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Old 24th July 2009, 06:25   #1  |  Link
iffybob
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DVBt to AVI, aspect ratio

Hi all ... first post so please bear with.....

I have been lookin at this site for a few mounths now, read a few of the BAsics of, and getting started..... Thank You to the people who wrote them

a bit about me, as I'm a newbie, male 40, nuts, geek (not nerd), ex-programmer from way back, so please dont ask for prog avice i'm pre-C++.

OK to whinge.......

I live in the UK where i receive digital television - DVBt - 25fps PAL.


I have a recorder that records a single channel ie BBC1 , ITV etc
in a raw stream in marked as mpg format onto a flash drive.

the tv commly transmits at 720 x 576 res with an aspect ratio of 16:9 or 4:3

i then use

PVAStrumento ver 2.1.0.21 to process the mpg from ts to ps - this works.

DVDPatcher ver 106 - to patch the file as needs be - this works.

I then cut out the ads etc using a veriety of software to give the best results

This gives me an output as an mpg but not a true mpeg

the mpegs just fool the playback in to thinking there proper mpegs not a DVBt stream.

the prob is :-

my prefered target is an avi (approx DivX 5, though i use Xvid cos the Divx encoder keeps crashing don't know why)

the re-encode takes out the bad spec conformaty. (there are rules they - the TV companies - just break them)

my target avi spec - resolution 720 x 576 at 1000kbps or 2000kbps cbr , with an aspect ratio of either 16:9 OR 4:3 to match the input and mp3 audio, to get a file that will playback on most devices.

to covert i'm using OJOsoft Total Video Converter 2.5.0.1009 with the Xvid codec. or Xilisoft Video Converter 3


the probs with the play back aspect ratio


if i force a 16:9 it playsback at 4:3 fullscreen on every playback programe and device. if i select auto it encodes 4:3 leter box, with top/bottom boarders.

Gspot says the AR is not set in the avi but is in the origanl mpg - ?.

I have seen some of the other encoders .... choices ..... confused ..... Im not an expert.

have tried many, most just crash, i suspect some use there own codecs, as I make changes in the Xvid control pannel , and these are ignored.

I have tried using front ends for AVI synth, I think I have probs with install order, and what versions of what work with what.


I "supect" that apect ritio is not setable (yes that is now a word) for avi's, and the files I have set the resolution, to get the playback to display correctly.

I suspect my best solution is just to re-encode the files to proper DVD mpegs, and make them up to DVDs but I would prefer them as AVi.

Unless I have missed the obviouse, I'am going in circles on FAQs and the like.

any "simple" help please, I have approx 350Gbytes of recordings stacked up to process (Had to buy a new external HD to store them) and I would like my head to stop hurting.

My OS is Windows XP - (I know head not hurting and windows is a contardiction in terms).

My machine is - A Dell GX270 (2,8GHz) , 400GB HD, 1.5 GBytes of ram, Radion 9550se 128MB Club 3D Graphics and crappy mother board sound. and a Compaq QVision 210 monitor.

My internet is - a pay as you go - Mobile 3G from vodafone (USB) - which i have had very few probs with.
( it disconnects external USB drives when it is pluged in, and does not like being already plug in at system startup/restart, this is livable, it is also multi connective 3G, GPRS etc)


and I know my spelling is bad i bin told that since i was little - I just no good at it - but get by.

Thank you. boB
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Old 24th July 2009, 08:30   #2  |  Link
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If you say that in UK the DVB-T is 720x576, why don't you do directly a DVD out of it? The specs are the same (I assume that only the GOP is larger in DVB-T than in DVD, but that's not an issue).
Get the DVB stream, run it through a proper demuxer/remuxer (projectx, pvastromento, tsmuxer and the like), correct the DAR with DVDpatcher if necessary, author the DVD in your favourite software, burn it with nero/imgburn. Bingo. Done in 20 minutes (I have slow HDDs ) + the time to cut out the commercials.
I don't know what bitrate they use in the UK, in Germany a 90min movie needs about 2GB (after authoring), so I can pack 2 movies on a DVD. Universally playable.
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Old 24th July 2009, 11:27   #3  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
This gives me an output as an mpg but not a true mpeg
It should be. I use ProjectX and the resulting elemental MPEG streams seem fine - they go into a DVD authoring app, or TMPGenc's muxer then VideoReDo (highly recommended).

