mkvtoolnix 4.1.1 released

[Thunderbolt8]

would it be possible to see support for the new HD DVD / blue-ray audio tracks, namely trueHD and dts-hd in the future?

[madshi]

@Mosu: I know all the dirty details you'd need for DTS-HD High Resolution and DTS-HD Master Audio (how to detect them etc). If you're willing to implement support for that, that'd be great! Please PM me, if you're interested in getting that information from me.

To be honest, I'm not sure if TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio are really all that important because we can now reencode them losslessly to FLAC. However, DTS-HD High Resolution support would be quite nice to have.

[Thunderbolt8]

from what I heard flac is not compatible to standalone receivers, it can only be used PC related in terms that you can only connect the final output with your speakers, but not to an additional receiver (at least when I understood it correctly). so its good to be able to use the full potential of those tracks currently as flac files. but for the future, when trueHD receivers and alikes become more frequent and cheaper I think for home cinema fans with really good equipment it would be great if they could use their additional non-pc surround hardware then with the original tracks and therefore to be able to mux these tracks into the .mkv

[madshi]

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8

from what I heard flac is not compatible to standalone receivers, it can only be used PC related in terms that you can only connect the final output with your speakers, but not to an additional receiver (at least when I understood it correctly). so its good to be able to use the full potential of those tracks currently as flac files. but for the future, when trueHD receivers and alikes become more frequent and cheaper I think for home cinema fans with really good equipment it would be great if they could use their additional non-pc surround hardware then with the original tracks and therefore to be able to mux these tracks into the .mkv

You heard wrong. FLAC is not limited to PC. Most of the media player boxes out there (e.g. Tvix 5100 etc) support FLAC. They can output it over analog output or (decoded to multichannel PCM) over HDMI 1.1. Every receiver that accepts multichannel PCM over HDMI should handle that just fine.

Yes, but I'm not aware of any PC video/soundcard that transports 5-7 channel PCM (fed from a Windows app) over HDMI, so it's still of limited use. Last news I heard is that manufacturers won't be rolling out this feature in the mid-term because of "licensing" (read: DRM) issues.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by honai

Yes, but I'm not aware of any PC video/soundcard that transports 5-7 channel PCM (fed from a Windows app) over HDMI, so it's still of limited use. Last news I heard is that manufacturers won't be rolling out this feature in the mid-term because of "licensing" (read: DRM) issues.

HDMI 1.3 bitstream will not come any sooner to HTPC than multichannel PCM. So that's no argument pro TrueHD/DTS-HD. Currently FLAC has an advantage over TrueHD/DTS-HD because it's already supported on HTPC and also by many external media players, while TrueHD/DTS-HD is still difficult to decode perfectly on HTPC and is not supported by *any* external media player yet. I don't really see any argument in favor of TrueHD/DTS-HD MA, unless you want to burn movies to Blu-Ray/HD DVD disc.

Currently FLAC has an advantage over TrueHD/DTS-HD because it's already supported on HTPC

It's only "supported" in a sense that it can be losslessly decoded, but must be *lossy* encoded to AC3 (via ffdshow or AC3Filter) or DTS (on some DTS Connect soundcards) in order to be played back on a receiver - which is what most HD enthusiasts do, anyway. Transport over 5+1 analog cinch cables makes no sense because no matter how clean the copper, you'll lose audio quality.

while TrueHD/DTS-HD is still difficult to decode perfectly on HTPC and is not supported by *any* external media player yet

But TrueHD/DTS-HD is being supported by a growing number of inexpensive external audio receivers, while I didn't hear of any receiver yet that supports FLAC over HDMI.

The point I'm trying to make is that in 1-2 years lots of hardware will do realtime decoding or native transport of TrueHD/DTS-HD, but due to the lack of industry lobbying we won't see that kind of support for FLAC. And as I wrote above, FLAC to PCM over HDMI is going nowhere any time soon because we won't have PC hardware for raw PCM transport from arbitrary sources.

And all TrueHD/DTS-HD -> PCM over HDMI solutions so far only work on a protected audio/video path, so you can't just inject your FLAC -> PCM solution there.

[madshi]

@honai, can you please tell me a specific scenario in which TrueHD would have advantages over FLAC? I mean what kind of source device are you thinking about (HTPC or external media player box or something else)? What kind of connection (HDMI 1.1 or HDMI 1.3 or something else) and what kind of receiver (decoding capabilities etc)? Just tell me one example. The best one that comes to your mind.

I'm not sure I understand the question. But take this scenario:

* PC with software HD-DVD/Blu-ray player
* HDMI video card that does also transport of HD audio over HDMI
* a/v receiver with HDMI that decodes TrueHD (e.g. Pioneer VSX-91)

Bit-perfect transport of audio until the final decoding stage for speaker output.

How would you achieve that with FLAC? You can't, and I don't see it happening in the next few years. Bit-perfect FLAC transport over digital connections to the final decoding stage just isn't possible.

[foxyshadis]

What is the use of it if you can just losslessly re-encode back to one of these formats if a card or directshow filter supporting them ever does appear? Better to have something that plays right now than something that might play next year.

And since no video card supports multichannel pcm to the receiver right now anyway, it's all a moot point. When the chain is complete, you could translate anything back to TrueHD or Master Audio on the fly the same way we currently can for AC3, although it might use another percentage point or two of cpu.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by honai

I'm not sure I understand the question. But take this scenario:

* PC with software HD-DVD/Blu-ray player
* HDMI video card that does also transport of HD audio over HDMI
* a/v receiver with HDMI that decodes TrueHD (e.g. Pioneer VSX-91)

Bit-perfect transport of audio until the final decoding stage for speaker output.

