVIDIA cards will always produce a bit of chroma bluring when used with DXVA2-Native, so its not recommended for the highest quality results.
On my Nvidia and reported on a AMD RX480 madVR delivers a black screen with 32-bit DVBViewer at 3840*2160 fullscreen + LAV native. Also madVR's D3D fullsreen exclusive modes sometimes cause heavy crashes with copy-back. So I take EVR Custom.

Last edited by blaubart; 12th July 2016 at 22:35.
blaubart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 22:35   #20936  |  Link
blaubart
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 42
p.s. just tested
..black screen not only using 32-bit DVBViewer but also MPC-HC x64 - nothing changed since (remember?):
http://www.dvbviewer.tv/forum/topic/...hevc/?p=432470
blaubart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 22:45   #20937  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by blaubart View Post
p.s. just tested
..black screen not only using 32-bit DVBViewer but also MPC-HC x64 - nothing changed since (remember?):
http://www.dvbviewer.tv/forum/topic/...hevc/?p=432470
That's not a LAV issue, it just delivers the image , it doesn't display it.

In my personal experience madVR with DXVA2 Native just isn't the best combination. Luckily copy back is darn efficient these days , at least on NVIDIA .
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 22:55   #20938  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,126
Works fine here, are you using the latest madVR build, blaubart? Anyway, if you still get the black screen with the latest madVR build, this is likely a madVR issue, so OT here.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2016, 00:19   #20939  |  Link
blaubart
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 42
@ nevcairiel
..no need to defend LAV at all ! As you may have noticed from earlier (mostly German) posts I'm the greatest admirer of your work! Ok I must confess I sometimes see threads not only as topic-knight but as voice to the world hoping to attain sth. unexpected...

@ madshi
sorry, just updated from 0.90.21 to 0.90.22 with no success - LAV native 3840*2160 fullscreen still black (Win10, GTX960, newest NVidia driver, madVR set to default). Black even if everything in 'general settings' is unchecked (D3D9, no FSE).
You're right that's OT here but in my defense I've never written anything in your thread here before and since our war years ago. Your madVR thread is also too fast for me. New posts come within seconds. I hate that..

Last edited by blaubart; 13th July 2016 at 00:28.
blaubart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2016, 02:42   #20940  |  Link
MrGlasspoole
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Windows likes to choke on 6.1 content, the back channel might vanish without mixing even on a 7.1 output, which is why LAV has the option to expand the back channel to two back surround channel for 7.1.
So for a 7.1 system it's always right to set "Expand 6.1 to 7.1"?

But there is still one thing i wonder about.
If i play a DTS-ES Discrete file then i have output on BL/BR/BC..
Isn't 5.1 not SL/SR:
http://ask.creative.com/wwimages/gen...udio_im13..gif

Sure with the setting above most stuff comes from SL/SR and BL/BR has the same level (mono).

Then i have DD+ 7.1 files where MediaInfo says E-AC-3 but LAV shows only ac3 and SL/SR in the status tab...

Sorry for all the questions. But if you search the web for this stuff most answers are what everybody thinks is right.
And on the DTS site i can't find a setup (speaker placement) guide.

Last edited by MrGlasspoole; 13th July 2016 at 05:29.
MrGlasspoole is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
decoders, directshow, filters, splitter

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.