Some UK broadcasts use a max GOP of 49 - this is far more than the limit for DVD, and most authoring software will warn you of this or reject the files. However, many broadcasts are completely DVD compliant.

VideoReDo will fix the long GOPs to DVD standard without complete re-encoding.

Cheers,
David.
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Old 24th July 2009, 11:29   #4  |  Link
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The info you need to see if it's DVD compliant (resolution, GOP length etc) is here:

http://dtt.me.uk/

...though once you've captured it, you can just check the file itself.

Cheers,
David.
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Old 24th July 2009, 12:06   #5  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Bdecided View Post
It should be. I use ProjectX and the resulting elemental MPEG streams seem fine - they go into a DVD authoring app, or TMPGenc's muxer then VideoReDo (highly recommended).

Some UK broadcasts use a max GOP of 49 - this is far more than the limit for DVD, and most authoring software will warn you of this or reject the files. However, many broadcasts are completely DVD compliant.

VideoReDo will fix the long GOPs to DVD standard without complete re-encoding.
Exactly! If you are not willing to spend money on VideoReDo you can also use Cuttermaran. If you have a supported encoder installed, it can do frame accurate edits plus reencode GOPs which are not DVD compliant.

For the aspect ratio problems you have to live with the fact that an AVI container does not have any AR flag. So the usual thing is that a player just assumes that the AVI has square pixels. It is in no way illegal to encode to AVI in 16:9, you just have to tell the player which AR it should use.

I rarely convert to DivX / XviD, and if I do then I use the DivX Converter (HomeTheater profile) for its ease of use. To achieve maximum compatibility with standalone DVD players (the majority of current players support DivX) this converter always converts 16:9 sources to 4:3, it always deinterlaces interlaced content, and it always converts audio to MP3 CBR (unless you tell it not to touch the source AC3 audio). This behaviour gave it the bad reputation it has among video nerds, but for my needs this DivX converter is just right.

Cheers
manolito
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Old 25th July 2009, 07:30   #6  |  Link
iffybob
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thank you

Thank you to every body that replyed to my many questions,


although i suppected after a while that AVI had no AR flag, nobody just said it, maybe the spec could be fixed in the future as many stand alone playback devices now play Divx and Xvid.

The horizontal res is 720, some times, also 704 and 544, as I said the tv companies break the rules and the res GOP and bit rate are highly variable, I think they decrease the quality of the video so that they can fit 2 channels in the bandwith of one, in some cases, which is why I figured on a full re-encode as avi a consistant option.

I would like to point out one thing - This is England we may have rules, that doent mean anybody enforces them, that people are made to comply , especialy if you are a bussines


DVBt is also subject to interference, and I live in a built up area, its not real bad but it can generate inconsistencys in the stream, PVAstudio seams to do a good job at filtering most of this out, but its not perfect, i dont think it can be - nobodys fault.

Avi encodes around 4 times as fast as full DVD mpeg encode on my system, they take up less space ( around half for 1000Kbps), I did try to dump DVBt mpgs to DVD Disc after a just a TS to PS and cutting the file. the player realy did not like it, some played fine some jumped, and some would end playback and jump to the menu during play back, even though i knew that the rest of the file was there.

I did find this prog on via mpegx web sight "DVBcut-0.6.0-166_win32" for cutting DVB used it a couple of times only on problematic files, it scans and indexes the mpg stream, before you can do any thing. which seams to help.

you have given me a few things to consider, i have a busy weekend planed and will get to following your advice

Again thanks.

Last edited by iffybob; 25th July 2009 at 07:47.
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Old 25th July 2009, 08:24   #7  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Bdecided View Post
It should be. I use ProjectX and the resulting elemental MPEG streams seem fine - they go into a DVD authoring app, or TMPGenc's muxer then VideoReDo (highly recommended).