How would you achieve that with FLAC? You can't, and I don't see it happening in the next few years. Bit-perfect FLAC transport over digital connections to the final decoding stage just isn't possible.

Your example would only work if both video card and receiver have HDMI 1.3. If they have HDMI 1.3 they will also support multichannel PCM transport. So FLAC can be decoded by the PC and sent as multichannel PCM to the receiver. This *is* bit perfect transport over digital connection. It doesn't matter if you transport bitstream or PCM. Audio quality is identical. So in your example FLAC has no disadvantage compared to TrueHD.

If they have HDMI 1.3 they will also support multichannel PCM transport.

No, not in a generic way. So far all announced solutions only work on protected audio and video paths, i.e. bit-perfect transport is only enabled for certified players like PowerDVD and WinDVD which pass the audio stream directly to a DRMed a/v driver. So this will *not* work for FLAC tracks.

So in your example FLAC has no disadvantage compared to TrueHD.

It does because FLAC is not supported by any HD disc standard, and that's the only source that will be transported over HDMI 1.3 by the two major HD disc software player manufacturers.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by honai

No, not in a generic way. So far all announced solutions only work on protected audio and video paths, i.e. bit-perfect transport is only enabled for certified players like PowerDVD and WinDVD which pass the audio stream directly to a DRMed a/v driver. So this will *not* work for FLAC tracks.

I've no idea what you mean. What "announced solutions" are you talking about?

Originally Posted by honai

It does because FLAC is not supported by any HD disc standard, and that's the only source that will be transported over HDMI 1.3 by the two major HD disc software player manufacturers.

So you're claiming that PowerDVD and WinDVD will support TrueHD bitstream transport but not multichannel PCM transport? Can you please back this claim up? Because I think you're totally wrong here.

I've no idea what you mean. What "announced solutions" are you talking about?

For example, video cards with nVidia chips that provide HDMI 1.3, i.e. a/v transport over HDMI. These have a protected BIOS (using public/private key cryptography), and only players signed against that BIOS will be able to send HD audio/video over the HDMI connection.

So you're claiming that PowerDVD and WinDVD will support TrueHD bitstream transport but not multichannel PCM transport?

No. I'm saying that PowerDVD and WinDVD can certify to the protected video path that they're secure, and they can honor the DRM flags in the source. So if you're playing a DRMed HD disc with either TrueHD or PCM over HDMI it will work, but it won't for arbitrary PCM streams. PCM over HDMI is not something that is "just there" in the system. You need a specific player software, a specific driver setup, and a specfic video card BIOS (because HD audio over HDMI is routed through the video card) for all of this to work.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by honai

For example, video cards with nVidia chips that provide HDMI 1.3, i.e. a/v transport over HDMI. These have a protected BIOS (using public/private key cryptography), and only players signed against that BIOS will be able to send HD audio/video over the HDMI connection.

Do you have a link? I think you have that backwards. It would be a big step down for any nVidia card user if people couldn't even output unprotected movies over HDMI (and that's what you're claiming). E.g. all the Microsoft VC-1 demos you can download from Microsoft's homepage wouldn't play. No recorded HDTV broadcast would play. That simply cannot be true.

That's not what I intended to express. Let me clarify:

For example, video cards with nVidia chips that provide HDMI 1.3, i.e. a/v transport over HDMI. These have a protected BIOS (using public/private key cryptography), and only players signed against that BIOS will be able to send HD audio/video from HD-DVD/Blu-ray discs over the HDMI connection.

In other words, of course you can send arbitrary video over HDMI (i.e. the DVI part of it), but if I recall correctly the current implementations of HDMI 1.3 on video cards don't provide a system-wide audio driver at all, i.e. you won't be able to send arbitrary audio samples over HDMI at all - unless you run a specific player which directly communicates with the (nVidia) video card protected BIOS, in which case you *can* send TrueHD/PCM over HDMI.

[Thunderbolt8]

another thing, it would also be great if .evo and . m2ts container as input could be supported!

[madshi]

Originally Posted by honai

For example, video cards with nVidia chips that provide HDMI 1.3, i.e. a/v transport over HDMI. These have a protected BIOS (using public/private key cryptography), and only players signed against that BIOS will be able to send HD audio/video from HD-DVD/Blu-ray discs over the HDMI connection.

In other words, of course you can send arbitrary video over HDMI (i.e. the DVI part of it), but if I recall correctly the current implementations of HDMI 1.3 on video cards don't provide a system-wide audio driver at all, i.e. you won't be able to send arbitrary audio samples over HDMI at all - unless you run a specific player which directly communicates with the (nVidia) video card protected BIOS, in which case you *can* send TrueHD/PCM over HDMI.

You're wrong. The video cards do provide a system-wide audio driver. At least the ATI cards do. And it can be used from MPC.

You're wrong. The video cards do provide a system-wide audio driver.

A system-wide audio driver that acts as a renderer and actually transports multi-channel PCM over HDMI? Do you have documentation for that or screenshots?

[madshi]

Originally Posted by honai

A system-wide audio driver that acts as a renderer and actually transports multi-channel PCM over HDMI? Do you have documentation for that or screenshots?

I didn't say that it transports multichannel PCM over HDMI. Right now it seems that it only supports multichannel AC3 transport or 2 channel PCM transport. But it does seem to be an audio "target" you can speak to from a normal media player. You can check out the ATI 2x00 owners thread on avsforum. They're discussing it there. Search for "PCM" in that thread.