madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by LordX2

Perhaps the PJ can process RGB in limited mode at 30hz or lower with 10bit.

You should not need to use 4:2:0 unless you want to send 4K60. Even 4K30 12 bit RGB/444 is within the bandwidth limits. Oddly that projector seems to work in 8 bit internally with 4K60 anyway.

ProjectorCentral - Sony VPL-VW285ES 4K SXRD Projector review:

Unfortunately, this projector will down-res all 4K HDR 60 fps material to 8-bit regardless of chroma subsampling.

What is your GPU set to output?

Edit: For limited range video I prefer to use YCbCr 444 over RGB, limited is a normal concept for YCbCr while it is weird for RGB. Limited RGB uses 16-235 for all three planes while YCbCr uses 16-235 for Y but 16-240 for Cb and Cr. You would need to set madVR to full range when setting the GPU to YCbCr 444. 10 bit YCbCr 444 limited at 30 Hz or less should be a great option for that projector.

Originally Posted by LordX2

I mean something is happening with 10bit since I am noticing a difference on the test video. If it were all 8bit, it would (should) look the same either way I tested it.

Things can change between bit depths even if something isn't right.

Originally Posted by LordX2

Since I love the picture now - I may just leave it alone.

Hard to argue with that but something seems off to me.

Originally Posted by LordX2

But would it be worth it to try and set the PJ from BT.709 to DCI-P3 if it will let me? And see if that makes any difference?

Projector model is: VPL-VW285es - Sony

I wouldn't bother to be honest, not without a colorimeter to create a 3DLUT. Your projector has very good coverage of BT.709 but it is less good for wide gamut, most colors will be more accurate using the BT.709 mode on the projector.
I do not necessarily suggest copying their settings but they do show the gamut coverage pretty well.
Sony VPL-VW285ES Calibration Results

[LordX2]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

You should not need to use 4:2:0 unless you want to send 4K60. Even 4K30 12 bit RGB/444 is within the bandwidth limits. Oddly that projector seems to work in 8 bit internally with 4K60 anyway.

Yeah, I am aware of the 'above 30hz' cut off for my PJ - My system always boots to 23.976Hz, and I have MadVR set to change the Hz for whatever the video content is.. 99% of everything I watch is 23.976 or 25fps (planet earth etc). So I am always in the 'sweet spot' in that regard.

MadVR shows that the 4k HDR Remux videos I play are "P010, 10bit, 4:2:0 (DXVA11)" in the statistics. That is where I am getting the 4:2:0 from.

My actual settings are: Nvidia is RGB Full 12bit @ 23.976, MadVR output set to Limited, PJ set to Limited.

I think it is just ME saying things wrong that is leading to the confusion!

"Your projector has very good coverage of BT.709 but it is less good for wide gamut, most colors will be more accurate using the BT.709 mode on the projector."

I noticed this as well. Both on reviews and in person. When switching to HDR content, colors are crap. But in SDR they are vivid and rich.

So with madvr tone mapping to SDR, and outputting at 10bit, I think I am getting the best I can with the setup I have.

PS - Asmodian, wanna come over and give an in person review? It's only a 3000 mile drive and a 2 week quarantine! hahaha

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by LordX2

MadVR shows that the 4k HDR Remux videos I play are "P010, 10bit, 4:2:0 (DXVA11)" in the statistics. That is where I am getting the 4:2:0 from.

My actual settings are: Nvidia is RGB Full 12bit @ 23.976, MadVR output set to Limited, PJ set to Limited.

I think it is just ME saying things wrong that is leading to the confusion!

Haha, that makes sense! You are correct, I think you found your ideal settings.

That line is telling you about the source, madVR received 10 bit 4:2:0 video in the P010 format from DXVA11 hardware decoding.

[tp4tissue]

My guess @ what's actually happening to lordX2 is that the projector goes into a pc mode of sorts when fed 444 rgb full, on many systems this disables the dynamic brightness/contrast image manipulation of the projector itself. and it may well clamp to rec709 instead of native p3 gamut. This could account for the loss in perceived saturation both from the contrast and gamut difference. Potentially also following a different gamma curve

For an image to be rendered too brightly due to levels mismatch, The PC has to send the wrong 16-235 levels while the Projector is expecting 0-255. If that is NOT the case, then the projector is doing full rgb correctly.