Some UK broadcasts use a max GOP of 49 - this is far more than the limit for DVD, and most authoring software will warn you of this or reject the files. However, many broadcasts are completely DVD compliant.

VideoReDo will fix the long GOPs to DVD standard without complete re-encoding.

Cheers,
David.
when i say not a true mpeg, i mostly mean not DVD complient, but things like GOP, AR ( This switch between programes, ad breaks and bit rates, reception errors ), i understand that its all meta data, its just not consistant meta data.
As I reason it, its information on how to make a TV picture, rather than how to make a complient mpeg.
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Old 26th July 2009, 09:30   #8  |  Link
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Well, a few things first
1. MPEG does not automatically mean DVD
A MPEG-2 stream that is DVD compliant is a subset of a much larger MPEG specifications. DVB broadcasters are allowed to emit in 544 or 480, it's part of the specifications. Most DVD players would play a DVD made of 544x or 480x576 DVB captures (provided the DAR is specified, and it is, otherwise it cannot be correctly displayed by the receivers).

2. DVBT is designed also for dense population zones, its correction abilities are enough to prevent most receiving problems. It's your duty to improve the reception, like in the analog era (nobody asks you to copy the methods of Mr. Bean, an amplifier would suffice).

3. A good quality AVI needs, in my view, about 1.2-1.5 GB/90 min. A DVB-T transmission in Germany yields about 2-2.5GB / 90 min (DVD format). I spare myself the reencoding times, not to mention that not all players understand Divx family of codecs (and even if, there are some restrictions in parametrising divx/xvid). And I can fit 2 movies on a DVD in the original quality.


Is it anyone kind enough to post a sample of a British broadcast that has a GOP of 48 or 49? I'd like to see if my players cope with this....
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Old 26th July 2009, 12:08   #9  |  Link
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I have no problen with what all 'X' should do, but try to understand there are people who "know" exactly what they are doing, by study, by occupation etc. then there are the rest of use who are tryin to get from "A to B", which they can usualy sum up in a simple staitment of there aim, my posts in this thred I will use as an example, I admit I dont realy Know what Im doing, hands up.

The background reasoning to what I was trying to do goes as follows,
I have AVI's that are both, 4:3, 16:9, and the other one that doesnt come too mind, they have no black boarders top and bottom, but have variations in 'actual' resolution, now previously workin with Mpegs "I" asumed (?) that there was an aspect ratio setting in the AVI file structor, (ps any one who has a link to the avi file struct, appreciated ), I was wrong, but I did not read anything that made the staitment

"Unlike mpg, avi has no actual aspect ratio setting".

A simple staitment, that removes a lot of potenial confusion.
( and in my case would have saved me some time)

A suppose the point Im trying to make is "When I was a programmer, I could not use the same lanuage set when taking to a "User" as when I was takin to another "Programmer" ", I would not be understood.

A lot of the forums are added to by people who know what they are taking about, this is good, but to supply, professonal answers, to none professionals, or provide links to many pages of info, also writern by prof, where only a sentence or two is required by the reader, "if" they could under stand what they were reading.

There is a reason that the "Idiots Guide to ..." books sold.

The other thing I found is that the answer provided was that "This prorame will solve your problem", alot of freeware which I use (cos Im poor'ish), not that hot on the documentation, some is very simple, load file , select destination, press go, others are more complexed, and means understanding what you are doing, before useing some of these I can check what other help is available, an example is "projectx", the forum for this is in German, if every thing goes OK I'm fine, if not I'm stuck.

(Being German is not to complain, you do what you do for those you can help)

If there is an English lanuage formum, please let me know.

I download the DVBt, spec, its a long (condenced) technical read, and does allow for a wide, choice of spec for transmited programes.

It also contains info for data services, etc it only 78 pages, of technical info !, what I saw was here.

http://www.dvb.org/technology/standa...cification.pdf.

