Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > New and alternative video codecs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12th June 2024, 22:33   #1001  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurkosdr View Post
You mean like how Hollywood studios picked the winner of the HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray format war by deciding one day to only throw content at one format (Blu-Ray) while letting the other rot (HD-DVD)? This happened shortly after BD+ gave studios the hope of unbreakable DRM. Whatever studio support HD-DVD had dried up right there and then.
It was more that Sony, who had thought they bet Blu-ray on the success of the PS3, realized they'd also bet the PS3 on the success of Blu-ray, and spent about $1B paying studios to adopt Blu-ray and drop HD-DVD.

Quote:
Or how Hollywood studios cut out MacOS X from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD support because MacOS X didn't provide the DRM infrastructure Hollywood studios demanded for Blu-Ray and HD-DVD?
Given that better content security than DVD was a core motivation for new disc formats, it was utterly expected that they weren't going to support a "just buy a Mac!" sized hole for pirates to drive through.

Expected by Apple as well, who knew what they needed to do to support HW encryption, and got it as part of their Intel transition.

Quote:
It doesn't matter what happened in the distant past, today pre-recorded content is king and DRM is legally empowered by the DMCA. Hollywood studios can cut out from their encrypted content whatever OS and hardware combination doesn't comply with their arbitrary demands.
Studios could only invalidate DRM keys for content on their own wholly-owned streaming services, and I am not aware of them ever doing so. Content distributed by other streaming services control their own DRM keys.

And their demands for secure video paths and HW license stores are hardly "arbitrary" - they have been well documented and understood for years.

Quote:
The weird thing in this case is that HDMI 2.1 is required only if you want 4K@120fps, and Hollywood doesn't serve any 4K@120fps content, but they can still mandate all kinds of DRM requirements by acting as gatekeepers to the HDMI spec. DisplayPort is technically a thing but isn't a thing on TVs (due to lack of eARC support), so you want at least one HDMI 2.1 port if you want to output 4K@120fps to a TV (which means GPU vendors can't boycott HDMI 2.1). And then there is the open question of whether encrypted 8K content will be allowed on DisplayPort or be HDMI 2.1-only.
I'm missing your point here. Pretty much the only things that can play out HDMI 2.1 so far are recent GPUs and game consoles. Most streaming media players and all disc players are still on HDMI 2.0, and some other than that.

Also, you can do DisplayPort to HDMI 2.1 with an adaptor. Nvidia's professional A-series GPUs have 4 DP and no HDMI ports, so I've used an external adaptor to get 120 fps, which has worked well.

The lack of eARC isn't why TVs don't have DisplayPort input. It's more than TV SoCs don't have support for it, so it would be quite expensive to add it.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 13:39   #1002  |  Link
kurkosdr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
It was more that Sony, who had thought they bet Blu-ray on the success of the PS3, realized they'd also bet the PS3 on the success of Blu-ray, and spent about $1B paying studios to adopt Blu-ray and drop HD-DVD.
HD-DVD was also paying studios, but AACS had already been cracked by then, so the very moment BD+ arrived of Blu-Ray (giving studios the hope of uncrackable DRM), all studios dropped HD-DVD immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
Given that better content security than DVD was a core motivation for new disc formats, it was utterly expected that they weren't going to support a "just buy a Mac!" sized hole for pirates to drive through.
My point is, studios will cut out more popular platforms than Desktop Linux if they don't get the DRM infrastructure they want, so the "boycott" suggested by another person won't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
Studios could only invalidate DRM keys for content on their own wholly-owned streaming services, and I am not aware of them ever doing so. Content distributed by other streaming services control their own DRM keys.

And their demands for secure video paths and HW license stores are hardly "arbitrary" - they have been well documented and understood for years.
My point is, the DMCA's doesn't define what copyright holders can demand as part of the DRM infrastructure. If studios decide one day to require a DNA sample, all hardware vendors out there will have to incorporate it into their hardware to gain access to Hollywood content. I am absurd on purpose, but it shows the absurdity of the DMCA's anticircumvention provisions.

And yes, their demands are arbitrary. Just look how Microsoft jumped through every DRM hoop there is out there only for Disney to decree that Disney+ will only be available in 720p on Windows (on Edge and on the Microsoft Store app). Funny thing is, pirates are extracting CDMs from tablets and Smart TVs so the interwebs is still full of Disney WEB-DL torrents (in 4K HDR). But if you are a customer and have a Windows-centric UHD setup, you are screwed even if you've ensured your setup is compliant with the highest tier Widevines and PlayReadys. Did I say arbitrary? I did.

Last edited by kurkosdr; Yesterday at 13:51.
kurkosdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 17:32   #1003  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurkosdr View Post
HD-DVD was also paying studios, but AACS had already been cracked by then, so the very moment BD+ arrived of Blu-Ray (giving studios the hope of uncrackable DRM), all studios dropped HD-DVD immediately.
HD-DVD and Blu-ray coexisted on the market for over a year, from October 2006 to January 2008.


Wikipedia has a decent overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-d...isc_format_war

I was working on Microsoft's HD-DVD throughout that period, and paid a lot of attention to the blow-by-blows of what was happening inside the industry as well as for the consumers.

Quote:
My point is, studios will cut out more popular platforms than Desktop Linux if they don't get the DRM infrastructure they want, so the "boycott" suggested by another person won't work.
I'm not sure what you think rights holders should do instead? Leave gaping security holes just so people on low market share operating systems with older hardware can play optical disks instead of just buying a player?

Quote:
And yes, their demands are arbitrary. Just look how Microsoft jumped through every DRM hoop there is out there only for Disney to decree that Disney+ will only be available in 720p on Windows (on Edge and on the Microsoft Store app). Funny thing is, pirates are extracting CDMs from tablets and Smart TVs so the interwebs is still full of Disney WEB-DL torrents (in 4K HDR). But if you are a customer and have a Windows-centric UHD setup, you are screwed even if you've ensured your setup is compliant with the highest tier Widevines and PlayReadys. Did I say arbitrary? I did.
Studio DRM rules are complex, but a lot hinges on software versus hardware DRM, secure license stores, and that sort of thing. The lower the security, the lower quality of content can be licensed. Pretty much anything can do 480p, most 720p, the large majority 1080p, with UHD and HDR the most limited, and almost never in web browsers to date (more feasible in desktop apps). While the issues are certainly complex, often confusing, and commonly have compromises to balance security and market size, they are absolutely not arbitrary.

IIRC, getting full SL3000 level security on Windows requires Windows 11, a GPU from the last few years, and TPM 2.0. Last I looked maybe 18 months ago, <10% of Windows PCs met those requirements (it's certainly higher now but still well less than 50%).

No one believes that any specific technical means would cause piracy to vanish! The goal is to make piracy more difficult to do and make it easier to potentially identify who pirated the video. That discourages piracy-by-default by a casual mass of customers. Piracy being a hassle means more people decide it's just a better use of their time and money to get the content legitimately. And we've seen that the combination of having piracy of the best quality version more challenging while having affordable and easy to use official ways to access the content is highly successful.

But piracy can't be stopped outright, and everyone involved in content protection knows it. The "photon exploit" of putting a really good camera on a tripod aimed at a really good TV in a dark room isn't closable. But that exploit is an expensive hassle, and runs the risk of forensic watermarking identifying who pirated the content.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.