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Old 28th November 2016, 02:04   #40821  |  Link
JarrettH
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I don't know what you've done with the speed-ups, madshi, but this is a whole lot faster than 0.91.1. Even on 25 fps material, I don't have to change settings

I can use ngu-med (new medium) on 720p to 1080p and ngu-high (new high) with sd material on my GeForce 550 Ti

Last edited by JarrettH; 28th November 2016 at 02:07.
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Old 28th November 2016, 02:09   #40822  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Why no more old high + high quadrupling?
Current max quality doesn't look nice to me for quadrupling cartoons. I'd really like to be in charge how luma is scaled, any automatism is just a painful restriction...

Last edited by aufkrawall; 28th November 2016 at 02:12.
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Old 28th November 2016, 02:11   #40823  |  Link
bcec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
What does "Can't use" mean exactly? Maybe make a screenshot of the OSD (Ctrl+J) and a screenshot of your image upscaling settings page.
NNEDI3 crashes for me. I am doing NNEDI3-64 for 1080->2160 doubling
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Old 28th November 2016, 02:20   #40824  |  Link
bcec
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Does anyone observe their render times start with x ms, and then after 10 or so seconds jumps to x+(5 to 10)ms when using NGU? It then gradually comes back and settles around x + (3-6)ms. Same behavior regardless of the scene or starting point.

I observed similar behavior when thin edges from upscaling refinement was selected, and seeing that behavior for NGU now.
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Old 28th November 2016, 02:32   #40825  |  Link
MariaX9
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What is the difference between "image downscaling" and the "downscale quality" setting in image upscaling?

Also i cant select the very high setting in chroma upscaling, it always switches back to high.
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Old 28th November 2016, 02:36   #40826  |  Link
x7007
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Should I use

Chroma Upscaling - NGU Very High + SuperRes 3 ( Do I need SuperRes 3 when using NGU in Chroma Upscaling ) ?
Image upscaling NGU - Luma Very High , Chorma Quality - Auto , Downscale Quality - Auto , Activate only if it's useful
Upscaling Refi - All Disabled


*Also i cant select the very high setting in chroma upscaling, it always switches back to high. - Same happens to me
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Old 28th November 2016, 03:02   #40827  |  Link
Q-the-STORM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MariaX9 View Post
What is the difference between "image downscaling" and the "downscale quality" setting in image upscaling?

Also i cant select the very high setting in chroma upscaling, it always switches back to high.
image downscaling is for actually downscaling, like 2160p video on a 1080p display, or 1080p video in a 720p window.
downscale quality is for what downscaling algorithm is used after doubling, so for e.g. 720p on a 1080p display, it doubles to 1440p and then downscales to 1080p using what is set in downscale quality...
as for reverting to high, you can only use veryhigh if you use veryhigh for luma as well, you can't use high on luma and veryhigh on chroma... see 4. in my post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by x7007 View Post
Should I use
Chroma Upscaling - NGU Very High + SuperRes 3 ( Do I need SuperRes 3 when using NGU in Chroma Upscaling ) ?
Don't use Superres with NGU...




New settings look good, takes a bit to figure it out if you come from the old settings page, but it will definitely be a lot easier to get into it if you're a newbie....

1. Would be nice to still get a way to set low/med/high/veryhigh for the quadrupling step, for people that want stuff like high-high, though I do realize that would pretty much only be useful for GPUs that can't do veryhigh-med but can do high-high, so this might be a niche, which would complicate things again for normal users... maybe it's better the way it is now... on the other hand, being able to do high-low might be interesting for people that can't do high-med and would have to resort to med-low otherwise...
2. In image upscaling, it would be great if "chroma quality" and "downscale quality" would actually state what alogrithms are being used... sure you can enable it and check OSD, but it shouldn't be too much of an issue to have it say "chroma quality: high (NGU low + bicubic60 AR)"
3. What is "automatic" in qulaity settings? Dynamic depending on what other settings you use? if 2. is implemented, that would obviously answer this question, since you'd see which alogrithm is used every time, or does automatic not only change with
4. When luma high is selected, chorma veryhigh automatically reverts to high. Instead of automatically reverting, maybe display a message that it would be better to select higher luma quality than chroma. The way it is now feels like a bug.

