Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > VP9 and AV1

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 30th October 2020, 07:39   #2321  |  Link
Blue_MiSfit
Derek Prestegard IRL
 
Blue_MiSfit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,988
Aw geez Intel! Yeah, I was pretty shocked to see this in the first place. Too bad it was a typo
Blue_MiSfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2020, 21:20   #2322  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,750
As Ice Lake is now shipping and we're getting some results from it, I've started a new Sticky to cover hardware AV1 decoding. As usage ramps up, having a single AV1 thread won't be practical before long.

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=182011
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book

Last edited by benwaggoner; 30th October 2020 at 21:21. Reason: Added URL
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2020, 21:37   #2323  |  Link
soresu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
They use a customized RDNA 2 GPU, which has been announced as having AV1 decode support.
This slide would seem to refute that assumption:



The GPU shader/CU microarchitecture and the VCN encoder/decoder architecture are not fused to each other from what I can gather about it, especially as it has been said that the design of at least one console SoC was already set in stone 2 years ago when AV1 had only just become standardised.

Having said that both consoles do have an 8 core CPU that could easily handle 4K24p for 8 bit content using dav1d.

Sadly davi1d still has not so much as a lick of 10/12/16 bit SIMD assembly for AVX2 or SSSE3.

My Zen1 based R7 1700 can barely manage some 10 bit 4K24p clips without skipping frames, but the Zen2 based CPU in the new consoles should fair a bit better, though I doubt it could even come close to managing 4K60p unless either Sony or Microsoft has made their own decoder with optimised 10 bit SIMD assembly (which itself is not a great stretch of imagination considering their massive resources).

Last edited by soresu; 30th October 2020 at 21:41.
soresu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2020, 22:23   #2324  |  Link
soresu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
My understanding is that none of the new gen GPUs have HW AV1 encoding. Given its complexity, it may be pretty hard to get meaningful compression efficiency gains out of the mm^2 a GPU vendor is willing to devote to encode. The quality@perf math can be very different for a GPU.
AMD's acquisition of Xilinx could make that an interesting possibility for the future on the AMD side at least.
soresu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2020, 03:40   #2325  |  Link
soresu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTPVHD View Post
AV1 isn't mentioned in that announcement at all?
soresu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2020, 13:43   #2326  |  Link
Yups
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
My understanding is that none of the new gen GPUs have HW AV1 encoding. Given its complexity, it may be pretty hard to get meaningful compression efficiency gains out of the mm^2 a GPU vendor is willing to devote to encode. The quality@perf math can be very different for a GPU.

I have to add that according to Notebookcheck Alder Lake will support AV1 accelerated encode and as we know it's still based on Xe LP. On a further note in the Intel graphics driver since a month there is a file called "Intel Hybrid AV1 Encoder MFT".


Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
As Ice Lake is now shipping and we're getting some results from it, I've started a new Sticky to cover hardware AV1 decoding. As usage ramps up, having a single AV1 thread won't be practical before long.

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=182011
You made a mistake there. Icelake doesn't support AV1, it's Tigerlake.

Last edited by Yups; 1st November 2020 at 18:21.
Yups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th November 2020, 00:28   #2327  |  Link
VincAlastor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Berlin
Posts: 173
Amlogic S905X4 Android TV & RDK developer kit ships with ATSC, DVB, or ISDB tuners
Video Decoding

AV1 MP-10 L5.1 up to 4Kx2K @ 60fps

https://www.cnx-software.com/2020/11...r-isdb-tuners/
VincAlastor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2020, 09:24   #2328  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 6,753
New uploads: (MSYS2; MinGW32 / MinGW64: GCC 10.2.0)

AOM v2.0.0-1023-gd198b8e9f

rav1e 0.4.0-alpha (9569901a / 2020-11-16)

dav1d 0.7.1 (ffd052b / 2020-11-16)

avif 0.8.3-bf58fe7
dav1d [dec]:0.7.1, aom [enc/dec]:2.0.0-1020-geda52bb92, rav1e [enc]:0.4.0-alpha (p20201110-4-g9569901a)
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid

Last edited by LigH; 17th November 2020 at 10:36.
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2020, 22:26   #2329  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,750
Anyone get a Xbox Series X|S or PS5 and had a chance to try to play back any AV1 content yet?

I would try it in a .mp4 container as it is less likely Sony/Microsoft added demuxing for others.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2020, 23:11   #2330  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 6,753
I may ask among the Twitch gamers I know (but doubt they know the AV1 video codec at all)...
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2020, 23:16   #2331  |  Link
soresu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
Anyone get a Xbox Series X|S or PS5 and had a chance to try to play back any AV1 content yet?

I would try it in a .mp4 container as it is less likely Sony/Microsoft added demuxing for others.
It seems I was wrong and there indeed is an AV1 decoder for all XB1+ models in the works, mostly using the GPU for maximum CPU offload (you know, cos Jaguar is so great and all).

Link here to the repo on googlesource.

Last edited by soresu; 25th November 2020 at 23:40.
soresu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2020, 23:19   #2332  |  Link
soresu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 196
The Xbox decoder seems rooted to UWP and HLSL, but I imagine it could probably be reworked to use GLSL and a more cross platform software architecture than UWP.
soresu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2020, 23:39   #2333  |  Link
soresu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 196
Ah, someone on the AV1 discord got the me the Xbox decoder PDF through the git clone SW - good thing as I'm useless with that stuff.