This is why you need to check the 0,0,0 black, if that black is about the same, while comparing both modes with all dynamic contrast/iris settings disabled, THAT MEANS the projector is doing the RGB Full correctly.

[tp4tissue]

@ Asmodian.

If Madvr is doing math to go from rec2020 to P3, then isn't it always better to feed it a rec2020 lut ?

Because that way, Madvr can do 1 less mathing of the gamut, we rely on argyll cms to math the gamut ONCE, And this side is more reliable because they are compressing using actual measurement data, WHEREAS, if Madvr does their math even once, it's Blind math, made with assumptions that don't always hold up on real color systems.

[Asmodian]

Well, not in practice, but theoretically you do want a custom 3DLUT for every source color space.

The difference between BT.2020 and DCI-P3 is a purely theoretical and an absolutely precise mathematical relationship, both sides are their theoretical color spaces. Assuming you are working with DCI-P3 encoded in BT.2020, the normal case. I haven't seen anything mastered in BT.2020 since there are no displays capable of displaying it. When mapping to a real display we need to make tradeoffs, and making tradeoffs twice is bad, but when mapping DCI-P3 range in BT.2020 to DCI-P3 you do not need to make any tradeoffs.

When I used software 3DLUTs I did make all the SDR LUTs, since that is so quick, but the difference was not measurable with an i1d3. I use passthrough for HDR so I haven't messed with HDR 3DLUTs. That said I would want a BT.709 and a DCI-P3 3DLUT, assuming my display's native gamut was very close to DCI-P3, and not worry about the pure math BT.2020 -> DCI-P3 conversion.

[huhn]

not sure if madVR does that or if it is worth any processing power but if you are tone mapping you can can do that to the gamut conversation too. so the tone mapping could do a better job if it knows that the gamut needs to be compressed too.

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

Well, not in practice, but theoretically you do want a custom 3DLUT for every source color space.

The difference between BT.2020 and DCI-P3 is a purely theoretical and an absolutely precise mathematical relationship, both sides are their theoretical color spaces. Assuming you are working with DCI-P3 encoded in BT.2020, the normal case. I haven't seen anything mastered in BT.2020 since there are no displays capable of displaying it. When mapping to a real display we need to make tradeoffs, and making tradeoffs twice is bad, but when mapping DCI-P3 range in BT.2020 to DCI-P3 you do not need to make any tradeoffs.

The definitions may be precise, but there are always idiosyncrasies in real systems that the math can't account for. My question was whether feeding madvr the rec2020 lut would save 1 transform.

Absent real offsets it's still very possible to swing wide even if by definition it should hit.

The data may be perfect but when you cast it, /problem.

I believe that movie Shadow is rec2020, but the bulk of the movie is greyscale, so idk what they were going for.

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

There are situations where it can scale chroma to 1440 while scaling 4K luma to 1440. Probably doesn't work with SSIM though.

Originally Posted by huhn

you just have to make sure the chroma scaler isn't a x2 algorithm even with SSIM

I stand corrected, I made a wrong assumption. I compared on my desktop which has a 1440 display and it indeed works, and the difference (ReconSoft + SSIM2D) is massive: -55% performance without it!

[huhn]

well do you want to fill put the bug report. i mean it says scale chroma separately if it saves performance it clearly doesn't.

[el Filou]

I meant minus 55% performance with the option unchecked, so it does indeed saves performance. Or, if you prefer to phrase it another way, more than 2x the rendering time if the save performance option is not checked.

[tp4tissue]

hang on what's going on with chroma ? what are the comparisons for the performance saving?

[whitestar999]

Originally Posted by el Filou

I meant minus 55% performance with the option unchecked, so it does indeed saves performance. Or, if you prefer to phrase it another way, more than 2x the rendering time if the save performance option is not checked.

I am planning on installing win 10 v1909(currently using LTSC 2019 on ryzen 1200 with 1050Ti) but heard that too many updates result in issues with madvr. Would you recommend it over LTSC & if yes then are there any steps to follow to avoid issues with madvr?

