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Old 16th February 2024, 06:29   #21  |  Link
rwill
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Well if one does not need inter layer prediction it is pretty easy to merge two HEVC streams into one MV-HEVC stream...

Doing inter layer is pretty easy too if one can modify the reference picture list setup of layer > 0.

I wonder why there is no patch for x265 yet.
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Old 16th February 2024, 22:19   #22  |  Link
benwaggoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwill View Post
Well if one does not need inter layer prediction it is pretty easy to merge two HEVC streams into one MV-HEVC stream...

Doing inter layer is pretty easy too if one can modify the reference picture list setup of layer > 0
And interlayer is pretty important! That gives ~20% instead of 100% added bitrate for stereo 3D.

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I wonder why there is no patch for x265 yet.
Why? It's work that engineers would have to do instead of doing something else.

Among other things, x265 would need a way to input multiple synchronized sources to encode from. Getting interlayer working, including rate control. Getting all the signaling working and tested. The R&D is much more D than R, but it's still work for multiple developers for multiple months.
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Old 16th February 2024, 22:36   #23  |  Link
kagami.h
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Ben, could you please look at https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...69#post1997769
I made a post here, but then it disappeared for some reason.
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Old 17th February 2024, 09:45   #24  |  Link
rwill
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Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
And interlayer is pretty important! That gives ~20% instead of 100% added bitrate for stereo 3D.
Well from my tests the second layer is more like 40%-70% of the first layer, depending on how clean the content is or if there is grain etc. For real 3D Cinema content anyway. Sure one can make the second view a little worse quality but this was not accepted here.

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Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
Why? It's work that engineers would have to do instead of doing something else.

Among other things, x265 would need a way to input multiple synchronized sources to encode from. Getting interlayer working, including rate control. Getting all the signaling working and tested. The R&D is much more D than R, but it's still work for multiple developers for multiple months.
Strange, I know of one HEVC production encoder that got extended to MV-HEVC where it took a single engineer around 2 weeks, including changing certain parts of the reference decoder for testing.
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Old 17th February 2024, 12:04   #25  |  Link
kagami.h
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Originally Posted by rwill View Post
Well from my tests the second layer is more like 40%-70% of the first layer, depending on how clean the content is or if there is grain etc. For real 3D Cinema content anyway. Sure one can make the second view a little worse quality but this was not accepted here.
Right, they report 32% savings for MV-HEVC versus simulcast in the paper.
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Old 26th March 2024, 05:50   #26  |  Link
MSwanson
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Thought I'd weigh-in on some of this. For context, I've written a bit about what Apple is doing with MV-HEVC here: https://blog.mikeswanson.com/post/74.../spatial-video

Also, the Apple streams I've looked at show ~50% savings for the second layer. Interestingly, this doesn't appear to be the same encoder as what is currently provided in AVFoundation. Or at least it's a much more customized/future version. As far as I can tell, AVFoundation (Mac, iPhone, and Vision Pro) is encoding two separate HEVC streams and stitching them together with no inherent savings or inter-layer prediction. The AVFoundation encoder also doesn't seem to support multi-pass encoding or rate control beyond simple bitrate averages. I'm hoping that all of this improves with an upcoming release or perhaps at WWDC24.
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Old 27th March 2024, 23:58   #27  |  Link
benwaggoner
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Originally Posted by MSwanson View Post
Thought I'd weigh-in on some of this. For context, I've written a bit about what Apple is doing with MV-HEVC here: https://blog.mikeswanson.com/post/74.../spatial-video

Also, the Apple streams I've looked at show ~50% savings for the second layer. Interestingly, this doesn't appear to be the same encoder as what is currently provided in AVFoundation. Or at least it's a much more customized/future version. As far as I can tell, AVFoundation (Mac, iPhone, and Vision Pro) is encoding two separate HEVC streams and stitching them together with no inherent savings or inter-layer prediction. The AVFoundation encoder also doesn't seem to support multi-pass encoding or rate control beyond simple bitrate averages. I'm hoping that all of this improves with an upcoming release or perhaps at WWDC24.
Yeah, the 32% efficiency improvement always seemed much lower than what should be achievable with a perceptually optimized encode; most times the eyes look pretty similar, with big regions often identical.

I'm pleased but unsurprised Apple has done better.
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