Bug:
- with 720p -> 2160p on chroma quality normal OSD shows bicubic60 AR twice "chroma > bicubic60 AR > bicubic60 AR" shouldn't bicubic60 AR do this in one step? maybe just an OSD bug
this only happens with full 2160p, when I have a window resized to slightly smaller than 2160p, it only shows it once..
- not really a bug but maybe display the same message about superres and NGU when using NGU and superres in chroma upscaling

Last edited by Q-the-STORM; 28th November 2016 at 03:15.
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Old 28th November 2016, 03:13   #40828  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Thanks for the new version. Some thoughts...

- Chroma NGU-Very High isn't selectable
- Image Downscaling settings aren't used when using Image Upscaling with NGU?
- NGU Upscaling - Would like to be able to use "User" setting for downscale quality, which would use my User Specified settings in Image Downscaling. Also, please add Very High for downscale quality, which would probably use SSIM 2D100%
- Soften Edges 3 and Add Grain 4 provides the best image I've ever seen with madvr, especially when upscaling SD content. Soften Edges 3 completely removes the processed sharpness and Add Grain 4 makes the image look HD with its very fine grain structure. Enhance Details seems to further enhance the grain and make the image look sharper, but I prefer it off.
- Remove ringing artifacts is a must even with NGU. I was comparing a still of Futurama with it on and off and it removed the remaining ringing around the dark black line art.
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Old 28th November 2016, 03:14   #40829  |  Link
x7007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-the-STORM View Post
image downscaling is for actually downscaling, like 2160p video on a 1080p display, or 1080p video in a 720p window.
downscale quality is for what downscaling algorithm is used after doubling, so for e.g. 720p on a 1080p display, it doubles to 1440p and then downscales to 1080p using what is set in downscale quality...
as for reverting to high, you can only use veryhigh if you use veryhigh for luma as well, you can't use high on luma and veryhigh on chroma... see 4. in my post...


Don't use Superres with NGU...






New settings look good, takes a bit to figure it out if you come from the old settings page, but it will definitely be a lot easier to get into it if you're a newbie....

1. Would be nice to still get a way to set low/med/high/veryhigh for the quadrupling step, for people that want stuff like high-high, though I do realize that would pretty much only be useful for GPUs that can't do veryhigh-med but can do high-high, so this might be a niche, which would complicate things again for normal users... maybe it's better the way it is now...
2. In image upscaling, it would be great if "chroma quality" and "downscale quality" would actually state what alogrithms are being used... sure you can enable it and check OSD, but it shouldn't be too much of an issue to have it say "chroma quality: high (NGU low + bicubic60 AR)"
3. What is "automatic" in qulaity settings? Dynamic depending on what other settings you use? if 2. is implemented, that would obviously answer this question, since you'd see which alogrithm is used every time, or does automatic not only change with
4. When luma high is selected, chorma veryhigh automatically reverts to high. Instead of automatically reverting, maybe display a message that it would be better to select higher luma quality than chroma. The way it is now feels like a bug.

Bug:
- with 720p -> 2160p on chroma quality normal OSD shows bicubic60 AR twice "chroma > bicubic60 AR > bicubic60 AR" shouldn't bicubic60 AR do this in one step? maybe just an OSD bug
this only happens with full 2160p, when I have a window resized to slightly smaller than 2160p, it only shows it once..
- not really a bug but maybe display the same message about superres and NGU when using NGU and superres in chroma upscaling

i'm using all Very High and still can't select the Very High on Chroma Upscaling
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Old 28th November 2016, 03:30   #40830  |  Link
leeperry
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Thanks for the new version

Must admit I never understood the point to let us choose Jinc upscaling when doubling anyway, it's much clearer now.

But could you please make the NGU+SR nagscreen a one-timer and that's it? It currently shows up everytime I click on OK

Will run more tests tomorrow but yes so far it seems less confusing and no less efficient as far as I can tell so GG.

I still would like to be able to increase luma NGU and disable chroma NGU if need be, this currently seems impossible? I was doing it in the previous version and what's that new "downscale quality" setting exactly?

So doubling "downscale quality" is not related to what we picked in "image downscaling"? That's very confusing.

I would also like to have sxbr back please, sometimes its EE did the magic on low-res SD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
- Remove ringing artifacts is a must even with NGU. I was comparing a still of Futurama with it on and off and it removed the remaining ringing around the dark black line art.
That's one of the most dramatic filter in mVR to my eyes, turning it off just hurts my brain huh. I rest my case that my impression is that it repairs the ringing/fringing induced by camera optics and it looks so great with NGU

Last edited by leeperry; 28th November 2016 at 04:06.
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Old 28th November 2016, 05:27   #40831  |  Link
Sunset1982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp00kyFox View Post
@madshi
but could you explain to us what the logic is behind the NGU options "chroma/downscale quality: automatic" and "activate only if it's useful"? this is some information the power user probably wanna know, me included.
I would like to know that too.