[Siso]

Originally Posted by whitestar999

I am planning on installing win 10 v1909(currently using LTSC 2019 on ryzen 1200 with 1050Ti) but heard that too many updates result in issues with madvr. Would you recommend it over LTSC & if yes then are there any steps to follow to avoid issues with madvr?

I'm goin' to install ltsc in about 1-2 weeks, but haven't heard about any issues with madvr. Are there any, if anyone knows please do tell.

[Asmodian]

I am using Win10 20H2. No issues with madVR after lowering the frame presented in advance.

What issues are people having?

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by whitestar999

I am planning on installing win 10 v1909(currently using LTSC 2019 on ryzen 1200 with 1050Ti) but heard that too many updates result in issues with madvr. Would you recommend it over LTSC & if yes then are there any steps to follow to avoid issues with madvr?

Based on experience, it's not the frequency of updates but their timing. I play it very safe on my HTPC and only update about 6 months after a Windows release and I've never had any problems even though I'm not using LTSC (I will very soon update to 20H2, as now the H1 and H2 builds share the same core).
Most of the time the problems are with GPU drivers or the OS itself and get resolved after a few weeks.
IIRC I've only seen one issue with Windows 10 where a change was needed in madVR itself, and it was resolved by madshi after some months.

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

hang on what's going on with chroma ? what are the comparisons for the performance saving?

I was comparing the performance with "scale chroma separately" (in trade quality for performance options) checked and unchecked, with 4K video on a 1440 display. I thought that didn't work but it was a misguided assumption from when I was using NGU for chroma (you can't use a doubling scaler for it to work, as huhn mentioned).
Of course the case with an even bigger performance gain is where display def = exact half of video def.

[whitestar999]

Originally Posted by Siso

I'm goin' to install ltsc in about 1-2 weeks, but haven't heard about any issues with madvr. Are there any, if anyone knows please do tell.

Currently there seems to be no issues but I have noticed some serious fluctuations in download speeds of my wifi(maybe my case only as I am using an old usb ac wifi adapter which works fine on win 8.1 in another system) & also Microsoft had released update for ryzen scheduling issue in v1903(LTSC is v1809) which can increase the performance of ryzen processors by a decent amount in gaming like scenarios so thinking of trying the v1909(comments suggests it is very stable plus enterprise version support is there till 11 may 2021).

[whitestar999]

Originally Posted by el Filou

Based on experience, it's not the frequency of updates but their timing. I play it very safe on my HTPC and only update about 6 months after a Windows release and I've never had any problems even though I'm not using LTSC (I will very soon update to 20H2, as now the H1 and H2 builds share the same core).
Most of the time the problems are with GPU drivers or the OS itself and get resolved after a few weeks.
IIRC I've only seen one issue with Windows 10 where a change was needed in madVR itself, and it was resolved by madshi after some months.

By updates you mean windows regular updates or windows version updates(say 1903 to 1909)?

[el Filou]

If you're going to switch to the standard branch and you've got recent (= still supported by manufacturer) hardware, I'd switch directly to 20H2. It's the same kernel as 20H1 so it's been out for 6 months now, all the showstopping bugs have been fixed and you'll get 12 additional months of updates compared to 1909.
If you're worried about issues, just update Windows once a year around november/december and you should be fine.

Originally Posted by whitestar999

By updates you mean windows regular updates or windows version updates(say 1903 to 1909)?

Both really. I update to a newer Windows version once a year around november/december, and for monthly updates I manually pause them and update during the second weekend after patch tuesday (i.e. a week and a half after the monthly update is released).

[Siso]

Originally Posted by whitestar999

Currently there seems to be no issues but I have noticed some serious fluctuations in download speeds of my wifi(maybe my case only as I am using an old usb ac wifi adapter which works fine on win 8.1 in another system) & also Microsoft had released update for ryzen scheduling issue in v1903(LTSC is v1809) which can increase the performance of ryzen processors by a decent amount in gaming like scenarios so thinking of trying the v1909(comments suggests it is very stable plus enterprise version support is there till 11 may 2021).

My cpu is xeon x5650, so I don't need the new ryzen stuff. So I guess ltsc still would be a good choice.