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Old 15th November 2022, 15:49   #63661  |  Link
Schwartz
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Yes I read something like that. I set it up and compared the two Chromas, that was in April '22. mpv and madVR. I was surprised how different it looked.

Last edited by Schwartz; 15th November 2022 at 15:57.
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Old 15th November 2022, 18:07   #63662  |  Link
kasper93
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Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
kasper93: mpv can't reach madVR quality in Chroma upscaling. Its Bilateral equivalent is very visibly inferior to madVR Bilateral. Luma upscaler situation is much more even between the two. I don't see a reason to "let go" of superior software. No real security concern and it still works on modern OS.
Oh my... don't put that one me now. I didn't start this discussion. It was multiple guys who were complaining that madVR is actually not working for them on newer GPUs or something. So while you may not see a reason to "let go", others might have different experience.

As for Bilateral in madVR it is originally from Shiandow and you have sources included in madVR.zip for legal reasons. So it is not some madVR secret sauce that is "better" than others. The mpv version is maintained here https://gist.github.com/igv/a015fc88...1820ad89555637 I don't know history, what version is derived from where.

For luma, well, you can take a look here
https://artoriuz.github.io/blog/mpv_upscaling.html

NGU is madVR is very good, never said it isn't. But at the same time FSRCNNX is good too.

Last edited by kasper93; 15th November 2022 at 19:25.
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Old 15th November 2022, 18:13   #63663  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
Yes I read something like that. I set it up and compared the two Chromas, that was in April '22. mpv and madVR. I was surprised how different it looked.
that's a color space difference not a scaler.
not the same screen anyway.
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Old 16th November 2022, 02:16   #63664  |  Link
Schwartz
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Maybe I'll get around to testing them again with a decent still image.
Anyway the loss of Chroma accuracy is obvious. To me, anyway.
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Old 16th November 2022, 14:00   #63665  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
Given similar quality settings, GPU use is roughly similar as well. And mpv itself still is not as efficient as MPC-HC on legacy hardware where it's EVR-CP vs. mpv with simple bicubic setting. That was what made me initially happy to go back to MPC-HC on the old Thinkpad. Noticeably lower CPU use.
I disagree.
I used HWiNFO and even a Wattmeter (some years ago) to verify this. madVR with minimal settings uses more ressources than mpv/VLC/MPC VR/EVR. In the past, madshi said madVR wad not optimised and it was planned for madVR 1.0.
Between mpv/MPC VR/VLC, the differences were so small (in ressources usage) that it depends on what you want (image quality / UI / general preferences).

I understand you prefer madVR (no problem), but I just wanted to disagree on ressources statement.
(hoping madshi is not reading this anymore because he didn't like when we were speaking about competitors in this thread)
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Old 16th November 2022, 16:06   #63666  |  Link
Schwartz
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mpv resource usage also depends hugely on settings used, just like with madVR. Maybe I consider it more reasonable because I never use Error Diffusion and that jumps GPU use well beyond mpv with its most expensive setting. With ED off and NGU, they aren't too far apart.

I also want to like mpv since it's now available for Windows. If I could only get Chroma to not suck I would be compelled to switch. Well that and I like useful UIs. There's an UI version of mpv around but even that is very "linuxy".
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Old 16th November 2022, 22:03   #63667  |  Link
e-t172
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Originally Posted by kasper93 View Post
Long time ago(TM). Passthrough Apr 2020
It's worth noting that mpv did not quite implement passthrough correctly until very recently, as it was not providing proper HDR peak luminance metadata to the display. That was only implemented a few months ago and not by default - you need to pass specific options to make it work. Also, AFAICT, the API that mpv uses to do that only really works on Windows 11, not Windows 10. (madVR can use the Nvidia private HDR APIs to work around that limitation.)

Last edited by e-t172; 16th November 2022 at 22:06.
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Old 17th November 2022, 04:33   #63668  |  Link
kasper93
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It's worth noting that mpv did not quite implement passthrough correctly until very recently, as it was not providing proper HDR peak luminance metadata to the display.
Only for d3d11, Vulkan was working since before, if supported by driver, but on Windows it generally works.
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
Also, AFAICT, the API that mpv uses to do that only really works on Windows 11, not Windows 10.
Wrong, the API is available on Windows 10 too.
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
(madVR can use the Nvidia private HDR APIs to work around that limitation.)
Yeah, I mean... 0000674: madVR hdr does not work on windows 11 newest build submitted 2021-08-20 11:41. Also I don't understand what your point is? HDR was not working, on certain configuration, and is now working, is a good thing, no? It only proves my point that one of this software is maintained and improved, and the other is not...

Back to HDR passthrough. It is not really recommended to use passthrough nowadays, unless you trust your display. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...sethdrmetadata
Quote:
It is no longer recommended for apps to explicitly set HDR metadata on their swap chain using SetHDRMetaData. Windows does not guarantee that swap chain metadata is sent to the monitor, and monitors do not handle HDR metadata consistently. Therefore it's recommended that apps always tone-map content into the range reported by the monitor.
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Old 17th November 2022, 12:45   #63669  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kasper93 View Post
It is not really recommended to use passthrough nowadays, unless you trust your display.
Quote:
It is no longer recommended for apps to explicitly set HDR metadata on their swap chain using SetHDRMetaData. Windows does not guarantee that swap chain metadata is sent to the monitor, and monitors do not handle HDR metadata consistently. Therefore it's recommended that apps always tone-map content into the range reported by the monitor.
"the range reported by the monitor" can't always be trusted either.
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Old 17th November 2022, 13:30   #63670  |  Link
Damien147
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Is 4:4:4 really useful with Madvr?Is there any real benefit?
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Old 17th November 2022, 14:29   #63671  |  Link
Asmodian
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With madVR the benefit is minimal, but there is some.