What settings are behind the chroma quality and downscale quality options?

How do these image upscaling options interact / depend on the normal chroma upscaling / image downscaling options?



If I select SuperXBR with SR in the chroma upscale tab, I can't choose the SR strength anymore. Bug or feature?!
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Last edited by Sunset1982; 28th November 2016 at 05:30.
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Old 28th November 2016, 05:50   #40832  |  Link
JarrettH
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If you read the OSD and cycle the settings, you can see which scalers are being used.
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Old 28th November 2016, 06:04   #40833  |  Link
sauma144
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@madshi
1) Why not creating presets based on quality or performance for newcomers?
2) Is something like "sync playback to display" from Kodi planned for madVR?

Last edited by sauma144; 28th November 2016 at 06:15.
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Old 28th November 2016, 07:26   #40834  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
it was
NGU very high below nnedi3 64
NGU high below nnedi3 32
NGU mid below nnedi 16

doesn't count for polaris GPUs.
Based on my experiance and other user reports both Maxwell and Pascal also seem to be slower than expected. NGU very-high on my pascal Titan X, with v0.91.2, still has a performance hit similar to NNEDI3 128 instead of 64.

It is hard to say where the quality is equivalent, they look pretty different.

Edit: I quite like the new settings page, there is a lot less to setup and it is great to have downscaling after doubling be a separate option. Bicubic 60 too.
Automatic chroma and downscale quality seems to pick exactly what I would set, at least when not in a placebo mind set.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 28th November 2016 at 07:41.
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Old 28th November 2016, 08:05   #40835  |  Link
Backflash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
Sorry but NGU doesn't hold a candle to XBR-75 for image doubling. At least with the material I'm upscaling, which is generally medium-high quality SD, NGU on various settings (tried low and high) gives me way more artifacts and obvious artificial sharpening. I'd like to suggest adding Super-XBR back, it's a great image doubler.
I've been of same opinion, what you need to do is remove sharpeners superres, some antiblaot settings, everything in image enchantment and image refinement except add grain and maybe thin edges. And it looks without artifact and sharp enough.
NGU conflicts with a lot of things like that creating artifacts. Play with settings more.

Last edited by Backflash; 28th November 2016 at 08:21.
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Old 28th November 2016, 08:11   #40836  |  Link
Q-the-STORM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauma144 View Post
@madshi
1) Why not creating presets based on quality or performance for newcomers?
2) Is something like "sync playback to display" from Kodi planned for madVR?
1. madshi wanted to do that eventually, but to be honest, now that a bunch of algorithms have been dropped and performance of NGU is that good, there really is no need for presets... you only have a few options now and most people will simply be using NGU
2. that setting is also messing with audio, which madVR has nothing to do with... you can get the same result if you use 32bit madVR and reclock...
personally, I've always hoped that LAV would implement a slowdown/speedup feature, they would be able to slowdown/speedup audio and video and report the new framerate to the renderer... because that would mean every player that can use LAV would have a speedup/slowdown feature... would also mean I wouldn't have to keep around a 32bit player for PAL DVD content...

Last edited by Q-the-STORM; 28th November 2016 at 08:14.
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Old 28th November 2016, 08:52   #40837  |  Link
Backflash
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http://imgur.com/a/qyVl8

I lost ability to read OSD. high into med into "random" downscaler. Is it a bug? or am I confused about steps here?

"random downscaler issue": can we please leave it for downscaling tab domain?
or maybe add what settings mean inside brackets? high(ssim1d100 ar)
it has enough space I think, same with chroma
Only these two confused me, I guess they are great if you never saw previous UI.

In far future(because it's a pain to do) would be nice to have expert and novice mode.
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Old 28th November 2016, 08:54   #40838  |  Link
toniash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
sorry i don't see that working for DVDs.

edit: and very common 4/3 AR 16/9 broadcast shouldn't work too.
For low-end cards it will be very useful a NGU 1,5X for 720p -> 1080p
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Old 28th November 2016, 09:03   #40839  |  Link
flossy_cake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If you believe that using FreeSync/G-SYNC would be beneficial for video playback, you might be able to convince me to implement support for that by fulfilling the following 2 requirements:
1) Show me an API which allows me to define at which time in the future a specific video frame gets displayed, and for how long exactly.
Here's one example used by Frafs Test Pattern app (DX9). You can use the command line argument to select a fps limit to engage the hires timer and turn on the scrolling bar to check for dropped frames.