Link here.
soresu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2020, 17:02   #2334  |  Link
hajj_3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,120
Qualcomm announced their new snapdragon 888 today, it is the new name for the snapdragon 875. Unfortunately it doesn't support hardware decoding of AV1
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16271...88-deep-dive/4
https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releas...obile-platform

Last edited by hajj_3; 2nd December 2020 at 17:05.
hajj_3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2020, 02:00   #2335  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajj_3 View Post
Qualcomm announced their new snapdragon 888 today, it is the new name for the snapdragon 875. Unfortunately it doesn't support hardware decoding of AV1
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16271...88-deep-dive/4
https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releas...obile-platform
This was a surprise to me, as I had thought Google was requiring HW AV1 decode in this time frame.

Given Qualcomm's market share, this is really going to limit the utility of AV1 in mobile until 2022 at the earliest. Especially for premium content with HW DRM requirements.

And it was really at the low bitrates used in mobile where AV1's potential efficiency improvements were the most promising and relevant.

For 2021, I have a hard time seeing all that much value in doing AV1 other than for targeting Firefox or Chrome, which artificially block the use of HEVC HW decoders available to the underlying system. The Chromium/WebKit derived Edge and Safari can play HEVC content just fine. Switching from H.264 to AV1 clearly can offer big efficiency/quality improvements. But is adding a whole new codec any easier than asking users to use the default browser or a native Windows/Mac app? It's not like H.264 can be deprecated yet.

For everywhere but browsers, HEVC support is pretty universal, and I've yet to see compelling demonstrations of big-enough to bother improvements going from HEVC-to-AV1. HEVC can look pretty darn good given as much encoding time as AV1.

Film grain removal/parameterization/synthesis is a very promising feature for some classes of content, but there isn't production-grade robust tooling available to even really estimate the value of it, let alone use it by default in high-volume content publishing.

If AV1 misses 2021, 2022+ is quite likely will have competition from VVC and EVC.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2020, 08:55   #2336  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
This was a surprise to me, as I had thought Google was requiring HW AV1 decode in this time frame.
888 will able to decode 4K 8bit 30fps AV1 in software just fine though battery life will be hugely affected.

Qualcomm often adds new codecs in their lower tier SoCs, so I guess 7XX/6XX/5XX/4XX/whatever SoC which they will release next year will support HW AV1 decoding.
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2020, 10:26   #2337  |  Link
hajj_3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
Qualcomm often adds new codecs in their lower tier SoCs, so I guess 7XX/6XX/5XX/4XX/whatever SoC which they will release next year will support HW AV1 decoding.
They might never support av1, they might be trying to force EVC to get some marketshare.
hajj_3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2020, 11:31   #2338  |  Link
Blue_MiSfit
Derek Prestegard IRL
 
Blue_MiSfit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,988
Echoing what both Ben and I have said several times on this forum - hardware DRM requires hardware decode, and is mandatory for premium content. That's a big deal.
Blue_MiSfit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2020, 11:38   #2339  |  Link
hbbs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 9
I think you're onto to something. Because dragging its feet like they clearly did this time. Not only they are creating an opportunity to position EVC against AV1. But also as a "reasonable alternative" to VVC when time comes.

Let's see if Google will play hardball with them. What I'm about to post is from last April.

https://www.axios.com/scoop-google-r...9cf68908c.html

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk

Last edited by hbbs; 3rd December 2020 at 11:41.
hbbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2020, 12:01   #2340  |  Link
soresu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Posts: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
For 2021, I have a hard time seeing all that much value in doing AV1 other than for targeting Firefox or Chrome, which artificially block the use of HEVC HW decoders available to the underlying system. The Chromium/WebKit derived Edge and Safari can play HEVC content just fine. Switching from H.264 to AV1 clearly can offer big efficiency/quality improvements. But is adding a whole new codec any easier than asking users to use the default browser or a native Windows/Mac app? It's not like H.264 can be deprecated yet.

For everywhere but browsers, HEVC support is pretty universal, and I've yet to see compelling demonstrations of big-enough to bother improvements going from HEVC-to-AV1. HEVC can look pretty darn good given as much encoding time as AV1.

If AV1 misses 2021, 2022+ is quite likely will have competition from VVC and EVC.
A lack of prevalent VP9 HW support didn't stop Google from pushing it for Youtube, and I doubt it will be any different for AV1.

Especially when there is already far better SW decoding for AV1 than VP9 had at the equivalent time from release, coupled with far more performant mobile CPU cores to decode it with - Apple aside the best ARM core at the time was A57 at around 2 Ghz, now we have X1 at around 2.84 Ghz which has to be more than 3x faster at least.

I imagine that Qualcomm didn't want to support VP9 either to begin with, but it eventually ended up in there as will AV1 in good time - whether that actually happens before AV2 is released is a different story.

It's also worth noting that for all Qualcomm's market dominance elsewhere, China and India's market will probably be populated with many handsets that use Mediatek SoC's that do support AV1 - and their combined populations/potential market are not something to sniff at for sure.
soresu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 23:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.