One of madVR's main selling points is improved chroma scaling and any screen that does not display 4:4:4 damages the chroma unnecessarily.

Both chroma planes are scaled to 50% horizontally in the TV, not a good thing, but definitely worse with native 4:4:4 content like PC games than with madVR.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 17th November 2022 at 14:31.
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Old 17th November 2022, 15:14   #63672  |  Link
Damien147
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Madvr+4:4:4+smooth motion(because I have to use 60hz only for 4:4:4)
or
Madvr+sacrifice 4:4:4+23hz

What do you suggest that will give me best benefit?I really want to disable smooth motion and use 23hz,24hz and so on but I won't have 4:4:4.
What is the wisest thing to do?


If option 2 what pixel format do I put in gpu?Also I set madvr to TV levels?

Last edited by Damien147; 17th November 2022 at 16:05.
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Old 17th November 2022, 20:19   #63673  |  Link
e-t172
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Wrong, the API is available on Windows 10 too.
It is, but in my experience it doesn't work (as in, the metadata isn't actually sent to the display). It does work in Windows 11. I haven't checked recently though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kasper93 View Post
Yeah, I mean... 0000674: madVR hdr does not work on windows 11 newest build submitted 2021-08-20 11:41.
That doesn't match my experience. madVR HDR passthrough works just fine on my Windows 11 setup.

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Also I don't understand what your point is? HDR was not working, on certain configuration, and is now working, is a good thing, no?
My point was correct HDR passthrough has only been available in mpv recently and only if you pass the magic set of config incantations. But if the stars align it does work, yes.

In madVR, it just works out of the box, and has been for years.

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It only proves my point that one of this software is maintained and improved, and the other is not...
I agree that given the current state of madVR development, it is inevitable that mpv (and other software) will surpass it. Not sure we're there yet, but it's getting pretty close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kasper93 View Post
Back to HDR passthrough. It is not really recommended to use passthrough nowadays, unless you trust your display. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...sethdrmetadata
Sadly, my display (LG G1) does not provide peak luminance metadata in its EDID. I'm a bit surprised that Microsoft would ignore the possibility of missing monitor info in their docs - I guess they must be assuming VESA DisplayHDR-compliant PC monitors and don't care about TVs. I could override the EDID and let the player tone map, but I'm pretty satisfied with LG's built-in tonemapping.
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Old 18th November 2022, 00:09   #63674  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
It is, but in my experience it doesn't work (as in, the metadata isn't actually sent to the display). It does work in Windows 11. I haven't checked recently though.
No idea when you tested, but it certainly worked for the last year, which is about the time i've been using it, with a HDMI analyzer to confirm.

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That doesn't match my experience. madVR HDR passthrough works just fine on my Windows 11 setup.
As someone that has been trying to help users get stable HDR pass-through working for years, its a minefield at best.
The release version also has that fun bug where you need to shut down the player before you play SDR again (which maybe was fixed in one of the betas? but the timeout makes them impossible to use or even recommend).

After creating my own renderer based on libplacebo (the same backend library mpv uses for gpu-next), the topic has been much more reliable. And its open-source, which means I had D3D11 HDR pass-through in there for a while before we managed to get it all sorted for the upstream version.
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Old 18th November 2022, 02:05   #63675  |  Link
huhn
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that's my bug report and it is pretty old.
i don't have an AMD card connected to an HDR display anymore so i can not reproduce the issue anymore but there are still user talking about passthrough issue on win 11 using AMD if these are limited to old win 11 version or not is not for me to say.

could be absolutely fine could be broken or a random minefield on 20h2.
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Old 18th November 2022, 04:56   #63676  |  Link
Klaus1189
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@huhn: What setup do you have now?
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Old 18th November 2022, 12:41   #63677  |  Link
huhn
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the same as before the PC just switched places.
my current windows PCs are these two:
3700x with 1060 32 gb ram win 10
5600x with 5700 xt 32 gb ram win 11 20h2

the 5700 xt is most likely going to stay with me for much much longer.
the 1060 was supposed to be replace for 2 years now with a ~200 euro sub 150 watt HDMI 2.1 nvidia card which will not happen anytime soon. maybe a RDNA 3 time will tell. if the RX 6500 XT wouldn't use a 4x interface i may got myself one but that's a bad idea with madVR.
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Old 18th November 2022, 19:56   #63678  |  Link
Noobius
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Zoom black bars away seem to cause PC crash reboot, RTX 3070
MPC-BE
D3D11 full screen exclusive
Newest nvidia drivers
MadVR 0.92.17
Win10 64 bit
CPU I7-8700K

GPU temps seem fine, hardly 50% GPU utilization

Edit:
Could be associated with heavy processing settings and related GPU spiking.

Edit 2:

high quality settings + seeking => GPU power spiking

https://imgur.com/a/quddg7j

Could be then PSU not capable of handling the requested power draw?

I have a EVGA Supernova 750 G2, 80+ Gold 750W PSU - should be enough for RTX 3070

Last edited by Noobius; 19th November 2022 at 10:32.
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Old 18th November 2022, 20:33   #63679  |  Link
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What OS?
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Old 19th November 2022, 13:04   #63680  |  Link
Noobius
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Win 10 64 bit

So it isn't about zoom black bars away per se but I guess that functionality adds another taxing operation on top.

While having high quality upscaling & downscaling settings in place + seeking or e.g. loading a 2160p file causes spiking for the GPU leading to power spikes => crash.

EDIT:
LOL I have 3 PCs and the one with RTX 3070 installed has a BE QUIET 400W PSU not 750W

Last edited by Noobius; 19th November 2022 at 13:59.
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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