Source code of area where hires timer is implemented
https://sourceforge.net/p/frafstestp...ttern.cpp#l872
https://sourceforge.net/p/frafstestp...HiResTimer.cpp

Note: cpu usage is quite high with the hires timer (~15% CPU load ). I was able to eliminate it by adding a 1ms sleep on line 916 of FrafsTestPattern.cpp.

Also
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
2) Donate a FreeSync/G-SYNC monitor to me, so that I can actually test a possible implementation. Developing blindly without test hardware doesn't make sense.
I hope someone sees that and does. Unfortunately I am broke after getting mine

Since it already works in MPC-HCx64 + MadVR + DX11 disabled + Full Screen Exclusive Mode + SVPTube , is it possible to just have a "windowed exclusive mode"? I have tried setting a hotkey to toggle exclusive on/off while in windowed mode but no effect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
What Freesync/G-Sync will do is just multiply framerate to minimize judder, there will still most likely be judder.
Absolutely not! And why would you think there would be judder? For each 1fps increase or decrease the monitor is matching a perfect 1:1 cadence for that fps. The zig zag line does not mean "this zone is judder", its just showing which multiple of refresh rate is used. As long as it's an exact multiple the cadence will remain 1:1 and no judder or jitter is seen. In practical testing I can assure you that it is seamless even at low frame rates
http://testufo.com/#test=stutter&dem...max=12&pps=720


Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
If you don't match them exactly (such as in your example), you get presentation jitter, and that's bad.
I think you are making an assumption about frame time deltas of 33.4ms (1 dropped frame at 60hz) and trying to apply that to a delta of +/- 5-10ms, which proves you don't own one of these variable monitors because if you did then you would already know that in D3D applications while the fps/hz meter is fluctuating up and down all over the place the motion is still seamless because the inter-frame delta is still much much lower than 1 dropped frame at 60hz. You are still thinking about everything snapping to the nearest 16.7ms which is not the case here. A rapid rise from say 24-90 in gsync will still have an average inter-frame delta that is very low and nowhere near the 33.4ms caused by 1 dropped frame at 60hz.

I would urge you to actually see or use one of these monitors at rapidly varying refresh rates before making judgement based on theory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
Windows is not a real-time OS, so there are no guarantees that madVR will be able to make that call at the appropriate time.
Of course there are no guarantees. At the end of the day the CPU is still running the application regardless of the scenario and relies on not being interrupted by other processes. If the vsync implementation is done by the CPU (such as waiting for a vsync signal) then it will be vulnerable to the same problem if some other process interrupts it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
I think you misunderstood my point. My point was, most people who are in this case (i.e. take the time to learn how to use madVR, worry about cadence…) do not typically use gaming monitors to play their videos on. Instead they use large HDTVs or projection systems, which don't support G-Sync. It's a bit weird to spend all this time getting to the perfect playback system only to use it on a 28" gamer-optimized panel just because it has G-Sync. I'm sure there are people in this case, but it's a very small niche, even among madVR users.
I use it mostly for watching youtube which is primarily a PC activity. The picture quality is just so much better with the edge enhancement, dithering and scaling algorithms etc. plus the colour space is wrong in Chrome (oranges are more red/crimson).

Having to change monitor modes for each video file or youtube video is an annoyance and many monitors don't support the necessary modes (24hz and 50hz which I use quite a lot , most European motorsports broadcasts) which forces me to use the artificial smoothing algorithm at 144hz which is kind of a patch solution, but works quite well actually and full credit to Madshi there .

But Alt+Enter and I get 50hz gsync, perfectly smooth motion without any tricks thus proving gsync is doable and has no significant technical limitations in this application therefore everything you said about it being impossible to do smoothly is untrue because I've seen it with my own eyes (and in games with external FPS limiter RivaTuner )

Last edited by flossy_cake; 28th November 2016 at 09:25.
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Old 28th November 2016, 09:24   #40840  |  Link
ryrynz
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0.91.2 is making some of my profiles disappear and saying there's an error in the rules because it can't find the profile.
Reverting back to 0.91.1 resolves it. Will post more info later if required, no time ATM.
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