What I dont seam to find is ground work tutorials, when I start to look at a subjct somtimes, I will pick up a childs book, and read it, it may not give definitive answers, but it does descripe context and scope, I can then go onto the big boys books. If you think back that is the way most people lernt about subjects, they have just forgotten that is what they did then to get to where they are now.

Where I was trying to go was to get files, that would play correctly on most media players, with the smallest file size, without too much hassle.

I have decided to go for DVD, (with the help of the advice I got here to clear up what I did not know, thank you again)

The links and other info I got proved usfull.

But I also hope that in asking the so called "stupid" questions, a person who was in the possition I was in a few days ago will not have to stay there.

I dont mind looking like a fool at the start, to understand by the end.. I can live with that.. and I learn so much more, and it can be fun. and if you think I talk out my rear, thats ok to, everybody does somtimes.

Thankyou (agian) to all that helped.

Cheers, boB
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Old 26th July 2009, 12:24   #10  |  Link
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I'm happy to leave point 1 as fact.

Point 2 - No spec for single way transmission can be data corruption proofed, there is no, I got a bad packet can us send it again, protocol, Where I live I get signal reflections, I had ghosting form the old analog signals, and no amount of arial possitioning could get rid of this completely. Also I find taxis, police, ambulance, fire service raido, near my home, even a mobile phone if close, I will get droped and corrupted data packets, that is the price I pay for living in a town, I accept this.

Point 3 - This is on a personal point only - the files I wanted were to be "watchable" not crystal clear "Archive" material, and I was willing to trade size for quality - the players I have and have had, and some I seen, seam to top out at DivX ver 5.x so I was going to limit myself to that.

Thanks you for your input.
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Old 26th July 2009, 12:33   #11  |  Link
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Going for DVD it's easy as ABC.

Load your .TS file into ProjectX and remux it to MPEG-2 or to elementary streams (according to the authoring program needs, some want MPEG files, others want elementary streams). My internet computer (this one) is far far away from my video PC, so I cannot give you the exact settings and/or steps. However,go to doom9.org (not the forum), browse for ProjectX and you'll find the guides.

ProjectX can also demux the subtitles from the teletext pages (I think 888 in the UK) so you can have the subtitles too, if you're intested in.

Now remux the whole stuff in IfoEdit (option author a new dvd in the top menu) and burn it on a DVD. If you want more movies, you can repeat the steps and use another freeware menu maker called DVD author gui.

Since I've recently learned that there are long GOPs in some programs, it would be nice to burn a DVDRW just to check up if you have problems or not.

In the case the frame size is not 720 nor 704 but 544 or 480, you have to use a DVD patcher to modifiy the first header to 720 (some authoring programs may complain), import it in that program, author the dvd, then repatch the file again to its original specs.

Last edited by Ghitulescu; 26th July 2009 at 12:35.
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Old 26th July 2009, 12:50   #12  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
Point 2 - No spec for single way transmission can be data corruption proofed, there is no, I got a bad packet can us send it again, protocol, Where I live I get signal reflections, I had ghosting form the old analog signals, and no amount of arial possitioning could get rid of this completely. Also I find taxis, police, ambulance, fire service raido, near my home, even a mobile phone if close, I will get droped and corrupted data packets, that is the price I pay for living in a town, I accept this.
You need to improve your reception. Since you got interferences from RF signals way below the DVB-T spectrum, it means your antena is far to "generous", that means it is not tuned for DVB-T, but also for analog FM/TV reception (broad spectrum). Buy a DVB-T one and all your problems may go ... Be however prepared to pay a bit more for a dedicated DVB-T antenna, otherwise you'll end with a "relabelled" one, which is nothing but a simple mast (or a broad spectrum one) falsely labelled DVBT.

