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Old 11th December 2017, 17:47   #1  |  Link
hajj_3
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DTS audio patents expiration date?

https://dts.com/patents-bd-dvd-players/

On this link there is "DTS Digital Surround" and "2.0 + Digital Out".

"DTS Digital Surround" patents:

European patent 0864146: http://www.google.com/patents/EP0864146 - expired?
U.S patent 5,956,674: https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5956674 - expired?
U.S patent 5,974,380: https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5974380 - expired?
U.S patent 5,978,762: https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5978762 - expired?
U.S patent 6,487,535: https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6487535 - expired?

"2.0 + Digital Out" patents:

European patent 0864146: http://www.google.com/patents/EP0864146 - expired?
European patent 1741093: http://www.google.com/patents/EP1741093 - anticipated expiration: 2025-03-21
U.S patent 5,956,674: https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5956674 - expired?
U.S patent 5,974,380: https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5974380 - expired?
U.S patent 5,978,762: https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5978762 - expired?
U.S patent 6,487,535: https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6487535 - expired?
U.S patent 7,333,929: https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US7333929 - expired?
U.S patent 7,548,853: https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US7548853 - adjusted expiration: 2027-02-06

6 February 2027 is the date that the last u.s patent expires and march 21st 2025 for the last european patents for the 2.0 + digital out patents. The surround sound patents seemed to have expired in 2019.

If a software dvd player for computers wanted to playback movie dvds that contain a DTS audio track, would it need any of the patents in the "2.0 and digital out" patents list?

Last edited by hajj_3; 13th November 2023 at 16:16.
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Old 12th December 2017, 12:21   #2  |  Link
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Do these patents expire 20yrs after the filing date or granted date?
Filing date.

Yet one has to be very careful (I sense a dark force raising here ), as usually the whole thing is more likely a whole package, patents, designs, copyrights and stuff, all nicely packaged and put in the hands of the respective companies.

In the US there are cases of reissued patents.

And most of the patents are actually slight improvements, still covering the old "inventions", which are still "dangerous" for the public to touch. That's why a patent attorney is paid so much, to use any trick possible to get more coverage and duration for his client.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 17:22   #3  |  Link
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It looks like a load of these patents have expired, it seems that the DTS surround sound patents have now expired i think.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 17:58   #4  |  Link
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Unlike earlier series the Samsung TVs 2018 and 2019 models don't have DTS anymore. If the patents expired today, ideally, they'd add DTS support via firmware.
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Old 15th April 2019, 09:48   #5  |  Link
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It looks like a load of these patents have expired, it seems that the DTS surround sound patents have now expired i think.
But are probably wrapped into the DTS-X patents.
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Old 15th April 2019, 11:52   #6  |  Link
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Yes and suddenly "due to technical limitations" or "no consumer demand" support for these expired audio format will be dropped of devices and "new, better faster stronger" formats are in their place.
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Old 15th April 2019, 12:15   #7  |  Link
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Yes and suddenly "due to technical limitations" or "no consumer demand" support for these expired audio format will be dropped of devices and "new, better faster stronger" formats are in their place.
No, quite the opposite, DTS will become more common on tv's. This is due to 720p/1080p/ bluray rips often using DTS audio tracks. This is why a lot of tv's have added DTS support over the last small number of years, consumers were angry that their files wouldn't play so they bought a brand that did support DTS. Now that patents may possibly have ended we will see all new tv's support it.

We will start seeing Dolby AC-4 added to tv's soon though as it offers great compression and features and only costs $1.20 to license in small volume and $0.15 for huge volume. It is also free if you are paying for a Dolby Digital Plus licence so i suspect that Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby AC-4 will become standard on all new tv's within the next couple of years.

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Old 15th April 2019, 15:59   #8  |  Link
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Unlike earlier series the Samsung TVs 2018 and 2019 models don't have DTS anymore.
It's the same with Panasonic TV's too (from 2017 on-wards)...
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Old 27th November 2023, 18:00   #9  |  Link
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I have found the patents for DTS, the standard is TS 102 114. You can find the IPR declarations for it here and here

The last US patent expired on 2020-05-10
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Old 27th November 2023, 20:31   #10  |  Link
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I have found the patents for DTS, the standard is TS 102 114. You can find the IPR declarations for it here and here

The last US patent expired on 2020-05-10
Strange we aren't seeing it everywhere now (like you can find AC3 support in bottom-range HDTV receivers now, without any mention of the word "Dolby" of course). MxPlayer for Android and AndroidTV also hasn't restored DTS support (it has restored AC3 support). Are companies still scared of DTS litigation?

PS: I hate DTS. It exists solely for the benefit of people who think they need 7.1 discrete channels (when 5.1 discrete channels with matrix-encoded additional channels is fine) and for people who think a higher bitrate axiomatically means better quality (ignoring the inefficiency of ADPCM compared to MDCT), but it's used just widely enough to be a necessity.

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Old 27th November 2023, 20:41   #11  |  Link
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Originally Posted by kurkosdr View Post

PS: I hate DTS. It exists solely for the benefit of people who think they need 7.1 discrete channels (when 5.1 discrete channels with matrix-encoded additional channels is fine) and for people who think a higher bitrate axiomatically means better quality (ignoring the inefficiency of ADPCM compared to MDCT), but it's used just widely enough to be a necessity.

Exactly how I feel about DTS. I couldn't have put it better!
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Old 27th November 2023, 20:44   #12  |  Link
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Exactly how I feel about DTS. I couldn't have put it better!
Forgot to say about the people who think they need lossless audio in their movies. DTS has found a niche in Blu-Ray in the form of DTS-HD MA, but IMO it shouldn't be allowed out of Blu-Ray without conversion to AC3.
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Old 27th November 2023, 20:50   #13  |  Link
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PS: I hate DTS. It exists solely for the benefit of people who think they need 7.1 discrete channels (when 5.1 discrete channels with matrix-encoded additional channels is fine) and for people who think a higher bitrate axiomatically means better quality...
Eh? Lossy DTS offers the same number of channels as lossy Dolby Digital. No more!
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Old 27th November 2023, 20:52   #14  |  Link
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Forgot to say about the people who think they need lossless audio in their movies. DTS has found a niche in Blu-Ray in the form of DTS-HD MA, but IMO it shouldn't be allowed out of Blu-Ray without conversion to AC3.
Eh? So has Dolby in the form of Dolby TrueHD and Atmos!
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Old 27th November 2023, 21:15   #15  |  Link
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Eh? So has Dolby in the form of Dolby TrueHD and Atmos!
The problem with Dolby TrueHD is that it requires an AC3 "companion stream" because Dolby TrueHD is not an extension of AC3 but an entirely new format. This results in more complex audio options in the Blu-Ray menus. Instead, DTS-HD MA is a backwards-compatible extension of DTS (and all Blu-Ray players are required to support DTS) so there is no choice of stream to be made (not for the same language anyway). DTS-HD MA is still used on Blu-Rays that don't have Atmos precisely because it can satisfy the lossless audio marketing gimmick with only one stream per language.

And yes, it's a marketing gimmick because most Blu-Rays have watermarking in their audio streams anyway (which changes the audio more than lossy compression ever would).

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Old 27th November 2023, 22:25   #16  |  Link
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Eh? Lossy DTS offers the same number of channels as lossy Dolby Digital. No more!
In DVD-Video, DTS has been expanded to at least 6.1 discrete (commonly available in several DVDs) and the extension is called "DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete". It's a mix of matrix-encoding and discrete. Basically, it's "DTS ES-Matrix" (5.1 discrete + 6th channel matrix-encoded in the two real channels of 5.1) with the 6th channel also added as a discrete channel somewhere in the bitstream. A DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete decoder has to decode the 5.1, decode the 6th discrete channel and also remove the matrix-encoded 6th channel from the two rear channels of 5.1.

DTS-ES 7.1 Discrete is also possible by using the same principles to add side-surround channels, but not sure it made it into DVD-Video or any home formats.

Anyway, back on topic, none of this is required to decode DTS for basic 2.0 or 5.1 playback, implementing the first DTS spec allows you to play back all DTS technologies except DTS:X (which is an Atmos competitor). That's why I find the non-support by MxPlayer perplexing.

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Old 27th November 2023, 22:42   #17  |  Link
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In DVD-Video, DTS has been expanded to at least 6.1 discrete (commonly available in several DVDs) and the extension is called "DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete". It's a mix of matrix-encoding and discrete...
Dolby developed Dolby Digital EX which creates a matrix rear centre channel, which can be configured to offer two mono rear channels.


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DTS-ES 7.1 Discrete is also possible by using the same principles to add side-surround channels, but not sure it made it into DVD-Video or any home formats.
DTS-ES has never offered 7.1 discrete channels, only 6.1. And yes it has appeared on DVD-Video discs and even DTS-CD's...

This is a pretty ridiculous discussion....
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Old 27th November 2023, 22:59   #18  |  Link
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Dolby developed Dolby Digital EX which creates a matrix rear centre channel, which can be configured to offer two mono rear channels.
Dolby Digital EX is equivalent to DTS ES-Matrix, not DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete. Dolby Digital EX adds a matrix-encoded 6th channel but doesn't also add a discrete version of it. Not that it's important, but some people think it is.

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DTS-ES has never offered 7.1 discrete channels, only 6.1. And yes it has appeared on DVD-Video discs and even DTS-CD's...

This is a pretty ridiculous discussion....
I am not sure DTS-ES 7.1 Discrete ever existed or ever existed in cinemas only, I've only heard about it somewhere, you are probably right.

EDIT: Now I remember, got confused with DTS-HR 7.1 (aka DTS-HD HR). So, lossy DTS 7.1 discrete exists but under the DTS-HR extension not the DTS-ES extension. Sorry.

Anyway, all this is playable as 2.0 and 5.1 by implementing the first DTS spec. Since all the patents have expired, it's an opportunity going to waste that nobody implements it.

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