Since DVB-T is unidirectional (it has no "rück"channel, I don't know this in English) it means it has no possibility to resend the faulty datagram again, because it cannot know that a datagram is deffective. So, the only way to get rid of bad image is to improve your reception.
Quote:
Point 3 - This is on a personal point only - the files I wanted were to be "watchable" not crystal clear "Archive" material, and I was willing to trade size for quality - the players I have and have had, and some I seen, seam to top out at DivX ver 5.x so I was going to limit myself to that.
That's exactly what I said. I see no improvement in recoding DVB(-T, -S) into DIVX/XVID, since the quality can at most remain the same. Yes, when the bitrate is low, you may have motion artefacts that can be partially corrected during the reencoding, but, hey, it's not worth the time. So I copy 1:1 DVB-T to DVD, trying to keep the subtitles and secondary languages if any.
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Old 26th July 2009, 14:17   #13  |  Link
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I think the best translation for "rück" is "revertive" in the context of what you said but I think there may be no direct translation.

Yeh I know my reception is not great, the problem with upgrading is related to the post I made earlyer about enforcment, and what you said about labling.

The stores are mostly staff by a sales force, whoes qualifications can be limited to stacking the shelves and manning the tills, not tech savvy, I suspect there cheep and easly replaceable. I've asked many questions in shops and got the answer "I dont know, I just sell the stuff", or they quote the side of the box, which I just read, at which point I walk away.

If you dont know exactly what you are dealing with or looking for, you more likly to part with your money and walk away with stock they are trying to clear than what you need, and I cannot afford to make mistakes, like that.

Subtitles - not an issuse for me, and my PVR- DBVt recoder does not record them,
( for those interested it a "Nikkai A88JB", I got from Maplin, it has what the English call charictor, but once you understand it, it does as its told), and I dont need them.

nor is second lanuage, there is the provision in the DBVt spec, I dont know if any of the companys use it, I think it is used for somthing called "Audio Description" for the visualy impaired ,we dont go for multi language transmission for the most part, although the island has English, Scotish, Welsh, and Irish, ( Irish and Scotish are based on Galic, and the Welsh is just Welsh), but mostley we all speak English(ish), international satalite transmistions, are prob differnt, but the recorder only records one set of audio.

To clear things up a bit - My recoder records - 1 programe Channel of video - and 1 set of audio for that channel. - (dont need to de-mux)

I have a USB DVBt "Pen" that I can record pluged into the computer, that records the the entire RF channel that the channel you want is transmitted on - this does need to be de-mux and prob has all the addition info on it.
which is what I suspect is of the type of recoreder alot of people use, from what I've read. (I dont use mine)

But my setup takes that whole de-mux, re-mux lot of work out of it.

so I dont need to seperate the Audio and Video, and reintegrate them.

What I have decided,Im going to do is -

PVAStrumento , DVDPatcher, cut out the ads etc, the re-encode the files to a proper DVD spec, on a batch basis, prob once a week when I'm not using the computer.
and live with that.
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Old 26th July 2009, 14:32   #14  |  Link
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you still remux it from DVB to DVD - PVAstromento does it for you.
The reason is that DVD requires a program stream while the DVB standard uses a transport stream. BD makes (does it?) the things a bit easier as it employs transport streams as well.
By secondary audio is not to be understand a foreign language only, it might be very well the Dolby channel of the same audio (ie MP2 and/or DD). In EU it doesn't matter, but in the US it makes a big difference, since the DVD specifications for NTSC only requires AC3 to be present (therefore most US players do not "understand" MPEG audio). That's the power of a monopol or a well placed lobby.
Anyway, I'm glad you solved your problems.
Cheers

PS:any PVR that records the whole "transponder" records the subtitles, be they teletext or DVB-subtitles.

Last edited by Ghitulescu; 26th July 2009 at 14:36.
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Old 26th July 2009, 14:51   #15  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
"Unlike mpg, avi has no actual aspect ratio setting".

A simple staitment, that removes a lot of potenial confusion.
( and in my case would have saved me some time)
A simple statement that is in-fact, wrong...

Providing the MPEG-4 (DivX, Xvid, etc) video stream within the .AVI container includes aspect ratio signalling information. And provided your software player has a decent parser, the video will be displayed at the correct aspect ratio.

The same goes for DV and even MPEG-1/2 video within the .AVI container!


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Old 27th July 2009, 10:17   #16  |  Link
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Going for DVD it's easy as ABC.
Or get the elemental streams using ProjectX, mux them into a program stream using something (I use TMPGenc's MPEG tools), and then throw it into VideoReDo, edit, and make it author a DVD - it'll fix all the non compliant stuff automatically - without re-encoding the whole lot unless it really has to.

You should try the free demo - if only to satisfy yourself that it really is possible to do this easily!

Cheers,
David.
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Old 27th July 2009, 11:26   #17  |  Link
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I tend to shy away from, trail versions of software, except for jobs that i need to do now, and very few times in the future, not because there is anything wrong with them, but because 30 days is not a long term solution, some will only encode 5 min of a file, and some watermark or place a visual tag onto the video.

SeeMoreDigital - I understand what you are saying, I dont know how to do it, when I have tried I've failed to get the results I expect ,read my orgininal post. and have not seen an equivelent of "DVDPatcher_v106" for avis. cheers.

Ghitulescu - the link in post #4, gives way better decription of the source than I can give you. having thought a bit more "feedback channel" is prob a better translation for "rück channel".

I PVAstromento - not sure exactly what this programe does, All I understand is that it converts the file from TS to PS, re-alines the audio , and can split 4:3 and 16:9 in seperate file, which makes editing out ads and trimming less time consumming.
and after I've used it editors like the ouput more than the original file.

Suprised about the US DVD players, I thought the players were globle, just factory set for regens, on mine going from Reg-2 to Reg-0 was just an option on a factory setup config menu, and plays both NTSC and PAL discs fine, I live and learn.
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Old 27th July 2009, 12:07   #18  |  Link
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Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
I tend to shy away from, trail versions of software, except for jobs that i need to do now, and very few times in the future, not because there is anything wrong with them, but because 30 days is not a long term solution, some will only encode 5 min of a file, and some watermark or place a visual tag onto the video.
But you see if you like the software or not. It's a bit like test-driving a car before actually buying it.
Quote:
I PVAstromento - not sure exactly what this programe does, All I understand is that it converts the file from TS to PS, re-alines the audio , and can split 4:3 and 16:9 in seperate file, which makes editing out ads and trimming less time consumming.
I do not understand why you cannot achieve the MPG from TS. If you follow the guides it should work.
I'm not sure but I've heard that in UK there's no longer DVB-T but DVB-T2 which is a sort of DVB-S2 for terrestrial. Should this be the case, then you have to forget PVAstromento and similar and use tsMuxer or tsRemux. One of them, I don't know which, has an experimental support for broadcast errors.
Quote:
Suprised about the US DVD players, I thought the players were globle, just factory set for regens, on mine going from Reg-2 to Reg-0 was just an option on a factory setup config menu, and plays both NTSC and PAL discs fine, I live and learn.
Yes, because you had an EU model. You can also make an US model region free, but it can only play R0 and R2 in NTSC (I think Japan is R2 and NTSC) along with its original R1. At least the good ole players did this, maybe the Chinese clones are the same, here and overseas.

Last edited by Ghitulescu; 27th July 2009 at 12:51.
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Old 27th July 2009, 13:59   #19  |  Link
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DVB-T2 is for the new MPEG-4 AVC HD broadcasts - they've not launched on terrestrial yet.

All the SD muxes are (and will remain) DVB-T.


Loads of people in the UK are making this process (DVB-T > DVD) work just fine

Cheers,
David.
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Old 27th July 2009, 17:29   #20  |  Link
SeeMoreDigital
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Join Date: Jun 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
SeeMoreDigital - I understand what you are saying, I dont know how to do it, when I have tried I've failed to get the results I expect ,read my orgininal post. and have not seen an equivelent of "DVDPatcher_v106" for avis. cheers.
For altering the aspect ratio signalling values of MPEG-4 streams within the .AVI container, you need to use an application called MPEG4 Modifier. Here you go: -

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=78050
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